MasenkoHA wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:45 amI think it’s because there’s no active malice with Mr.Popo that at worst most fans just sort of sigh at his existence. Almost nobody would argue his existence is actually harmful. Most people are aware he’s born out of cultural ignorance than any active attempt at degrading another race.
Majin Buu wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:55 pmThis is my viewpoint too. As a Black person, even after discovering Popo's uneducated dialect in the Japanese version, I never got the sense that Toriyama was using him to mock Black people.
Toriyama is not a subtle writer. If he had wanted to mock Black people, I think it would be far more obvious. Plus he had a perfect opportunity to do just that with Adjutant Black and the most you can say about him is that naming the one prominent Black guy in the army "Black" is a little problematic, though I put that in the same "a little problematic but overall harmless" category as the first season of Power Rangers having the Black guy and Asian girl be the black ranger and yellow ranger respectively.
Both of these posts are dead on.
To sum up: are Popo's affectations rooted in offensive, racially derogative stereotypes? Absolutely 1000%. No sane person could possibly argue otherwise. But I think what a lot of people in this thread are missing is...
context ALWAYS matters.
The worst, most racially derogatory aspects of Popo are purely surface level and affectational. In terms of actual substance of the role he plays in the series, apart from his job as a servant/attendant (which combined with the affectations, also has a racially awful context) he's otherwise portrayed as strong, hyper competent, wise, a great fighter in his own right and a great martial arts teacher (one of Goku's better ones honestly, which we discussed in a thread about Goku's best martial arts teachers not too long ago), and he's NEVER the butt of any racially bigoted jokes or made to play the fool. He's generally one of the more serious, less comedic characters in the series (despite his appearance) and all the characters generally treat him with a tremendously great deal of respect.
To that point:
jjgp1112 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:04 pm
I'm going to take the super wild guess and wager that krump dancer, Majin Buu, and I probably know a wide enough range of black people to make reasonable enough assumptions.
Hell, I knew a fat dark-skinned guy in high school who nicknamed himself Mr. Popo
I'm going to pull my "back in the pre-dub/fansub days" card for the umpteen billionth time here, I know; but going ALL the way back to the very, VERY beginning of Dragon Ball's North American fandom in the late 80s/early 90s, there has ALWAYS been a **massive** portion of its fanbase that were black. From the getgo, day one.
Hardly once in like... just shy of 30 solid years have I almost EVER seen any kind of substantial backlash against Popo from DB's overwhelmingly large black audience. Almost ever. *Maybe* there'd be one or two instances I could think of if I REALLY stretched back into my memory: but in almost ALL instances where people in or outside of DB fandom would get uncomfortable and offended at Popo's racial affectations... it was almost universally 100% from white people. It honestly was like clockwork.
Obviously this is all anecdotal, so take it for whatever its worth. But to all the white Kanzenshuu users here who are wringing their hands over this: apart from most of the other black users here (all of whom are telling you in no uncertain terms that they DO NOT in any way give two shits about Popo's racial stereotyping, nor moreover do any of the black people/DB fans that THEY know), I myself, someone who's grown up in an overwhelmingly black/Latino area for half of my life, and who's got at least a solid decade or two on 99% of most users here (mods and site owner included) in terms of deep experience within U.S. DB fandom... I too, in ALL those years and in ALL that time spent talking with black DB fans can BARELY ever recall even ONE notable instance where Popo's racial affect raised anything stronger than a tiny, slight wince
at most.
And personally, I think the reason for that is pretty self-evident: despite the glaringly obvious outward racist issues with his affect, the narrative otherwise in NO way mistreats him or casts him in anything at all resembling a negative, insulting, or patronizing light. Popo I think is a clear case where its "content over surface".
And the reason I think that Popo turned out that way is also fairly obvious. Japan had relatively minimal experience with black people: certainly when compared to the U.S. and other Western nations. Obviously there's a black population that lives there, but they are in the grand scheme of things pretty minuscule (or at least they generally have been historically). As of the most recent demographical data I could fine, a minuscule 0.02% of Japan's entire population is black. Hell, only 2.3% of Japan is non-Japanese
in general. Let that sink in: barely a little over two percent of Japan is non-Japanese broadly, and less than a fraction of a fraction of a percent of that is black.
As a society that broadly speaking has historically been overwhelmingly isolationist, Japan generally doesn't know nor seems to particularly care much about the context of how black people are portrayed across the history of Western media. Why would they, when they come into contact with such a microscopic amount of them generally? Finer nuances of black history in America and the West would be largely almost completely irrelevant to them.
And don't get it twisted: I'm certainly not in any remote, vague way making any kind of excuses or apologies for instances throughout Japan's history (as well as the present day) where they obviously and clearly
were hostile towards black people.
But what I'm saying is that overall in the grand totality, they just don't have the same level or degree of racial baggage and societal scarring that the U.S. (and various European/Western nations) do when it comes to black people. And that's not to say they don't have ANY racial baggage towards them at all: they obviously have their fair share (there's beyond plenty of stories out there of Japanese people regarding the sight of a black person among them like they're witnessing an alien being from another galaxy). But it simply doesn't carry the same traumatic context and violent connotations that it does in the U.S. where our history with black people is literally soaked in blood.
In a weird way, it makes Japan simultaneously more insensitive and at the same time generally more apathetic regarding racial politics between black and white people.
Put simply, while obviously a lot of Japanese people and culture buy into a lot of shitty, gross stereotypes about black people (largely due to ignorance and inexperience, the common roots of a lot of dumb stereotypes, to say nothing of whatever they might glean from Western media in their periphery) they simply don't carry the same level of vitriol, seething hatred, and resentment that you'll find in other countries (particularly the U.S.), because Japan generally - from everything I've gathered over the years - doesn't seem to feel like it has that much of a dog in the fight either way, since black people make up such a ludicrously insignificant portion of their country either way.
Whatever racial resentment Japan holds toward black people stems largely from their isolationist history that's aimed at ALL foreigners who aren't purely Japanese (be they white, black, Hispanic, Indian, whatever), and isn't bogged down in the same specifics and nuances that black and white relations carry in the U.S. and in other white/Western nations. Its more genuine pure ignorance and lack of exposure than it is seething, violent hatred, malice, and disdain.
Popo I think in many ways is an almost perfect microcosm of Japan's overall attitude towards black people: a mixture of sheer ignorance, dumb stereotypes (culled largely from foreign media rather than real life), but also an almost childlike genuine curiosity and certainly a more than fair dash of exoticism fetishization. What's NOT present in that mix however is raw, toxic hatred, resentment, and sheer existential terror of the kind that defines and embodies so much of the very worst forms of bigotry.
NONE of this excuses Toriyama's portrayal of Popo's appearance and affect in and of itself obviously: it of course still isn't a good thing in any remote way that these stereotypes persist overseas, even to the less virulent and hate-filled degrees that they do in largely isolated countries like Japan (if anything it certainly makes for a more potential landmine should black people, for whatever hypothetical reason, over time somehow wind up becoming a more significant portion of Japan's population).
And to be sure, I also don't want to minimize the role that even more "innocent, childlike" stereotyping rooted in ignorance often plays in further perpetuating much worse and more dangerous forms of bigotry: that innocent ignorance and fascination with the "exotic" can, in the right context and with the right manipulation and prodding, be easily twisted and turned into something a lot more vile and sick. So I don't want anyone to get the impression that I don't see the obvious potential hazards and red flags there as well.
But given Japan's current socio-political conditions (for all the world's myriad of current problems, I don't think we have to worry about a mass, violent Japanese backlash against black people anytime soon), as well as Dragon Ball's general place as an old, largely finished (revival notwithstanding) franchise, I don't think that those innately toxic pitfalls are quite as relevant when dealing with the discussion surrounding Popo's character design and affect: though that's admittedly still certainly another tangent of discussion that I think is still worth having in general.
The bigger point here though is that Popo isn't a creation of hate or resentment or distain: he's a creation of sheer ignorance. Context absolutely matter, and in this case so does intent. And if I had to take a wild guess here, I'd say that the lack of obvious hatred or malice inherent in the character at his core is a LOT of the reason for why most black DB fans either in no way mind Popo, or in plenty of cases even flat out LOVE the character despite the godawful visuals and affect.
That doesn't excuse his shitty racist affect: it simply puts Popo in a category where I don't think he's nearly
as big of an issue as he would be if the character was pumped to the gills with derision, fear, demagoguery, scorn, and disgust towards black people. Popo as he stands is more cringey and embarrassingly awkward rather than an embodiment of something that's genuinely sick and gross.
Since we're doing deep socio-political dives in this thread anyway, I'll also add this.
That the majority of the discomfort surrounding Popo's visuals and speech pattern tends to come from largely white people while black fans are far more welcoming of the character is something that I think speaks (in an obviously far more minor way) toward a different, and much more modern, issue regarding racial relations in the white/western world: the fact that a lot of white people, even some of the most well meaning ones, far too often simply don't actually just shut the fuck up for two seconds and just actually
listen to what black people themselves are actually telling them (pretty plainly and pointedly most of the time) about what it is that they're actually concerned or bothered by, and moreover specifically WHY they're concerned/bothered by it.
There's definitely a kind of patronizing paternalism at play where white people - particularly ones who either don't have a whole lot of real life experience with black people or who are just generally uncomfortable and awkward around them - assume they somehow know better than most black people do about what they're bothered by, and will sometimes go over the top and get offended
for them on their behalf at a perceived racial slight; even if its something that in the grand scheme of things is relatively benign or doesn't particularly much bother said black person to begin with.
This is a phenomenon that's been around quite awhile, but has come particularly more to the forefront in the past 7 years or so (gee, wonder why THAT could be?) and its still an issue that far too many white people still lack far too much self-awareness in addressing, and has lead to no shortage of gobsmackingly embarrassing, cringe moments of well-meaning, but ultimately backfiring, self-owning attempts at trying (way too hard) to be a "woke ally" and whatnot.
And moreover, I think its also just a general problem that far too many people (white or otherwise) have in general with focusing too much on the immediate surface of a problem and not thinking more critically on its deeper substance. Its not enough to just know that something IS bad: you also need to understand WHY its bad, and to how big of an extent its bad. And honestly, when it comes to racial issues like this, it doesn't really take THAT much to better understand: just listen to and actually digest what black people themselves are saying to you directly about their concerns and believe them.
Popo's physical appearance and speech pattern is rooted in racism and isn't at all in any way excusable: but at the same time, I think its also relatively far from something that is or should be seen as foremost deserving of the bulk of people's ire at insensitive media portrayals of minorities. Even within the context of just Dragon Ball itself, I would argue that the anime filler's depiction of Blue as a pedophile due to his gayness is a FAR worse, INFINITELY more vile and grotesquely sickening piece of bigotry within the franchise that is WAY more worth people's scorn, shame, and derision, since its rooted to its foundation in trying to actively insult, degrade, and demonize a minority group (gay men in that case).
Popo, for all his outward cringiness, is in no way a demonization and is overall a far,
far more dignified, generally likable character despite and apart from his more surface-level grossness. Hypothetically, you could pretty easily retain the character almost exactly, changing
only his physical appearance and his speech pattern and leave everything else about him
exactly the same... and he'd be almost virtually NO different whatsoever in terms of his characterization and story function. I think that that's pretty crucial to note when judging how the character scales in his overall level of offensiveness. His aesthetics are gross, but not the core of his purpose in the series nor even the bulk of how he's portrayed otherwise.
To that point, I actually came across a bit of fan art of Popo today where the artist attempted to
redesign Popo to retain the same basic concept and keep him recognizable, but removing as much of the racially insensitive aspects as possible. I think it came out pretty good, but you be the judge.
I suppose what I'm ultimately trying to say is for people to have a better sense of proportionality and nuance in their analysis of these things, rather than go by sheer, knee-jerk, gut-level initial emotional reaction. And to be totally fair, Popo's physical appearance absolutely slaps you square in the fucking face pretty damn hard with its immediate, blatantly outward racism. But once you get past that initial shock of uncomfortable awkwardness, its quickly readily apparent that Popo is otherwise portrayed as a strong, intelligent, competent character who is a figure of respect among the other characters.
That context and substance I think goes a long, LONG way in dulling and mitigating the brunt of the racist aspects of his physical appearance and speech pattern, and I think that's ultimately why such a vast chunk of black DB fans (if not an outright majority of them) throughout the past 30+ years now have overall, broadly-speaking, not had nearly as much of a problem with him as a lot of people might assume that they would. On average and in aggregate obviously, as I'm sure there are some black fans out there who (very much 1000% understandably) can't get past the character's affect and are rightly offended by it.
The bigger takeaway though for white fans in here is this: listen to what black people themselves (broadly speaking) are telling you straight on before you go on a crusade on their behalf. Moreover, take not just context, but also scale and proportionality into deeper consideration: is this offensive thing SO overwhelmingly toxic and corrosive that its REALLY worth my time, energy, and outrage? Particularly considering the other fish to fry that are out there?
Pick your battles carefully, think critically, apply common sense, and once again be sure to actually LISTEN to what minorities are actually saying to you directly about what the real root of their problems are.
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