Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 102 - GT 1-5

[Koitsukai]

I really liked planet Imegga, Don Kear's hotels being what I guess the 2022 WC hotels are going to be like lol. That massive capitalism taking even your fucking walls on a rainy night. And the wanted sign, their pictures always cracks me up.

The Zunama episode is really the lowest point of this arc, I think. Specially because of the studio in charge of the animation.

[KBABZ]

My bad, apologies for not reading it then. I'll be sure to look over the trivia stuff going forward, seems like you put a lot of work into it!

This week is our biggest yet because we also covered everything that happened in the gap between the end of the manga and the debut of GT, especially regarding what Toriyama was up to what the debut of the Daizenshuu.

[Robo4900]

Hope y'all don't mind me barging in on your rewatch at the 11th hour, but I've been looking for an excuse to do a GT rewatch anyway, so, here I am. I've only watched Episode 1 atm so I'll keep giving more thoughts as I watch.

Happy to have you here! Hope you enjoy.

-The music is phenomenal, frankly some of the best in the franchise. Tokunaga knocks it out of the park for the entire series.

YES, YES, a thousand times YES!
It's a crime they haven't brought him back in the revived era.

-I find the existence of the Dark Dragon Balls...confusing. How do they still exist after Kami's death/merger? Dende clearly didn't restore them like he did with the other set of balls, since he didn't even know where they were ("Apparently, the previous God put them away deep within the temple.") Hell, how did they exist after Kami split into two beings, for that matter? Why does Popo know almost everything about them but neglect to mention the part about the Earth's destruction? How was Pilaf of all people able to find out about them? Just a headache, imo.

They were created by the being God and Piccolo were back when they were one being, then presumably they turned to stone when the two split up, then reactivated once God and Piccolo merged bodies back in the Androids arc.
Popo only seems to know as much as Kaio; they'll scatter across the whole universe once used and have greater power than the standard ones. Remember, these balls were made hundreds of years ago. Even Piccolo forgot they existed. Kaio himself is surprised they still exist, and doesn't realise they blow up the planet until he does some research. Presumably the balls have never been used before, so it's not like anyone has firsthand experience with them blowing up a planet.

Despite what MyVisionity says, I think the logic in GT does tend to track. Some of the storytelling decisions are weird, and the show as a whole is very odd and silly, but generally the log makes sense if you can connect all the dots.

-I'm also not a big fan of how the premise of Z's ending, that of Goku training Oob, is pretty much glossed over. I feel that if you're going to continue past the manga's ending, you're obligated to do something meaningful with that.

This is a fair criticism, though it is worth noting that if you watched the original run as it was broadcast, you've been watching for 10 years and Oob has only existed for about three weeks. Seeing him disappear off from relevance isn't all that huge a deal.
But that's mostly an excuse on my part. This is very much a YMMV situation, and honestly I do agree that it would've been nice of Oob had been built on as a character. Oh well.

-This episode does a good job of establishing Trunks and Goten's characters as they will be depicted in GT, and similar to the last episode, I think there's some solid world building here regarding the current status quo of Dragon World.

-For the moment anyway, I'm enjoying Pan's character. Wanting to be taken more seriously at a young age is a feeling many people can relate to having had as a kid, and this is probably amplified by the feats/importance of her family.

Agreed on both counts.
I really like how episode 2 establishes Goten and Trunks, and I love how Vegeta handles them.
To a certain extent, I feel like whenever Pan gets cross about being treated like a kid, my response is "But you're 10." But yeah, I can sorta understand where she's coming from. I think this would work better if she was 13 or 14, but it's not exactly a bad angle to approach a character, and she is a solid presence in the main trio IMO.

-On the flip side of the design coin, good lord, what did they do to Vegeta!? I sincerely do not understand how anyone at Toei thought that design looked good.

I think it's the same problem that afflicts Super; no one wants to say no to anything Toriyama gives them, so they used his designs for the logo, Gill, the ship, Goku, Pan, Trunks, Vegeta, and all the rest, basically untouched at the start.
That said, I'm very glad Nakatsuru had the sense to completely redesign him the next time he appears. We even get a very amusing little storyline about it in the episode where it happens.
I do wish Toei had had Nakatsuru rework Toriyama's designs from the very beginning. Nakatsuru's design work in GT was generally on-point, and judging by his reworked Vegeta from later on, he could have done a great job refining Toriyama's rather rough designs into far more pleasing alternatives.

Thanks for posting your thoughts. Keep 'em coming, they're interesting to read.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I too wish we could have learned more about the Black star Dragon Balls, like how did Popo know and Kami forgot (assuming Piccolo would have inherited all his memories), where did Kaio-Sama research them? Their existence was also pretty much pulled out of nowhere, and the consequences of using them felt shoehorned in to add tension. It's a great idea in theory though.

I also loved the Tokunaga score that played when the Black Star Shenron was summoned. It was really ominous and foreboding, as a track to emphasize a Dragon God more powerful than any of the characters have ever seen should sound.

Goku being turned into a kid was also an interesting idea for an experiment, and I was fine with it for these first few episodes but later on it did overstay it's welcome.

[MyVisionity]

Their existence was also pretty much pulled out of nowhere, and the consequences of using them felt shoehorned in to add tension.

"Pulled out of nowhere" could be the alternate title to GT. I kind of enjoy that the show lets you know it right from the jump. You're right about the consequences, they are absurd.

Goku being turned into a kid was also an interesting idea for an experiment, and I was fine with it for these first few episodes but later on it did overstay it's welcome.

I used to think that I would like to have seen a return to Adult Goku, but now I really feel like GT was purposely trying to lean into the sillier and more cartoonish side of things in its overall tone and style. By having Goku remain a child, the show could maintain its hybrid state of dark and serious mixed with goofball slapstick.

[MasenkoHA]

. The OG-DB songs however were on the original TV broadcasts in 2001-3, so much more effort was put into their production.

Did the New Zealand and Australia broadcast keep them intact? In the US, Toonami removed Mystical Advtenture entirely and only kept the first and last line of I’ll Give You Romance.

[PremiumSalt]

Thanks for posting your thoughts. Keep 'em coming, they're interesting to read.

Will do, thanks!

Speaking of:

Episode 3: Super Greedy!! The Merchant Planet Imegga

Positive:
-I like Imegga so far. I don't know if it's the most original concept in the world, but it's definitely different by Dragon Ball standards, and it's nice to see the characters face a threat that they can't punch their way out of. What I do find striking is how passive and resigned the entire population seems to the whole situation. Definitely ups the stakes in the sense that it seems the heroes will have very little help.

-I think this episode does a good job of increasingly upping the stakes and making their situation more desperate in a way that feels logical and natural. First they're missing a part, so they crash, then they have difficulty getting shelter because of the planet's situation, then they lose the radar, and finally the ship. There's a progression to it that I feel is well done.

Negative:
-As mentioned in the trivia, where are they getting this planet's currency from? I mean, obviously they didn't pay for anything at the hotel, but it's implied they at least paid the merchants ("They forced the money out of us.")

Mixed:
-I have kind of mixed feelings on the team dynamic for the moment. Obviously this is an "updated version" of the Hunt for the Dragon Balls arc, so to compare it to that arc's team: Trunks fills Bulma's role here, of the (relatively) responsible adult who moves the plot forward, Pan fills Goku's role, of the wide-eyed and curious child, but, if Pan's filling Goku's role, where does that leave Goku himself? For the moment, he doesn't really seem to add much to the dynamic, other than being, well, Goku. And Goku's an entertaining and likeable character, both elsewhere and here, but he feels very passive for the moment. Of course, he needs to be here, because it's Dragon Ball, but I think they should give him a bit more to do.

[8000 Saiyan]

I'm not very fond of GT, but goddamn if it doesn't have a fantastic soundtrack in the original Japanese version. Shenron's theme is downright perfect. Simply perfect.

[KBABZ]

. The OG-DB songs however were on the original TV broadcasts in 2001-3, so much more effort was put into their production.

Did the New Zealand and Australia broadcast keep them intact? In the US, Toonami removed Mystical Advtenture entirely and only kept the first and last line of I’ll Give You Romance.

They did! Mystical Adventure is one of my fondest memories of the broadcast. We did however get the shorter I'll Give You Romance, it was such a pleasant surprise to hear the full version for the first time on the Blue Bricks.

---

Personally, I HATE Imegga. We just got into space and are excited for what'll happen and then immediately they crash and get their ship stolen, and then we're told to care about these people in a setting I honestly don't care about because we haven't started the main quest yet really. This crap takes three whole episodes to sort out, and they walk away with 0 Dragon Balls and one seriously irritating robot to show for it. We needed at least one episode where they get a Dragon ball before they get a major setback like this, IMO.

[Gilby1385]

To a certain extent, I feel like whenever Pan gets cross about being treated like a kid, my response is "But you're 10." But yeah, I can sorta understand where she's coming from. I think this would work better if she was 13 or 14, but it's not exactly a bad angle to approach a character, and she is a solid presence in the main trio IMO.

I think I read somewhere that Pan is around 16 in GT.

[KBABZ]

To a certain extent, I feel like whenever Pan gets cross about being treated like a kid, my response is "But you're 10." But yeah, I can sorta understand where she's coming from. I think this would work better if she was 13 or 14, but it's not exactly a bad angle to approach a character, and she is a solid presence in the main trio IMO.

I think I read somewhere that Pan is around 16 in GT.

According to Kanzenshuu the gap is 5 years. She was 5 in EoZ, meaning she's 10 in GT.

[Gilby1385]

I think I read somewhere that Pan is around 16 in GT.

According to Kanzenshuu the gap is 5 years. She was 5 in EoZ, meaning she's 10 in GT.

Ah, my mistake. I wasn't certain about whether I did see that claim that she was 16 anyway.

[MyVisionity]

I agree that the Imegga section drags. I think that they probably should have stuck with one to maybe two part episodes to begin with, so that the arc would flow better. Until the Lood episodes at least.

[sunsetshimmer]

I do wish Toei had had Nakatsuru rework Toriyama's designs from the very beginning. Nakatsuru's design work in GT was generally on-point, and judging by his reworked Vegeta from later on, he could have done a great job refining Toriyama's rather rough designs into far more pleasing alternatives.

I personally think all of them except Vegeta and Bra (her clothes to be clear) are good. I would remove jacket from Trunks though. Never been big fan of it and he looks way better without it imo. Jacket-less SSJ Trunks is probably my favorite Trunks design ever.

About Black Star balls, they obviously weren't thought before GT but i think they still came up with pretty good explanation of their existence. Nice throwback to entire nameless namekian thing. Just wish they explained better how everyone forgot about them cause it was little half assed.

[PremiumSalt]

Personally, I HATE Imegga. We just got into space and are excited for what'll happen and then immediately they crash and get their ship stolen, and then we're told to care about these people in a setting I honestly don't care about because we haven't started the main quest yet really. This crap takes three whole episodes to sort out, and they walk away with 0 Dragon Balls and one seriously irritating robot to show for it. We needed at least one episode where they get a Dragon ball before they get a major setback like this, IMO.

This is a fair point, it certainly could've been placed better. Either that or have them find a Dragon Ball on Imegga as well.

[KBABZ]

Personally, I HATE Imegga. We just got into space and are excited for what'll happen and then immediately they crash and get their ship stolen, and then we're told to care about these people in a setting I honestly don't care about because we haven't started the main quest yet really. This crap takes three whole episodes to sort out, and they walk away with 0 Dragon Balls and one seriously irritating robot to show for it. We needed at least one episode where they get a Dragon ball before they get a major setback like this, IMO.

This is a fair point, it certainly could've been placed better. Either that or have them find a Dragon Ball on Imegga as well.

Agreed! Having them look for a Dragon Ball while also trying to get their ship back would've been a better way to justify a three part visit to the planet and make it feel like "okay well they crashed here for a reason then"

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I'm not very fond of GT, but goddamn if it doesn't have a fantastic soundtrack in the original Japanese version. Shenron's theme is downright perfect. Simply perfect.

How much more enjoyable do you think GT would have been if Ken Morrison didn't have his way and the Canadian dub was done in Vancouver rather than Calgary as originally planned?

[PremiumSalt]

Episode 4: Wanted!! Goku’s on the Wanted List?!

This one was...frustrating, and I mostly have negative things to say about it, but firstly:

Positive:
-If nothing else, I do think this episode continues a trend I've noticed thus far of GT sometimes having strong visuals. The pinkish/purple clouds and orange moons(?)/suns(?) in the nighttime sequences were very striking.

Negative:
-Last episode, I praised Imegga as presenting the heroes with obstacles they couldn't just "punch their way out of", and I stand by there were a number of directions they could've taken this to that effect. And yet, not only do the writers now put them in the exact kind of situations they could punch their way out of, the characters seemingly forget how much stronger they are than basically everyone here. They have absolutely 0 reason to be afraid of guards or police. Goku, and even Trunks with his apparent recent lack of training, should be able to steamroll these guys. Them cowering and hiding from the police at the end of the episode is downright laughable. They could take each of them out with a lovetap!

-Speaking of power, Goku not being able to use his Instantaneous Movement seems...kinda random. I'll admit that I don't 100% recall how soon he is able to use Super Saiyan after this (remember I'm posting thoughts episode by episode as I watch), but I know he does do it, and surely doing that should be more difficult than Instantaneous Movement of all things.

-But, putting aside for a moment whether his lack of I'm makes sense, I feel like they could have leaned more into that to make this episode work a little better. They could have justified the characters' caution by having them be concerned that between Trunks' lack of recent training and being unsure of Goku's current capabilities after he demonstrated not being able to I'm earlier, they don't know for sure if they can take these people on. While it doesn't alleviate the logical issues with I'm being unusable, it still would've worked better than what we have here, without having to modify much of the actual plot.

To my recollection, this is an issue that GT has a lot: ideas that could have worked, had they put an extra 5 or so minutes of thought into them. It's very frustrating, in that respect.

[Koitsukai]

-Speaking of power, Goku not being able to use his Instantaneous Movement seems...kinda random. I'll admit that I don't 100% recall how soon he is able to use Super Saiyan after this (remember I'm posting thoughts episode by episode as I watch), but I know he does do it, and surely doing that should be more difficult than Instantaneous Movement of all things.

-But, putting aside for a moment whether his lack of I'm makes sense, I feel like they could have leaned more into that to make this episode work a little better. They could have justified the characters' caution by having them be concerned that between Trunks' lack of recent training and being unsure of Goku's current capabilities after he demonstrated not being able to I'm earlier, they don't know for sure if they can take these people on. While it doesn't alleviate the logical issues with I'm being unusable, it still would've worked better than what we have here, without having to modify much of the actual plot.

I never quite understood the Shunkanido block thing. Like, why SS but no Shunkanido? he can fly, he can go SS3 even, so what gives? does that mean he is weaker than his post-Namek self? because later he fights a Boo-level foe, so that can't be it, although he was turned into a child because he was already too OP and they wanted to dialed it down a bit.
But they kept the most OP techniques, like the one that amps his power by tens or hundreds, and just took away the one technique that only reduces the time it takes to get to places. And they could've made Shunkanido to be something he cannot do without leaving the ship behind and stranded in outer space. Or planets he cannot teleport to because their inhabitants' ki isn't big enough, or he just doesn't recognize them.

Now, with the existence of spirit control, we can go around it and say he didn't have all his chakras aligned or whatever, but that wasn't on the writers' mind 20 years ago. He still had the ki control to multiply his strenght to crazy levels by going SS.

A base chibi Goku, with slacker CEO Trunks and punk Pan(Pank) in outer space sounds much more of a task than SS Goku and friends.

[KBABZ]

I never quite understood the Shunkanido block thing. Like, why SS but no Shunkanido? he can fly, he can go SS3 even, so what gives? does that mean he is weaker than his post-Namek self? because later he fights a Boo-level foe, so that can't be it, although he was turned into a child because he was already too OP and they wanted to dialed it down a bit.
But they kept the most OP techniques, like the one that amps his power by tens or hundreds, and just took away the one technique that only reduces the time it takes to get to places. And they could've made Shunkanido to be something he cannot do without leaving the ship behind and stranded in outer space. Or planets he cannot teleport to because their inhabitants' ki isn't big enough, or he just doesn't recognize them.

I see it as a fix for the "Travel the stars collecting Dragon Balls" plot, before it transitioned to being about fighting bad guys, which they either didn't know at the time or did not have the time to adjust the writing for while frantically planning said transition. If it were more planned out then I'm sure they'd have Goku's ki clamped down so that he'd be more of a challenge.

I would also have extended it to flight. Not like GT remembers they can fly a lot of the time anyway.