Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 15; Still Unreleased

[SX10]

I kinda sometimes wonder, if SubZero Ice is just putthere, lurking on these boards now.

[Arian]

I kinda sometimes wonder, if SubZero Ice is just putthere, lurking on these boards now.

I really hope not. Confession time, but I really don't care for that individual.

Do I think he's lying about who he is? No, quite the opposite. But I resent the fact that he gave us so little to work with (presumably to hang onto his job), but said enough to stir shit up, make the secret that Ocean, Toei, and FUNimation tried hard to keep under wraps until something had already materialized blown wide open, and probably lead to a lot of inquiries from fans towards both the voice actors as well as Ocean executives, both of whom were allowed to say precisely nil.

Now, it'd be one thing if SubZero Ice actually worked towards getting Ocean Kai on TV, made things progress, while keeping us informed. But all we were really left with at the end of the day was a lot of useless, albeit interesting trivia that just makes us ponder and get frankly bummed out about what could have been.

Granted, it was cute at first, maybe in the first few months, but just based on the fact that this has all potentially snowballed into a giant pile of NOTHING, I wish he hadn't opened his mouth in the first place. All he essentially did was get us riled up, but didn't provide enough information or power to actually do or say anything meaningful. Plus, he didn't even stay, so essentially he just threw a lit bag of garbage into a dumpster, watched it turn into a dumpster fire, and bounced.

Talking to you specifically, SX10, I do believe you've done much more to actually uplift the curtain shrouding this dub than he ever did, and I don't just say that because we're friends. Same goes for people such as Dragon Ball Ireland, Super Saiyan Prime, TheBlackPaladin, Robo4900, and myself, just to name a few.

And yes, I have enjoyed my time on this thread, but if it's all going to be for not, I don't know then.

Kirbopher wasn't a big help either, even though he always acted like he was. Again, with cryptic vagaries with some inaccurate pessimism on top, and I don't just say that because of things that have recently come to light about him.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I kinda sometimes wonder, if SubZero Ice is just putthere, lurking on these boards now.

I really hope not. Confession time, but I really don't care for that individual.

Do I think he's lying about who he is? No, quite the opposite. But I resent the fact that he gave us so little to work with (presumably to hang onto his job), but said enough to stir shit up, make the secret that Ocean, Toei, and FUNimation tried hard to keep under wraps until something had already materialized blown wide open, and probably lead to a lot of inquiries from fans towards both the voice actors as well as Ocean executives, both of whom were allowed to say precisely nil.

Now, it'd be one thing if SubZero Ice actually worked towards getting Ocean Kai on TV, made things progress, while keeping us informed. But all we were really left with at the end of the day was a lot of useless, albeit interesting trivia that just makes us ponder and get frankly bummed out about what could have been.

Granted, it was cute at first, maybe in the first few months, but just based on the fact that this has all potentially snowballed into a giant pile of NOTHING, I wish he hadn't opened his mouth in the first place. All he essentially did was get us riled up, but didn't provide enough information or power to actually do or say anything meaningful. Plus, he didn't even stay, so essentially he just threw a lit bag of garbage into a dumpster, watched it turn into a dumpster fire, and bounced.

Talking to you specifically, SX10, I do believe you've done much more to actually uplift the curtain shrouding this dub than he ever did, and I don't just say that because we're friends. Same goes for people such as Dragon Ball Ireland, Super Saiyan Prime, TheBlackPaladin, Robo4900, and myself, just to name a few.

And yes, I have enjoyed my time on this thread, but if it's all going to be for not, I don't know then.

Kirbopher wasn't a big help either, even though he always acted like he was. Again, with cryptic vagaries with some inaccurate pessimism on top, and I don't just say that because of things that have recently come to light about him.

Trust me, I completely understand your sentiments and don't blame you in the slightest for having them. It's a totally valid and logical reaction.That said, I respectfully disagree with it.

Like I said, I totally understand thinking less of somebody who provided info that ultimately led to nothing, but show biz is a notoriously protective and secretive one. For that matter, not only is it incredibly protective and secretive, but it's also notoriously unforgiving of the people in it who do not honor the secrecy. Every once in a while all a leaker will get is a slap on the wrist, but the worst-case scenario is that it could be a lawsuit. There are plenty of other bad scenarios that come close to, but don't quite reach, that point as well (permanently losing that client, never being hired by a particular studio again, losing one's agency representation, being labeled as "impossible to work with" and thus resulting in other studios not hiring that person)...the list goes on and on. Like, to this day, I'm amazed that Scott McNeil got in as little trouble as he did after not only revealing his involvement with Kai, but also prefacing said revelation with the phrase, "Screw the NDA." I personally don't think less of him, but it is beyond easy for me to imagine other studios not taking that comment well.

So while I get that Subzero Ice's anonymity can be frustrating, I completely get why he chose to be anonymous. I for one am grateful for what he told us, because he revealed stuff that we would not have known otherwise. Even though this dub didn't get on the air, it almost seemed like it would on a number of occasions, and the info he provided helped keep both the passion alive and equip us with talking points to help it get on the air.

[NitroEX]

Subzero Ice saying what he said didn't change anything. Kirby Morrow and Paul Dobson both independently revealed info about it that same year on the Voice Print podcast. Fans would have still discussed this dub back then even if he didn't post anything.

The only misleading and controversial part was to do with it airing on Kix, which at the time seemed to like a certainty given the timing, history of broadcast dubs in the UK and Kirby's comment on It being for both Europe and Canada, we were all excited. Supposedly Toei didn't want that despite Kix somehow also being aware of it. I wish he could have elaborated a little more on that part but given how things have played out it wouldn't have made any difference.

At the end of the day, I think we have multiple targets who can probably share blame for this Ocean Kai situation but Subzero Ice (or any of the actors) definitely isn't one of them, that's shooting the messenger. I think Canadian TV majorly dropped the ball on this from the beginning as they seem to have turned it down and not course-corrected at any point, but Toei has also likely handled this carelessly themselves, especially if they blocked it in the UK. And who knows if there was some sort of toy deal with Bandai (or whoever else) that fell through and negated the need for a planned broadcast dub. If that was the case I'd be astounded that Ocean didn't get the memo and halt production but, that again would fall on Toei and their partners for miscommunication.

Honestly, DBKai as a brand was just cursed from top to bottom and it's a shame Funimation were the only ones to really benefit from it given how conceited some of their cast members have become. Ocean had a chance to vindicate themselves after all the undeserved crap that was thrown at them for the Saban and Westwood dubs but sadly due to all the bureaucracy it never came to be.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

The only misleading and controversial part was to do with it airing on Kix, which at the time seemed to like a certainty given the timing, history of broadcast dubs in the UK and Kirby's comment on It being for both Europe and Canada, we were all excited. Supposedly Toei didn't want that despite Kix somehow also being aware of it. I wish he could have elaborated a little more on that part but given how things have played out it wouldn't have made any difference.

Still think Kix in 2012 was the biggest missed opportunity for this dub. I sincerely doubt the majority of sales for the the UK orange bricks came from kids that watched the series on Kix and would have preferred the voice consistency. Most likely they were purchased by fans that couldn't afford to import the original US versions, or who were too young to catch the UK broadcasts and were familiar with Funimation's cast from the video games. Manga UK's deal to sell singles for the kids market through Sainsburys also fell through, which made having the same voices on TV even more redundant.

If Kix aired Ocean Kai, they would have still had a similar level of success as they had with the Funimation dub, which would have led to Ocean dubbing TFC, and possibly Super for the countries that got the Bang Zoom dub, as TOEI seemed to only give Super to companies that either finished dubbing Kai or never dubbed it to begin with.

[90sDBZ]

If Kix aired Ocean Kai, they would have still had a similar level of success as they had with the Funimation dub, which would have led to Ocean dubbing TFC, and possibly Super for the countries that got the Bang Zoom dub, as TOEI seemed to only give Super to companies that either finished dubbing Kai or never dubbed it to begin with.

It's weird how Kix never got round to airing TFC, as they were still showing reruns of Kai 1.0 until late 2015. Supposedly Funi's TFC dub had been done for a while before it eventually aired on Toonami US in 2017, and we know an edited version exists. Maybe there was a deal in place that it had to air on Toonami US before anywhere else?

With Super airing on Kix's sister channel Pop, kids who watched Kai a few years back will have missed out on the Buu saga completely.

[Arian]

I read all of these rebuttals (as I eagerly awaited them, haha), and I agree with all of them to an extent, they are good points, but Nitro's response is the only one I feel I need to respond to.

Subzero Ice saying what he said didn't change anything. Kirby Morrow and Paul Dobson both independently revealed info about it that same year on the Voice Print podcast. Fans would have still discussed this dub back then even if he didn't post anything.

I'm not aware of what Paul Dobson did, but Kirby Morrow's announcement followed the speculation that started on Facebook thanks to SubZero Ice mentioning it and Sean Schemmel reaffirming his claims. So Kirby might have not said anything had that not happened. In fact, I believe I recall him in fact saying something akin to "people are talking about it." So I'm not sure voice actors would walk a slippery slope for absolutely no reason.

You're probably correct about Kix, but I don't know enough about the inner workings of it to offer an opinion.

As for what you're saying about FUNimation's involvement as well as Canadian broadcasters' lack of involvement, I'm totally with you on that. Both parties really sabotaged this, even with Toei and Ocean wanting this to happen.

Screw it, one more.

@TheBlackPaladin, regarding SubZero Ice keeping us informed kept our passion for this dub alive. Yes, I do agree with that, having hope and optimism is generally a good thing and an even greater feeling, but once the high wears off, you're jonesing for more, more isn't there, and you start to hate yourself. Very similar to actual hang-ups, actually.

[NitroEX]

I'm not aware of what Paul Dobson did, but Kirby Morrow's announcement followed the speculation that started on Facebook thanks to SubZero Ice mentioning it and Sean Schemmel reaffirming his claims. So Kirby might have not said anything had that not happened. In fact, I believe I recall him in fact saying something akin to "people are talking about it." So I'm not sure voice actors would walk a slippery slope for absolutely no reason.

Relistening to what Kirby said, he was talking about the Funimation version. He mentioned that the actors were talking about it at the conventions which made sense for the Texas cast as they made the announcement earlier that year. When he said it's known and on the internet, he was definitely referring to the Texas version and the discussion surrounding that, not the Canadian production.

He also said that he didn't have to sign an NDA for it which could explain why he and other actors were initially open to talking about it, although things seemed to get stricter later on. Either that or Kirby misunderstood. Kirby's other possible motivation for opening up about It also seemed to have been to address the Goku recasting, he even jokingly mentioned sending fan letters about it to Ocean.
The point is I don't think he was plugged into DB forums and paying close attention to comments from specific users.

Paul Dobson was more tight-lipped about it but basically repeated that Ocean was doing it and that some characters were recast while others were not. He didn't go into detail beyond that.

[KingVegetto]

That voice sounds nothing like Freeza at all .

Or even a good performance. If that’s the indicator of what Tokar was going to sound like I’d rather have Pauline Newstone reprise the role. Horribly miscast and not suited for Freeza but a good “Saturday Morning Cartoon evil alien villain”’ voice.

Just listened to it now and no offense to Tockar, but holy crap that sounded nothing like Freeza . I'm someone who's fine with Linda Young and even I cringed when I heard that. Honestly that sounds more like a Youtuber doing a parody of Freeza then anything. If this is any indication of the quality of the voice-acting in the rest of the dub, i'm starting to see why it isn't been picked up for over a decade, cause multiple episodes of having to listen to that voice would've driven me nuts!

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

That voice sounds nothing like Freeza at all .

Or even a good performance. If that’s the indicator of what Tokar was going to sound like I’d rather have Pauline Newstone reprise the role. Horribly miscast and not suited for Freeza but a good “Saturday Morning Cartoon evil alien villain”’ voice.

Just listened to it now and no offense to Tockar, but holy crap that sounded nothing like Freeza . I'm someone who's fine with Linda Young and even I cringed when I heard that. Honestly that sounds more like a Youtuber doing a parody of Freeza then anything. If this is any indication of the quality of the voice-acting in the rest of the dub, i'm starting to see why it isn't been picked up for over a decade, cause multiple episodes of having to listen to that voice would've driven me nuts!

I don't think we can really judge Lee Tockar's performance as a whole based on that clip. Let's not forget when the first episode of Funimation's dub of Kai with Freeza aired (not including the first episode prologue where Linda Young played him) Chris Ayres only had a single line of dialogue, and the reaction wasn't too great. Now Ayres is widely regarded as not only the best of all the actors who played Freeza in English, but one of the best performances in an English Dragon Ball dub period. I think when we see Tockar's lines in context the performance itself will make more sense.

[KingVegetto]

Or even a good performance. If that’s the indicator of what Tokar was going to sound like I’d rather have Pauline Newstone reprise the role. Horribly miscast and not suited for Freeza but a good “Saturday Morning Cartoon evil alien villain”’ voice.

Just listened to it now and no offense to Tockar, but holy crap that sounded nothing like Freeza . I'm someone who's fine with Linda Young and even I cringed when I heard that. Honestly that sounds more like a Youtuber doing a parody of Freeza then anything. If this is any indication of the quality of the voice-acting in the rest of the dub, i'm starting to see why it isn't been picked up for over a decade, cause multiple episodes of having to listen to that voice would've driven me nuts!

I don't think we can really judge Lee Tockar's performance as a whole based on that clip. Let's not forget when the first episode of Funimation's dub of Kai with Freeza aired (not including the first episode prologue where Linda Young played him) Chris Ayres only had a single line of dialogue, and the reaction wasn't too great. Now Ayres is widely regarded as not only the best of all the actors who played Freeza in English, but one of the best performances in an English Dragon Ball dub period. I think when we see Tockar's lines in context the performance itself will make more sense.

True he might sound better at some points.

[Cure Dragon 255]

https://kidscreen.com/2021/10/27/genius ... unlimited/

Please let this dub air God.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

https://kidscreen.com/2021/10/27/genius ... unlimited/

Please let this dub air God.

I really hope it does. We know Wow were in the process of working out a deal for Kai to be seen, so hopefully this can work in their favour somehow. Even if a linear channel isn't in the pipeline, Super has shown TOEI have somewhat had a change of heart when it comes to streaming, so hopefully something can be worked out for this OTT Network if all else fails.

[sangofe]

https://kidscreen.com/2021/10/27/genius ... unlimited/

Please let this dub air God.

I really hope it does. We know Wow were in the process of working out a deal for Kai to be seen, so hopefully this can work in their favour somehow. Even if a linear channel isn't in the pipeline, Super has shown TOEI have somewhat had a change of heart when it comes to streaming, so hopefully something can be worked out for this OTT Network if all else fails.

Did someone pimp this idea to them?

[SX10]

It bodes well to see this company already have a traditional channel on the go. What we need is for Marni Shulman to stick around and keep her position.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

https://kidscreen.com/2021/10/27/genius ... unlimited/

Please let this dub air God.

I really hope it does. We know Wow were in the process of working out a deal for Kai to be seen, so hopefully this can work in their favour somehow. Even if a linear channel isn't in the pipeline, Super has shown TOEI have somewhat had a change of heart when it comes to streaming, so hopefully something can be worked out for this OTT Network if all else fails.

Did someone pimp this idea to them?

Not yet, as far as I'm aware. I am hoping streaming is still a possible avenue for Kai, but hard to say because it's never been on any platform other than one designed for catch-up TV.

It bodes well to see this company already have a traditional channel on the go. What we need is for Marni Shulman to stick around and keep her position.

Yeah, I think the fact Marni spoke to Ken Morrison was very telling that we've made her very aware of the importance of going for Ocean's version. As long as she's still with Wow and there's a linear channel planned we will be able to count on her for Ocean Kai to be a part of it.

[NitroEX]

I think there's zero chance of a streaming option for this, unfortunately. Kai has never been streamed as far as I know, and the distributors to the streaming platforms (Toei, Funimation/MangaUK) would only offer them the uncut Funi dub if they seriously considered it.

On top of that, there are no Canadian content rules for streaming platforms either, so even in Canada they would still favour the uncut version. That being said, the CRTC does seem to be trying to change things but regardless, I don't see that change realistically making a dent as far as anime goes, and I don't see DB content arriving on Netflix or Amazon outside of Japan.

[Kamiccolo9]

I just want to say, as someone who has no real connection to this topic in general, that this is an absolutely fascinating saga, and this is probably the best single thread on this forum. Great work, guys. Regardless of how this ends.

[SX10]

I just want to say, as someone who has no real connection to this topic in general, that this is an absolutely fascinating saga, and this is probably the best single thread on this forum. Great work, guys. Regardless of how this ends.

Much obliged

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I just want to say, as someone who has no real connection to this topic in general, that this is an absolutely fascinating saga, and this is probably the best single thread on this forum. Great work, guys. Regardless of how this ends.

I'll say this much. As one of the few fans that loves both the Funimation and Ocean casts, I've seen things from both sides, but the popularity of this thread comes down to one thing that has been consistent since even before Kai came along - us Ocean fans have been robbed.

Aside from the Rock the Dragon set and Brian Drummond's cameo in Super, this Kai dub has been the only thing Ocean fans have had to look forward to in the last 16-17 years. No new dubbed episodes, let alone movies or specials, no uncut redubs, no more home releases, Rock the Dragon was a once-off collector's item that got neither the standard edition that was originally pitched nor the Manga UK version that Jerome said he was making enquiries about (which he likely decided against due to the fee Funimation would have charged in addition to BBFC costs).

Funimation have had it all. They not only got to redo old episodes uncut, but also mix a dub track with the Kikuchi score (which they likely never provided Ocean with for Z). Even their broadcast dub is mostly available on the old VHS and DVD singles. Manga UK could have easily acquired not only the original first two dubbed Z seasons, but also the Westwood dub if they wanted to because contrary to popular belief it's them, not AB Groupe that created and has the rights to that dub. So the majority of what a Funimation fan has asked for they've got, Ocean fans... not as much to put it lightly.

Funimation got to dub not only all of Z uncut, but also OG Dragon Ball, GT, the old and new movies, Kai, Super. Granted Ocean got to do their own mostly uncut dubs with OG Dragon Ball and GT, but nothing since then. And although we know uncut was considered for Kai, again, with likely no hope of a home release Funimation fans still have it so much better. Granted the Pioneer movies are uncut (and damn right excellent), but sadly those DVDs are hard to come across because they are long out-of-print, and could have easily been included on any other home release of the movies as an extra audio track, but like always companies like Funimation, Madman and Manga UK have shown very little interest, if any interest in catering to Ocean fans.

This Kai dub was all us Ocean fans had to get excited for, ever since it became knowledge to us that it was being produced, and unless a channel picks it up we can't have it. Until that changes this thread will likely remain what it is - the best place on the internet for us Ocean fans to congregate and geek out over this version of the series, because no matter how you slice it we've been robbed of a great many things.

Lots of Dragon Ball fans, and anime fans to this day don't care for the Ocean cast anymore, and that's because companies like Funimation and Manga UK have, intentionally or not, gone above and beyond to disregard them in favour of the Texas cast. Hell there is a cohort of UK fans that swear the inhouse dub was what they had for most of the original run, which is wrong, as there are plenty of recordings that prove the Westwood and Blue Water dubs aired for the majority of the series

And of course no fan is entitled to anything, but there have been so many missed opportunities over the years for companies to give any gesture of consideration to fans of the cast that made this series the smash hit it's been in English-speaking countries. Considering the Texas cast weren't around as long but they've still gotten such special treatment by comparison is a disservice to the Canadian cast in my opinion.