I don't think the logic holds since the context behind Vegeta taking a sensu bean and then Goku/Trunks expressing disappointment of Vegeta not getting a zenkai, hence why he was losing, clearly suggests that Vegeta was inferior due to SSJ Goku Black due to power. Therefore, if Vegeta's bursts of Super Saiyan Blue were above SSJR Goku Black, then he had to have gotten much stronger.
Thus, we should find a way to rationalize the story such that SSJB Goku (2nd Encounter) = SSJB Vegeta (2nd Encounter) in order for Perfected SSJB Goku = Perfected SSJB Vegeta to be the case. The most logical explanation is that Goku presumably attempted to master Super Saiyan Blue after their encounter with Goku Black.
Didn't Goku spent all his time mastering the Mafuba? I'm sure he says something like "I spent all night practicing".
I guess this is one of the many errors Toyotaro has made. Unless Goku got stronger while fighting Zamasu that he closed the gap he had with Vegeta.
Also I don't think Vegeta grew that much stronger in the RoSaT since the fact of him using the switch technique tells me that any significant power loss to his stamina would not warranty his victory against Black.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
Noah wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:17 pm
Going into an what-if territory but how would measure Goku and Vegetto if they could pull out something like a Kaioken x20 + SSGSS3?
Based on the anime, initial SSBE is 20x stronger than SSB -because it's on the same ballpark as SSBKKx20- so it should be way stronger than SSB2, that should be 2x stronger than SSB if it's like SS2 and SS. SSB3 would be x8 SSB, so KKx10 should provide already a greater boost than the known SS forms.
With that Goku would be 160x stronger than SSB... probably enough to overcome any threat, several threats at the same time for sure. Probably not enough to take on Beerus because he is Beerus.
Vegito however, should be vastly superior to Beerus, but probably not enough for Whis. Perfect UI is a pain in the ass.
ZombieVito wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:49 am
Didn't Goku spent all his time mastering the Mafuba? I'm sure he says something like "I spent all night practicing".
I guess this is one of the many errors Toyotaro has made. Unless Goku got stronger while fighting Zamasu that he closed the gap he had with Vegeta.
Also I don't think Vegeta grew that much stronger in the RoSaT since the fact of him using the switch technique tells me that any significant power loss to his stamina would not warranty his victory against Black.
I would have to look into that. It could have very well been Goku keeping it a secret as he tried to conceal the fact that he perfected Super Saiyan Blue until Vegeta was fine with him using it.
As for the rest, that doesn't mean he didn't grow much stronger. Only that the edge Vegeta had after training in the RoSaT wasn't significant enough to overcome SSJR Goku Black without addressing the stamina issues.
How strong do people have Base Goku Black considering when he fought Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta he actually seemed superior to him even then.
At the least he seemed to put up a better fight than Hit did when he fought Super Saiyan Blue Goku with just his natural power level and not including the Time Skip.
Xeno Goku Black wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:35 pm
How strong do people have Base Goku Black considering when he fought Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta he actually seemed superior to him even then.
At the least he seemed to put up a better fight than Hit did when he fought Super Saiyan Blue Goku with just his natural power level and not including the Time Skip.
Above SS2 Goku, apparently not that far off SSB Vegeta, but take it with a grain of salt, Toei has a knack for weird feats, remember base and SS Goku vs Ikari Broly?
Xeno Goku Black wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:35 pm
How strong do people have Base Goku Black considering when he fought Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta he actually seemed superior to him even then.
At the least he seemed to put up a better fight than Hit did when he fought Super Saiyan Blue Goku with just his natural power level and not including the Time Skip.
Super Saiyan God level. So when he turns Super Saiyan (Times 50 SSG) we get his version of Blue (Rose).
Vegeta was suppressed there. When Black fights him later on with Rose, he visibly struggles for a bit when Vegeta catches his punch so he can't be that superior.
Xeno Goku Black wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:35 pm
How strong do people have Base Goku Black considering when he fought Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta he actually seemed superior to him even then.
At the least he seemed to put up a better fight than Hit did when he fought Super Saiyan Blue Goku with just his natural power level and not including the Time Skip.
Base Goku Black is far beyond Super Saiyan God Vegeta, but somewhat below Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta. Base Goku Black was still inferior as Vegeta was wailing on him relentlessly and he even managed to briefly overpower SSJR Goku Black, but Base Goku Black was still able to slip through his guard and landed a kick that affected SSJB Vegeta.
I'd say he's fairly close to SSJB Vegeta, but not quite there.
Him being slightly above Super Saiyan God Vegeta makes sense so that Super Saiyan Rosé can be slightly above Super Saiyan Blue.
The other thing, as I'm going through it at the moment, is how all the characters correlate to each other at the end of that Saga.
See Vegeta trains and he surpasses Goku Black at the time but afterwards he's never portrayed as being any superior to Goku at all who actually performs better against Fused Zamasu. So I'm assuming Goku's earlier rage boost was permanent and Vegeta simply rose to his level. Goku lost though because he let his guard down thinking he'd won.
Goku Black powers up when he gets the Scythe and seems to think he's the strongest.
Fused Zamasu is meant to be far stronger still. Vegeta says he's never seen anyone let off Ki like that before which I originally assumed was a power statement but now I think he's merely referring to his Blades of Judgement technique and the comment is a literal one.
Gowasu though says he's never seen the power of light this great power which Shin agrees with but what does that even mean? What's the power of light? Shin says they have surpassed their understanding so does that mean he has or hasn't surpassed Kaio-ken X10 Goku at the Tournament? I'd assume not seeing as Kaio-ken X2 Goku kicks him to the curb.
Half way through the fight with Fused Zamasu, Vegeta mentions that Saiyan's have no limits and Goku says they'll use Full Power and they perform much better than before. They fly straight through an attack that previously a weaker version had taken them down.
Does that mean they just had a boost at that moment or were they still holding back against Goku Black before? Considering Vegeta and Trunks overpowered him and then Goku did I'd have thought they would be.
As in accordance with feats, Base Goku Black is above SSB Vegeta. He is able to tank countless punches from him without breaking a sweat, then proceed to completely humiliate him with a single kick to the guts.
I suspect that Black didn't even need Rosé to defeat Vegeta at that point. As dialogue verbatim tells us, Black transformed into Rosé to "show just how far he came"; in response to Vegeta showing him his "Ultimate form" (at the time).
But as we can see, Rosé was complete overkill. Vegeta stood absolutely no chance against Rosé Goku Black, and indeed he was effortlessly oneshot at the beginning of the fight and left for dead.
Vegeta becomes a challenge for Black only after breaking the Room of Spirit and Time from the intense training (ep. 63).
Indeed, we see during the second fight between the Saiyans and the Zamasu Duo (ep. 61), that Vegeta was no match for Black. Until ep. 63, they are on two completely different levels of power.
Last edited by SupremeKai25 on Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Xeno Goku Black wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:35 pm
How strong do people have Base Goku Black considering when he fought Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta he actually seemed superior to him even then.
At the least he seemed to put up a better fight than Hit did when he fought Super Saiyan Blue Goku with just his natural power level and not including the Time Skip.
Super Saiyan God level. So when he turns Super Saiyan (Times 50 SSG) we get his version of Blue (Rose).
Vegeta was suppressed there. When Black fights him later on with Rose, he visibly struggles for a bit when Vegeta catches his punch so he can't be that superior.
Xeno Goku Black wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:54 pm
Him being slightly above Super Saiyan God Vegeta makes sense so that Super Saiyan Rosé can be slightly above Super Saiyan Blue.
The other thing, as I'm going through it at the moment, is how all the characters correlate to each other at the end of that Saga.
See Vegeta trains and he surpasses Goku Black at the time but afterwards he's never portrayed as being any superior to Goku at all who actually performs better against Fused Zamasu. So I'm assuming Goku's earlier rage boost was permanent and Vegeta simply rose to his level. Goku lost though because he let his guard down thinking he'd won.
Goku Black powers up when he gets the Scythe and seems to think he's the strongest.
Fused Zamasu is meant to be far stronger still. Vegeta says he's never seen anyone let off Ki like that before which I originally assumed was a power statement but now I think he's merely referring to his Blades of Judgement technique and the comment is a literal one.
Gowasu though says he's never seen the power of light this great power which Shin agrees with but what does that even mean? What's the power of light? Shin says they have surpassed their understanding so does that mean he has or hasn't surpassed Kaio-ken X10 Goku at the Tournament? I'd assume not seeing as Kaio-ken X2 Goku kicks him to the curb.
Half way through the fight with Fused Zamasu, Vegeta mentions that Saiyan's have no limits and Goku says they'll use Full Power and they perform much better than before. They fly straight through an attack that previously a weaker version had taken them down.
Does that mean they just had a boost at that moment or were they still holding back against Goku Black before? Considering Vegeta and Trunks overpowered him and then Goku did I'd have thought they would be.
Goku Black is stronger than Vegeta after getting the Scythe. The whole reason he stalls them with his time clones is to make Goku and Vegeta stronger than him (When Zamasu kills Trunks and Co.) so in turn he can get stronger again. Gowasu also says he's the strongest in episode 65.
I wouldn't be so sure Goku used just Kaioken X2. The preview says he uses a life risking attack in that episode and Kaio especially tells him to not use Kaioken X10 in episode 45 I think. He makes it sound like the X10 version is the one that risked his life during the Hit fight.
Goku winning the beam struggle is him just doing a limit breaking attack against Zamasu. His arms got damaged for a reason.
Goku doesn't surpass Black until he gets Ultra Instinct.
In ep. 65, Gowasu confirms that Black was the "most powerful", praising Fused Zamasu as the ultimate Fusion between "the Immortal Zamasu and the Most Powerful Goku Black". Confirming that Black was the "most powerful" fighter on the battlefield at the time of fusing.
It must also be noted two things about Fused Zamasu:
1) Vegeta confirms that F. Zamasu is jobbing for most of the fight, noting that he is "toying with them, taking his time with them". The only exception would be his beam struggle with Goku, where he is visibly pressured, which leads me to
2) Fused Zamasu was not hit just by Goku's Kamehameha, but also by his own attack (Holy Wrath) being pushed back and exploding on his face, which I wager is what dealt most of the damage to his face.
So in short, the fact that Goku (and Vegeta) were able to destroy Fused Zamasu's bird-like construct, and the fact that Goku damaged F. Zamasu's face, doesn't really mean much in his standing compared to Black.
This is a notion I’ve thought about before, but yeah, we never got to see what Goku Black upper limits were. It was almost like his strength was infinitely increasing, no matter how strong Goku and company become.
Fused Zamasu also shared this ability, though when he was confronted by Vegetto, it seemed his strength was starting to reach a final mark.
Xeno Goku Black wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:00 pm
Where specifically did Gowasu say that in episode 65?
I'll have to look at the preview, I suppose Goku could have used more than Kaioken X2 though generally the number is usually stated.
When he's talking about Fused Zamasu, he describes Black as "The Strongest Goku Black" or something similar.
Hugo Boss wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:53 pm
This is a notion I’ve thought about before, but yeah, we never got to see what Goku Black upper limits were. It was almost like his strength was infinitely increasing, no matter how strong Goku and company become.
Fused Zamasu also shared this ability, though when he was confronted by Vegetto, it seemed his strength was starting to reach a final mark.
Yeah, Goku Black is still technically Goku so he should reach the same limits he does.
Fused Zamasu's growth would have been capped by his body. The more powerful he got, the more his body became unstable.
I'll have to check Gowasu's comment, I know which scene is being referred to.
That said, as I mentioned probably up to that point yeah I can see Goku Black as being the strongest.
It was during the battle with Fused Zamasu however when Goku and Vegeta mentioned, having no limits and using Full Power if they received some boost or weren't using their true strength up to that point and if maybe then they surpassed Goku Black.
Before they were taken out by Zamasu Absolute Lighting but afterwards they flew through the Ultimate Lighting much to his surprise and destroyed that purple bird thing.
If Goku can overpower Zamasu then surely he should do that with Goku Black.
Xeno Goku Black wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:30 pm
I'll have to check Gowasu's comment, I know which scene is being referred to.
That said, as I mentioned probably up to that point yeah I can see Goku Black as being the strongest.
It was during the battle with Fused Zamasu however when Goku and Vegeta mentioned, having no limits and using Full Power if they received some boost or weren't using their true strength up to that point and if maybe then they surpassed Goku Black.
Before they were taken out by Zamasu Absolute Lighting but afterwards they flew through the Ultimate Lighting much to his surprise and destroyed that purple bird thing.
If Goku can overpower Zamasu then surely he should do that with Goku Black.
The only one that is confirmed by dialogue to get a power up is Trunks. Shin says so. Nothing is said about Goku and Vegeta.
I see their comment as "We are going to try really hard this time".
Goku and Vegeta both assert that they need to and will surpass their "limits" and "limits" has always been synonymous with overcoming a wall and reaching new greater levels of power. Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks all needed to be powerful enough to overcome Merged Zamasu's initial attacks. Thus, while they were below SSJR Goku Black at his peak, they surpassed him the moment they blatantly overpowered Merged Zamasu.
Since Goku Black is obviously a component of Merged Zamasu, it's possible that SSJR Goku's Black rose exponentially as Merged Zamasu's was. Since Merged Zamasu's growth was a result of Goku Black's Saiyan biology, it's plausible that Goku Black received the bulk of those gains which could easily place him well above SSJB Goku and Vegeta at their peak when all is said and done.
