What how why is that Family Guy example relevant?DBZAOTA482 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:30 pmCure Dragon 255 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:50 pm It is irrelevant, it has nothing to do with International popularity reviving something.
It's relevant to the fact Japanese companies do care on some level about the international popularity of their products.
So that's why Japan hadn't gotten any new stuff for 5 years after GT ended.
Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
To be fair, the popularity in the US did have an influence on the videogames, particularly the Budokai and Tenkaichi/Sparking series.
There was an old interview were they said Broly, Cooler, and SS4 were all put in Budokai 3 because of their popularity in the US. They also mostly avoided putting in characters ahead of their US TV debut, i.e. Budokai 1 ended at Cell because Buu hadn't finished airing, Budokai 2 ended at Buu because GT hadn't finished airing etc..
And there's also the approach Kenji Yamamoto took with his plagiarized Budokai soundtrack. It ripped off a lot of heavy metal songs, often going for a similar hardcore vibe to Funimation's replacement scores. It did also have its fair share of lighthearted jazzy tracks too to be fair. It seems to be universally loved by both dub and sub fans, which is an incredible feat (even if it's plagiarized). It managed to somehow be the best of both worlds and still feel totally natural.
There was an old interview were they said Broly, Cooler, and SS4 were all put in Budokai 3 because of their popularity in the US. They also mostly avoided putting in characters ahead of their US TV debut, i.e. Budokai 1 ended at Cell because Buu hadn't finished airing, Budokai 2 ended at Buu because GT hadn't finished airing etc..
And there's also the approach Kenji Yamamoto took with his plagiarized Budokai soundtrack. It ripped off a lot of heavy metal songs, often going for a similar hardcore vibe to Funimation's replacement scores. It did also have its fair share of lighthearted jazzy tracks too to be fair. It seems to be universally loved by both dub and sub fans, which is an incredible feat (even if it's plagiarized). It managed to somehow be the best of both worlds and still feel totally natural.
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
That's a way more convincing argument than anything DBZAOTA has said.
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
Family Guy is a series that did poorly initially on its native channel but was revived after doing exceptionally well on other platforms.Cure Dragon 255 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:39 pmWhat how why is that Family Guy example relevant?DBZAOTA482 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:30 pmCure Dragon 255 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:50 pm It is irrelevant, it has nothing to do with International popularity reviving something.
It's relevant to the fact Japanese companies do care on some level about the international popularity of their products.
So that's why Japan hadn't gotten any new stuff for 5 years after GT ended.
He doesn't explain why Japan hadn't gotten any Dragon Ball stuff in that timespan. The Super anime ended and they're still getting new stuff.
Also, the Budokai games were all released in North America or Europe first then Japan with no additional changes (except for B3 and to a lesser extent, B2).
fadeddreams5 wrote:Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
jjgp1112 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
I... am... utterly...speechless. Dragon Ball did BADLY in Japan according to you?DBZAOTA482 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:18 pmFamily Guy is a series that did poorly initially on its native channel but was revived after doing exceptionally well on other platforms.Cure Dragon 255 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:39 pmWhat how why is that Family Guy example relevant?DBZAOTA482 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:30 pm
It's relevant to the fact Japanese companies do care on some level about the international popularity of their products.
So that's why Japan hadn't gotten any new stuff for 5 years after GT ended.
He doesn't explain why Japan hadn't gotten any Dragon Ball stuff in that timespan. The Super anime ended and they're still getting new stuff.
Also, the Budokai games were all released in North America or Europe first then Japan with no additional changes (except for B3 and to a lesser extent, B2).
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
Again, this is not accurate. The first Budokai game was being developed specifically for the Japanese market, and the international distribution was an afterthought. They had incredible production issues jumping to the new generation of consoles (similar to the jump to HD consoles years many Japanese developers experienced years later), which delayed production on the game significantly... nevermind Torishima coming in, seeing what had been worked on so far, and making them completely restart development.
(To Adamant's earlier point about Fist of the North Star, Bandai actually independently decided to start working on a Dragon Ball game because of their success with a nostalgia-grab Fist of the North Star game right before then. They figured if that sold, surely Dragon Ball might. They didn't even talk to the Shueisha editorial department about it. There was no coordination, no plan. This is part of what led Torishima coming in, seeing what they were working on, and scrapping it. A good deal of this information comes from a three-part article recapping a conference Torishiama took part in. We talked about it a bit on podcast 488, and it's still on me that the full translation hasn't been posted because I'm hung up on editing a bunch of images for it.)
The later points about adding specific characters in sequels and/or being shocked at the international reaction to certain characters is a separate discussion from the fact that, at this point in time, with the first Budokai game and leading up to its release in 2002, there was no regard given during its initial development to the international market. I don't know that I can make this any more clear, having described it and linked to a discussion about the interview where this information comes from the game's own producer.
(I acknowledge that the three Budokai games technically released first in America. I don't really have an answer for why that is, but quite frankly it doesn't change any of the surrounding facts.)
Because it was over, and there was no regard or care for the international market. It was the series' original heyday, and it was over. Done. Kaputz. Why keep supporting something that's done? Why keep pushing it? The Dr. Slump anime remake was on, and One Piece was hitting its stride (the anime started in 1999).DBZAOTA482 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:18 pm He doesn't explain why Japan hadn't gotten any Dragon Ball stuff in that timespan. The Super anime ended and they're still getting new stuff.
When they were ready to start trying to milk it again for the nostalgia purchases, they did. Honestly, I'm surprised they tried such a thing as soon as 2002. Seemed too quick to me.
Today's atmosphere and understanding of international licensing is completely different from what it was in the 1990s.
(Also, I'd add, Super is still going: just not as a television series.)
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
Yamamoto had been making Dragonball music in that style since long before Funimation knew what a Dragonball was.90sDBZ wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:57 pm And there's also the approach Kenji Yamamoto took with his plagiarized Budokai soundtrack. It ripped off a lot of heavy metal songs, often going for a similar hardcore vibe to Funimation's replacement scores. It did also have its fair share of lighthearted jazzy tracks too to be fair. It seems to be universally loved by both dub and sub fans, which is an incredible feat (even if it's plagiarized). It managed to somehow be the best of both worlds and still feel totally natural.
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
In Budokai 3, Yamamoto actually did plagiarize a Disturbed song that was used in Funimartion's Movie 5 soundtrack, although that may have just been a funny coincidence.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
Could you site some exanples of him using heavy metal specifically? I know he had a long history with the franchise beforehand. Off the top of my head the closest I can think of is stuff like Battle Point Unlimited, Mind Power ki, Spirit vs Spirit, and that RRA insert song I forget the name of. Gamewise I'd need to listen to more.Adamant wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:39 pmYamamoto had been making Dragonball music in that style since long before Funimation knew what a Dragonball was.90sDBZ wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:57 pm And there's also the approach Kenji Yamamoto took with his plagiarized Budokai soundtrack. It ripped off a lot of heavy metal songs, often going for a similar hardcore vibe to Funimation's replacement scores. It did also have its fair share of lighthearted jazzy tracks too to be fair. It seems to be universally loved by both dub and sub fans, which is an incredible feat (even if it's plagiarized). It managed to somehow be the best of both worlds and still feel totally natural.
On a side note, the Ultimatum theme from Budokai 3 rips off The Game by Disturbed, which was used in Funimation's Movie 5 Goku vs Cooler fight. It even plays when you fight Cooler in Goku's story mode. Coincidence? Perhaps.
Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
hello, a minor point out but you wrote manga instead of anime for one piece's airing year. thanks for all the info.VegettoEX wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:29 pm -snip-
Because it was over, and there was no regard or care for the international market. It was the series' original heyday, and it was over. Done. Kaputz. Why keep supporting something that's done? Why keep pushing it? The Dr. Slump anime remake was on, and One Piece was hitting its stride (the manga started in 1999).DBZAOTA482 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:18 pm He doesn't explain why Japan hadn't gotten any Dragon Ball stuff in that timespan. The Super anime ended and they're still getting new stuff.
When they were ready to start trying to milk it again for the nostalgia purchases, they did. Honestly, I'm surprised they tried such a thing as soon as 2002. Seemed too quick to me.
Today's atmosphere and understanding of international licensing is completely different from what it was in the 1990s.
(Also, I'd add, Super is still going: just not as a television series.)
DragonBallFoodie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:18 am Isn't this technically worshipping the Monkey King?
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
I remember first hearing Maximum the Hormone's song in Resurrection F and thinking this is just like the rock songs Funimation used in their original movie dubs. It's crazy to think we're living in a world were those kind of songs are not exclusive to English dubs. You could also make the argument Sumitomo's themes for Vegeta, Super Saiyan and the Great Saiyaman in Kai TFC are very Faulconer-esque. I don't think it's out of the question there could have been influence in either case considering how close Funimation and TOEI are.90sDBZ wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:57 pm To be fair, the popularity in the US did have an influence on the videogames, particularly the Budokai and Tenkaichi/Sparking series.
There was an old interview were they said Broly, Cooler, and SS4 were all put in Budokai 3 because of their popularity in the US. They also mostly avoided putting in characters ahead of their US TV debut, i.e. Budokai 1 ended at Cell because Buu hadn't finished airing, Budokai 2 ended at Buu because GT hadn't finished airing etc..
And there's also the approach Kenji Yamamoto took with his plagiarized Budokai soundtrack. It ripped off a lot of heavy metal songs, often going for a similar hardcore vibe to Funimation's replacement scores. It did also have its fair share of lighthearted jazzy tracks too to be fair. It seems to be universally loved by both dub and sub fans, which is an incredible feat (even if it's plagiarized). It managed to somehow be the best of both worlds and still feel totally natural.
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
The important fact of the matter is the games sold quite well. 500,000+ copies within a year in Japan alone is nothing to scoff at.VegettoEX wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:29 pmAgain, this is not accurate. The first Budokai game was being developed specifically for the Japanese market, and the international distribution was an afterthought. They had incredible production issues jumping to the new generation of consoles (similar to the jump to HD consoles years many Japanese developers experienced years later), which delayed production on the game significantly... nevermind Torishima coming in, seeing what had been worked on so far, and making them completely restart development.
(To Adamant's earlier point about Fist of the North Star, Bandai actually independently decided to start working on a Dragon Ball game because of their success with a nostalgia-grab Fist of the North Star game right before then. They figured if that sold, surely Dragon Ball might. They didn't even talk to the Shueisha editorial department about it. There was no coordination, no plan. This is part of what led Torishima coming in, seeing what they were working on, and scrapping it. A good deal of this information comes from a three-part article recapping a conference Torishiama took part in. We talked about it a bit on podcast 488, and it's still on me that the full translation hasn't been posted because I'm hung up on editing a bunch of images for it.)
The later points about adding specific characters in sequels and/or being shocked at the international reaction to certain characters is a separate discussion from the fact that, at this point in time, with the first Budokai game and leading up to its release in 2002, there was no regard given during its initial development to the international market. I don't know that I can make this any more clear, having described it and linked to a discussion about the interview where this information comes from the game's own producer.
(I acknowledge that the three Budokai games technically released first in America. I don't really have an answer for why that is, but quite frankly it doesn't change any of the surrounding facts.)
Nostalgia-driven merch has a very narrow market. I don't see anything made with that purpose in mind doing half as well as Dragon Ball was doing.Because it was over, and there was no regard or care for the international market. It was the series' original heyday, and it was over. Done. Kaputz. Why keep supporting something that's done? Why keep pushing it? The Dr. Slump anime remake was on, and One Piece was hitting its stride (the manga started in 1999).
When they were ready to start trying to milk it again for the nostalgia purchases, they did. Honestly, I'm surprised they tried such a thing as soon as 2002. Seemed too quick to me.
Today's atmosphere and understanding of international licensing is completely different from what it was in the 1990s.
(Also, I'd add, Super is still going: just not as a television series.)
I know the Super manga is still going but considerably less people read it compared to those who watch the anime.
fadeddreams5 wrote:Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
jjgp1112 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
I don’t even remotely understand what your responses to me mean, DBZAOTA482. Like, I know all those words. And those are sentences. But...??? Help me out here. I can’t tell if you’re agreeing with me, arguing with me, or something else entirely.
The Hyper Dimension soundtrack has hints of things like double bass pedal and guitar riffs, all still hiding underneath the SNES/SFC sound chip.
The Ultimate Battle 22 soundtrack is an extension of everything he had been doing prior, and it's filled with jazzy stuff.
The Legends (the ORIGINAL one; The Legend or Idainaru...) is dripping with all sorts of experimental sounds, bridging techno and rock and all sorts of stuff.
(And, separately, thanks to Shintoki for the typo correction!)
You're hung up on TV series music, when it's game music you should be looking at.90sDBZ wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:37 pm Could you site some exanples of him using heavy metal specifically? I know he had a long history with the franchise beforehand. Off the top of my head the closest I can think of is stuff like Battle Point Unlimited, Mind Power ki, Spirit vs Spirit, and that RRA insert song I forget the name of. Gamewise I'd need to listen to more.
The Hyper Dimension soundtrack has hints of things like double bass pedal and guitar riffs, all still hiding underneath the SNES/SFC sound chip.
The Ultimate Battle 22 soundtrack is an extension of everything he had been doing prior, and it's filled with jazzy stuff.
The Legends (the ORIGINAL one; The Legend or Idainaru...) is dripping with all sorts of experimental sounds, bridging techno and rock and all sorts of stuff.
(And, separately, thanks to Shintoki for the typo correction!)
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
This topic is about when the franchise was revived and my point is that Dragon Ball was raking in big money during the early 2000s despite 5 years of inactivity before that point so you definitely can't say it was dead at that point.
fadeddreams5 wrote:Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
jjgp1112 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
In a way, the revival began in Japan when the Kanzenban and Dragon Boxes released in 2002-2006, reaffirming Japan's interest in Dragon Ball following the ratings decline in late Z into GT. But really, in terms of actually new stuff, video games were already releasing by this point, and that's basically all anyone got a little while after as well.
If you ask me though, the revival of Dragon Ball actually began in 2008, with the Yo! Son Goku! OVA. It was followed by Kai in 2009-2011, further OVAs in 2010 and 2011, BOG in 2013, Kai TFC 2014-2015, ResF in 2015, and Super immediately following those last two.
Some would say it began in 2009 since that's when Kai began, but really the 2008 OVA was the start of something new every year from 2008-2019 except for 2012. Technically we even continued to get new stuff after 2019 with the Heroes anime.
Of course, in the west, we didn't start getting any of this until Kai began airing in 2010, so for the English-speaking world, the revival was delayed by about two years, and the OVAs mostly remained obscure Japan-only things; the 2010 and 2011 OVAs did get released as bonuses on some video games, and I think the 2008 one was briefly on Toei's website or something weird like that? But that's strictly hardcore fan knowledge. As far as casual fans are aware, things came back in the English-speaking world with Kai in 2010. But Dragon Ball's actual revival was 2008, with the OVA, in the same way that the Super era really began in 2013 despite Super itself not beginning until 2015. The 2008 OVA was sort of a dry run, and its popularity proved there was an audience, which is what led to a full-on revival.
I remember even hearing a rumour that Shueisha wanted a new, original anime series to follow the 2008 OVA, but Toei decided it would be more cost effective to do Kai instead.
If you ask me though, the revival of Dragon Ball actually began in 2008, with the Yo! Son Goku! OVA. It was followed by Kai in 2009-2011, further OVAs in 2010 and 2011, BOG in 2013, Kai TFC 2014-2015, ResF in 2015, and Super immediately following those last two.
Some would say it began in 2009 since that's when Kai began, but really the 2008 OVA was the start of something new every year from 2008-2019 except for 2012. Technically we even continued to get new stuff after 2019 with the Heroes anime.
Of course, in the west, we didn't start getting any of this until Kai began airing in 2010, so for the English-speaking world, the revival was delayed by about two years, and the OVAs mostly remained obscure Japan-only things; the 2010 and 2011 OVAs did get released as bonuses on some video games, and I think the 2008 one was briefly on Toei's website or something weird like that? But that's strictly hardcore fan knowledge. As far as casual fans are aware, things came back in the English-speaking world with Kai in 2010. But Dragon Ball's actual revival was 2008, with the OVA, in the same way that the Super era really began in 2013 despite Super itself not beginning until 2015. The 2008 OVA was sort of a dry run, and its popularity proved there was an audience, which is what led to a full-on revival.
I remember even hearing a rumour that Shueisha wanted a new, original anime series to follow the 2008 OVA, but Toei decided it would be more cost effective to do Kai instead.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.
Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
I’d argue there was no revival in the anglosphere because of Dragon Ball’s late to the party arrival in English speaking territories and FUNimation not allowing it to die (and Toei giving them new material just as they’re about to run out) the UUE and “Remastered” release filled the gap between Funimation “finishing Dragon Ball” and Kai’s release. Like Kai starting airing in Japan just right before FUNimation finished releasing those Orange Bricks . And despite how shitty they were they did sell like hotcakes and for better or worse replaced the original presentation of English Dragon Ball Z.Robo4900 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:12 am
Of course, in the west, we didn't start getting any of this until Kai began airing in 2010, so for the English-speaking world, the revival was delayed by about two years, and the OVAs mostly remained obscure Japan-only things; the 2010 and 2011 OVAs did get released as bonuses on some video games, and I think the 2008 one was briefly on Toei's website or something weird like that? But that's strictly hardcore fan knowledge. As far as casual fans are aware, things came back in the English-speaking world with Kai in 2010. But Dragon Ball's actual revival was 2008, with the OVA, in the same way that the Super era really began in 2013 despite Super itself not beginning until 2015. The 2008 OVA was sort of a dry run, and its popularity proved there was an audience, which is what led to a full-on revival.
I remember even hearing a rumour that Shueisha wanted a new, original anime series to follow the 2008 OVA, but Toei decided it would be more cost effective to do Kai instead.
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
Probably yo- son goku and his friends return. It was the first big original db anything in japan in a long long time. Kai helped keep it going until 2013 when BOG hit the scene. However! If dragon ball evolution being so shite really is what made toriyama agree to make a new dbz movie, well maybe that could be considered the start.
Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
Battle of Gods was happening with or without Toriyamadragonmagico wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:25 pm Probably yo- son goku and his friends return. It was the first big original db anything in japan in a long long time. Kai helped keep it going until 2013 when BOG hit the scene. However! If dragon ball evolution being so shite really is what made toriyama agree to make a new dbz movie, well maybe that could be considered the start.
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
I've never gotten the vibe that the Budokai soundtracks were influenced by Faulconer's style. Aside from some songs being in the rock genre (which, as others mentioned, wasn't new for DB games or even unusual for the fighting game genre) Faulconer's music mostly sounded like lower quality midi instruments played through a keyboard, it sounded cheap compared to Yamamoto's compositions.
From what I understand about Budokai music, Yamamoto got to record musicians from both Tokyo and Los Angeles for those games. He even hired a renowned guitarist like Steve Lukather which speaks to the budget of the production. They spared no expense which is why the music sounded so good and remains well regarded. Comparatively, Faulconer had to resort to using college students to do music for him. I don't think anyone working with Yamamoto would have cared much less admired the American series music because it would just be viewed as music made for children whereas the games had an older Japanese audience in mind. There was no Faulconer fanfare at the time the games were being produced either, that's all wishful thinking of those who are nostalgic for the Faulconer music.
Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?
yeah, there is definitely a mix up going on here. Toriyama being invovled isn't what made BOG happen, it's rather what made BOG the way we know it as.MasenkoHA wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:01 pmBattle of Gods was happening with or without Toriyamadragonmagico wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:25 pm Probably yo- son goku and his friends return. It was the first big original db anything in japan in a long long time. Kai helped keep it going until 2013 when BOG hit the scene. However! If dragon ball evolution being so shite really is what made toriyama agree to make a new dbz movie, well maybe that could be considered the start.
kinda weird this misconception came to be, is it cuz people online keep saying that super happened cuz of Evo so they interpret it that way?
DragonBallFoodie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:18 am Isn't this technically worshipping the Monkey King?