Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

[Yuji]

Dragon Ball isn't public domain but it damn well should be.

Yes, but it can only be accessed by certain people. After all, you wouldn't want Ultimate Super Saiyan Instinct Ego Evolved Limit Breaker Kaioken times 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Goku fighting Zeno's true form to become an official thing, would you?

The point of something being public domain is that there's no such thing as an official thing.

[VegettoEX]

Yes, but it can only be accessed by certain people. After all, you wouldn't want Ultimate Super Saiyan Instinct Ego Evolved Limit Breaker Kaioken times 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Goku fighting Zeno's true form to become an official thing, would you?

Who cares, though? Someone could write that right now, regardless of the fact that it isn't public domain. Even if it were to be public domain, no publisher would be obligated to release it, you wouldn't be obligated to read it, and I wouldn't be obligated to categorize it here on Kanzenshuu.

On a fairly broad level people already can't figure out what kind of authority level they want (see: me reading the same arguments about the "credibility of V-Jump" for over 20 years), and this kind of situation wouldn't even remotely muddle those waters: it would be a non-issue entirely, the same way no-one cares about Joe Schmo's Dracula stories.

Also the melodrama is getting to me at this point. He should have been aware of potential repercussions when choosing this job. An issue I always felt when watching his videos is that he always felt too self-important and these videos are proving it. He's gained more notoriety from this and he's still free to make videos without using images or footage, as well as making videos on other properties.

I think it's still entirely worth having these conversations independent of this specific person and their specific products and their specific situation. Folks understand so little about how everything works, and as I mentioned before, this at least gets some brain wheels churning.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Updates from Totally Not Mark: 19 of his videos got relinquished by Toei, got in touch with some people at YouTube, and wrote a letter to both Toei Animation and to Eiichiro Oda himself, in Japanese. Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAuWk8POxSQ

Hey, that's awesome to see.

And appealing to the top brass in their own language (and I mean in terms of a direct letter of appeal, and not just being in Japanese) should help take things further.

At least we're seeing progress being made. I wonder though what, if any, kind of response YouTube might have to this whole ordeal and how it transpired.

[Aim]

Made a post about this kind of stuff a while back.

Fan art is generally allowed in the manga world to certain extent (for example Comiket wouldn't really be possible if doujinshi based on the existing series would be banned). It keeps the fans happy, and doesn't do that much harm since for example a porn parody generally isn't sold by the same number of units as a regular tankoubon would. Out of sight, out of mind.

Yes. In specific, Japanese rights holders and Japanese fandoms generally operate with an unofficial agreement that while all these fan products aren't actually legal, as long as the fans keep to their fandom circles and in general keep quiet about their works, the rights holders will just pretend they never see any and everyone's happy. Fans get to make fanwork and share it with other fans without the rights holders coming knocking, and the rights holders get happy fans that want to support the franchise with their money.

What TFS is doing is so RIDICULOUSLY far removed from what's considered normal courtesy and acceptable fan behavior there's absolutely no reason for Toei to treat them with anything but contempt. Had they been located in Japan and thus caught Toei's eye earlier, they'd have been shut down HARD long ago with how they're acting.

While you should give the entire thread a read, these "creators" are most likely behaving in ways both Toei and any other Japanese entity considers extremely inappropriate, so they should've probably done their research before gambling their income on making money off other people's copyright. I have a feeling exactly 0 of these creators are actually Japanese.

I don’t understand, besides BaitScape, how was Mark acting inappropriate? I watched some of his videos years ago and can’t think of anything he did wrong.

[Aim]

Can someone explain to me what Toei is probably thinking? Looking at this thread apparently they reached out to him to have him do promotions.

I just don’t understand how reviews is crossing the line, is there something else we’re missing?

[Aim]

I'm certainly trying to do my part, but I'm just one dude and no-one cares what I say!

I care, Mike

[Adamant]

Made a post about this kind of stuff a while back.

Yes. In specific, Japanese rights holders and Japanese fandoms generally operate with an unofficial agreement that while all these fan products aren't actually legal, as long as the fans keep to their fandom circles and in general keep quiet about their works, the rights holders will just pretend they never see any and everyone's happy. Fans get to make fanwork and share it with other fans without the rights holders coming knocking, and the rights holders get happy fans that want to support the franchise with their money.

What TFS is doing is so RIDICULOUSLY far removed from what's considered normal courtesy and acceptable fan behavior there's absolutely no reason for Toei to treat them with anything but contempt. Had they been located in Japan and thus caught Toei's eye earlier, they'd have been shut down HARD long ago with how they're acting.

While you should give the entire thread a read, these "creators" are most likely behaving in ways both Toei and any other Japanese entity considers extremely inappropriate, so they should've probably done their research before gambling their income on making money off other people's copyright. I have a feeling exactly 0 of these creators are actually Japanese.

I don’t understand, besides BaitScape, how was Mark acting inappropriate? I watched some of his videos years ago and can’t think of anything he did wrong.

I have absolutely zero idea who this guy is aside from what I've read in this thread, but from what I understand he posted clips from the show and talked about them. It's the first part of that that'd be "acting inappropriate".

Amusingly enough people defending him seem to be simultaneously arguing that what he says is so valuable and insightful this needs to be his job and not his hobby, but ALSO that what he says is so unengaging nobody would care about it if he didn't include all those video clips.

[Aim]

I've learned more about DB on this forum for free than I did from any YouTuber.

Folks, remember when people became famous because they were skilled at something.

All due respect to you, but you've entered old person yelling at clouds territory. There are some folks on this forum who have Youtube channels and use that to connect with many more people.

And I wouldn't call the DB Youtubers, famous per se, but they do have influence. And what's more, they got their followers through the knowledge they possess, through their personalities, and by leveraging both in a way that connects with hundreds of thousands if not millions of people. I would say that that does require some skill. At the very least, it's something most of us don't possess.

They are making a living off of suckers.

How so? Their content is free. And if people join a Patreon or Subscribestar or whatever it's because they like a creator and wish to support them.

Stop with that old man yelling at clouds nonsense.

I know how Patreon works. I''m saying none of those people have any knowledge that's worth paying for. In case you're thinking "well, their viewers think they do" I understand it, I just don't agree.

Saying that people should just make their own art, instead of discussing other people’s art, is an extremely reductive view.

Okay, what's the more nuanced take? Because videos from "Totally Not Mark" are not insightful enough that they should be garnering an audience big enough to sustain a living.

Absolute load of it. I watched his videos years[/i ago and it was some of the most insightful analysis besides Mistare. I remember him bringing up things most people probably don’t know, even small details like how Toriyama made Son Goku’s eyes enclosed in Super Saiyan to show a more drastic change, all villains had enclosed eyes.

It’s hard enough to live in this world, how dare you suggest someone’s livelihood being taken away is okay because you deem their work none beneficial. This is like saying “oh, you lost your job? You should have thought about that before automation took over”, it’s just such a shitty thing to do.

[Aim]

Made a post about this kind of stuff a while back.



While you should give the entire thread a read, these "creators" are most likely behaving in ways both Toei and any other Japanese entity considers extremely inappropriate, so they should've probably done their research before gambling their income on making money off other people's copyright. I have a feeling exactly 0 of these creators are actually Japanese.

I don’t understand, besides BaitScape, how was Mark acting inappropriate? I watched some of his videos years ago and can’t think of anything he did wrong.

I have absolutely zero idea who this guy is aside from what I've read in this thread, but from what I understand he posted clips from the show and talked about them. It's the first part of that that'd be "acting inappropriate".

Amusingly enough people defending him seem to be simultaneously arguing that what he says is so valuable and insightful this needs to be his job and not his hobby, but ALSO that what he says is so unengaging nobody would care about it if he didn't include all those video clips.

He may have included clips in analysing the Japanese and English dub and comparing them. Though yeah, he doesn’t need to actually add any footage of the show to his videos.

[NeverRamza]

There's a certain perceived standard that exists that has been fleshed out over the last 10 years in regards to what generally is allowed on websites (including video streaming) and what isn't. The current standard, when no one is abusing it (which I realize is subjective and susceptible to debate but hang with me here), seems to generally work. The fan-created derivative works do not act as a replacement to the original work but instead as a supplement, promotion, or critique. Everybody who gets it generally benefits. We like that because it promotes expression, potentially interesting content, and the original work as well.

TO BE CLEAR: I'm not talking about the borderline cases. We can have individual discussions about those. I'm talking the reviews and commentaries that live up to the standards of most reasonable people.

It feels to me that this push against Toei in this instance is a trickle down of some of the other anti-establishment sentiments people have had lately, where people do not like abusive behavior of powerful people in corporations. Obviously this is not as extreme as workplace harassment, worker exploitation, etc. but it is an overstepping of the equilibrium that people do not like. I'd argue that this news story appearing on a website like Kotaku is evidence of this. This is likely a pet issue to many people independent of any individual creator.

Some people have been interpreting this as purely the effect of parasocial relationships or that we all most love Totally Not Mark. For the record, I never even heard of the guy prior to this issue, but what I do support is the continued balance of the current informal system that exists (while open to the argument of tweaks) and that certain companies have had a history of painting with a broad brush and pissing off fans to the benefit of no one. This seems to be a particular problem with anime companies on YouTube. Full episodes get left up while critiques using very little material get taken down. I talked about earlier in this thread how I at one point created purely positive reviews of anime shows I loved because I wanted to spread the word and my shit got copyright struck to hell and back for just a small collection of screenshots. That really sucked and I quit making those videos because I didn't want to deal with the headache. It did no one any good, I wasn't monetizing anything, and based on the many comments, people were constantly letting me know that I was introducing them to some cool new old shit. I would love for there to be change for the better where fans would ultimately improve the industry and fandom. I want to support the industry as well in a way that I know is effective. Also, while not as poetic, more shallow hang-out content can bring a lot of people enjoyment and I stand just as firmly behind that as well.

[ABED]

It’s hard enough to live in this world, how dare you suggest someone’s livelihood being taken away is okay because you deem their work none beneficial. This is like saying “oh, you lost your job? You should have thought about that before automation took over”, it’s just such a shitty thing to do.

I didn't suggest anything of the sort.

[Mr_CINDER]

I saw the video and its not a good look at all because as far as I know Its very against the Japanese culture of Saving Face. You cannot be so direct and openly insulting them and putting this kind of intimidation in Japanese culture, this is not the way to communicate with a traditionally Japanese company because in japan its all about respect.What is more scary in this video is that he is seemingly admitting legal faults here. This video greatly undermine the legal defence, it undermines his fair use defence.This kind of script is something a lawyer should never have agreed upon although I highly doubt this case will be going to court.

It sounds like Mark knows he made a mistake because about that concerts thing it was not TOEI it was toei related music company that told him to promote the concerts, I know its nit picky but as far as I know know that's not how a legal case should operate, He then also proceed to say upon hearing this many youtubers more specifically countless youtubers and millions of supporters joing him to not support any toei related products( including the upcoming DB film), which hurts his fair use defence if this case goes into court.

He asks them to basically drop their copyright outside of Japan this would mean anyone can use their IP not just him or they would have to pay millions in legal fees to write a system just for him or youtube or something which they will never do. Its a demand they would never be able to fulfill, its a really bad look from a legal standpoint.

[Majin Buu]

That said, I'm not upset. I'm simply annoyed, and it's not directed at even the youtubers themselves, it's their audience. So many times I hear about these "content creators" gaining a good sized audience. And their keen insight is "The Last Jedi ruined Luke and my childhood" or "You likely didn't notice that when Marty returns from 1955, Twin Pine Mall has become Lone Pine Mall."

I think the appeal for many in those audiences is that the youtuber is simply validating their own views and opinions.

It's not that "The Last Jedi ruined Luke and my childhood" is an insightful take, it's that the youtuber is saying something said audience member agrees with. It's not that "Twin Pine Mall became Lone Pine Mall" is an insightful observation, it's that the youtuber is pointing out something said audience member also noticed.

[ABED]

That said, I'm not upset. I'm simply annoyed, and it's not directed at even the youtubers themselves, it's their audience. So many times I hear about these "content creators" gaining a good sized audience. And their keen insight is "The Last Jedi ruined Luke and my childhood" or "You likely didn't notice that when Marty returns from 1955, Twin Pine Mall has become Lone Pine Mall."

I think the appeal for many in those audiences is that the youtuber is simply validating their own views and opinions.

It's not that "The Last Jedi ruined Luke and my childhood" is an insightful take, it's that the youtuber is saying something said audience member agrees with. It's not that "Twin Pine Mall became Lone Pine Mall" is an insightful observation, it's that the youtuber is pointing out something said audience member also noticed.

Interesting take I never considered.

[Jiren The Alpha]

I still don't get why he wanna to send a massage to Oda.

[Yuji]

I still don't get why he wanna to send a massage to Oda.

He's trying to connect with the higher-ups in order to get his problem solved but it comes across as tone-deaf.

[PurestEvil]

I still don't get why he wanna to send a massage to Oda.

Because Mark knew that he could get on Oda's good side by treating his back cramps

[Jiren The Alpha]

I still don't get why he wanna to send a massage to Oda.

Because Mark knew that he could get on Oda's good side by treating his back cramps

So he doesn't wanna help Toriyama with his back cramps, what a fake Dragon Ball fan

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

There's definitely elements of sheer desperation given how close it is to the holidays and having to try to work something out in the immediate moment for all his employees at the moment and his own family. The stresses of everything going on all at once is already killing him.

This was a bad move to spring on someone so close to the holiday weeks.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Because Mark knew that he could get on Oda's good side by treating his back cramps

How could that help when Oda doesn't own the rights to anything One Piece anime?