That's interesting, I forgot about the GT Perfect Files, but they have some great info. I wonder if Super Saiyan 4 was also given it's name for marketing purposes because kids would see a higher number than 3 and assume it's more powerful. Obviously when Battle of Gods came around the Red form couldn't be called "Super Saiyan 4" as that would invalidate all official products using the GT form, so calling it and later Blue (at least initially, although it's name became too much of a mouthful) "God" forms would again make them sound superior to other forms. I'm kinda glad the name "Ultra Instinct" was given to a new form, as it's refreshing to see a transformation not just being called a "Super Saiyan" transformation out of convenience.Grimlock wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:55 pm Super Saiyan 4 isn't part of the Super Saiyan "spectrum" either. Its name was out of convenience. Like Super Saiyan God, it should have a different name to reflect that.
Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
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Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
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Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
I could see SSJ4 being called "True Saiyan" or "Saiyan Prime" or something like that, without the Super. SSJ4 was just an easier name since it's still the next evolution following SSJ3 (aside from Golden Oozaru).
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
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Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
SSJ4 name never made any sense compared to what that form truly was. Vegeta could achieve that without SSJ3 if he only had a tail. That already proves it has no connection to previous forms, at least not SSJ2 and SSJ3, as it still had SSJ aura. If SSJ Blue is a mix of SSJ and SSJG, SSJ4 could be considered mix of SSJ and Oozaru with Golden Oozaru being something like a transition form or incomplete form. It also has different requirements as Baby Vegeta couldn't achieve it despite being able to become Golden Oozaru.
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Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
I think "Super Saiyan Ape" would have sufficed. It did require unlocking Super Saiyan to achieve, after all.
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Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
Or go with a name they came up for limit breaker version of SSJ4 in GT, that is "Super Full Power Saiyan 4", just without "4" at the end.PurestEvil wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:29 pm I think "Super Saiyan Ape" would have sufficed. It did require unlocking Super Saiyan to achieve, after all.
Although that would collide a lot with Broly's new "Super Saiyan Full Power" form, but well, they would probably come with different name for Broly then.
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Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
I feel like Super Full Power Saiyan would get confused with Goku and Gohan's "relaxed" SSJ form. Super Saiyan Ape would be an alternate name used for Golden Oozaru. I can see why they just went with SSJ4 because it's the simplest way of marking it.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
Goku never claimed that Blue was the Super Saiyan form of Super Saiyan God tho. There are some supplementary materials that imply this or even directly claim that this is the case, but the show (or the manga) never claims it that way. The statement given in the movie / anime is very straighforwardDragon Ball Ireland wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:19 pm
Because "Super Saiyan God" implies the Red haired form is a Super Saiyan form in of itself rather than a Saiyan with god Ki. For Blue to be Super Saiyan stacked on top of that that would make it the Super Saiyan state of another Super Saiyan form. It would be like creating a new transformation with the bodily features of Super Saiyan 4 but with a new hair colour and aura and calling it "Super Saiyan 4 Super Saiyan". That's why the God forms are no longer distinct. Blue made it less about divine power and more about further progressions of raw strength like the original yellow haired Super Saiyan forms.
The Blue form is what happens when a Saiyan obtains the power of the Super Saiyan God and transforms into a Super Saiyan. I think this has clearly different implications than saying that Blue is SS stacked on top of the God form.
Super Saiyan God is a form of its own, it's different than the Golden haired Super Saiyan, so basically Super Saiyan Blue is what happened when that God power is mixed with the power of the original SS transformation. These are two different beasts combined, BUT NOT two transformations stacked on top of each other, which seems fine to me and makes sense actually. I can see ''Super Saiyan of the Super Saiyan'' sounding more confusing or weird, but it's not the case with Blue
Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
Or Super Saiyan Primeival or Super Saiyan Primal. But yeah its not part of the 'proper' Super Saiyan line. Its still a Super Saiyan form just not part of the main Super Saiyan line.PurestEvil wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:29 pm I think "Super Saiyan Ape" would have sufficed. It did require unlocking Super Saiyan to achieve, after all.
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Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
I like the sound of Super Saiyan Primal.
Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
Me too. I think someone else came up with the name on here I just can't remember who.
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Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
What would be the proper Japanese term for “primal/primeval”?
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Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
Because it isn't. It's a "Super" Saiyan. not a Super Saiyan form. SSB is a Super Saiyan form though. The regular Super Saiyan form, only applied to a Saiyan with god ki.
How its named is not really relevant to what the form is. Super Saiyan God is a Saiyan with God ki. It's not a "Super Saiyan" transformation.Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:19 pmBecause "Super Saiyan God" implies the Red haired form is a Super Saiyan form in of itself rather than a Saiyan with god Ki.
I'll leave the sense of nomenclature and respective choice of adjectives to Toriyama. How it's named is completely irrelevant to the argument although it does corroborate what I've said.Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:19 pmThats why it doesn't make sense they called the Red form "Super Saiyan" God.
Super Saiyan God = Saiyan with god ki
Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with god ki
No, it does not imply that. Super is just an adjective, "Super Saiyan God" is a more impactful name than just "Saiyan God". The choice of nomenclature is perfectly understandable even though it's a bit convoluted.Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:19 pmThe name implies it's a part of the original Super Saiyan spectrum (which includes all the Yellow forms and Super Saiyan 4), which it can't be if it's only a Saiyan with God ki.
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Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
Luso Saiyan, I think we will need to agree to disagree on this one having stated all our points. Despite not sharing them, I do respect the opinions you've expressed, but I don't think we can take this discussion any further.
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Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
For SS4, I would've actually preferred it to be called Legendary SS.
It checks every box of the legend. It requires certain circumstances like having enough power to unlock SS, but also have your tail intact which is sort of impossible because the more a saiyan fights, more chances of losing their tail, and the stronger they are, fewer chances of regrowining it.
No saiyan was strong enough to unlock SS while still having their tails, and also they need to be able to control the ape form, otherwise they would be just a golden ape running around. It's a pretty difficult form to unlock. Boy, I can see SS4 Vegeta vs Freeza on Namek, or against the androids.
It checks every box of the legend. It requires certain circumstances like having enough power to unlock SS, but also have your tail intact which is sort of impossible because the more a saiyan fights, more chances of losing their tail, and the stronger they are, fewer chances of regrowining it.
No saiyan was strong enough to unlock SS while still having their tails, and also they need to be able to control the ape form, otherwise they would be just a golden ape running around. It's a pretty difficult form to unlock. Boy, I can see SS4 Vegeta vs Freeza on Namek, or against the androids.
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Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
Fun fact, polish version of GT, which was based on french release, stated Goku achieved SSJ4 on Namek against FriezaKoitsukai wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:23 am For SS4, I would've actually preferred it to be called Legendary SS.
It checks every box of the legend. It requires certain circumstances like having enough power to unlock SS, but also have your tail intact which is sort of impossible because the more a saiyan fights, more chances of losing their tail, and the stronger they are, fewer chances of regrowining it.
No saiyan was strong enough to unlock SS while still having their tails, and also they need to be able to control the ape form, otherwise they would be just a golden ape running around. It's a pretty difficult form to unlock. Boy, I can see SS4 Vegeta vs Freeza on Namek, or against the androids.
Anyway, when Vegeta asked why he couldn't turn SSJ4 before even though he always controlled his transformation, Bulma said he probably wasn't strong enough yet. Hard to say what does it exactly mean, but it seems SSJ4 form also requires very high power to achieve, so perhaps Vegeta wouldn't be able to do that on Namek anyway even if he had a tail and could turn SSJ.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta
Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
I think she meant he wasn't even strong enough to go SS back when he still had his tail and had total control over his ohzaru form. He still had a long way to go until SS was unlocked. He lost his tail at 18,000... Goku unlocked SS at 3 M, Geets probably was around 5 when he went SS.sunsetshimmer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:30 amFun fact, polish version of GT, which was based on french release, stated Goku achieved SSJ4 on Namek against FriezaKoitsukai wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:23 am For SS4, I would've actually preferred it to be called Legendary SS.
It checks every box of the legend. It requires certain circumstances like having enough power to unlock SS, but also have your tail intact which is sort of impossible because the more a saiyan fights, more chances of losing their tail, and the stronger they are, fewer chances of regrowining it.
No saiyan was strong enough to unlock SS while still having their tails, and also they need to be able to control the ape form, otherwise they would be just a golden ape running around. It's a pretty difficult form to unlock. Boy, I can see SS4 Vegeta vs Freeza on Namek, or against the androids.
Anyway, when Vegeta asked why he couldn't turn SSJ4 before even though he always controlled his transformation, Bulma said he probably wasn't strong enough yet. Hard to say what does it exactly mean, but it seems SSJ4 form also requires very high power to achieve, so perhaps Vegeta wouldn't be able to do that on Namek anyway even if he had a tail and could turn SSJ.
It could also be that to turn golden ohzaru, the power needed to turn regular SS might not be enough, but I highly doubt this.
It's a bummer the tail thing, it's too fragile to survive the type of fights required to raise the PL enough in order to unlock SS and then unlock SS4.
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Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
Now you made me think about how cool would it be if Goku turned SSJ4 against Baby only because of some special circumstances like getting help from the same machine Baby did, but wouldn't be able to turn SSJ4 again until Syn Shenron when he would finally be strong enough to mantain it by himself. It would be like getting a sneak peek of final form much earlier on when character isn't ready to achieve it on his own. Kinda like Goku Jr. turned SSJ in TV special but didn't even remember that as he clearly wasn't ready for it. Or how false SSJ in Slug movie ended up to look like (even though it was meant to be actual SSJ during production).
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta
Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
We kinda got something like that with UI in the manga during the ToP. Although, it was more of a fluke in the anime.sunsetshimmer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:00 pmNow you made me think about how cool would it be if Goku turned SSJ4 against Baby only because of some special circumstances like getting help from the same machine Baby did, but wouldn't be able to turn SSJ4 again until Syn Shenron when he would finally be strong enough to mantain it by himself. It would be like getting a sneak peek of final form much earlier on when character isn't ready to achieve it on his own. Kinda like Goku Jr. turned SSJ in TV special but didn't even remember that as he clearly wasn't ready for it. Or how false SSJ in Slug movie ended up to look like (even though it was meant to be actual SSJ during production).
Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?
DBZ Broly was implied to still have his tail as I recall and his Bio-Broly clone also had his tail too. So the tail isn't a bummer IMO. I would love to see Super Saiyan 4 Limit Break go ever further and maybe rival other techniques of the gods.
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