Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

[VegettoEX]

The amount of enthusiasm surrounding this issue really speaks to the power of parasocial relationships. If you folks really want to get fired up about intellectual property issues and copyright, there are a lot more clear-cut, unjust and frankly more interesting cases out there.

Wow, pack it up guys, apparently we are not allowed to care about more than one issue at once

No one can stop anyone else from caring about things. A lot of the assumptions flying around don't really suggest a lot of familiarity with these issues though.

OK, so continue doing your part to educate, rather than tossing disingenuous distractions...?

(Agreed that it's absolute B.S. to dismiss the conversation outright. It's the same as we've seen in political/societal analysis within Dragon Ball discussions. Of course people care about other things and even these same issues on a larger scale and likely even participate in activism within those topics, but this is a Dragon Ball discussion board where we strictly enforce Dragon Ball-specific/related conversations, so what else are you honestly looking for here other than precisely what you're getting?)

[capsulecorp]

Wow, pack it up guys, apparently we are not allowed to care about more than one issue at once

No one can stop anyone else from caring about things. A lot of the assumptions flying around don't really suggest a lot of familiarity with these issues though.

OK, so continue doing your part to educate, rather than tossing disingenuous distractions...?

(Agreed that it's absolute B.S. to dismiss the conversation outright. It's the same as we've seen in political/societal analysis within Dragon Ball discussions. Of course people care about other things and even these same issues on a larger scale and likely even participate in activism within those topics, but this is a Dragon Ball discussion board where we strictly enforce Dragon Ball-specific/related conversations, so what else are you honestly looking for here other than precisely what you're getting?)

I don't think I'm qualified to educate but I can point people to some topics if they're interested in copyright issues.

- The history of sampling in music is fascinating and leads to many interesting lawsuits and agreements and conventions and genre shifts and so on. The history of rap music from the mid 00s to now was massively influenced by the legal and financial issues here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(music)

- The history of the Happy Birthday song and its use in film and television is funny and sad and demented

- The evolution of printing press technology and its effect on copying, distributing and modifying text is a massive rabbit hole that will put to rest any idea that these issues are particularly modern

My point was more about why this specific instance feels so important and outrageous to people, though, and I'm suggesting its because of the intense emotions that can be created by "parasocial relationships". Apologies if that seems dismissive, and maybe it is slightly dismissive, but I think there's a lot of hot air flying around and some of it SHOULD be dismissed.

[ABED]

Yeah? That’s basically what the YouTubers who focus their channels on discussing anime are doing.

That seems so ridiculous to me that one would think to make that their primary source of income or that there are enough people that give a damn about some random opinions on the internet that someone could make a living talking about what they like. I'm also suspicious that anyone is making an actual living like that and it's not just an extra source of income, but not the primary.

I would've said the same thing ... 10 years ago and even then I'd have been several years behind the curve. People aren't just making a living from fandom nowadays, they are making several livings. It's enough to displace whatever income they would've made at an average 9-5 a few times over.

On top of that these "influencers" provide at least thousands of dollars in free advertising to whatever they are featuring on their channels. Toei should probably be paying them.

I've seen a number of these videos and so many of them have so little of anything substantive to say on their subjects.

That's subjective. I would even say that you aren't the intended audience for that content. I used to watch a lot of DB content around 2015/2016. The only Dragon Ball Youtuber I keep up with now is MistareFusion because his stuff remains thought provoking to me. All that to say that, those Youtubers are still doing well and engaging tons of fans even if I don't watch them. They have a target audience who engages with the content like I used to. Those people find the substance they need in those vids.

They are making a living off of suckers.

I've learned more about DB on this forum for free than I did from any YouTuber.

Folks, remember when people became famous because they were skilled at something.

[Soppa Saia People]

what lmao, people have been famous for Being Famous for forever.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

They are making a living off of suckers.

I've learned more about DB on this forum for free than I did from any YouTuber.

Folks, remember when people became famous because they were skilled at something.

This is a grossly huge oversimplification and insult to these people.

Editing, scripting, team management, research, recording, all kinds of stuff going on BTS that you never see because these content creators want to give a streamlined end product that viewers can easily consume at their leisure. These are the kinds of homegrown skill sets that only professional entertainment studios eclipse in scope.

They're very hardly "unskilled", far from it. They're just putting in effort to create a full product rather than just lazily typing in text like us.

If it looks like a moderately edited video, weeks to months worth of effort has likely gone into it to edit, research, record, and put it all together within a tight schedule.

The only suckers are those who think all of this attention comes without putting in one's heart and soul into it. The rest of the industry already doesn't respect them despite how overqualified they are for the product they produce; they don't need uninformed people downplaying the actual work that goes into this stuff also insulting them.

[jjgp1112]

There are definitely way more "professional fans" these days, and that's quite frankly depressing.

[JulieYBM]

I think it is very depressing that we love in a world where monetizing our hobbies is a necessity to make a living. I'm happy for people who manage to at least spend their lives free from retail or corporate offices, though.

[capsulecorp]

They are making a living off of suckers.

I've learned more about DB on this forum for free than I did from any YouTuber.

Folks, remember when people became famous because they were skilled at something.

This is a grossly huge oversimplification and insult to these people.

Editing, scripting, team management, research, recording, all kinds of stuff going on BTS that you never see because these content creators want to give a streamlined end product that viewers can easily consume at their leisure. These are the kinds of homegrown skill sets that only professional entertainment studios eclipse in scope.

They're very hardly "unskilled", far from it. They're just putting in effort to create a full product rather than just lazily typing in text like us.

If it looks like a moderately edited video, weeks to months worth of effort has likely gone into it to edit, research, record, and put it all together within a tight schedule.

The only suckers are those who think all of this attention comes without putting in one's heart and soul into it. The rest of the industry already doesn't respect them despite how overqualified they are for the product they produce; they don't need uninformed people downplaying the actual work that goes into this stuff also insulting them.

I don't disagree that having charisma, pumping out videos regularly, and recording and editing them in a polished way requires a great deal of effort and skill. However, for me personally, those are not skills I particularly value. I value what's being said. A highly polished, well produced video is not interesting and important in and of itself, it's just a vehicle for ideas.

[WittyUsername]

They are making a living off of suckers.

I've learned more about DB on this forum for free than I did from any YouTuber.

Folks, remember when people became famous because they were skilled at something.

This is a grossly huge oversimplification and insult to these people.

Editing, scripting, team management, research, recording, all kinds of stuff going on BTS that you never see because these content creators want to give a streamlined end product that viewers can easily consume at their leisure. These are the kinds of homegrown skill sets that only professional entertainment studios eclipse in scope.

They're very hardly "unskilled", far from it. They're just putting in effort to create a full product rather than just lazily typing in text like us.

If it looks like a moderately edited video, weeks to months worth of effort has likely gone into it to edit, research, record, and put it all together within a tight schedule.

The only suckers are those who think all of this attention comes without putting in one's heart and soul into it. The rest of the industry already doesn't respect them despite how overqualified they are for the product they produce; they don't need uninformed people downplaying the actual work that goes into this stuff also insulting them.

That’s what I was about to say. These kinds of content creators may not be someone’s cup of tea, but dismissing them as a bunch of lazy unskilled hacks is pretty unfair, to say the least. Making video essays generally isn’t as simple as sitting in front of a microphone and babbling on about whatever comes to your mind. Just because someone isn’t working a 9 to 5 job in an office or in construction doesn’t mean that what they’re doing requires no work at all. Anyone who claims that just sounds like an old man yelling at clouds.

[ABED]

They are making a living off of suckers.

I've learned more about DB on this forum for free than I did from any YouTuber.

Folks, remember when people became famous because they were skilled at something.

This is a grossly huge oversimplification and insult to these people.

Editing, scripting, team management, research, recording, all kinds of stuff going on BTS that you never see because these content creators want to give a streamlined end product that viewers can easily consume at their leisure. These are the kinds of homegrown skill sets that only professional entertainment studios eclipse in scope.

They're very hardly "unskilled", far from it. They're just putting in effort to create a full product rather than just lazily typing in text like us.

If it looks like a moderately edited video, weeks to months worth of effort has likely gone into it to edit, research, record, and put it all together within a tight schedule.

The only suckers are those who think all of this attention comes without putting in one's heart and soul into it. The rest of the industry already doesn't respect them despite how overqualified they are for the product they produce; they don't need uninformed people downplaying the actual work that goes into this stuff also insulting them.

It was meant to insult them. I don't find much value in what they do, certainly not enough that they should be able to sustain a living based on how little value they actually create. Most of the stuff ever made is garbage, why should this be any different.

Instead of doing all that for stories they didn't create, how about they do original stuff?

Putting their heart and soul into it? They're talking about pop culture. Professional critics have a hard enough time scratching out a living and they contribute to the conversation in meaningful ways.

I will downplay it as I don't respect it.

And bullshit that I'm oversimplifying. So little of those videos out there have much of value to say. And I am informed. You act like I don't know this just because I don't agree with your assessment. The amount of work they put in doesn't equal the amount of value they create.

I think it is very depressing that we love in a world where monetizing our hobbies is a necessity to make a living.

You think it's depressing people have to make a living. You likely don't see the irony, but had Toriyama not monetized his hobby, this forum wouldn't exist.

[JulieYBM]

Even people who make things that suck deserve a roof over their heads, food in their cupboards and leisure time. In fact, every sentient being deserves that.

[ABED]

And in order to do so, people have to work to create those roofs, food, and enough wealth they can afford to take leisure. That's just a fact of reality.

It's nice that people have enough time to put together these video essays, but odd that people find enough value in them that it can provide an actual living for some folk.

[JulieYBM]

And in order to do so, people have to work to create those roofs, food, and enough wealth they can afford to take leisure. That's just a fact of reality.

People will work for the sake of having something to do, so we're not in danger of societal collapse because we've guaranteed food, housing and leisure.

[ABED]

And in order to do so, people have to work to create those roofs, food, and enough wealth they can afford to take leisure. That's just a fact of reality.

People will work for the sake of having something to do, so we're not in danger of societal collapse because we've guaranteed food, housing and leisure.

That's not remotely close to being true. What are you talking about? Never mind, this is off topic.

[NeverRamza]

It was meant to insult them. I don't find much value in what they do, certainly not enough that they should be able to sustain a living based on how little value they actually create. Most of the stuff ever made is garbage, why should this be any different.

Instead of doing all that for stories they didn't create, how about they do original stuff?

Putting their heart and soul into it? They're talking about pop culture. Professional critics have a hard enough time scratching out a living and they contribute to the conversation in meaningful ways.

I will downplay it as I don't respect it.

And bullshit that I'm oversimplifying. So little of those videos out there have much of value to say. And I am informed. You act like I don't know this just because I don't agree with your assessment. The amount of work they put in doesn't equal the amount of value they create.

Why do you think that your own subjective measurement of value is superior to others who may really enjoy YouTube content? Are we going off how much joy the content brings to other people on average? Whether or not it helps them through rough times? Whether or not it manages to increase their IQ through long-term exposure? Whether or not it helps them get dates?

I'm not sure why you're indicating that most stuff ever made is garbage. We're talking about people who make significant money from YouTube content. That's less than 1% of creators. We've already removed "most stuff" from the conversation. Insulting most stuff though is still strange. Would you insult your grandparent's love for basket weaving just because those baskets could probably been a little better? Now before you say something like "but at least those baskets still have value, they can hold things!", remember, people can be positively impacted by user-generated Internet content as well. The people who make bland YouTube content might really enjoy it. Also, remember, you're currently on the Internet interacting with user-generated content. What you're doing right now is not far off from what you're insulting.

There's enough room for both original content and derivative/transformative content. We can have both. I don't think we're in short-supply of either. There is more choice in media than ever before. Every week people recommend to me shows, movies, books, and music that I won't be able to get to.

If you don't think people put their heart and soul into content, that's just ignorance. Research, production, delivery, execution, consistency, marketing, and dealing with feedback is not something most people can do. A lot of people treat their video content like a craft and think seriously about each of these elements. Most people aren't able to do it well enough to make a living as well.

Content creator burn-out and an algorithm that prioritizes speed are worthy discussions. However, that doesn't mean the content itself is bad or deserves insulting.

[JulieYBM]

The demands of the algorithm to constantly churn out content is unfair and harsh. It creates a harmful environment that leads to health issues and that is bad. I definitely think that the system should be altered to prevent that. Jobs are not a game where nothing important is on the line. A human's ability to live a healthy life should not be threatened.

[ABED]

If you don't think people put their heart and soul into content, that's just ignorance.

I don't care how much of their heart and soul they put in if I don't like what they create. It's irrelevant to whether I enjoy it.

Would you insult your grandparent's love for basket weaving just because those baskets could probably been a little better? Now before you say something like "but at least those baskets still have value, they can hold things!", remember, people can be positively impacted by user-generated Internet content as well. The people who make bland YouTube content might really enjoy it. Also, remember, you're currently on the Internet interacting with user-generated content. What you're doing right now is not far off from what you're insulting.

First, they aren't my grandparents and I have no emotional attachment to them. Two, at least the baskets are an individual creation, and not talking about someone else's creation in an less than substantive manner.

And what I'm doing here is interacting with people who talk about stuff as a hobby. They aren't looking for clicks and to make a living off someone else's work.

I've seen "Totally Not Mark"'s video about Raimi's Spider-Man movies and I'm baffled that he's able to make a living with his videos. I didn't see anything out of it I haven't read from a bunch of free articles I could find on the subject.

I've seen a handful of videos on youtube that I find valuable but they come from professional movie critics, writers, screenwriters, documentarians, people in the film industry, etc.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The ultimate kicker of things is that the current system allows a company to simply shut down the entirety of someone's work at a whim, without any kind of reconciliation or grace period.

Modern media has far surpassed the old standards; no content can ever be wholly original, hence embracing building a platform around existing IPs at large. But modern copyrighting policies haven't caught up. A content creator can't be expected to adhere to such strict guidelines in this day and age, any more so than the average school student or college professor.

And Japan is one of the worst offenders at the moment with how archaic and pro-creator their policies are, which is reflective of a larger Japanese paradigm where the old order can't be questioned lest one be seen as disrespectful and disruptive to societal stability.

I hope TNM's case will act as a wake-up call, a more unified and visible cause through which serious discussion can be enacted by larger and more influential parties to re-examine and change up current copyright/fair use policies to better fit modern media.

[capsulecorp]

The ultimate kicker of things is that the current system allows a company to simply shut down the entirety of someone's work at a whim, without any kind of reconciliation or grace period.

Modern media has far surpassed the old standards; no content can ever be wholly original, hence embracing building a platform around existing IPs at large. But modern copyrighting policies haven't caught up. A content creator can't be expected to adhere to such strict guidelines in this day and age, any more so than the average school student or college professor.

And Japan is one of the worst offenders at the moment with how archaic and pro-creator their policies are, which is reflective of a larger Japanese paradigm where the old order can't be questioned lest one be seen as disrespectful and disruptive to societal stability.

I hope TNM's case will act as a wake-up call, a more unified and visible cause through which serious discussion can be enacted by larger and more influential parties to re-examine and change up current copyright/fair use policies to better fit modern media.

I wouldn't expect this to lead to some wide societal change. Copyright law has perpetuated far greater injustices to far more noteworthy and accomplished creators. ONLY NOW are the issues surrounding the creators of Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, Batman, Superman and so on becoming more widely known, to say nothing about any of them being addressed.

I hope you're right though! These laws do need to be revised... though I would personally prefer them to be revised to benefit the rights of creators, rather than content creators, since I personally value the work of artists more than personalities or even analysts and comedians.

[NeverRamza]

I don't care how much of their heart and soul they put in if I don't like what they create. It's irrelevant to whether I enjoy it.

Gotcha, so you do not care. Before you were disregarding the idea that YouTube content creators may put their heart and soul into their work so I'm glad you walked that back. Nobody in this entire thread has been trying to tell you to enjoy specific works.

First, they aren't my grandparents and I have no emotional attachment to them. Two, at least the baskets are an individual creation, and not talking about someone else's creation in an less than substantive manner.

Well, I didn't expect you to have real emotional attachment to my hypothetical grandparents but I must say, I still feel little disappointed.

And what I'm doing here is interacting with people who talk about stuff as a hobby. They aren't looking for clicks and to make a living off someone else's work.

If someone can talk about someone else's creation and manage to get lots of other people listening, by the very nature of the phenomenon occurring, that's substantive. Also, again, the process of getting to that point took research, production work, potentially vocal training, consideration of execution, etc.

YouTube people often base their work around a hobby. Making a living off of the work doesn't make the work inherently bad or of any less value.

I've seen "Totally Not Mark"'s video about Raimi's Spider-Man movies and I'm baffled that he's able to make a living with his videos. I didn't see anything out of it I haven't read from a bunch of free articles I could find on the subject.

I've seen a handful of videos on youtube that I find valuable but they come from professional movie critics, writers, screenwriters, documentarians, people in the film industry, etc.

That's fantastic and I'm glad we're able to come together and agree on this point. Some people make some awesome shit on YouTube. Often, they tend to be the very same people that have multiple doors open so that they can do lots of other cool shit as well. Now let's not dig on the amateurs and enthusiasts who might not be quite at that level but are still working hard.