"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[BWri]

Exactly this. Why do you think the flawed writing is going to become better by going to another Universe?

I get the sentiment, but U7 has a lot of baggage. The best thing we got for it lately is a recycled movie Saiyan who probably shouldn't be as strong as he is, a recycled nostalgic villain who probably shouldn't be as strong as he is, an ancient space wizard who consumes worlds (a good call), and now a random mercenary who wished to be the strongest. Outside of Moro, we seem to be scraping the jar for content in universe 7.

It doesn't have to be this way, but with each scenario we only explore the surface level and some scenarios (such as Frieza's return) are only surface level. It's true that it could be the same in other universes, but at least there's more room for new things untouched by Frieza's empire, Buu's rampage, or the Galactic Patrol.

What motivation would they have to just up and leave their family in another universe and go venture off into another one just for shits and giggles?

Same as now, threats and/or fighting/training opportunities. They seem to take weekly or even monthly sojourns from home anyway when training with Whis. As long as Whis can take them back when all is said and done, I don't see why they wouldn't want to go. Goku's already gone on several multidimensional trips with Beerus and Whis.

[Professor Freeza]

Anyone else thinks a GoD Freeza would be extremely scary?

Like if a GoD power increases as his will to fight increases [as beerus said, limitless], which means the factor is only durability. The more durable you are, the more damage you can absorb, the stronger you get.

Freeza's durability is still unmatched, by a mile. He'd literally have limitless power.

[Mister_Popo]

Was i the only one thinking 'WTF' while reading this chapter?
The (anime) Tournament of Power arc has been criticized for a 'thin plotline', but to be honest, it wasn't even half as bad as how it was portrayed back then, compared to what we're presented with now. On the contrary, I thought that a number of very interesting ideas were made there that are not being worked on at all now. The Moro arc for my taste was simply 'safe zoned' and 'fanserviced' to a great extent. But what's happening here just doesn't make much sense directo mundo. In a very painful way.
I have a feeling of 'they just do whatever'.

Some serious considerations:

- Vegeta gets an immense power-up, but with what meaning? At least MUI was somehow thoughtfully explained.
Vegeta pulls out a form that calls back to the Destroyer Form tied to the Gods of Destruction. But as it turns out, this form has nothing to do with that power. What is the logical connection between 'Ultra Ego' and the 'destructive power of the gods'. I hope, but with a good chance that this is a vain hope, that an explanation will still be given. No, not everything has to be explained in great detail as far as I'm concerned, but here is really a serious hair in the butter in my opinion.

- Although Vegeta seems to get 'power-ups' at first due to taking plenty of blows, in the end it doesn't anymore, and he is just swept away by Granolah like a birch leaf in the autumn wind. A concept that in itself is not entirely correct (see point 1) is thereby made even more illogical.

- The plot seems to be blown forward by antagonists who are especially menaced by… the Dragon Balls? It does call it 'Dragon Ball', but how many times have we seen that in Super that the antagonists actually 'wish' themselves to almost unbeatable levels (Zamasu, Moro...). We actually have this all the way through seen the weeping in Super? We've already seen it again 1 time with Granolah, and now we're going to see it again with the Heaters, who will once again wish themselves immortality or immeasurable powers? In any case, it will get a deux-ex machine-like flavor again, we have earned that for a change?

- It's already been mentioned, but it doesn't make sense that Granolah gets a power-up here, when he should already be at his maximum by his wish? The way in which ... By also removing the only interesting and above all unique aspect of his design, that one eye has a different color than the others. This is not a 'minor issue' within this chapter. This, something that makes little sense, ensures that Vegeta's bombastically illogical power-up is immediately swept off the table in the most illogical way imaginable.

It could be that I'm wrong, and that there's another mega plot twist coming or that these things will still be explained masterfully, making the story really worthwile, but judging by the Moro arc, I'm a bit afraid of that. Toriyama himself will probably also be busy with the film, so I'm a bit afraid that not much more will come of this. It kind of feels like he's letting it ripple further.

Give me our good old anime from TOEI then.
How that a sizzling Zamasu-arc wrote them together (besides the finale perhaps), I haven't seen that in the manga in the après Broly era. Sorry guys, but this is pretty cheap entertainment for the moment. So much potential has been created in the first half of Super, with the new worlds being created, but nothing is being done about it. Why should it, if everyone in U7 can simply wish themselves to become a MUI- or UE-slaughterer?

My (vain) hope is that the film will breathe some new life back into this franchise. But one always has to speak with two words when it comes to DB and high expectations, right? My once so innocent nostalgic soul had to experience this to great scissors and shame.

[DiscountDabi]

- Vegeta gets an immense power-up, but with what meaning? At least MUI was somehow thoughtfully explained.
Vegeta pulls out a form that calls back to the Destroyer Form tied to the Gods of Destruction. But as it turns out, this form has nothing to do with that power. What is the logical connection between 'Ultra Ego' and the 'destructive power of the gods'. I hope, but with a good chance that this is a vain hope, that an explanation will still be given. No, not everything has to be explained in great detail as far as I'm concerned, but here is really a serious hair in the butter in my opinion.

While I agree it should be explained to an extent more in the story, I think this tweet right here sums up the General Idea of Ultra Ego in relation to Vegeta as a character, and how it relates to Beerus and Ultra Instinct. If anything else its very interesting and quite worth the read: https://twitter.com/GalacticMj/status/1 ... 19177?s=20

- It's already been mentioned, but it doesn't make sense that Granolah gets a power-up here, when he should already be at his maximum by his wish? The way in which ... By also removing the only interesting and above all unique aspect of his design, that one eye has a different color than the others. This is not a 'minor issue' within this chapter. This, something that makes little sense, ensures that Vegeta's bombastically illogical power-up is immediately swept off the table in the most illogical way imaginable.

Not necessarrily. Think of it like a Goku Black or Ginyu situation. Granolah up to this point used the power he was intitially aware of, and in fighting Vegeta he as able to become more experienced and tap into power he didn't even know he had. And in the end with the double eye its not simply a power up. Its Granolah's vison improving which will allow him to outskill Vegeta next chapter.

Other than that, I would take a queue from TotallyNotMark and wait for the Arc to end before making any definite decisions.

[HeroR]

I Was discussing how this chapter made me feel about Vegeta, and while he didn't do as bad as I though it still bothered me because I know Goku is just gonna come in and win. And someone tried to argue that "Well Goku got taken out of the fight too. Its not like he's just gonna get up and wail on Granolah."

Well lets take a look at the track record

Goku fights beerus and loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done, before Goku comes in to steal the spotlight
Goku fights Frieza and loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done, before Goku comes in and steals the spotlight
Goku fights Jiren and Loses,Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done, before Goku comes in and steals the spotlight
Goku fights Moro and loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done before Goku comes in and steals the spotlight
Goku fights Granolah and Loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done...

Do you see the pattern here? The only arc that didn't go this way was the Goku Black arc. And thats only because the ending was WORSE.

Its just so predictable and bothersome.

I hate the ‘Goku steals the spotlight’ narrative. Goku along with Whis saved Vegeta’s life in Resurrection ‘F’, but people want Vegeta to win so much that they rather have him and the Earth die as long as Goku doesn’t win. And the only reason Vegeta even got a turn was because Goku got shot by a laser. Goku also busted his balls to beat Jiren in comparison to Jiren and he still only succeed because of Frieza and 17. Goku also didn’t win against Beerus. They were only spared because Beerus showed mercy.

And even if we ignore Zamasu after he lost his body, Trunks would be the hero.

[TheNingen]

I Was discussing how this chapter made me feel about Vegeta, and while he didn't do as bad as I though it still bothered me because I know Goku is just gonna come in and win. And someone tried to argue that "Well Goku got taken out of the fight too. Its not like he's just gonna get up and wail on Granolah."

Well lets take a look at the track record

Goku fights beerus and loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done, before Goku comes in to steal the spotlight
Goku fights Frieza and loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done, before Goku comes in and steals the spotlight
Goku fights Jiren and Loses,Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done, before Goku comes in and steals the spotlight
Goku fights Moro and loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done before Goku comes in and steals the spotlight
Goku fights Granolah and Loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done...

Do you see the pattern here? The only arc that didn't go this way was the Goku Black arc. And thats only because the ending was WORSE.

Its just so predictable and bothersome.

I hate the ‘Goku steals the spotlight’ narrative. Goku along with Whis saved Vegeta’s life in Resurrection ‘F’, but people want Vegeta to win so much that they rather have him and the Earth die as long as Goku doesn’t win. And the only reason Vegeta even got a turn was because Goku got shot by a laser. Goku also busted his balls to beat Jiren in comparison to Jiren and he still only succeed because of Frieza and 17. Goku also didn’t win against Beerus. They were only spared because Beerus showed mercy.

And even if we ignore Zamasu after he lost his body, Trunks would be the hero.

Yes. Everyone's always like 'ZOMG GOKU ALWAYS WINS!!" Except...no. No he doesn't. As you mentioned, he didn't beat Beerus. Without Whis, he wouldn't have beaten Freeza. Without Freeza, 17, AND Vegeta, he wouldn't have beaten Jiren. And he didn't beat Moro alone either. Uub and Vegeta helped him.

The 'Goku steals the spotlight narrative' is almost as annoying as fans jumping the gun when leaks are seen and I'm really getting sick of it. If there is any narrative or motif Super is using and pushing, it is not "Goku is super awesome and gets everything done" it has been "Everyone working together is what saves the day." IE "Trust and teamwork saves the day." There is literally not a single fight in Super that Goku has won by himself. Hell, Goku hasn't even won a fight on his own since Freeza. I'm really getting sick of the Goku libel.

If there is anything I'm getting tired of in Super, it's that the antagonists or foes are really fucking boring. I don't know if it IS Toyataro's writing, or if it's Toriyama's writing, but every antagonist after Beerus has been super boring or bland. Super Freeza is most interesting in the ToP, and even Broly, but in Res F? Boring.

Moro? Boring and generic. And his arc doesn't help that it suffers from "So much is happening but nothing is happening" (as someone wrote earlier) Granolah? He's just another generic avenger like Sasuke. He lost all his people so he's dedicated his life to revenge and everyone who cares about him, he's disregarding in his search for power and abandoning his allies for the sake of revenge. We've seen it done.

I'm not expecting Dragon Ball to be Shakespeare. And I love Dragon Ball, but most of modern Dragon Ball has been about recycling it's own plots with not a lot of thematic through lines that give depth to the characters. How many times has the plot point "True strength is earned. Not given" been used? We JUST had this plot beat with Moro and now we're once again using it with Granolah, and soon enough, probably Gas.

I love Dragon Ball. I will always love Dragon Ball. And I'm kinda glad that Super Hero is looking like it's a goofy slice of life character driven thing with the action and fights taking a backseat. It's always seemed like Toriyama is more into it and engaged when he's doing gag manga stuff and letting the characters breathe and have fun. But I digress.

[HeroR]

I Was discussing how this chapter made me feel about Vegeta, and while he didn't do as bad as I though it still bothered me because I know Goku is just gonna come in and win. And someone tried to argue that "Well Goku got taken out of the fight too. Its not like he's just gonna get up and wail on Granolah."

Well lets take a look at the track record

Goku fights beerus and loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done, before Goku comes in to steal the spotlight
Goku fights Frieza and loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done, before Goku comes in and steals the spotlight
Goku fights Jiren and Loses,Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done, before Goku comes in and steals the spotlight
Goku fights Moro and loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done before Goku comes in and steals the spotlight
Goku fights Granolah and Loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done...

Do you see the pattern here? The only arc that didn't go this way was the Goku Black arc. And thats only because the ending was WORSE.

Its just so predictable and bothersome.

I hate the ‘Goku steals the spotlight’ narrative. Goku along with Whis saved Vegeta’s life in Resurrection ‘F’, but people want Vegeta to win so much that they rather have him and the Earth die as long as Goku doesn’t win. And the only reason Vegeta even got a turn was because Goku got shot by a laser. Goku also busted his balls to beat Jiren in comparison to Jiren and he still only succeed because of Frieza and 17. Goku also didn’t win against Beerus. They were only spared because Beerus showed mercy.

And even if we ignore Zamasu after he lost his body, Trunks would be the hero.

Yes. Everyone's always like 'ZOMG GOKU ALWAYS WINS!!" Except...no. No he doesn't. As you mentioned, he didn't beat Beerus. Without Whis, he wouldn't have beaten Freeza. Without Freeza, 17, AND Vegeta, he wouldn't have beaten Jiren. And he didn't beat Moro alone either. Uub and Vegeta helped him.

The 'Goku steals the spotlight narrative' is almost as annoying as fans jumping the gun when leaks are seen and I'm really getting sick of it. If there is any narrative or motif Super is using and pushing, it is not "Goku is super awesome and gets everything done" it has been "Everyone working together is what saves the day." IE "Trust and teamwork saves the day." There is literally not a single fight in Super that Goku has won by himself. Hell, Goku hasn't even won a fight on his own since Freeza. I'm really getting sick of the Goku libel.

If there is anything I'm getting tired of in Super, it's that the antagonists or foes are really fucking boring. I don't know if it IS Toyataro's writing, or if it's Toriyama's writing, but every antagonist after Beerus has been super boring or bland. Super Freeza is most interesting in the ToP, and even Broly, but in Res F? Boring.

Moro? Boring and generic. And his arc doesn't help that it suffers from "So much is happening but nothing is happening" (as someone wrote earlier) Granolah? He's just another generic avenger like Sasuke. He lost all his people so he's dedicated his life to revenge and everyone who cares about him, he's disregarding in his search for power and abandoning his allies for the sake of revenge. We've seen it done.

I'm not expecting Dragon Ball to be Shakespeare. And I love Dragon Ball, but most of modern Dragon Ball has been about recycling it's own plots with not a lot of thematic through lines that give depth to the characters. How many times has the plot point "True strength is earned. Not given" been used? We JUST had this plot beat with Moro and now we're once again using it with Granolah, and soon enough, probably Gas.

I love Dragon Ball. I will always love Dragon Ball. And I'm kinda glad that Super Hero is looking like it's a goofy slice of life character driven thing with the action and fights taking a backseat. It's always seemed like Toriyama is more into it and engaged when he's doing gag manga stuff and letting the characters breathe and have fun. But I digress.

I personally don't considered Champa, Hit, Black, Zamasu, and Fusion Zamasu boring. I can get if you don't like them, but I actually never seen anyone accused them of being boring. Zamasu and Black are so meme-able that he has several videos with them just saying ningen. Resurrection 'F' Frieza is interesting to me is because he learned a lot from what happened on Namek and then somehow still made the same mistakes.

Jiren, I can understand why people call him dull, but I personally don't mind Jiren since he's pretty much Goku without the Dragon Balls to fix his mistakes and if he become completely fight obsessed to the point of becoming a loner.

"True strength is earned. Not given" been used?

That theme so far has only really been used twice in the manga, three if you want to count Black. But Black being a cheat wasn't the main theme of the Future Trunks Saga. Hit, Jiren, and Broly earned their power even if you say Broly was born strong.

For the most part, the pressing theme of Dragon Ball Super has been: Teamwork is better than working alone.

Goku got Super Saiyan God because of his friends and family even if he hated it. Frieza would have been no threat at all if Goku and Vegeta worked together. Black and Zamasu were so powerful because they worked so well together and it took a team effect to take him down and it was Goku making friends with Present Zeno that destroyed Infinite Zamasu. The TOP was all about trust and teamwork to the point that the effects of U7 together took down a foe who surpassed the gods. Goku and Vegeta teaming up and fusing took down Broly. Even the Moro arc had the teamwork element that in the end, even with a fully powered UI, it took a team to stop Planet Moro and it was a team effect that finally allowed Goku to control UI.

[DiscountDabi]

I Was discussing how this chapter made me feel about Vegeta, and while he didn't do as bad as I though it still bothered me because I know Goku is just gonna come in and win. And someone tried to argue that "Well Goku got taken out of the fight too. Its not like he's just gonna get up and wail on Granolah."

Well lets take a look at the track record

Goku fights beerus and loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done, before Goku comes in to steal the spotlight
Goku fights Frieza and loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done, before Goku comes in and steals the spotlight
Goku fights Jiren and Loses,Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done, before Goku comes in and steals the spotlight
Goku fights Moro and loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done before Goku comes in and steals the spotlight
Goku fights Granolah and Loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done...

Do you see the pattern here? The only arc that didn't go this way was the Goku Black arc. And thats only because the ending was WORSE.

Its just so predictable and bothersome.

I hate the ‘Goku steals the spotlight’ narrative. Goku along with Whis saved Vegeta’s life in Resurrection ‘F’, but people want Vegeta to win so much that they rather have him and the Earth die as long as Goku doesn’t win. And the only reason Vegeta even got a turn was because Goku got shot by a laser. Goku also busted his balls to beat Jiren in comparison to Jiren and he still only succeed because of Frieza and 17. Goku also didn’t win against Beerus. They were only spared because Beerus showed mercy.

And even if we ignore Zamasu after he lost his body, Trunks would be the hero.

Yes. Everyone's always like 'ZOMG GOKU ALWAYS WINS!!" Except...no. No he doesn't. As you mentioned, he didn't beat Beerus. Without Whis, he wouldn't have beaten Freeza. Without Freeza, 17, AND Vegeta, he wouldn't have beaten Jiren. And he didn't beat Moro alone either. Uub and Vegeta helped him.

The 'Goku steals the spotlight narrative' is almost as annoying as fans jumping the gun when leaks are seen and I'm really getting sick of it. If there is any narrative or motif Super is using and pushing, it is not "Goku is super awesome and gets everything done" it has been "Everyone working together is what saves the day." IE "Trust and teamwork saves the day." There is literally not a single fight in Super that Goku has won by himself. Hell, Goku hasn't even won a fight on his own since Freeza. I'm really getting sick of the Goku libel.

You know what the difference is? When was the last time Goku was straight up embarrased in a fight. I don't just mean defeated. I mean he's humiliated and treated like a Joke. Never, right? Thats the difference. Goku may loose but he's still treated with respect. I mean Goku lost to Granolah 2 chapters ago and now he's just roaming the woods waiting for Vegeta to lose.

Vegeta in the Moro arc failed to beat Moro with his training and was layed flat on his ass and bodied with his own Technique, which Moro mocked calling it a Basic Ki Blast.

Goku has never been just disrespected as a character like that. And you may say "Well thats because he's the main character." But in the other big Manga this kind of stuff doesn't happen. You ever see Zoro get defeated and treated like Trash? You ever see Bakugou tossed away like Trash so the Bad guy can fight Deku? No, because they have a respect for their characters that Toriyama clearly doesn't have for Vegeta or many of the other characters like Piccolo or Gohan.

[HeroR]

I hate the ‘Goku steals the spotlight’ narrative. Goku along with Whis saved Vegeta’s life in Resurrection ‘F’, but people want Vegeta to win so much that they rather have him and the Earth die as long as Goku doesn’t win. And the only reason Vegeta even got a turn was because Goku got shot by a laser. Goku also busted his balls to beat Jiren in comparison to Jiren and he still only succeed because of Frieza and 17. Goku also didn’t win against Beerus. They were only spared because Beerus showed mercy.

And even if we ignore Zamasu after he lost his body, Trunks would be the hero.

Yes. Everyone's always like 'ZOMG GOKU ALWAYS WINS!!" Except...no. No he doesn't. As you mentioned, he didn't beat Beerus. Without Whis, he wouldn't have beaten Freeza. Without Freeza, 17, AND Vegeta, he wouldn't have beaten Jiren. And he didn't beat Moro alone either. Uub and Vegeta helped him.

The 'Goku steals the spotlight narrative' is almost as annoying as fans jumping the gun when leaks are seen and I'm really getting sick of it. If there is any narrative or motif Super is using and pushing, it is not "Goku is super awesome and gets everything done" it has been "Everyone working together is what saves the day." IE "Trust and teamwork saves the day." There is literally not a single fight in Super that Goku has won by himself. Hell, Goku hasn't even won a fight on his own since Freeza. I'm really getting sick of the Goku libel.

You know what the difference is? When was the last time Goku was straight up embarrased in a fight. I don't just mean defeated. I mean he's humiliated and treated like a Joke. Never, right? Thats the difference. Goku may loose but he's still treated with respect. I mean Goku lost to Granolah 2 chapters ago and now he's just roaming the woods waiting for Vegeta to lose.

Vegeta in the Moro arc failed to beat Moro with his training and was layed flat on his ass and bodied with his own Technique, which Moro mocked calling it a Basic Ki Blast.

Goku has never been just disrespected as a character like that. And you may say "Well thats because he's the main character." But in the other big Manga this kind of stuff doesn't happen. You ever see Zoro get defeated and treated like Trash? You ever see Bakugou tossed away like Trash so the Bad guy can fight Deku? No, because they have a respect for their characters that Toriyama clearly doesn't have for Vegeta or many of the other characters like Piccolo or Gohan.

Resurrection 'F' when a laser took him out from a lowly mook. That wasn't a respectable way to lose. Followed by everyone calling Goku an idiot, rightfully so.

Battle of Gods, where Beerus two touched him and laid him shit face on the ground with King Kai calling him a moron because he brought it all on himself.

And if you want original Dragon Ball, Mr. Popo. The pure disrespect Popo gave Goku and Goku's response was Vegeta's level of crashing and burning.

And if you want, GT. Goku lost to a kid by being tickled out of the ring.

I would even put Goku's lost to Granolah up there since he got caught off-guard with a form with auto-dodge. Think about it. A form that moves on its own and covers Goku's weakness for relaxing his guard lost to a sneak attack Resurrection 'F' style. While may not be humiliating, that is still an epic fail.

And while Goku didn't lose, his entire fight with Caterpy was something.

Toriyama doesn't particularly care about humiliating his characters, which is far more obvious if you read the original Dragon Ball. He's pretty distracted from them unlike other manga creators. For the most part, the gag with Goku was since he was closed to indestructible, he got a lot of physical humor like being set on fire, flying from the sky, or being crush. Which is what makes Dragon Ball different from the examples you gave. It started as a gag manga and kept a lot of that DNA even when things got more serious. And gag manga play no favorite. Everyone is going to be the victim of humiliation.

[Mister_Popo]

- Vegeta gets an immense power-up, but with what meaning? At least MUI was somehow thoughtfully explained.
Vegeta pulls out a form that calls back to the Destroyer Form tied to the Gods of Destruction. But as it turns out, this form has nothing to do with that power. What is the logical connection between 'Ultra Ego' and the 'destructive power of the gods'. I hope, but with a good chance that this is a vain hope, that an explanation will still be given. No, not everything has to be explained in great detail as far as I'm concerned, but here is really a serious hair in the butter in my opinion.

While I agree it should be explained to an extent more in the story, I think this tweet right here sums up the General Idea of Ultra Ego in relation to Vegeta as a character, and how it relates to Beerus and Ultra Instinct. If anything else its very interesting and quite worth the read: https://twitter.com/GalacticMj/status/1 ... 19177?s=20

It's cool that fans try to give a thorough explaination of their own, but it should never have come this far with such an important new upgrade.

In the anime right after the Spirit Bomb clash UI Omen appeared and Whis immediately explained what just had happened.
Otherwise fans all over the world would have been massively confused.
Likewise a small quote from Vegeta during his fight with Granolah, in order to correctly explain the connection between Beerus initiation and the actual transformation and how it works, would have been enough to avoid disaster.
Every additonal explaination given in coming chapters, is mere damage control.

[LightBing]

Theories for the wish the Heeters will ask?
With their cunning I'm hoping for something better than make Gas stronger.

Also how much information did they get from Zuno? Monthly chapters make remembering stuff hard.

[PurestEvil]

Also how much information did they get from Zuno? Monthly chapters make remembering stuff hard.

They asked 10 questions, but we are yet to find out what they were.

[TKA]

I used to also be upset that Goku always outshone everyone. Then I stopped being the legitimate 12 year old I was who watched this everyday on Toonami.

He’s the protagonist of this story. Some characters may be more in focus than him at various points of the story, but Dragonball (at least this contiguous narrative) is Goku’s story. It’s ridiculous to be this incensed by the protagonist being the one to resolve conflicts in his own story.

[Cipher]

Moro completely clowns on Goku, including in dialogue, when Goku starts losing in UI Sign. He says he had nothing to worry about and that he had no need to be so cautious from the start.

Jiren calls Goku a no-name and tells him he should have picked a fight with someone his own size.

I don’t know what manga people are reading. Vegeta and Goku are both equal recipients of dismissive quips and begrudging respect from antagonists when they lose.

Even if Vegeta did get roasted a bit more by villains, would it matter? His headstrong boastfulness (presumably part of why people like him?) makes him more ripe for moments of comeuppance. He’s still the second most prominent character and treated with respect by the overall arc of each storyline’s narrative, having not gone one arc in Super without either being pivotal in their victory or having some kind of moment of spotlit character growth—usually both!

[HeroR]

Moro completely clowns on Goku, including in dialogue, when Goku starts losing in UI Sign. He says he had nothing to worry about and that he had no need to be so cautious from the start.

Jiren calls Goku a no-name and tells him he should have picked a fight with someone his own size.

I don’t know what manga people are reading. Vegeta and Goku are both equal recipients of dismissive quips and begrudging respect from antagonists when they lose.

Even if Vegeta did get roasted a bit more by villains, would it matter? His headstrong boastfulness (presumably part of why people like him?) makes him more ripe for moments of comeuppance. He’s still the second most prominent character and treated with respect by the overall arc of each storyline’s narrative, having not gone one arc in Super without either being pivotal in their victory or having some kind of moment of spotlit character growth—usually both!

On Jiren, in the same chapter he roosted Goku, he praised Goku for realizing that Hit’s technique wasn’t effecting him and he played along until he could KO Hit. Goku even tease Jiren for remembering his name.

Vegeta being humiliated stands out mostly because a) it’s fun to meme Vegeta because he acts all tough and mighty until he gets his butt kicked and b) Vegeta is a salty SOB when he loses with him having several meltdowns like when fought Goku the first time and his fight against Frieza. Goku losing and being humble isn’t as fun to meme because Goku take his losses better with few exceptions and he doesn’t tend to lose to lesser villains outside of strange conditions like Ginyu’s body change, being sick, being poison, or tired. Vegeta don’t tend to have these conditions when he loses. He either loses hard or he brings it on himself, most of the time both.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Theories for the wish the Heeters will ask?
With their cunning I'm hoping for something better than make Gas stronger.

Also how much information did they get from Zuno? Monthly chapters make remembering stuff hard.

Elec is still counting on the fact that Granolah, Goku and Vegeta will end up killing each other. So I'm not so sure right now if the wish is necessarily going to be to make Gas the strongest, as Elec is clearly not thinking about the Heeters defeating Granolah and the Saiyans. Maybe he will ask for omniscience? Since he values ​intel more than military force

[Xeogran]

Theories for the wish the Heeters will ask?
With their cunning I'm hoping for something better than make Gas stronger.

Maybe to steal Granolah's power and divide it amongst the 4 of them. This way all the Heeters can be relevant and the loophole could allow them to skip the negative side effect.

Granolah would effectively have to join the good side and learn how to fight without being so overpowered.

[Marz]

- Vegeta gets an immense power-up, but with what meaning? At least MUI was somehow thoughtfully explained.
Vegeta pulls out a form that calls back to the Destroyer Form tied to the Gods of Destruction. But as it turns out, this form has nothing to do with that power. What is the logical connection between 'Ultra Ego' and the 'destructive power of the gods'. I hope, but with a good chance that this is a vain hope, that an explanation will still be given. No, not everything has to be explained in great detail as far as I'm concerned, but here is really a serious hair in the butter in my opinion.

it was the fans who were assuming the form was a god of destruction transformation like Toppo's in the anime (where he needed to use it to perform the powers of the destroyers), but we had no context, it was just speculation. It is clear that the ''A God of destruction's power'' in the title of the chapter is about the destruction instinct and mentaility that Beerus taught Vegeta, which is also used by other destroyers (and which is what fits best with Vegeta's nature). the destruction technique is part of it because is fueled by this mindset. Just like ultra instinct it's a mentality shared by the angels (which is also what fits best with goku's nature).

like, people really need to read the beerus chapters at the beginning of this saga, there is the whole explanation of this power. it's not about destroyers' powers or angelic powers, these are forms run by instincts

[Thani]

- Vegeta gets an immense power-up, but with what meaning? At least MUI was somehow thoughtfully explained.
Vegeta pulls out a form that calls back to the Destroyer Form tied to the Gods of Destruction. But as it turns out, this form has nothing to do with that power. What is the logical connection between 'Ultra Ego' and the 'destructive power of the gods'. I hope, but with a good chance that this is a vain hope, that an explanation will still be given. No, not everything has to be explained in great detail as far as I'm concerned, but here is really a serious hair in the butter in my opinion.

it was the fans who were assuming the form was a god of destruction transformation like Toppo's in the anime (where he needed to use it to perform the powers of the destroyers), but we had no context, it was just speculation. It is clear that the ''A God of destruction's power'' in the title of the chapter is about the destruction instinct and mentaility that Beerus taught Vegeta, which is also used by other destroyers (and which is what fits best with Vegeta's nature). the destruction technique is part of it because if fueled by this mindset. Just like ultra instinct it's a mentality shared by the angels (which is also what fits best with goku's nature).

like, people really need to read the beerus chapters at the beginning of this saga, there is the whole explanation of this power. it's not about destroyers' powers or angelic powers, these are forms run by instincts

Yup, will admit that I thought it was related as well.

However, I wonder why Vegeta himself stabilished a relationship between his Ultra Ego and Ultra Instinct itself. Thematically, it should be related to the Gods of Destruction in order to pair with the Angels. But we might see more of it next chapter.

[TheNingen]

Theories for the wish the Heeters will ask?
With their cunning I'm hoping for something better than make Gas stronger.

Maybe to steal Granolah's power and divide it amongst the 4 of them. This way all the Heeters can be relevant and the loophole could allow them to skip the negative side effect.

Granolah would effectively have to join the good side and learn how to fight without being so overpowered.

Man people are beating me to the punch and giving answers I was going to give had I not been asleep...Looking at you @Cipher, @HeroR and @Popo.

As for my spec, The Heaters all this time have been going on about how power is information and money. What if they used a wish that allowed them to know literally everything? Get any information they want/need. They'd know about martial arts concepts, people's thoughts, etc. The wish could be used however they need it to be. I'm hoping they don't go the boring route and just wish for Gas to be the strongest. They've been all about information so far, hopefully the wish reflects that