Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

[capsulecorp]

In this regard, Zamasu is actually a very unique character and for this reason he is my favourite villain. Usually these kind of "righteous" villains commit atrocities because they are crybabies who had a sad childhood, but Zamasu is different in the sense that he is actually a very composed, rational, eloquent individual (this is especially clear when you look at Goku Black, who always maintains his composure), and he decides to eradicate mortals because he has observed just how barbaric they can become. There's no melodrama, he's like a scientist who has observed his creations and concluded that mortals are worthless. Like he tells to Trunks, "mortals are the one and only mistake amongst all DIvine creations".

But he's wrong. Don't you see that his observations are incomplete and his so-called-rationality is mere posturing? You could say everything you wrote above about Hitler but that doesn't make him "interesting" or "intelligent". He's just capable of self-delusion and able to attempt to justice his despicable acts.

Unless... you don't agree with him, that humanity deserves to be destroyed, do you?

(also, Zamasu is highly melodramatic, at least in the anime! he's a drama queen!)

[Jack Bz]

Yeah. He's not going about this in a pragmatic, scientific detached way. Even the idea of stealing Goku's body itself is complete theatrics as opposed to just wishing that all mortals were gone. The dude also cries when doing a speech to Vegetto.

[SupremeKai25]

But he's wrong.

I don't see why you would keep repeating this.

"Purity" has nothing to do with "right" or "wrong", for reasons already explained above.

Don't you see that his observations are incomplete and his so-called-rationality is mere posturing?

Sure, but I expect you'll be willing to make the same argument for Zeno, who spared all mortals based on one guy making a selfless wish, when there are countless mortals who would abuse the Dragon Balls for twisted reasons.

You could say everything you wrote above about Hitler

I don't know why you insist so much on comparing Zamasu to Hitler, it's not an interesting comparison at all.

The DB villain who comes closest to Hitler is either Frieza or Vegeta. Hitler was just a delusional dictator of a country, not too differently from how Frieza is just a delusional dictator of a mortal empire.

Zamasu clearly transcends these petty mortal politics, he sought to reshape the entire Cosmos in his image and rule as the God of everything, and he even transcended his own body to become the incarnation of Justice, Order, the Cosmos. Hence why he's far more comparable to Satan, who like Zamasu was a Divine being, and who became the incarnation of Evil.

This comparison matches perfectly once you realize how both Zamasu and Satan share a profound and deep hatred and envy for mankind. Satan hates and envies mankind because they can still receive the blessing of God and enter Heaven while he is forever exiled, while Zamasu hates and envies mankind (Saiyans in particular) because they managed to surpass the Gods. Zamasu's whole mission starts from jealousy and envy towards Goku, who beat him in battle, and who used the powers of the Gods. These similarities are so perfect that I can't help but wonder if the writers had Satan in mind when they designed Zamasu as a character, because they are extremely similar. Both Divine beings who turned on the other Divine creatures and hated mankind.

In the end Hitler was just a mere human, so you can't compare him to a God like Zamasu

"interesting" or "intelligent"

I don't understand why you're putting these two words in the same sentence.

"Interesting" is subjective, you clearly don't find Zamasu interesting, but I (and I assume many others since the villain is so popular) clearly do.

As for the "intelligent" part, well, Zamasu pretty much had the best and most infallible plan in the DB verse so... Even if we wanted to find flaws in his plan, we are told that he is a genius/prodigy amongst the Kais, was North Kai for a time, and was handpicked to become the next Supreme Kai, so Authorial verbatim tells us that Zamasu must be incredibly intelligent to get into these positions of power and prestige.

Unless... you don't agree with him, that humanity deserves to be destroyed, do you?

I don't see what this has to do with what we're talking about.

I already said I don't agree with Zamasu at all but people always miss the point in these discussions. I don't defend Zamasu because I agree with him (although there's a whole can of worms called "moral relativism" that if you can open if you want, OP already did, but I'd rather not do that because these discussions never end and it's not my point ), I defend him because he is my favourite villain and he is easily the most savage and badass villain in DB.

And if anything this thread has helped me reiterate why Zamasu is easily the most cold-blooded villain DB ever had. No other villain can compare to his body count, since he literally eradicated every mortal in the Cosmos... Where every other villain failed, Zamasu succeeded (killing Goku, getting Immortality, killing everyone, destroying the Universe, etc. etc. etc.).

Since I take it that you don't like Zamasu, why would you not admit that he is... pure evil

(also, Zamasu is highly melodramatic, at least in the anime! he's a drama queen!)

Part of the reason why he's so entertaining. He knows how to start drama and after all that's what makes people tune in.

But he is not melodramatic, at least not in the sense (of the word's meaning) that he "appeals to the emotions" of the other characters. Zamasu doesn't give a shit about what mortals or Gowasu think, he's just going to kill them all

[capsulecorp]

Sure, but I expect you'll be willing to make the same argument for Zeno, who spared all mortals based on one guy making a selfless wish, when there are countless mortals who would abuse the Dragon Balls for twisted reasons.

Zeno is beyond concepts of "good" or "evil". The fact that his childlike whims can be unimaginably arbitrary and cruel is a key aspect of his character. This isn't the time or place to get into it, but Zeno at least partially represents the audience.

I don't know why you insist so much on comparing Zamasu to Hitler, it's not an interesting comparison at all.

The DB villain who comes closest to Hitler is either Frieza or Vegeta. Hitler was just a delusional dictator of a country, not too differently from how Frieza is just a delusional dictator of a mortal empire.

Zamasu clearly transcends these petty mortal politics, he sought to reshape the entire Cosmos in his image and rule as the God of everything, and he even transcended his own body to become the incarnation of Justice, Order, the Cosmos. Hence why he's far more comparable to Satan, who like Zamasu was a Divine being, and who became the incarnation of Evil.

When I compare Hitler to Zamasu I'm not comparing the scale of their ambition. I'm comparing their intentions and their rationale. They both desire the extermination of what they believe to be a lower form of life.

You're right that Freeza vendetta against the Saiyan's is a good analogy too though.

Part of the reason why he's so entertaining. He knows how to start drama and after all that's what makes people tune in.

But he is not melodramatic, at least not in the sense (of the word's meaning) that he "appeals to the emotions" of the other characters. Zamasu doesn't give a shit about what mortals or Gowasu think, he's just going to kill them all

Typically when people say a character or story is melodramatic they mean it appeals to the emotions of the audience, not the emotions of other characters. I get the misunderstanding here now, though.

[SupremeKai25]

They both desire the extermination of what they believe to be a lower form of life.

Pretty much 90% of the villains really.

You can even fit Cell in there, since he wanted to exterminate all those he considered below his "perfection"... so pretty much everyone.

It very much IS about scale of ambitions, otherwise you can compare most villains to Hitler and that doesn't narrow it down at all.

In fact, come to think of it, I do not know a major Dragon Ball villain who can't be compared to Hitler in one way or another, since they all have the power to easily annihilate entire cities/continents and thus easily commit genocide.

In the end all villains in Dragon Ball are driven by petty/mortal desires, Zamasu here is the exception, he is the only villain who seeks more than just that. To ascend and become the ruler of the entire Cosmos, which is an ambition that no other villain has in DB (except for Frieza, briefly, in the ToP arc, when he wanted to use the Super Dragon Balls to take control of the Gods, but this plotline went nowhere...).

Typically when people say a character or story is melodramatic they mean it appeals to the emotions of the audience, not the emotions of other characters. I get the misunderstanding here now, though.

I can't really think of any scene featuring Zamasu that is meant to appeal to the emotion of the audience.

Aside, obviously, from this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geseBy8 ... Mehulpatel

Which I'm sure has already been mentioned as an example of Zamasu genuinely believing in what he is fighting for.

And even then this scene is meant to show how Zamasu has hit rock bottom, not only all of his achievements are falling apart but his body is also falling apart, and so he breaks down for a moment. Then becomes even more unhinged in literally at the end of this scene.

So really the audience in front of this scene is not meant to think "oh no poor Zamasu he's just doing what he thinks he's right, he's not a bad guy after all", it's meant to think "he really is delusional, it's kind of sad and pitiful how delusional he is and how much copium he is inhaling, to think he's doing the right thing".

Which, actually, was the reaction Vegito had, pointing out how Zamasu always tried to justify himself...

Aside from this one moment where he sheds a tear, every single time Zamasu is on-screen, he's either stomping the opposition, making/drinking tea, or brooding (how to put his plan in motion, how to kill Gowasu, how evil mortals are, etc. etc. etc.).

I would say that scene is the only time where Zamasu is shown in a moment where he is weak emotionally

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

I guess you could argue he had a pure intention. But, that's still a severely warped view of the word pure.

[dva_raza]

Zamasu’s purity should be simply measured by how much doubt or conflicting thoughts he has about what he was doing at the final point of it, remorse basically.
So if the answer is zero, which I believe it is, then yes, he is pure (evil)

I liked him a lot as a villain. I mean his introduction alone was intriguing as hell, his motivations were explored deeper in comparison to Frieza’s and Cell’s for example (I’m not mentioning Buu cause he had none lol, which is why I love Buu also, he’s the total opposite: no motivation whatsoever other than having fun, and I find that hilarious). But back to Zamasu, the point of villains in fictional stories is to create a conflict, the deeper the perspective that’s being shown from him the more room there is for someone to be fascinated by him.
So maybe he isn’t charming like Frieza personality wise but I found him more interesting from a deeper viewpoint. Also, yes, he was just badass, and I dunno..attractive? lol I'm not even gay but damn. Both him and Black were just cool/looked cool, and the LITERAL narcissism thing he had going on with himself was so perverse it was actually fun
ps- also one of my favorite things about him was how he wasn’t about to take any shit from Vegeta and straight away dismissed him with the most effortless insult ever “You're no more than an appetizer" LOOOL

[Aim]

You really had to remind everyone of your anime hate boner

Because the anime is actually bad? Like, Toyotaro isn’t that creative don’t get me wrong, but Toei can’t and shouldn’t be doing an anime without source material. They did some things well, but the fact they made Goku Black’s form some version he made up for Super Saiyan shows they can’t even read Toriyama’s notes well.

I don't see what the problem is.

Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan Blue or whatever is just one of many forms, just a pointless number associated to something, it's not an important plot detail. If Rosé is Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan Blue doesn't change anything for me, because it's brought up once when he transforms and then it's never mentioned again. It's fluff.

The portrayal of Zamasu and his darker thoughts was done in a genius way, by using the tea as a visual medium of his internal instability and his descent into darker desires.

You know it's ironic OP, you say that "despite his goals" he is pure of heart, but what I would say is that he is pure of heart precisely because of his goals.

You can call it pure evil, but he was single-minded in his desire to see all mortals eradicated. So much so that he transcended his own body and became his own manifestation of Justice and Order, to see his goal accomplished.

Whereas all other villains usually have multiple things going on in their mind, Zamasu was driven, obsessed, and consumed by the desire to eradicate mortals and bring about the "utopia" he desired.

So it is precisely because of his goals that he is pure of heart

Ehh, I don’t agree. I think I may have said this before but even though this is too deep for Dragon Ball, if Zamasu’s distaste came from seeing the (TW)

Spoiler:

rape, murder and torturing, etc. If Zamasu looks into the past and sees what the Red Ribbon Army are capable of, like what we saw when they literally were after Bulma to rape her, and Turtle Hermits antics that are never called out,

then I can see him being “pure of heart” if that’s how he came to his conclusions ultimately.

I'm not really contradicting anything of this.

We do not know what Zamasu saw but we do know that he has seen countless examples like that of Planet Babari, and how those examples always ended the same way.

So it seems like Zamasu:

1) Started out as the purest and most benevolent Kai you could imagine
2) He starts seeing examples like that of Planet Babari
3) He sees even more of those examples, they become countless eventually
4) He starts to lose faith in humanity and in the role of the Gods who allow this evil to happen
5) CUE THE FUTURE TRUNKS ARC

This would be a case of "Tell" more than "Show", since we are told that Zamasu has observed many cases like Planet Babari, so we must trust that statement. Even though we don't actually see others of those examples.

Goku Black also reiterated how he has observed and witnessed the acts of mortals throughout the Universe, so it would definitely seem that Zamasu bases his entire actions on extensive and thorough observance carried over a very long time.

In this regard, Zamasu is actually a very unique character and for this reason he is my favourite villain. Usually these kind of "righteous" villains commit atrocities because they are crybabies who had a sad childhood, but Zamasu is different in the sense that he is actually a very composed, rational, eloquent individual (this is especially clear when you look at Goku Black, who always maintains his composure), and he decides to eradicate mortals because he has observed just how barbaric they can become. There's no melodrama, he's like a scientist who has observed his creations and concluded that mortals are worthless. Like he tells to Trunks, "mortals are the one and only mistake amongst all DIvine creations".

Hmm, now you mentioned it I haven’t seen the anime or manga for a while, the tea part is an indication he has come to a conclusion and is believing what he’s doing is pure. I guess I don’t like how Zamasu and Black turned into the typical “I like murdering people” villain.

I think it would have added more nuance to have Zamasu believe he’s doing the universe and humans a favor and getting rid of them swiftly with no pain.

Black on the other hand could have some leeway due to the Saiyan body influencing him as we saw in the anime. I think that was a nice touch.

I think they could have added times where Black came off as sadistic but ultimately Zamasu was more in favor of a swift killing, but had to make an exception for Black to get stronger.

I truly wonder how Toriyama would have handled it, because in the anime Black had a pretty solid personality, though it was still quite malicious, the manga portrayed him as just downright evil just like Freeza.

Having Zamasu go “alright, this is what I need to do” taking out the evil smirks when killing except on certain occasions I think would have made the characters better. I truly wonder if that’s what Toriyama would have done, because he expressed that Toyotaro was able to convey emotion far better than he could (I disagree), I wonder if Toriyama would have done something similar to what I mentioned…

[SupremeKai25]

I think it would have added more nuance to have Zamasu believe he’s doing the universe and humans a favor and getting rid of them swiftly with no pain.

Actually, he does say that at one point. In the second episode where he appears in (Black), he says to Trunks, after "killing" Mai:

Don't you see I'm helping you? Soon you'll be with her and the other creatures you love. If you had any sense you'd see death is a mercy for you and this world.

So, as you said, in a twisted sense it's like he thinks that he's doing the humans a favour, putting them out of their misery.

[Aim]

I think it would have added more nuance to have Zamasu believe he’s doing the universe and humans a favor and getting rid of them swiftly with no pain.

Actually, he does say that at one point. In the second episode where he appears in (Black), he says to Trunks, after "killing" Mai:

Don't you see I'm helping you? Soon you'll be with her and the other creatures you love. If you had any sense you'd see death is a mercy for you and this world.

So, as you said, in a twisted sense it's like he thinks that he's doing the humans a favour, putting them out of their misery.

Actually, he said

Don’t worry… Soon, I’ll send you to the same place as that girl. Death is a blessing for foolish human beings.

His speech shows far less mercy than what the quote provided, he essentially is taunting Trunks by saying he’ll send her to the same place as Mai, insinuating he’s gonna kill him. He does this with a smirk.

His last line is just him reiterating that he believes death is a “blessing” for humans. Again, this seems more like another taunt, considering the language and facial expressions he uses don’t show any indication he believes humans should be blessed with anything, he just wants them out of existence.

[SupremeKai25]

Actually, he said

That's not what he said here:

https://youtu.be/28FcuDDDAas?t=29

Which does make for a pretty badass quote, wouldn't you agree

[Saiya6Cit]

I have not watched super but I Know he rejected bulma, so maybe?

[Aim]

Actually, he said

That's not what he said here:

https://youtu.be/28FcuDDDAas?t=29

Which does make for a pretty badass quote, wouldn't you agree

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey2iyJTVyuA

[Peach]

Wtf? No. He's sadistic. Do you not remember him and Goku Black laughing as they talked about killing Chichi and Goten?

[Aim]

Wtf? No. He's sadistic. Do you not remember him and Goku Black laughing as they talked about killing Chichi and Goten?

This is why I think it would have been more interesting to not have him do the typical Freeza or Cell thing like laughing about killing a child. I think it would have added more nuance to the character to have him not so much enjoy killing humans but more so, you get it.

[Hulk10]

The entire point of the Majin Vegeta arc was to say that Vegeta was no longer evil. The Dark Prince was gone, and he won't coming back.

Toriyama tries to throw the audience off at first, making it look like Vegeta is susceptible to Bobbidi's magic and that he has returned to his evil ways. But the plot twist is that nope, Vegeta's a good guy now. He was just acting to fool Bobbidi and get Goku to fight him. Goku points this out clearly during the battle and Vegeta confirms it. Vegeta has changed, no matter how much he hates it. Porunga recognizes this clearly, and resurrects Vegeta accordingly.

No one is saying that his crimes are erased. Just that they don't necessarily determine whether or not he's good or bad. The time when his past sins will truly count is with Enma after death. Whether he belongs in Heaven or Hell is an entirely different question. Until then, Vegeta's one of the good guys.

I agree with you there

[90sDBZ]

I find it hard to see him as pure. The guy is too caught up in his own ego and self-delusion. If anything he's one of the least pure villains. Guys like Frieza, Cell, and King Piccolo are unapologetically evil. They know exactly what they are and embrace it. Zamasu has to constantly rationalize his actions by doing summersaults with his ego. He's never able to admit that he kills for his own enjoyment.

It would have been interesting to have a scene were he finally acknowledges and accepts his true motivations.

[Anonymous Friend]

I guess you could argue he had a pure intention. But, that's still a severely warped view of the word pure.

No, what we're doing is using the actual definition of the word. Maybe you should try to do the same and follow the conversation.

[Cursed Lemon]

I guess you could argue he had a pure intention. But, that's still a severely warped view of the word pure.

No, what we're doing is using the actual definition of the word. Maybe you should try to do the same and follow the conversation.

Great, so I guess there's no such thing as a "pure" heart because no one's heart is purely one emotion.

[Nagyzöld]

Pure is a largely overused term in the franchise. Kid Goku for example, his naivety and ignorance are also misunderstood as "purity of the heart". But in real life the term is subjective and obsolete at most.

Zamasu is of another breed. He has a Messiah complex and, while his intentions seem good on the surface, he displays deep narcissistic personality. No one gets to decide what's absolutely good and absolutely evil in this world, no one has the right to judge, for no one is free of evil themselves. You gotta have a very twisted ego to think otherwise. Because in the end, he got drunk with power himself and ironically became the very thing he pledged to purge.

Take Light Yagami for example, was he ever pure?