Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

So he was holding back against Goku Black?

Was he holding back against Freeza? Moro?

Goku never tries to kill his opponents unless they leave him no choice. Vegeta has an entire speech about this in the Boo arc, c'mon now.

[Goku9001]

Was he holding back against Freeza? Moro?

Goku never tries to kill his opponents unless they leave him no choice. Vegeta has an entire speech about this in the Boo arc, c'mon now.

So he was holding back against Goku Black, is what you are saying?

[SupremeKai25]

The idea that Goku was holding back against Black and Zamasu is not supported by anything in the narrative.

Goku *generally* seeks to spare his opponents but Black and Zamasu were different from everyone else. Unlike every other villain, they believed they did the right thing and were righteous, they would never admit they were wrong, which means that no matter what Goku would never get through to them. Thus, he wouldn't try to spare them or give them a chance to change.

Indeed, we see that Goku was absolutely furious when he learned that F. Zamasu wanted to exterminate all mortals, and vowed to "not let him get his way" (he says this upon fighting him for the first time).

And he clearly wasn't holding back after he learned that Black killed him and his family.

As I said before, Goku had pure killing instincts against Black and Zamasu.

[Goku9001]

It's not even that.

There is a consistent narrative in which Goku will clearly aim to kill his opponent when given the opportunity, mainly when Goku is in a dominant position that would enable him to do so. We see this with Perfect Cell, Moro, and Kid Buu where Goku deliberately fought at full-power with the intention of killing them because there weas no way out otherwise. Goku deliberately attempted to kill Cell and pleaded Gohan to kill him immediately, Goku aimed to battle Moro at full-power prior to perfecting Ultra Instinct, and Goku intentionally attacked Kid Buu with the intent to kill as Goku plans on mustering enough ki to vaporize him permanently. Goku Black and Zamasu fall into that category. Not only could they not be reasoned with, but there was no way they could have dealt with Goku Black's power and Zamasu's immortality without aiming to eliminate them.

Trunks deliberately says Goku was beginning the fight at full-power and Goku/Vegeta explains to the group how powerless they were against the duo after the return from Trunks' timeline in Ep. 58.

Nothing in the narrative suggests that they were holding back against Goku Black and Zamasu. Goku attacked Zamasu at full-power and Zamasu traded multiple blows and even swatted him away. It's as simple as that.

[Hugo Boss]

Sorry for the delayed response. Too much work to get done.

Spoiler:

Then comparing Future Zamasu with Present Zamasu is also inadequate, since they are also technically different characters

Since Future Zamasu had 20 more years, what he did in those years is unknown but it is noted by Goku that something about him somehow felt different. So it is established that F. Zamasu and P. Zamasu (Goku Black) diverge in some ways that are not related to Immortality (because that statement by Goku was made BEFORE the Story revealed to us that he was Immortal). And besides Immortality is not something you feel just by clashing fists with someone.

Present Zamasu/Goku Black thought he could only get significantly stronger by taking Goku's body, but Future Zamasu was never interested in that and thus we must respect this distinction.

[...]

Different characters essentially.

Future Zamasu never fought Goku and didn't go through the experiences his Present counterpart went through.

Just like Future Trunks and Present Trunks went through different experiences and had different views of their own strength, with F. Trunks being humble and feeling inadequate and P. Trunks being way more arrogant and confident (due to being raised by Vegeta).

Same thing here with the Zamases. P. Zamasu thought he needed Goku's body to get stronger but as we see from the Future counterpart Zamasu eventually gathered enough power to challenge SSB Saiyan fighters.

That's not exactly what I meant.

Jiren had his battle power set the moment Toppo established him as a fighter far stronger than him and Goku was more or less even with Toppo. That moment we had an idea about how strong Jiren would be episodes later.

Zamasu in another hand had a distinct battle power in comparison with Kaioshins and perhaps the potential to be as strong as a God of Destruction. The story conducts in a way Zamasu seeks that battle power through Goku's body. Future Zamasu is 20 years older, but there is nothing implying he has took any action in his path the same way the Present one did, so you have no reason to assume the Present Zamasu from moments before knowing Goku and the Future Zamasu from moments before Black killed Future Gowasu are that different, if any.

This doesn't apply to Trunks. His versions had totally different childhood and motivations, one in a peaceful environment and the other in a harsh one. Zamasu's versions only split after knowing Goku/Black respectively, most of their lifetime went the same.

And I never said Goku was talking about his immortality or his mindset/mental state when he felt something different, so I don't know why you are arguing that. Read the explanation below.

Spoiler:

What you are offering me is a baseless interpretation. I look at the scene itself, at the dialogue, and at the way the characters interact, and I don't see any indication that Goku was referring to Zamasu's mental state - and not his power level.

In other words, since I don't understand the point you are trying to make, I don't know how to counter it.

Besides, I didn’t mention mindset, I’m talking about fighting posture.

No originally you said this: "The “something different” Goku noted was Zamasu’s change of approach. He was level-headed and careful the first time, and at that point he lost all composure"

This can indeed be interpreted as mindset don't you think? F. Zamasu was going in with the mindset of getting hit as much as possible to enjoy his Immortality, and being careless, while P. Zamasu had a different mindset since he was still mentally sane and not sadistic/masochist in the slightest.

Very ambiguous wording on your part but I'll roll with it and assume you were referring to their posture.

This version of Zamasu was approaching him too recklessly, while the other one was more careful.

The actual scene is the exact opposite of what you said, or am I misunderstanding something in your argument It is Goku who charged recklessly at Future Zamasu and initiated the fight (as he usually does), while Future Zamasu moved in to fight in response to Goku's charging ahead and engaging him. So the attacker who charged recklessly was Goku, and the defender who retaliated was Future Zamasu.

I don't see nothing implying I was talking about mental state/mindset in my explanation. I'm not discussing who is attacking first either. I quoted the entire dialogue, so you can read yourself.

I'm talking about approach, behavior, posture. Goku's reflection is about how Zamasu is acting, moving, not about his beliefs, sanity or battle power. Future Zamasu was more agressive in his movements than the one he sparred with before, and by consequence his defenses practically lowered.

To illustrate that in numbers.

Present Zamasu ATK 100 / DEF 100 / HP 100 (balanced)
Future Zamasu ATK 200 / DEF 0 / HP ∞ (unbalanced)

Just a disclaimer that I'm not saying anyone can bypass Zamasu's fighting stance, it's just that he tends to not keep his guard as up as he should.

Spoiler:

I’m only asking if you have any in-universe acknowledgment or implication about how Future Zamasu got the strength you are claiming he has.

Episode: 56, literally the first thing Future Zamasu says on-screen:

I thought we had an agreement. Wasn't I supposed to be the one who gets the honor of destroying him [Goku]?

Already right off the bat it's revealed that Black promised F. Zamasu that he'd get the honor of killing Goku. Black discovered the strength of the Saiyan body he stole, and saw Goku's SSB power on Godtube, and he still promised F. Zamasu he could kill Goku, meaning that he was confident Zamasu could succeed. Which means that F. Zamasu simply *has* that power. That we don't know *how* he got it (but we can speculate) doesn't mean that he doesn't *have* that power. You can make the same argument for Jiren, as I was saying earlier...

This is reiterated in ep. 57 where F. Zamasu reminds Black (who interfered in his fight with Goku) of their agreement [that F. Zamasu would get the honor of killing Goku]:

I thought we both agreed Goku would be my prey to hunt.

After which Black, who spectated the fight between Goku and F. Zamasu, doesn't tell Zamasu something like "I misjudged your strength, you're not capable of killing him, let me help", he tells him, and I quote verbatim: "Well I'm afraid this body has a mind of its own and what it wants is him, regrettably I don't think I can resist its pull."

Once again reiterating that Black was confident Zamasu could kill Goku.

Then in ep. 64 Goku Black sends F. Zamasu to kill SSR Trunks, who was able to fight and pressure Black several times (he even defeated him in battle in the previous episode), and thus was also relative to the SSB fighters:

While you are stuck in this stalemate, Zamasu is locating Trunks and the rest of the remaining humans. And torturing them to death!

Which means that Black, who personally fought and felt firsthand the full power of Ikari Trunks (in the previous ep, where he was overwhelmed, but tbf before he got the Scythe power boost), was confident that F. Zamasu would be more than enough to torture Ikari Trunks and the rest of the earthlings.

The only argument you could try to make to counter this is say that Black maybe is just a horrible judge of power level; but I think that Canon portrayal of Zamasu [Goku Black] completely contradicts this, because Zamasu was always praised as a fighting prodigy AND genius; and on top of that Black, having overall the same soul and mind as F. Zamasu, would feel if his counterpart was too weak to actually kill the targets in question. Since it's made abundantly clear throughout the arc that the two Zamases, being the same person, are in completely and perfect synch with each other. But he never raises this concern, and for this reason I think that Black is a very reliable source in gauging F. Zamasu's strength.

Plus earlier in the arc Vegeta prohibited Trunks from fighting Black, sensing that he was too weak (Vegeta and Trunks can't have the same synch P. Zamasu/Black and F. Zamasu have), so to be fair Black would definitely sense if F. Zamasu was too weak to actually kill Goku or kill Trunks and wouldn't trust him to do those things.

In fact come to think of it there's actually no statement of F. Zamasu being weak is there? In the manga of course it is directly stated that Zamasu is weak and even Trunks can beat him (however by Goku who CAN make mistakes, see his opinion of how Broly compares to Beerus); but anyway in the anime there is no statement of any character calling F. Zamasu "weak"; only "careless" and "someone who drops is guard". But not "weak". But of course if you can find a statement then by all means feel free to share it with me, I'd be interested to see it actually.

I can also provide all the battle feats that F. Zamasu has but as you asked only for statements/verbal acknowledgments, these are the main statements (aside from the Goku one which you are trying to disprove) that show us that F. Zamasu has indeed acquired great power compared to his P. counterpart.

To the point that it is Black himself, the P. Zamasu who thought his body was too weak, and took Goku's instead, who was the most confident in F. Zamasu's ability (aside Zamasu himself) to kill SSB-tier fighters, like SSB Goku and Ikari Trunks.

Thus you say that it's improbable that F. Zamasu would acquire such power on his own while his P. counterpart had to steal Goku's body; and yet the P. counterpart (Goku Black) would disagree you, seeing how he thinks that F. Zamasu has the strength to kill SSB Goku.

As far as I’ve seen Future Zamasu is only Present Zamasu

This cannot be because P. Zamasu lost to SSJ2 Goku; while F. Zamasu repeatedly forced the Saiyans to turn SSB just to fight him.

As said many times before, Immortality in itself is also not a power boost, so F. Zamasu is simply that strong on his own, without the magical wish.

.

That was actually what I thought it needed discussion. Black implied Future Zamasu was capable of doing such feats, but you have to consider their situation. Goku was already getting weaker after fighting Black and Trunks was nearly dying when they left him with Bulma, so Black likely considered their lack of energy to fight Future Zamasu. That of course depends on how weaker do you think Goku got, if at all. It's still mind-boggling, because none actually comments on his battle power having raised, when there are plenty in regards to Goku Black.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Ep. 57: SSB Goku vs. F. Zamasu (while Black is standing on top of the building, clearly just spectating)

Zamasu lands a single blow. An exception no different from the likes of Vegeta fighting on par with Ribrianne as a Super Saiyan despite later blowing her away with ease in Base form.

Later in the same episode, Goku kicked him upside a building. Trunks overpowers and runs him through as a Super Saiyan with Zamasu not being able to land a single blow on him.

In Episode 61, when all five characters are fighting, Zamasu does not get in one blow through his own power. He is only able to land a hit on Goku because Goku Black hit him towards him. He is later humiliated with a backhand slap by Goku.

Ep. 62: SSB Vegeta vs. F. Zamasu (while Black is busy fighting Trunks)

Once again, Zamasu fails to land even one blow on his own, they are all done with assistance from Goku Black. Trunks easily swats aside Zamasu to focus on the actual problem which is Goku Black. It makes no sense for Vegeta to use a lesser form due to the serious nature of events and that Goku Black is still involved in the fight.

Ep. 63-64: SSB Goku vs. F. Zamasu (while Black is fighting Vegeta on another battlefield)

Episode 63, Trunks fights the pair again, Zamasu is quickly taken out of the battle. He comes back to fight a drained Super Saiyan Trunks and still can't prove to be any notable amount superior. He lands a genuine hit on him, for only the second time since the character was introduced and it had little effect, otherwise Trunks kept up with him just fine.

The rest is the same as before, Zamasu though weak is made more of a threat due to his immortality and with Goku Black fighting close by and fights swapping hands back and forth its understandable.

This is a weak argument when you consider that mortals like Frieza can surpass in 4 months every bit of training that most Kais get in millions of years.

In four months Frieza trained to unlock all of his potential. It was an intentional thing that he did with a purpose.

Zamasu being a prodigy or not is beside the point. The character is likely millions of years old, Shin who is also "young" is over 5 million years old. Even if Zamasu was a tenth of his age he'd still be over half a million years old. His entire life and time training as this prodigy brought him to a level where he was below Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

Yet somehow with no particular urge or goal to train, unlike Frieza, with just an additional 17 years his strength has increased to that of a Super Saiyan Blue? No, his strength is still going to be the same. A few exceptions here and there doesn't account for much. The character is weaker than Base Black as makes sense.

[SupremeKai25]

Zamasu lands a single blow.

You omitted the parts where he stalemated his punch attack, traded fists with him multiple times in quick succession, and forced him to avoid each of his Ki blasts.

And despite Goku being "so superior" to Zamasu, he couldn't land a single hit on him in that fight.

An exception no different from the likes of Vegeta fighting on par with Ribrianne as a Super Saiyan despite later blowing her away with ease in Base form.

Completely different scenarios. Vegeta was obviously holding back as to not kill Ribrianne or he'd get disqualified. In the context of the Future Trunks arc, Goku had literally no reason to hold back against an opponent who threatened to destroy all of mankind.

Later in the same episode, Goku kicked him upside a building

I don't remember this happening.

Trunks overpowers

He also overpowered SSR Black.

You're cherry-picking feats.

and runs him through as a Super Saiyan with Zamasu not being able to land a single blow on him.

Easily explainable with Zamasu being careless as he always is in a fight.

In Episode 61, when all five characters are fighting, Zamasu does not get in one blow through his own power. He is only able to land a hit on Goku because Goku Black hit him towards him. He is later humiliated with a backhand slap by Goku.

Black was also humiliated in that fight.

Also, despite Goku "being so much stronger", Zamasu effortlessly tanked all of Goku's ki blasts without even a single scratch on his body, which we know is not a bonus of Immortality. Immortality doesn't protect you from physical damage yet Goku, unleashing countless ki blasts on Zamasu, couldn't scratch him at all and Zamasu was just laughing, tanking all of them.

Once again, Zamasu fails to land even one blow on his own, they are all done with assistance from Goku Black.

Then the reverse is also true. Black can't land a single hit without Zamasu assisting him.

Trunks easily swats aside Zamasu to focus on the actual problem which is Goku Black

Because, as explained in the following episode, he knows that Zamasu always drops his guard after being hit by an attack, because he's so overconfident, so the real threat is Black. It's got nothing to do with Zamasu "being weak".

Zamasu is quickly taken out of the battle.

Because Zamasu wanted to. He literally laughs and takes pleasure in getting hit by that blast, a reaction that he wouldn't be having if he was so much weaker than Trunks. In that case, the blast would have literally torn him apart, which didn't happen. In fact it did no damage to him whatsoever.

He comes back to fight a drained Super Saiyan Trunks and still can't prove to be any notable amount superior.

As per dialogue verbatim he wanted to have fun against him, due to his earlier bravado.

otherwise Trunks kept up with him just fine.

If Trunks was so much stronger than Zamasu, he wouldn't just "keep up with him just fine".

The rest is the same as before,

Omitting that Zamasu had a prolonged fight off-screen with SSB Goku and that he was sent by Black to torture and kill Ikari Trunks.

Zamasu being a prodigy or not is beside the point

It's not because Frieza was also a prodigy and it's the only reason why he got so strong by training. Because he was a mutant compared to the rest of his species.

Yet somehow with no particular urge or goal to train, unlike Frieza, with just an additional 17 years his strength has increased to that of a Super Saiyan Blue?

Yes.

We have clear feats of him fighting and holding his own against SSB fighters, why would I ignore them?

We even have a statement from Goku acknowledging P. Zamasu's potential and noting that if he keeps training he can become an even greater threat than Beerus.

You choosing to ignore this evidence doesn't actually mean that Zamasu is weak without Goku's body, far from it.

And besides, as per Goku's statement from BoG, we know that P. Zamasu who is relative to SS2 Goku is also relative to SSG Goku from BoG. So it makes sense that F. Zamasu, after training for 2 more decades, would be relative to SSG's next level, which is SSB.

[Xeno Goku Black]

You omitted the parts where he stalemated his punch attack, traded fists with him multiple times in quick succession, and forced him to avoid each of his Ki blasts.

An outlier or Goku holding back. Zamasu fought Super Saiyan Trunks and the latter overpowered him and struck him and Trunks is weaker than Goku.

Vegeta was obviously holding back as to not kill Ribrianne

That doesn't even make sense. He effortlessly blasted her away in Base form. Why would he need to engage her in Super Saiyan at all. He could have had the same fight in Base and he'd still be holding back.

I don't remember this happening.

It was when Trunks also overpowered Goku Black and hit him into the building prior to Goku and Trunks being back to back.

He also overpowered SSR Black.

Yes that was another outlier or just Goku Black being taken by surprise.

Easily explainable with Zamasu being careless as he always is in a fight.

That wasn't careless, he clearly was trying to hit Trunks and couldn't, got countered and was run through. If he wasn't immortal he'd have died then and there.

Zamasu was just laughing, tanking all of them.

If he was tanking them he wouldn't have been hurtled through the ground.

Black can't land a single hit without Zamasu assisting him.

The same episode he literally had Goku, Vegeta and Trunks attack him one after the other and he kicked each of them away with ease by himself.

If Trunks was so much stronger than Zamasu, he wouldn't just "keep up with him just fine.

Trunks was drained after blasting Goku Black into the mountain and even though Trunks is stronger than Zamasu it's not by a significant amount.

We have clear feats of him fighting and holding his own against SSB fighters, why would I ignore them?

Because he only does so thanks to his immortality. If not for that Trunks would have killed him by himself.

And besides, as per Goku's statement from BoG, we know that P. Zamasu who is relative to SS2 Goku is also relative to SSG Goku from BoG.

We don't know that. Gowasu's comment was based on what Beerus told him.

[ZombieVito]

You can clearly see Zamasu was shocked when SS2 Trunks stabbed him in episode 57. He wasn't trying to get hit there. Later he tries to attack Trunks and gets evaded and overpowered easily. Without immortality, Zamasu would have died right there. Later a tired SS2 Trunks overpowers him yet again.

SS2 Trunks > Zamasu is clear and correlates with the manga.

Also, lol at Black needing Zamasu to get hits in.

[SupremeKai25]

So let me understand.

When Future Zamasu gets hit by Future Trunks, he's fodder and a weakling and Trunks can stomp him. But when Goku Black gets hit by Future Trunks then Black was just sleeping or it was an outlier.

Then Future Zamasu clearly can't do anything to any SSB saiyan without Black's help... despite me thoroughly examining and proving that he had several fights (on-screen and off-screen) against SSB Saiyans where he held his own fairly well against SSB fighters.

And obviously whenever F. Zamasu hits or stalemates a SSB Saiyan, it's also an outlier or the Saiyan is just holding back for whatever reason.

Okay

You omitted the parts where he stalemated his punch attack, traded fists with him multiple times in quick succession, and forced him to avoid each of his Ki blasts.

An outlier or Goku holding back.

Cherry-picking feats.

Also Goku has no reason to hold back against someone who is threatening to exterminate all mortals in the Cosmos and who, as far as he can tell at that point in time, can die like any other enemy.

Zamasu fought Super Saiyan Trunks and the latter overpowered him and struck him and Trunks is weaker than Goku.

Black fought Super Saiyan Trunks and the latter overpowered him and kicked him back and Trunks is weaker than Goku. I guess that means Goku > SSR Black.

That doesn't even make sense. He effortlessly blasted her away in Base form. Why would he need to engage her in Super Saiyan at all. He could have had the same fight in Base and he'd still be holding back.

Then why would Goku use SSB against F. Zamasu if he could stomp him in SS2.

It was when Trunks also overpowered Goku Black and hit him into the building prior to Goku and Trunks being back to back.

Ah, you left that out, why am I not surprised

Yes that was another outlier or just Goku Black being taken by surprise.

Trunks getting a hit on Zamasu.... is literally Zamasu being taken by surprise.... Because it's Canonically stated and SHOWED that Zamasu, due to Immortality, 1) fights carelessly 2) drops his guard 3) takes pleasure when he gets hit by attacks.

The double standards in here are honestly hilarious.

That wasn't careless, he clearly was trying to hit Trunks and couldn't, got countered and was run through. If he wasn't immortal he'd have died then and there.

He clearly was not trying to hit Trunks lol, literally all he was doing was dodging his sword attacks.

If Zamasu wasn't immortal he wouldn't be fighting carelessly in the first place, which is Canonically stated.

If he was tanking them he wouldn't have been hurtled through the ground.

If he wasn't tanking them he would have been pulverized due to being "fodder" to Goku.

The same episode he literally had Goku, Vegeta and Trunks attack him one after the other and he kicked each of them away with ease by himself.

The same episode Zamasu was fighting SSB Vegeta off-screen.

Trunks was drained after blasting Goku Black into the mountain and even though Trunks is stronger than Zamasu it's not by a significant amount.

So Black was completely overpowered and knocked unconscious (in the mountain) by someone who is "only a bit stronger than Zamasu, not by a significant amount".

Thanks for implicitly conceding I guess

Because he only does so thanks to his immortality.

Immortality isn't a power boost. Unless you think Garlic Jr can also overpower Goku and hold his own in prolonged fights with him.

We don't know that. Gowasu's comment was based on what Beerus told him.

Eh? Who's talking about Gowasu?

[Hugo Boss]

It’s important to note that Trunks temporarily got rid of Black while he was using his Super Saiyan Rage form, while he engaged Future Zamasu with his weaker SS2 form because he was drained. In their first fight, Trunks also outmaneuvered him with his hand-to-hand skills in his SS2 form when Black took out his sword. So, Trunks doesn’t need weapons to fight Future Zamasu.

Anyway, I don’t see the point in discussing how strong Future Zamasu is, because his strength is basically dependent on the Super Dragon Balls magic. He could defeat even Goku Black, if they were to fight against each other. That’s what they were reflecting about after Trunks gave them a little time to think. The solution to beat them logically would be only containment or calling Zeno.

[Xeno Goku Black]

So let me understand.

When Future Zamasu gets hit by Future Trunks, he's fodder and a weakling and Trunks can stomp him. But when Goku Black gets hit by Future Trunks then Black was just sleeping or it was an outlier.

Then Future Zamasu clearly can't do anything to any SSB saiyan without Black's help... despite me thoroughly examining and proving that he had several fights (on-screen and off-screen) against SSB Saiyans where he held his own fairly well against SSB fighters.

And obviously whenever F. Zamasu hits or stalemates a SSB Saiyan, it's also an outlier or the Saiyan is just holding back for whatever reason.

Zamasu isn't fodder, he's simply weaker than Trunks and is able to hold his own against superior opposition due to immortality.

Trunks hit Rose Goku Black in the manga just the same when the power levels are clear cut there. Trunks jumped in between the action and Goku Black was caught by surprise evident by the fact that all three couldn't touch him next time he was encountered as the gif above shows.

Zamasu actually did do nothing against anyone by himself. He landed two genuine attacks by himself in all the episodes he appeared in (that I recall) and one was against a drained Super Saiyan. He hit Goku one time.

One.

[SupremeKai25]

So let me understand.

When Future Zamasu gets hit by Future Trunks, he's fodder and a weakling and Trunks can stomp him. But when Goku Black gets hit by Future Trunks then Black was just sleeping or it was an outlier.

Then Future Zamasu clearly can't do anything to any SSB saiyan without Black's help... despite me thoroughly examining and proving that he had several fights (on-screen and off-screen) against SSB Saiyans where he held his own fairly well against SSB fighters.

And obviously whenever F. Zamasu hits or stalemates a SSB Saiyan, it's also an outlier or the Saiyan is just holding back for whatever reason.

Zamasu isn't fodder, he's simply weaker than Trunks and is able to hold his own against superior opposition due to immortality.

Trunks hit Rose Goku Black in the manga just the same when the power levels are clear cut there. Trunks jumped in between the action and Goku Black was caught by surprise evident by the fact that all three couldn't touch him next time he was encountered as the gif above shows.

Zamasu actually did do nothing against anyone by himself. He landed two genuine attacks by himself in all the episodes he appeared in (that I recall) and one was against a drained Super Saiyan. He hit Goku one time.

One.

Doesn't matter if he never hit Goku more than twice because what is important is that he stalemated him several times as shown above.

You already tried to make that argument and it's shown to you that it's pointless to try and gauge someone's strength by the number of times they hit their enemies. Kefla never hit UI Goku but it doesn't change the fact that she was a threat to him.

That's a reductive point that ignores context completely. Zamasu wasn't trying to kill the two Saiyans because Black needed them alive as foil to get stronger. Zamasu himself was the one who advised Black not to kill the Saiyans right away, because they could be a useful means to increase his power. This is context that explains why Zamasu rarely hit his enemies; to conserve their energy, which Black needed for his own evolution.

Also why do you bring up the manga? Literally every villain is fodder there, even Black is fodder in the manga compared to the anime.

[Xeno Goku Black]

You already tried to make that argument and it's shown to you that it's pointless to try and gauge someone's strength by the number of times they hit their enemies. Kefla never hit UI Goku but it doesn't change the fact that she was a threat to him.

Yeah you would say that because he hit him one time in several fights .

Goku had Ultra Instinct him not being touched is part of his thing. Kefla was also said to be stronger than Ultra Instinct Sign Goku the first time he used the form and other comments made it clear she was a threat to him.

Nevermind Goku, Zamasu could barely get his hands on Trunks.

Also why do you bring up the manga? Literally every villain is fodder there, even Black is fodder in the manga compared to the anime.

Manga has the same general idea as the anime. Zamasu is weaker than Base Goku Black and Trunks there as well.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Anyway bored of that now.

I've been going through some of the Golden Frieza Saga to see if it can be determined at all as to where Goku and Vegeta are meant to stack up in their base form.

It is obvious they've powered up rapidly. Frieza says to Goku

"I had heard that you defeated Majin Boo, but I had no idea that you had become this good."

So at the least they do seem to be above Kid Buu but I'm not sure if they are meant to be as strong as Super Saiyan God in Base or not.

When Goku becomes Super Saiyan Blue he describes it as

"The Super Saiyan level of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God."

Does that mean he's meant to be as strong as Super Saiyan God in Base and him becoming Super Saiyan Blue is just him turning Super Saiyan? Which of course ends up a problem when he can use regular Super Saiyan in the next arc.

But then other characters comments like Gohan say

"Apparently, he has turned Super Saiyan God."

Roshi says

"Has Goku reached an even higher level than he was back then?"

Which could imply he wasn't as strong during his fight with Final Form Frieza as he was as a Super Saiyan God. King Kai makes a big deal about him becoming a Super Saiyan God on his own.

But then when Goku and Vegeta are training, Beerus says they've become a lot stronger and offers to fight them so does that mean Base Goku at that point was stronger than Super Saiyan God because he'd absorbed the power and then trained afterwards?

So I can't tell if Base Goku is meant to be vastly more powerful than before just because of all the training and sparring but he's not at all Super Saiyan God level or he's actually stronger than the level he was at when he fought Beerus.

Is it meant to be the former and that's why he can still turn into Super Saiyan God? Or is it the latter and there was a retcon and that's why it took about a hundred episodes for it to re-appear?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I would have to disagree here. Vegeta received a zenkai i.e power boost, which falsely led Goku and Trunks to believe that Vegeta had a chance against SSJ Goku Black. It's only upon Vegeta not faring any better than he did previously i.e SSJ Goku Black having the upper-hand on Vegeta that Goku/Trunks concluded that Vegeta no longer receives zenkais. The context is clearly placing emphasis on Vegeta's power lacking given that an immediate zenkai, which was meant to power him up, didn't change Vegeta's chances at winning. We are also given close-up shots of Goku Black and Vegeta where Goku Black is smiling throughout the exchange whereas Vegeta is clearly in pain. Stamina was never the issue as the context placed behind taking the sensu bean was to provide him a power boost and not simply to restore his stamina.

Vegeta training rigorously in the RoSaT logically did yield a power-boost, that doesn't need to be explicitly stated. It's a natural assumption that the readers can make unless noted otherwise. I mean, isn't that the assumption you are making as to why Vegeta needed the sensu bean? Super Saiyan Blue exhausts a lot of stamina and a sensu bean restores his stamina, therefore the sensu bean was meant to address his stamina issues? It's a reasonable argument, just as reasonable as Vegeta having went from SSJ Goku Black to beyond SSJR Goku Black given that his bursts of SSJB (Post) performed far better against SSJR Goku Black than it did against SSJ Goku Black, despite having his stamina restored, during their first battle.

The reason I mention this is that if the manga proposes the idea of Vegeta receiving a power-boost that exceeds the difference between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue, then what stops SSJ2 Trunks from receiving a power-boost akin to the difference between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan Blue in the anime? Toriyama clearly isn't against such a power-boost as long as the story demands it.

Trunks flat out says Goku and Vegeta no longer get Zenkais. How do you equal that to Vegeta getting one?

If Vegeta got stronger in the Rosat then how is Goku still his equal? He actually does even better than Vegeta against Merged Zamasu despite having done nothing but master the Mafuba, which is not related to power at all. He and Vegeta are also equals in the ToP despite Goku admitedly not having any time to train between sagas.

The manga tends to be more conservative than the anime when it comes to power boosts, so you'd have a hard time selling people this.

[Goku9001]

Trunks flat out says Goku and Vegeta no longer get Zenkais. How do you equal that to Vegeta getting one?

If Vegeta got stronger in the Rosat then how is Goku still his equal? He actually does even better than Vegeta against Merged Zamasu despite having done nothing but master the Mafuba, which is not related to power at all. He and Vegeta are also equals in the ToP despite Goku admitedly not having any time to train between sagas.

The manga tends to be more conservative than the anime when it comes to power boosts, so you'd have a hard time selling people this.

I stated that the point behind giving Vegeta a sensu bean wasn't because Vegeta's stamina was lacking, it was to provide him with the power boost he needed to fight SSJ Goku Black. Thus, the act of giving Vegeta a sensu bean places emphasis on his power being lacking and not his stamina. This is shown to us when Vegeta, despite having his stamina restored, is still inferior to SSJ Goku Black with the crew expressing disappointment that Vegeta's power hadn't increased which was necessary in order to defeat Goku Black.

Perfecting Super Saiyan Blue, in general, must have given him a massive power boost. We're not told when Goku learned how to perfect the form. If he learned it whilst using the Mafuba, then that provides a logical explanation as to why his power increased significantly.

Not really. We're already shown that SSJ2 Vegeta (Post) >> SSJ Goku Black (Initial) >> Base Goku Black (Post) >> Base Goku Black (Initial) >> SSJ2 Trunks ~ SSJ3 Goku >> SSJ2 Vegeta (Pre). That is a massive power boost that is conveyed to us in the same arc. Resurrection of F also shows us that Base Goku (RoF) ~ Final Form Frieza >> 1st Form Frieza >> SSJ Gohan >> Base Goku (BoG). There's no issues with this sort of scaling.

[Goku9001]

Anyway bored of that now.

I've been going through some of the Golden Frieza Saga to see if it can be determined at all as to where Goku and Vegeta are meant to stack up in their base form.

It is obvious they've powered up rapidly. Frieza says to Goku

"I had heard that you defeated Majin Boo, but I had no idea that you had become this good."

So at the least they do seem to be above Kid Buu but I'm not sure if they are meant to be as strong as Super Saiyan God in Base or not.

When Goku becomes Super Saiyan Blue he describes it as

"The Super Saiyan level of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God."

Does that mean he's meant to be as strong as Super Saiyan God in Base and him becoming Super Saiyan Blue is just him turning Super Saiyan? Which of course ends up a problem when he can use regular Super Saiyan in the next arc.

But then other characters comments like Gohan say

"Apparently, he has turned Super Saiyan God."

Roshi says

"Has Goku reached an even higher level than he was back then?"

Which could imply he wasn't as strong during his fight with Final Form Frieza as he was as a Super Saiyan God. King Kai makes a big deal about him becoming a Super Saiyan God on his own.

But then when Goku and Vegeta are training, Beerus says they've become a lot stronger and offers to fight them so does that mean Base Goku at that point was stronger than Super Saiyan God because he'd absorbed the power and then trained afterwards?

So I can't tell if Base Goku is meant to be vastly more powerful than before just because of all the training and sparring but he's not at all Super Saiyan God level or he's actually stronger than the level he was at when he fought Beerus.

Is it meant to be the former and that's why he can still turn into Super Saiyan God? Or is it the latter and there was a retcon and that's why it took about a hundred episodes for it to re-appear?

I took a look at the anime. I don't think those statements are meant to be taken as definitive power statements. Rather, they are merely trying to understand what transformation he is finally using on Frieza. Krillin makes the observation that Goku's ki could no longer be sensed, hence why Gohan responds with the fact that Goku must be Super Saiyan God. Everyone else then questions whether or not that is the case since Goku's hair is blue rather than red. Thus, Roshi suggests that Goku may have reached a level i.e transformation higher than Super Saiyan God because it uses god ki and yet it looks completely different from God. It's not a reference to power rather a reference to what transformation Goku must be using.

If we recall, both SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Trunks are clearly much stronger than any Buu Arc Super Saiyan 2. However, Trunks still describes his form as a level beyond Super Saiyan. That doesn't mean his SSJ2 is equivalent to any SSJ2, it merely explains what the form is. Roshi questioning if the form is a level higher than Super Saiyan God is just that essentially, "is whatever Goku using a level beyond Super Saiyan God?"

[ZombieVito]

Trunks flat out says Goku and Vegeta no longer get Zenkais. How do you equal that to Vegeta getting one?

If Vegeta got stronger in the Rosat then how is Goku still his equal? He actually does even better than Vegeta against Merged Zamasu despite having done nothing but master the Mafuba, which is not related to power at all. He and Vegeta are also equals in the ToP despite Goku admitedly not having any time to train between sagas.

The manga tends to be more conservative than the anime when it comes to power boosts, so you'd have a hard time selling people this.

Well, Goku does better against Merged Zamasu because he uses Completed Blue which gives out a big boost over normal Blue.

[Goku9001]

Well, Goku does better against Merged Zamasu because he uses Completed Blue which gives out a big boost over normal Blue.

What he's saying is:

Perfected SSJB Goku = Perfected SSJB Vegeta yet SSJB Vegeta >> SSJB Goku.

I don't think the logic holds since the context behind Vegeta taking a sensu bean and then Goku/Trunks expressing disappointment of Vegeta not getting a zenkai, hence why he was losing, clearly suggests that Vegeta was inferior due to SSJ Goku Black due to power. Therefore, if Vegeta's bursts of Super Saiyan Blue were above SSJR Goku Black, then he had to have gotten much stronger.

Thus, we should find a way to rationalize the story such that SSJB Goku (2nd Encounter) = SSJB Vegeta (2nd Encounter) in order for Perfected SSJB Goku = Perfected SSJB Vegeta to be the case. The most logical explanation is that Goku presumably attempted to master Super Saiyan Blue after their encounter with Goku Black.