Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

[ABED]

Goku definitely cares a little bit about external validation or else he wouldn't like tournaments so much. He may not care about the broader public but having some grand authority declaring him the strongest is something he would enjoy. He seems to prefer fighting people in a tournament setting above all else.

It's not about external validation. He wants to be the best. He knows he's the best when he faces and defeats the best. He's not looking for acknowledgement. He likes fighting in a tournament because it's a safe way to get quality fights. He doesn't care about some authority telling him he's the strongest.

Anyway Zamasu may technically be "pure" by the logic of DB world but keep in mind, this is also a world that says Vegeta is a good man when he's brought back to life by the DB's during the battle against Kid Buu.

[Yuji]

Goku definitely cares a little bit about external validation or else he wouldn't like tournaments so much. He may not care about the broader public but having some grand authority declaring him the strongest is something he would enjoy. He seems to prefer fighting people in a tournament setting above all else.

It's not about external validation. He wants to be the best. He knows he's the best when he faces and defeats the best. He's not looking for acknowledgement. He likes fighting in a tournament because it's a safe way to get quality fights. He doesn't care about some authority telling him he's the strongest.

Anyway Zamasu may technically be "pure" by the logic of DB world but keep in mind, this is also a world that says Vegeta is a good man when he's brought back to life by the DB's during the battle against Kid Buu.

Be that as it may, he still holds the authority of the tournament in high regard. He could easily argue that he won against Jackie Chun or Tenshinhan but accepts his loss because the announcer declared he lost.

[capsulecorp]

No, this is a mistake. Even Hitler loved his dog.

Hitler knew what he was doing was wrong. He outright tried to invade the world and infringe on others freedoms. Nazi ideology is essentially being willingly ignorant. Seeing women as second grade human beings, people of your species is evil in of itself.

Zamasu just saw planets that had war and other awful events, Hitler saw a group of people and vowed to exterminate them based on immutable characteristics. Not to mention the evil experiments.

I don't follow the distinction you're trying to make here. It seems to me both Zamasu and Hitler SHOULD have known what they were doing was wrong, but due to their diseased, deluded ideologies, either failed to see or convinced themselves that they were right. That's not purity.

Anyway, I don't think the idea that some are playing with here, conflating purity of heart (canonically a characteristic of goku, (young) chichi) with conviction (arguably a characteristic of Vegeta, Frieza and Zamasu), makes much sense. "Pure of heart" doesn't necessarily mean "good" but I don't think there's much evidence that it can include "pure evil". It's likely that this is just a misinterpretation, or even a typo.

[ABED]

Goku definitely cares a little bit about external validation or else he wouldn't like tournaments so much. He may not care about the broader public but having some grand authority declaring him the strongest is something he would enjoy. He seems to prefer fighting people in a tournament setting above all else.

It's not about external validation. He wants to be the best. He knows he's the best when he faces and defeats the best. He's not looking for acknowledgement. He likes fighting in a tournament because it's a safe way to get quality fights. He doesn't care about some authority telling him he's the strongest.

Anyway Zamasu may technically be "pure" by the logic of DB world but keep in mind, this is also a world that says Vegeta is a good man when he's brought back to life by the DB's during the battle against Kid Buu.

Be that as it may, he still holds the authority of the tournament in high regard. He could easily argue that he won against Jackie Chun or Tenshinhan but accepts his loss because the announcer declared he lost.

Yes, he holds the tournament rules reasonable and valid and judgments fair. Goku wouldn't argue he won because he didn't. They laid out the rules at the beginning, he agreed to them, and he lost fair and square.

[MyVisionity]

Anyway Zamasu may technically be "pure" by the logic of DB world but keep in mind, this is also a world that says Vegeta is a good man when he's brought back to life by the DB's during the battle against Kid Buu.

The Dragon Balls only resurrected the people that weren't "really bad". Vegeta easily wasn't "really bad" at that point. Porunga doesn't care about your past sins.

[Fionordequester]

My opinion is that Zamasu is "pure of heart"...in that he is the most vile person that has ever existed, in the entire franchise. He is to Dragon Ball what Satan is to real life.

Think about it. We have a divine being on our hands—one that has lived longer than any of us could ever imagine. He was created to be beautiful and pure—a being of creation who supports mortals, just as Gowasu does. Perhaps he WAS that, for a time.

But, something went horribly wrong—his heart turned. His compassion and love vanished (if indeed, he ever had any of the stuff). What was left in place was hatred—for he projected all of the worst qualities one could have onto the "lower beings" he was supposed to guide. Said hatred was so senseless, so profound, and so utterly beyond reason that it threatened reality itself.

And so, he murdered the very gods his plan was supposed to serve. He was like a KKK member who murdered every other race on the planet (including other Caucasians), so no one could stop them from killing black people.

Somewhere in that process, his state of being changed—became something alien to life itself. He grew stronger through pain & self-mutilation—experienced pleasure in it, instead of anguish. He would violate the laws of time & space—staying alive despite the death of his past self, and carelessly tore holes in reality via his scythe. He even denied death itself, both through the Super Dragon Balls, and through his merger with the universe.

This was Zamasu—more sadistic than Freeza, more cunning than Cell, and more unreasonable than Buu... And he won. He murdered every hero, violated the universe in shameful ways, and became something that could not be described as either alive nor dead. God himself had to step in for him to finally be eradicated—at the cost of all existence.

Zamasu was "pure of heart"—free from every redeeming quality possible. He is the one all past, and future, villains will be measured against.

[ABED]

Anyway Zamasu may technically be "pure" by the logic of DB world but keep in mind, this is also a world that says Vegeta is a good man when he's brought back to life by the DB's during the battle against Kid Buu.

The Dragon Balls only resurrected the people that weren't "really bad". Vegeta easily wasn't "really bad" at that point. Porunga doesn't care about your past sins.

His past of killing THOUSANDS over a pissing contest was only TWO days prior. Apparently mass murder doesn't make you truly bad.

[TobyS]

Yes.

It is Canonically stated that tea brewed by one pure of heart tastes delicious. Conversely, one brewed by someone with a conflicted heart is twisted and bad.

We see Gowasu enjoy the tea Zamasu gives him even after Zamasu decides to kill mortals, and we see Black and Zamasu enjoy the tea they brew, which implies it is the excellent tea typical of those pure of heart. So we can conclude that Zamasu still makes very good tea after he has decided to kill all mortals = good tea means someone is pure of heart = then someone is still considered pure of heart even if they decide to commit genocide.

So it would indeed appear to be the case.

What people here might ignore is that "pure of heart" doesn't necessarily/always/strictly mean good. It can mean enlightened or completely devoted to his cause.

To this day, Zamasu is the only villain that Goku could never sympathize with and never attempted to talk with and straight up wanted to kill and keep dead. Every time Gowasu attempted to reach out to him, it failed completely. Zamasu was completely devoted to his cause and ideals and never ONCE, EVER, showed remorse or regret for his actions and no one could ever convince him of anything, it is explicitly stated that he was "intoxicated by himself"; so he would only listen and care about himself.

^ This is the take-away here.

So this might be a potential explanation as to why he is considered Pure of heart despite the genocide of mortals. It doesn't necessarily have to do with GOOD, as much as it has to do with CONVICTION/WILL, and it can't be denied that Zamasu's will is unbreakable. Zamasu literally returned from beyond the grave to merge with the Cosmos and become the incarnation of Justice and Order, Goku explicitly mentions how "this guy [Zamasu] NEVER QUITS", if this doesn't prove that his conviction/will are second to none, I don't know what does.

That tea test is anime only shit no?

[SupremeKai25]

That tea test is anime only shit no?

You really had to remind everyone of your anime hate boner

[Kamiccolo9]

Seems to me the most obvious answer is that Gowasu was just wrong. That was a trend in the arc, as I recall.

[Seekeroftruth]

So I came across this a while back, apparently Dragon Ball Fusions lists Zamasu as having a pure heart.

I know games don’t count but it got me thinking, Zamasu essentially was pure of heart, he genuinely believed what he was doing was ‘justice’. So Goku Black and co essentially are evil in the eyes of Trunks, but to them it’s the mortals who are evil.

Also makes me think possibly that Goku Black would be able to bounce back the Genki-Dama.

Thoughts?

Humans are scumbags, so yes Zamasu has a point.

[TobyS]

That tea test is anime only shit no?

You really had to remind everyone of your anime hate boner

It's not the idea of the guy/s who created him and it's also stupid. It's the teas one job and it doesn't work.

He might have had drive and a consistent ideology, albeit a baseless stupid shallow racist one, but none of that is purity. It's not even pure evil like buu or a demon or vegeta claims to be when he goes SS. He just a space Nazi, but with worse clothes.

Also I don't hate the anime, I'm sure it's great for small children and some of the nonsensical power scaling and bad writing led to moments that were very visually impressive.

I used to watch it see really drunk in the early hours of sunday morning after a night out if I didn't pull. so I guess that's why I liked it.

I just think the manga is much better AND undeniably closer the the original authors artistic vision.

[SupremeKai25]

That tea test is anime only shit no?

You really had to remind everyone of your anime hate boner

It's not the idea of the guy/s who created him and it's also stupid. It's the teas one job and it doesn't work.

He might have had drive and a consistent ideology, albeit a baseless stupid shallow racist one, but none of that is purity. It's not even pure evil like buu or a demon or vegeta claims to be when he goes SS. He just a space Nazi, but with worse clothes.

Also I don't hate the anime, I'm sure it's great for small children and some of the nonsensical power scaling and bad writing led to moments that were very visually impressive.

I used to watch it see really drunk in the early hours of sunday morning after a night out if I didn't pull. so I guess that's why I liked it.

I just think the manga is much better AND undeniably closer the the original authors artistic vision.

Even then I don't see what's wrong with the tea scene.

It might not have been thought up by Toriyama, but that's not surprising, since Toriyama only came up with a few bullet points, so nothing too specific or detailed, obviously he's not going to include the details in how Zamasu's "fall from grace" (so to speak) would be portrayed. The creation of all Super characters is a "team effort", with Toriyama coming up with bullet points and then the other writers working from there to create the character they want.

And actually I would say that the tea symbology is very fascinating. Especially in how it relates with the idea of mental clarity and enlightenment. How the tea is twisted, murky, fogged when Zamasu's mind is also confused and in doubt about what to do with mortals. And how the tea becomes clear once Zamasu's mind is finally free from any doubt and knows with certainty what must be done (destroy mortals).

but none of that is purity.

Actually I would say that that is precisely "purity". Fionordequester summed up my thoughts very well, when he compared Zamasu to Satan.

Like Satan, Zamasu also started out as a benevolent creature, a creature of beauty, grace, peace, only to become twisted and turn into the exact opposite. Satan became an ugly monster and the manifestation of evil, and Zamasu also became an ugly monster and the manifestation of evil (or what he perceived as "justice" and "order"):

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

With it being explicitly stated that Zamasu became "his own twisted idea of Justice and Order made manifest" (which was obviously pure evil), not too differently from how Satan became a pure evil creature and the symbol of all evil in the world...

[MyVisionity]

His past of killing THOUSANDS over a pissing contest was only TWO days prior. Apparently mass murder doesn't make you truly bad.

Not when it's over a pissing contest, it doesn't. It was all an act to get Goku to fight him. Even if he may have still had some evil within him, Vegeta was a good man at heart. Good enough for Porunga to allow his resurrection.

[LoganForkHands73]

His past of killing THOUSANDS over a pissing contest was only TWO days prior. Apparently mass murder doesn't make you truly bad.

Not when it's over a pissing contest, it doesn't. It was all an act to get Goku to fight him. Even if he may have still had some evil within him, Vegeta was a good man at heart. Good enough for Porunga to allow his resurrection.

It's a wee bit concerning when you say stuff like this. Vegeta's exact motivation in that scene is kinda immaterial, he still casually murdered a bunch of innocent people. Like, yeah, it's over the actions of a cartoon character, but it does not reflect well. He debatably redeemed himself for helping against Buu but that doesn't justify or erase his heinous crimes.

I used to watch it see really drunk in the early hours of sunday morning after a night out if I didn't pull. so I guess that's why I liked it.

Relatable. Vivid memories of watching the Freeza vs. Toppo fight with a splitting headache after a boozer. The part where Toppo crushes Freeza's skull physically hurt me.

[MyVisionity]

The entire point of the Majin Vegeta arc was to say that Vegeta was no longer evil. The Dark Prince was gone, and he won't coming back.

Toriyama tries to throw the audience off at first, making it look like Vegeta is susceptible to Bobbidi's magic and that he has returned to his evil ways. But the plot twist is that nope, Vegeta's a good guy now. He was just acting to fool Bobbidi and get Goku to fight him. Goku points this out clearly during the battle and Vegeta confirms it. Vegeta has changed, no matter how much he hates it. Porunga recognizes this clearly, and resurrects Vegeta accordingly.

No one is saying that his crimes are erased. Just that they don't necessarily determine whether or not he's good or bad. The time when his past sins will truly count is with Enma after death. Whether he belongs in Heaven or Hell is an entirely different question. Until then, Vegeta's one of the good guys.

[Aim]

That tea test is anime only shit no?

You really had to remind everyone of your anime hate boner

Because the anime is actually bad? Like, Toyotaro isn’t that creative don’t get me wrong, but Toei can’t and shouldn’t be doing an anime without source material. They did some things well, but the fact they made Goku Black’s form some version he made up for Super Saiyan shows they can’t even read Toriyama’s notes well.

[Aim]

No, this is a mistake. Even Hitler loved his dog.

Hitler knew what he was doing was wrong. He outright tried to invade the world and infringe on others freedoms. Nazi ideology is essentially being willingly ignorant. Seeing women as second grade human beings, people of your species is evil in of itself.

Zamasu just saw planets that had war and other awful events, Hitler saw a group of people and vowed to exterminate them based on immutable characteristics. Not to mention the evil experiments.

I don't follow the distinction you're trying to make here. It seems to me both Zamasu and Hitler SHOULD have known what they were doing was wrong, but due to their diseased, deluded ideologies, either failed to see or convinced themselves that they were right. That's not purity.

Anyway, I don't think the idea that some are playing with here, conflating purity of heart (canonically a characteristic of goku, (young) chichi) with conviction (arguably a characteristic of Vegeta, Frieza and Zamasu), makes much sense. "Pure of heart" doesn't necessarily mean "good" but I don't think there's much evidence that it can include "pure evil". It's likely that this is just a misinterpretation, or even a typo.

Yeah, others have pointed out in the manga specifically Black and Zamasu took pleasure in torturing Trunks and killing the humans. It makes me wonder if Toriyama’s main idea was to have Zamasu and Black’s reactions to what they were doing less “pleasurable” and more so that it’s something they need to do?

I can understand Black being more sadistic, as is the nature and biology of a Saiyan and having a soul inside that body can’t negate all the nature of the said species.

I guess I usually think about Zamasu’s goals and point of view instead of actually watching the show or manga and seeing the pleasure they took, it kind of takes away from what could have been a character that was more nuanced instead of “I like hurting creatures”, basically what every other villain was like.

[Aim]

You know it's ironic OP, you say that "despite his goals" he is pure of heart, but what I would say is that he is pure of heart precisely because of his goals.

You can call it pure evil, but he was single-minded in his desire to see all mortals eradicated. So much so that he transcended his own body and became his own manifestation of Justice and Order, to see his goal accomplished.

Whereas all other villains usually have multiple things going on in their mind, Zamasu was driven, obsessed, and consumed by the desire to eradicate mortals and bring about the "utopia" he desired.

So it is precisely because of his goals that he is pure of heart

Ehh, I don’t agree. I think I may have said this before but even though this is too deep for Dragon Ball, if Zamasu’s distaste came from seeing the (TW)

Spoiler:

rape, murder and torturing, etc. If Zamasu looks into the past and sees what the Red Ribbon Army are capable of, like what we saw when they literally were after Bulma to rape her, and Turtle Hermits antics that are never called out,

then I can see him being “pure of heart” if that’s how he came to his conclusions ultimately.

[SupremeKai25]

That tea test is anime only shit no?

You really had to remind everyone of your anime hate boner

Because the anime is actually bad? Like, Toyotaro isn’t that creative don’t get me wrong, but Toei can’t and shouldn’t be doing an anime without source material. They did some things well, but the fact they made Goku Black’s form some version he made up for Super Saiyan shows they can’t even read Toriyama’s notes well.

I don't see what the problem is.

Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan Blue or whatever is just one of many forms, just a pointless number associated to something, it's not an important plot detail. If Rosé is Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan Blue doesn't change anything for me, because it's brought up once when he transforms and then it's never mentioned again. It's fluff.

The portrayal of Zamasu and his darker thoughts was done in a genius way, by using the tea as a visual medium of his internal instability and his descent into darker desires.

You know it's ironic OP, you say that "despite his goals" he is pure of heart, but what I would say is that he is pure of heart precisely because of his goals.

You can call it pure evil, but he was single-minded in his desire to see all mortals eradicated. So much so that he transcended his own body and became his own manifestation of Justice and Order, to see his goal accomplished.

Whereas all other villains usually have multiple things going on in their mind, Zamasu was driven, obsessed, and consumed by the desire to eradicate mortals and bring about the "utopia" he desired.

So it is precisely because of his goals that he is pure of heart

Ehh, I don’t agree. I think I may have said this before but even though this is too deep for Dragon Ball, if Zamasu’s distaste came from seeing the (TW)

Spoiler:

rape, murder and torturing, etc. If Zamasu looks into the past and sees what the Red Ribbon Army are capable of, like what we saw when they literally were after Bulma to rape her, and Turtle Hermits antics that are never called out,

then I can see him being “pure of heart” if that’s how he came to his conclusions ultimately.

I'm not really contradicting anything of this.

We do not know what Zamasu saw but we do know that he has seen countless examples like that of Planet Babari, and how those examples always ended the same way.

So it seems like Zamasu:

1) Started out as the purest and most benevolent Kai you could imagine
2) He starts seeing examples like that of Planet Babari
3) He sees even more of those examples, they become countless eventually
4) He starts to lose faith in humanity and in the role of the Gods who allow this evil to happen
5) CUE THE FUTURE TRUNKS ARC

This would be a case of "Tell" more than "Show", since we are told that Zamasu has observed many cases like Planet Babari, so we must trust that statement. Even though we don't actually see others of those examples.

Goku Black also reiterated how he has observed and witnessed the acts of mortals throughout the Universe, so it would definitely seem that Zamasu bases his entire actions on extensive and thorough observance carried over a very long time.

In this regard, Zamasu is actually a very unique character and for this reason he is my favourite villain. Usually these kind of "righteous" villains commit atrocities because they are crybabies who had a sad childhood, but Zamasu is different in the sense that he is actually a very composed, rational, eloquent individual (this is especially clear when you look at Goku Black, who always maintains his composure), and he decides to eradicate mortals because he has observed just how barbaric they can become. There's no melodrama, he's like a scientist who has observed his creations and concluded that mortals are worthless. Like he tells to Trunks, "mortals are the one and only mistake amongst all DIvine creations".