"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Magnificent Ponta]

But what exactly does make Vegeta a better martial artist here and how is that related to the gods ability to destruct?

An ability that makes Vegeta exponentially more powerful as combat goes on obviously makes him a more formidable warrior than he otherwise would be, by definition.

As for how it is linked to the Gods of Destruction - entering a battle frenzy that also exponentially boosts one's combat prowess has a clearly intuitive linkage to destructive ability; so, an ultra-powerful warrior in a battle-crazed state that is making them yet more powerful is going to be extremely destructive. It's clear that this would be something the Gods of Destruction would be well-suited to wield because their job is to destroy things, which requires destructive capacity, and battle, intrinsically linked to destruction as that is, excites them as well (established a number of times in the series to date).

To be honest, the association of this with Gods of Destruction seems a good deal clearer than the association of Angels with Ultra Instinct. Everything about that ability sounds like something the Gods of Destruction would be highly adept in. While I didn't actually use the word in the post you quoted, I don't think 'obvious' is too strong.

And how does it exactly work? You stay very vague in your explaination without giving details on how the exact mechanism works, and then you say it's obvious?

But it's explained for us in the most recent Chapters: The experience of combat (for Vegeta, the suffering of damage in combat) provokes an excited mental state, which (in Vegeta's case awakens his innate Divine Power and) generates a massive amount of power for combat, which continues to rise as combat continues.

The connection between ki power and what we would call mental or emotional states is well-established in Dragon Ball, so all of this seems quite straightforward to me. I certainly don't think we need more information to understand basically how it works: body takes punishment, provokes ecstatic state, generates power.

That isn't to say, though, that there's nothing left to explain about the form/ability; I think there is: in particular, I'd like to see confirmation that Gods of Destruction are always in the 'Ego' State like Angels are always in the 'Instinct' State; I'd also like an explanation of whether all users of the ability need to suffer damage, or whether any of the excitement of combat will do (and therefore whether Vegeta would be able to find some less damaging way of activating and using the ability in the future, such as focusing on destruction to an all-consuming extent, as it is implied Beerus can). But I'm not surprised this hasn't been addressed yet.

It's a godly technique and the angels despite their power aren't gods.

Angels are Gods; they're just Gods of a different kind to Kaioshin or Gods of Destruction. In Chapter 30, The Grand Priest mentions that "All the Gods besides the Guide Angels will be erased together along with their Universe" (so the Angels are included among the term 'Gods' in his statement), and in Chapter 63, Moro determines that Merus is "some sort of Deity" from the fact that he can't sense his life force.

As DB's version of your obsessed avenger who can't be reasoned with, I think Granolah is a pretty competently written character. He might be one of Toyotaro's best.

I haven't quite decided what to think of Granolah overall, but I do enjoy the juxtaposition of his unreasoning focus with his ultra-perfect sight; he sees all, except the truth of his situation. I like that.

[HeroR]

But what exactly does make Vegeta a better martial artist here and how is that related to the gods ability to destruct?

An ability that makes Vegeta exponentially more powerful as combat goes on obviously makes him a more formidable warrior than he otherwise would be, by definition.

As for how it is linked to the Gods of Destruction - entering a battle frenzy that also exponentially boosts one's combat prowess has a clearly intuitive linkage to destructive ability; so, an ultra-powerful warrior in a battle-crazed state that is making them yet more powerful is going to be extremely destructive. It's clear that this would be something the Gods of Destruction would be well-suited to wield because their job is to destroy things, which requires destructive capacity, and battle, intrinsically linked to destruction as that is, excites them as well (established a number of times in the series to date).

To be honest, the association of this with Gods of Destruction seems a good deal clearer than the association of Angels with Ultra Instinct. Everything about that ability sounds like something the Gods of Destruction would be highly adept in. While I didn't actually use the word in the post you quoted, I don't think 'obvious' is too strong.

And how does it exactly work? You stay very vague in your explaination without giving details on how the exact mechanism works, and then you say it's obvious?

But it's explained for us in the most recent Chapters: The experience of combat (for Vegeta, the suffering of damage in combat) provokes an excited mental state, which (in Vegeta's case awakens his innate Divine Power and) generates a massive amount of power for combat, which continues to rise as combat continues.

The connection between ki power and what we would call mental or emotional states is well-established in Dragon Ball, so all of this seems quite straightforward to me. I certainly don't think we need more information to understand basically how it works: body takes punishment, provokes ecstatic state, generates power.

That isn't to say, though, that there's nothing left to explain about the form/ability; I think there is: in particular, I'd like to see confirmation that Gods of Destruction are always in the 'Ego' State like Angels are always in the 'Instinct' State; I'd also like an explanation of whether all users of the ability need to suffer damage, or whether any of the excitement of combat will do (and therefore whether Vegeta would be able to find some less damaging way of activating and using the ability in the future, such as focusing on destruction to an all-consuming extent, as it is implied Beerus can). But I'm not surprised this hasn't been addressed yet.

It's a godly technique and the angels despite their power aren't gods.

Angels are Gods; they're just Gods of a different kind to Kaioshin or Gods of Destruction. In Chapter 30, The Grand Priest mentions that "All the Gods besides the Guide Angels will be erased together along with their Universe" (so the Angels are included among the term 'Gods' in his statement), and in Chapter 63, Moro determines that Merus is "some sort of Deity" from the fact that he can't sense his life force.

As DB's version of your obsessed avenger who can't be reasoned with, I think Granolah is a pretty competently written character. He might be one of Toyotaro's best.

I haven't quite decided what to think of Granolah overall, but I do enjoy the juxtaposition of his unreasoning focus with his ultra-perfect sight; he sees all, except the truth of his situation. I like that.

Getting stronger has really nothing to do with martial arts nor fighting. Especially when anime Black did basically the same thing.

Gods of Destruction are about thoughtful destruction for the sake of creation. Not destruction for the sake of battle or ego. This only really applies to Beerus who sucks at his job. Even in the manga, none of the gods entered a battle craze state in the royal with Belmond being the most pragmatic and Beerus using the calming UI at first. Vegeta is in-line with a common berserker vs the Gods of Destruction who are supposed to function like the construction crew knocking down an old building so a new one can be built.

UI is very obvious to those who practiced even casual martial arts like me or people in Japan who grew up with this stuff in their daily media since they worship Bruce Lee. UI like concepts dates back to the original Dragon Ball that no one watched. It only really sounds super rare and hard to understand to the outside world. And even then, some picked up what UI is easily because of shows like Avatar that had Aang’s primary fighting style be all about floaty movesets and evading.

Whis has stated several times that he isn’t a god. Moro’s statement holds little weight since he didn’t even know what an Angel was and made an assumption.

[Thani]

It's a "technique of the gods" that only Angels are shown to have mastered and, indeed, shown that it comes naturally to them, to the point that even a trainee like Merus, not an appointed guide and extremely inexperient, has access to the completed version of it. Beerus himself said that it's their specialty.

Not sure what else there is to say on the matter.

[HeroR]

It's a "technique of the gods" that only Angels are shown to have mastered and, indeed, shown that it comes naturally to them, to the point that even a trainee like Merus, not an appointed guide and extremely inexperient, has access to the completed version of it. Beerus himself said that it's their specialty.

Not sure what else there is to say on the matter.

And how old is Merus compared to the other Gods of Destruction? How do you know that he didn’t learn UI from age since the angels seem older than the gods?

That and Goku, a mere mortal, did UI better than the gods in just a few years. The point is learning the technique of the gods or learning it easily doesn’t auto make you a god. Otherwise, Goku is a god at a higher caliber than Beerus.

Whis said he isn’t a god. So I take him at his word.

[Miracles]

[theherodjl]

I'm pretty sure that Whis never said that he isn't a God, just that he isn't a Kaioshin or a Hakaishin. A distinction has yet to be made about how Angels specifically differ from Gods, unless I'm missing something?

[Magnificent Ponta]

Getting stronger has really nothing to do with martial arts nor fighting.

In Dragon Ball, it sure as heck does. Take this comment from Roshi as one example of many that indicates as much: "Even in the most refined Martial Arts, it all comes down to one body hammering another...and ultimately, the stronger one wins...it's as easy as that..."

There are instances in Dragon Ball where sheer power is prioritised blindly to the extent that it becomes a blunder (e.g., Trunks), but generally speaking, the linkage between greater power and combat ability is so ingrained in Dragon Ball that they're basically synonyms, and I'm surprised that needs any explanation at all.

Gods of Destruction are about thoughtful destruction for the sake of creation. Not destruction for the sake of battle or ego.

Kaio-Sama introduces Beerus as a "God of Chaos", and Rou Kaioshin assumes malign intent from Champa in collecting the Dragon Balls, and the pair nearly destroyed Universe 6 in a battle long ago, so it's definitely possible to overstate their natural reflective thoughtfulness - they can be menaces as well. Beerus also comments in Chapter 19 that he doesn't even need justification to destroy things, because he is a God of Destruction, and nobody ever contests that position. When Beerus is criticised in the manga, it's not for destroying too much stuff, but actually for not doing his job enough - Kibito (Chapter 16) and Shin (Chapter 30) both say the problem is that Beerus doesn't do his job at all, but rather spends most of the time sleeping. He has other character flaws that make him a poor occupant of the role, to be sure (e.g., his capriciousness), but his combative destructiveness is not, in and of itself, seen to be anything other than what he's meant to be like.

Gods of Destruction are meant to destroy the right things, for sure (viz. things that endanger the overall cosmos and which would seriously damage the flourishing of its inhabitant mortals - something like the appearance of Buu or Moro), but that hardly precludes a focus on fighting and destructiveness as such, or the usefulness of a technique that would amplify these things. In fact, had Beerus actually done his job in the Moro arc, he'd've certainly found a technique where a stimulated mental state generates more power to be pretty useful in putting down Moro. Or the almost-but-not-quite-immortal Buu, for that matter.

As for combat obsession, along with being described as "a God of Chaos", Kaio-Sama's description adds that Beerus is "the strongest warrior in the Universe". Beerus is a Divine Warrior as much as he is anything else. Further, Gods of Destruction seem to be excited by the prospect of entertaining combat: Beerus starts out the whole of Dragon Ball Super looking for "the ultimate warrior who would be so fun to play around with", and Beerus comments on having had fun in Chapter 4, and Goku becoming stronger intrigues him enough to spare Earth so that he can fight him again; in Chapter 27, he comments on how his fight with Vegeta is "getting more exciting", and Quitela makes the same comment in the exhibition match in Chapter 28 (it's also clearly important to him that he can prove himself the strongest God of Destruction, so there's that, too), and he looks disappointed when The Grand Priest halts the fight. Further, Beerus also makes the comment in Chapter 70 that Destruction "never gets old" to him, so he personally takes delight in the act of destruction for its own sake, and the other Gods of Destruction seem to feel the same way.

As for selfish self-centredness, that's hardly unique to Beerus among the Gods of Destruction - Champa was prepared to destroy his own Universe because Beerus ate the Puff-Puff Berry from off his birthday cake. You could assert that Champa, too, is uniquely selfish and self-centred because he's Beerus's twin, but when the other Gods of Destruction are introduced for us, a bunch of them are engaging in self-centred pursuits that hardly make them look like virtuous and reflective stewards of the Cosmos: Heles is doing her make-up and insisting her servants recognise her unique beauty; Quitela is just eating snacks and playing video games; and Belmod is partying with harlequin floozies whose planet he's already decided to blow up no matter how much fun he has with them that night - he even erases one for speaking out of turn to Marcarita. Further, in Chapter 42 he scoffs at the idea that a God of Destruction would accept the "weak thinking" that would result in recognising and relying on others. And he's the God of Destruction of the 5th-best Universe there is (i.e., the 'best of the rest').

Everything we know about Gods of Destruction marks them out as inherently selfish, self-centred beings who are interested in gratifying themselves, and a significant part of that gratification comes from combat and destruction. Maybe the best 4 of them are less so - we cannot really know at this point - but from what we see, Beerus is hardly an outlier.

Even in the manga, none of the gods entered a battle craze state in the royal

This is a matter of interpretation; you can easily read this back into the escalating fight. At the beginning of Chapter 29, everyone is worried that Belmod is actually trying to kill them; Liquiir gets enraged and shoots off a huge volley of blasts; Heles tries to snipe Liquiir in the face and is surprised she hasn't killed him; Rumsshi's battle roar is followed up by a crazed charge into the melee, and the whole thing devolves into a massive pell-mell brawl that escalates in intensity until Goku can't follow it anymore. All that seems consonant with the Gods of Destruction psyching themselves up, becoming more destructive, and increasing their power as they fight.

Whis has stated several times that he isn’t a god.

I'm not aware of any time he has said this in the manga - just that it isn't the place of Angels to intervene or make decisions on the course of events, as that rests with the Kaioshin and Gods of Destruction - and I've given you an instance where The Grand Priest lumps Angels in with other kinds of God (scan helpfully provided by Miracles). Are you able to reference a specific counter-quote here?

As for Moro's "assumption", Merus smiles at it in response, which seems to me to confirm it (in the same way that Moro's 'assumption' of camouflage is confirmed in the exchange - he's on the money on both counts); not that any further confirmation is needed, given that it was established as far back as Chapter 4 that not being able to sense the being's ki is a proof of deity - it was true for Goku, so I'm really not sure why we'd determine it's not true for Merus.

[TKA]

Pretty sure we had this discussion a few weeks ago. The Gods of Destruction destroy things according to their whims. It's not some JRPG "the world is rotten" nonsense. This sense of superiority in deciding who lives and who dies being wrong was the whole point of Zamasu as a character. Even Beerus destroying the Saiyan homeworld was just a capricious act that he thought of in the moment. There isn't a checklist with planets set to be destroyed and what order they should be destroyed in. This is what makes them the opposite of the more methodical Kaioshin.

[ankokudaishogun]

I'd also like an explanation of whether all users of the ability need to suffer damage, or whether any of the excitement of combat will do (and therefore whether Vegeta would be able to find some less damaging way of activating and using the ability in the future, such as focusing on destruction to an all-consuming extent, as it is implied Beerus can). But I'm not surprised this hasn't been addressed yet.

the various GoDs have been generally shown being fixated on various things.

I bet Heles would rise her UE power by fixating on "beauty", for example.

Vegeta can probably "evolve" his UE by using the fight itself as source of fixation, without needing to take blows(which appears to be more as a early shortcut)

[Skar]

Pretty sure we had this discussion a few weeks ago. The Gods of Destruction destroy things according to their whims. It's not some JRPG "the world is rotten" nonsense. This sense of superiority in deciding who lives and who dies being wrong was the whole point of Zamasu as a character. Even Beerus destroying the Saiyan homeworld was just a capricious act that he thought of in the moment. There isn't a checklist with planets set to be destroyed and what order they should be destroyed in. This is what makes them the opposite of the more methodical Kaioshin.

Wasn't that the point of the mortal score? Beerus had the second lowest because he was lazy and didn't take care of any threats that wiped out hundreds of planets. I don't think random destruction is part of the job since that probably happens enough naturally from supernovas, meteors, etc. There doesn't need to an exact checklist but I think the job involves maintaining some order since the universes with high scores seemed to have more active Gods of Destruction and more stable.

[TKA]

Wasn't that the point of the mortal score? Beerus had the second lowest because he was lazy and didn't take care of any threats that wiped out hundreds of planets. I don't think random destruction is part of the job since that probably happens enough naturally from supernovas, meteors, etc.

And the universe that won is the one with the low mortal score. That's the story telling you this is the right way to do things. Especially since it comes right after Zamas and his JRPG-brand villainy.

[BWri]

Wasn't that the point of the mortal score? Beerus had the second lowest because he was lazy and didn't take care of any threats that wiped out hundreds of planets. I don't think random destruction is part of the job since that probably happens enough naturally from supernovas, meteors, etc.

And the universe that won is the one with the low mortal score. That's the story telling you this is the right way to do things. Especially since it comes right after Zamas and his JRPG-brand villainy.

I like to think of Universe 7 as that bad neighborhood you don't want to get lost in. It's a whole universe where the inmates have basically taken over the asylum.

[LightBing]

Wasn't that the point of the mortal score? Beerus had the second lowest because he was lazy and didn't take care of any threats that wiped out hundreds of planets. I don't think random destruction is part of the job since that probably happens enough naturally from supernovas, meteors, etc.

And the universe that won is the one with the low mortal score. That's the story telling you this is the right way to do things. Especially since it comes right after Zamas and his JRPG-brand villainy.

Except four Universes due to their higher level weren't even at risk of destruction. We also have Sidra from Universe 9(?) surveying a miserable planet for destruction calling it his job; I believe this scene is also present in the anime.

Beerus is incompetent and the story is straightforward about it. Destruction must be thoughtful.

[YamiGoku]

I found this video from MazakoX interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCwxJYdNcV8

ID = Ultra Instinct
EGO = Ultra Ego
Super EGO = Kaioshin Transformation???

[TheNingen]

As DB's version of your obsessed avenger who can't be reasoned with, I think Granolah is a pretty competently written character. He might be one of Toyotaro's best.

I haven't quite decided what to think of Granolah overall, but I do enjoy the juxtaposition of his unreasoning focus with his ultra-perfect sight; he sees all, except the truth of his situation. I like that.

That's sort of the problem though. He DOES see the truth of his situation. He sees and knows what he's going after and he now knows that Freeza was the reason for the Saiyan's extinction. It really is no different from Sasuke learning the truth about Itachi and learning why he did what he did, then going "Lol still don't care though, I'mma murder everyone." And Sasuke didn't care about reason from any of his allies logical arguments either. His own feelings were prioritized there. Granolah seems to not be any different, which leads me to believe Toyo might pull an angle to the one that FINALLY truly snaps him out of it is Oatmeel. Oat failed once but with persistence might break through.

[Magnificent Ponta]

As DB's version of your obsessed avenger who can't be reasoned with, I think Granolah is a pretty competently written character. He might be one of Toyotaro's best.

I haven't quite decided what to think of Granolah overall, but I do enjoy the juxtaposition of his unreasoning focus with his ultra-perfect sight; he sees all, except the truth of his situation. I like that.

That's sort of the problem though. He DOES see the truth of his situation. He sees and knows what he's going after and he now knows that Freeza was the reason for the Saiyan's extinction. It really is no different from Sasuke learning the truth about Itachi and learning why he did what he did, then going "Lol still don't care though, I'mma murder everyone." And Sasuke didn't care about reason from any of his allies logical arguments either. His own feelings were prioritized there. Granolah seems to not be any different, which leads me to believe Toyo might pull an angle to the one that FINALLY truly snaps him out of it is Oatmeel. Oat failed once but with persistence might break through.

I was referring more to the fact that the Heeters have been playing him all this time, lying to him about specifically why his planet was destroyed (i.e., that they arranged it with Freeza to get the Sugarians' money) and what they've done in deliberately bringing the Saiyans to him now to try to bump him off because they want a clear run to take Freeza's army now. He doesn't even know about any of that stuff yet, but it's behind everything that's going on in his life right now.

But also, he's choosing not to see that Goku and Vegeta aren't his real enemy, here, so he's deliberately blinding himself to that truth, too, despite efforts from his only ally to make him see it. You're right that he clearly sees Freeza as his ultimate target as well, but he doesn't seem to see anything around it, whether by happenstance or choice. Which is also fitting for Granolah's character, as that's rather like a sniper looking at their target down the scope. The 'scope' he's choosing to look through gives him artificial clarity, but also limits his field of vision.

[TheNingen]

I haven't quite decided what to think of Granolah overall, but I do enjoy the juxtaposition of his unreasoning focus with his ultra-perfect sight; he sees all, except the truth of his situation. I like that.

That's sort of the problem though. He DOES see the truth of his situation. He sees and knows what he's going after and he now knows that Freeza was the reason for the Saiyan's extinction. It really is no different from Sasuke learning the truth about Itachi and learning why he did what he did, then going "Lol still don't care though, I'mma murder everyone." And Sasuke didn't care about reason from any of his allies logical arguments either. His own feelings were prioritized there. Granolah seems to not be any different, which leads me to believe Toyo might pull an angle to the one that FINALLY truly snaps him out of it is Oatmeel. Oat failed once but with persistence might break through.

I was referring more to the fact that the Heeters have been playing him all this time, lying to him about specifically why his planet was destroyed (i.e., that they arranged it with Freeza to get the Sugarians' money) and what they've done in deliberately bringing the Saiyans to him now to try to bump him off because they want a clear run to take Freeza's army now. He doesn't even know about any of that stuff yet, but it's behind everything that's going on in his life right now.

But also, he's choosing not to see that Goku and Vegeta aren't his real enemy, here, so he's deliberately blinding himself to that truth, too, despite efforts from his only ally to make him see it. You're right that he clearly sees Freeza as his ultimate target as well, but he doesn't seem to see anything around it, whether by happenstance or choice. Which is also fitting for Granolah's character, as that's rather like a sniper looking at their target down the scope. The 'scope' he's choosing to look through gives him artificial clarity, but also limits his field of vision.

I guess the mileage may vary. Of all the characters of Toyo's own creation, I've really only been interested in the Heeters as they're not good people by any means, but they're not mustache twirling villains either. There's some shades to them and they're really just opportunistic asshole business men at most. But they all care about and respect one another, and also give said respect to people who earn or deserve it. At least thus far.

I've said my piece about Moro plenty, I've reread the Moro arc plenty of times and still don't really care about Meerus and most of the characters in the Granolah arc haven't been doing it for me either.

[TKA]

Except four Universes due to their higher level weren't even at risk of destruction.

Yes, I too read the story. That's immaterial to the point. This is a fighting manga, and the fact that the worst universe won is the story telling you that the method that got it to the point of being the worst is the best. I don't see Zeno befriending any of the universes that didn't compete, nor do I see the manga giving any attention to them and their gods.

Destruction must be thoughtful.

This is silly on its face. In the context of the story, even more so. The whole point of Vegeta's training was to not think—to not be bogged down by concerns of morality.

[batistabus]

Except four Universes due to their higher level weren't even at risk of destruction. We also have Sidra from Universe 9(?) surveying a miserable planet for destruction calling it his job; I believe this scene is also present in the anime.

Beerus is incompetent and the story is straightforward about it. Destruction must be thoughtful.

Sidra is depicted as pathetic and so hesitant about destruction that he seems unsuited for the job. Even if you value Human Level in a straightforward way, Universe 9 is in last.

[LightBing]

Yes, I too read the story. That's immaterial to the point. This is a fighting manga, and the fact that the worst universe won is the story telling you that the method that got it to the point of being the worst is the best. I don't see Zeno befriending any of the universes that didn't compete, nor do I see the manga giving any attention to them and their gods.

It's not immaterial at all. Beerus was going to destroy the Earth due to a pudding; a planet that contained nine of the fighters that won them the ToP. The story isn't shy about Beerus failures. The Universe levels is just the manga telling us again Beerus is trash, all because he destroys on whims instead of doing his job properly like those four superior Universes.

Reminder that U7 level increased at the end of ToP because #17 was selfless in his final wish, not due to being better at punching and kicking. This might be a battle manga but Toriyama isn't that boring.

This is silly on its face. In the context of the story, even more so. The whole point of Vegeta's training was to not think—to not be bogged down by concerns of morality.

Clearly I was talking about the job of destruction and not the technique. You don't need Hakai to blow up a planet.
Ironically the only time Beerus used Hakai was for the good of the Universe.

Sidra is depicted as pathetic and so hesitant about destruction that he seems unsuited for the job. Even if you value Human Level in a straightforward way, Universe 9 is in last.

His Kaioshin also seems lacking.
I presume his hesitation let's civilizations that hold back the Universe around. At least Beerus has evil cleaning evil, shown by Freeza destroying Planet Vegeta. It's not hard to imagine that Saiyans sticking around would be worse. U7 probably wasn't last by chance.