Goku9001 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:59 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:36 am
We don't agree.
I never denied that Goku grew stronger after all the beat downs he got, but he's still not surpassing Black without Ultra Instinct.
And that performance is still valid because Black could casually overwhelm 2 Saiyans by himself
without even having to move one limb. His clones were literally humiliating and bullying the two Saiyans. So any power-boost Goku might have gotten in ep. 65 is not closing that gap. A gap in which Goku is so pathetically weaker than Black that, even with Vegeta's help, he can't get past Black's clones. Let alone the real Black.
Also, Yeah, I agree that Goku has feats against a jobbing Fused Zamasu who is toying with people and taking his time. Very impressive indeed.
Future Trunks also has feats against a jobbing F. Zamasu, are we going to try and argue that he is also above Black?
I disagree since Merged Zamasu was only jobbing at the beginning of the battle, but I never mentioned Goku Black in my initial post. All I said was that in order for Goku to overpower Merged Zamasu who was gradually using more and more power, then he had to have gotten stronger given that he was much weaker than Merged Zamasu when he was jobbing.
I think another argument I read was that Goku only managed to do so with a "limit-breaking" move, but that in and of itself implies that he had gotten stronger since the word implies that he shattered his limits at that moment.
Okay so let's suppose that Goku and Black were to fight again somehow after ep. 65.
Goku uses his life-risking move to quickly put an end to Black.
Black replies with his own life-risking move.
Since Black,
without using any life-risking move at all, could completely outclass the two Saiyans, as shown here (where he outclasses them simply by virtue of being there, without even moving one limb):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwuo5h4HKXY&t=53s
It stands to reason that, since Black's "normal" state > Goku's "normal" state (because Black could outclass both Goku and Vegeta), thereby Black's "life-risking" move would also be > Goku's "life-risking" move.
As I said, anything Goku can do, Black can also do it and better. This has always been the case.
Goku needed SS2 to match Black in his Base form.
SSB Goku was stomped by Rosé Black twice.
SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta were completely cornered and overwhelmed once Black got the scythe.
Black is simply Goku, but better.
And that's why he's being downplayed here. Note that Black being able to beat Goku even after ep. 65 doesn't mean that Fused Zamasu is somehow weaker. Fused Zamasu is still the strongest fighter up to that point (and the strongest in general bar Zeno, once he goes into Infinite mode), and the one with the highest potential in the entire Franchise (literally Zeno himself had to intervene to stop him), and he's obviously astronomically stronger than Black, who is part of him.
But, at the same time, we cannot ignore the hype, statements, feats Black got. By saying "Goku could beat Black after ep. 65", you are asking me to ignore the fact that a casual Black who was standing idle, letting his clones do all the work, was casually stomping the two Saiyans.
I can't remember how this convo started and I think I joined midway, but I simply disagree with the idea that whatever boost Goku got is meaningful and puts him above Black. Because, remember, we never saw what Black could do with his full power, after his power "surpassed his own comprehension". By his own admission, HE WASN'T FIGHTING, because he didn't want to yet. And yet he was still stomping them simply by virtue of being there, creating those clones and that Rift.
Fused Zamasu is also being downplayed here btw. I remember that you or someone else claimed that Goku beat Fused Zamasu, but this never happened. Goku gave everything he could and all he accomplished was hurting Zamasu's face. At the end of the fight, Goku can't even transform or stand up, while Fused Zamasu is flying and exploding in power.
So in the end the crux of your argument is wrong. You tried to argue Goku > Black and that Goku got a massive power boost, because he supposedly defeated Zamasu, but in the end the narrative makes it clear that he couldn't defeat Zamasu. He could only momentarily push him back. In the end he was still outclassed and overwhelmed. Just like SSB Vegeta and Future Trunks with the Father-Son Galick Gun.