Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

[Chuquita]

There's probably a couple factions (or more likely a few individuals) in the same level of management with opposing ideas of where to take the franchise, causing some infighting. I can't imagine we'll ever get the true story behind what made them shut down Super's return to weekly TV or why they're going with a lighter plot and cgi on the heels of how much money 2D, action-heavy Broly made.

[HeroR]

There's probably a couple factions (or more likely a few individuals) in the same level of management with opposing ideas of where to take the franchise, causing some infighting. I can't imagine we'll ever get the true story behind what made them shut down Super's return to weekly TV or why they're going with a lighter plot and cgi on the heels of how much money 2D, action-heavy Broly made.

No, I don't think that is the case. The current direction of Dragon Ball can be summed up as 'anything Toriyama wants'. People act like they're rushing this movie out when Toriyama worked on the scripted before Broly finished production and the staff are so eager to please that they even changed the long-standing anime colors for the manga colors to stay truer to Toriyama's vision. They even said that they wanted to be closer to modern Toriyama instead of trying to redo the Buu Saga designs or even sticking with Broly's style.

Toei as a whole don't like doing original Dragon Ball products themselves after GT. The whole reason we even got Dragon Ball Kai and Dragon Ball Heroes was because they wanted Toriyama to work on a new show, he said no, so they decided to rebrand Z and Namco decided to go full fanfic.

That and they never said that Super Heroes had a 'lighter plot'. They only said it had more slice-of-life, and they even said this movie had a good balanced of light moments and action. Why are people acting like Broly had some kind of deep, thoughtful plot? It wasn't Resurrection 'F' lite, but it wasn't Battle of Gods either. And Battle of Gods was 70% slice-of-life since no one fought until the last 30 minutes if we don't include Goku being stomped by Beerus. That and they outright said after Broly released that the next movie would be lighter on action, so why is everyone acting surprised?

[HeroR]

FEBRUARY?! That's two months from now!

The marketing decisions made regarding this movie continue to have me flabbergasted. They've done fuck-all to give any kind of insight as to what this movie is about and generate interest for its narrative.

I mentioned this months ago too. but people had they fanboy goggles on and weren’t trying to see reason.

Compare the marketing of Broly to DBSSH it’s night & day. Brolys marketing was in a similar vein of how you’d market a MCU movie. From the trailers,interviews,etc. This movie has only brand name going for it in every aspect.

I’ve said this before all these things are red flags that something troublesome is going on in the franchise from up top that we don’t fully know about.

I find this take nuts. Broly was mostly about hyping Broly being canon and ‘look how pretty this movie is’. Stuff like the story was downplayed because once Broly comes to Earth, it’s just fights.

If they’re hiding story elements, it’s usually because of spoilers. Not because of some behind the scenes drama. This honestly reads like panic mode because it’s CGI because if this was standard 2D movie, half these takes wouldn’t exits.

[Xeno Goku Black]

From everything that has been released and shown so far I'd say it's safe to say this movie doesn't make close to as much as what Broly did.

Probably gonna be closer to Resurrection F if anything.

[Lord Beerus]

From everything that has been released and shown so far I'd say it's safe to say this movie doesn't make close to as much as what Broly did.

Probably gonna be closer to Resurrection F if anything.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the movie made even less than Battle Of Gods. Japanese 3D animated films have historically performed poorly at the Japanese box office with only a handful of examples averting this scenario.

[TheMikado]

There's probably a couple factions (or more likely a few individuals) in the same level of management with opposing ideas of where to take the franchise, causing some infighting. I can't imagine we'll ever get the true story behind what made them shut down Super's return to weekly TV or why they're going with a lighter plot and cgi on the heels of how much money 2D, action-heavy Broly made.

No, I don't think that is the case. The current direction of Dragon Ball can be summed up as 'anything Toriyama wants'. People act like they're rushing this movie out when Toriyama worked on the scripted before Broly finished production and the staff are so eager to please that they even changed the long-standing anime colors for the manga colors to stay truer to Toriyama's vision. They even said that they wanted to be closer to modern Toriyama instead of trying to redo the Buu Saga designs or even sticking with Broly's style.

Toei as a whole don't like doing original Dragon Ball products themselves after GT. The whole reason we even got Dragon Ball Kai and Dragon Ball Heroes was because they wanted Toriyama to work on a new show, he said no, so they decided to rebrand Z and Namco decided to go full fanfic.

That and they never said that Super Heroes had a 'lighter plot'. They only said it had more slice-of-life, and they even said this movie had a good balanced of light moments and action. Why are people acting like Broly had some kind of deep, thoughtful plot? It wasn't Resurrection 'F' lite, but it wasn't Battle of Gods either. And Battle of Gods was 70% slice-of-life since no one fought until the last 30 minutes if we don't include Goku being stomped by Beerus. That and they outright said after Broly released that the next movie would be lighter on action, so why is everyone acting surprised?

Lolololol You’re fooling yourself if you think Toriyama’s really truly invested in Dragonball related material these days..

Your statement about Toei not doing original products after GT isn’t even true. The entirety of Super and Battle of the Gods STARTED because TOEI came to Toriyama with a story and concept already made out and Toriyama said ok let me change that for you…

Battle of the Gods isn’t even originally Toriyamas concept. Sure he changed it after it was brought to him, but as far as we know if he hadn’t been approached by a product Toei already had in production, we don’t know that he would have continued adding to the DB story at all.

[Xeno Goku Black]

From everything that has been released and shown so far I'd say it's safe to say this movie doesn't make close to as much as what Broly did.

Probably gonna be closer to Resurrection F if anything.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the movie made even less than Battle Of Gods. Japanese 3D animated films have historically performed poorly at the Japanese box office with only a handful of examples averting this scenario.

Domestically it easily could. Shouldn't fall that hard worldwide.

Thing is the movie has no selling point.

Battle of Gods was the first movie in 17 years. First canon movie. Gave Goku a new Super Saiyan God form.

Resurrection F brought back Frieza who was the most well known villain. Gave Frieza a new form. Gave Goku and Vegeta the Super Saiyan Blue form.

Broly made arguably the most popular villain and one of the most popular characters in the franchise canon. Also brought in Gogeta who is popular in his own right.

What does this movie have? An interior art style. They're pushing Pan, a three year old girl as an important character when nobody watches a show like Dragon Ball for Pan. They're pushing Piccolo who while popular is no Goku or Vegeta or even how they had Trunks in the Goku Black Saga. The villains don't look that great. They're bringing back the Red Ribbon Army....again.

Aside from the fact that it's more Dragon Ball what is the big sell here?

[TheMikado]

From everything that has been released and shown so far I'd say it's safe to say this movie doesn't make close to as much as what Broly did.

Probably gonna be closer to Resurrection F if anything.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the movie made even less than Battle Of Gods. Japanese 3D animated films have historically performed poorly at the Japanese box office with only a handful of examples averting this scenario.

Domestically it easily could. Shouldn't fall that hard worldwide.

Thing is the movie has no selling point.

Battle of Gods was the first movie in 17 years. First canon movie. Gave Goku a new Super Saiyan God form.

Resurrection F brought back Frieza who was the most well known villain. Gave Frieza a new form. Gave Goku and Vegeta the Super Saiyan Blue form.

Broly made arguably the most popular villain and one of the most popular characters in the franchise canon. Also brought in Gogeta who is popular in his own right.

What does this movie have? An interior art style. They're pushing Pan, a three year old girl as an important character when nobody watches a show like Dragon Ball for Pan. They're pushing Piccolo who while popular is no Goku or Vegeta or even how they had Trunks in the Goku Black Saga. The villains don't look that great. They're bringing back the Red Ribbon Army....again.

Aside from the fact that it's more Dragon Ball what is the big sell here?

Agree with all the points made here.
If we don’t see a new SSJ form in this movie it’s probably going to be DOA.

There just isn’t any hook.

[ObnoxiousNamek]

From everything that has been released and shown so far I'd say it's safe to say this movie doesn't make close to as much as what Broly did.

Probably gonna be closer to Resurrection F if anything.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the movie made even less than Battle Of Gods. Japanese 3D animated films have historically performed poorly at the Japanese box office with only a handful of examples averting this scenario.

How much you wanna bet the Toei execs still will be clueless as to why DB dropped from having a 120 million film to one making less than 40 million.

And before it happens I don’t wanna hear the Covid excuse a lot of companies have been using lately to excuse why the bad products they put out didn’t do great.

[HeroR]

There's probably a couple factions (or more likely a few individuals) in the same level of management with opposing ideas of where to take the franchise, causing some infighting. I can't imagine we'll ever get the true story behind what made them shut down Super's return to weekly TV or why they're going with a lighter plot and cgi on the heels of how much money 2D, action-heavy Broly made.

No, I don't think that is the case. The current direction of Dragon Ball can be summed up as 'anything Toriyama wants'. People act like they're rushing this movie out when Toriyama worked on the scripted before Broly finished production and the staff are so eager to please that they even changed the long-standing anime colors for the manga colors to stay truer to Toriyama's vision. They even said that they wanted to be closer to modern Toriyama instead of trying to redo the Buu Saga designs or even sticking with Broly's style.

Toei as a whole don't like doing original Dragon Ball products themselves after GT. The whole reason we even got Dragon Ball Kai and Dragon Ball Heroes was because they wanted Toriyama to work on a new show, he said no, so they decided to rebrand Z and Namco decided to go full fanfic.

That and they never said that Super Heroes had a 'lighter plot'. They only said it had more slice-of-life, and they even said this movie had a good balanced of light moments and action. Why are people acting like Broly had some kind of deep, thoughtful plot? It wasn't Resurrection 'F' lite, but it wasn't Battle of Gods either. And Battle of Gods was 70% slice-of-life since no one fought until the last 30 minutes if we don't include Goku being stomped by Beerus. That and they outright said after Broly released that the next movie would be lighter on action, so why is everyone acting surprised?

Lolololol You’re fooling yourself if you think Toriyama’s really truly invested in Dragonball related material these days..

Your statement about Toei not doing original products after GT isn’t even true. The entirety of Super and Battle of the Gods STARTED because TOEI came to Toriyama with a story and concept already made out and Toriyama said ok let me change that for you…

Battle of the Gods isn’t even originally Toriyamas concept. Sure he changed it after it was brought to him, but as far as we know if he hadn’t been approached by a product Toei already had in production, we don’t know that he would have continued adding to the DB story at all.

He wrote the movie before Broly finished which is late 2018, he designed the new characters, the is directly guiding the direction of the movie. What do you mean he isn't involved?

Super happened after the success of Resurrection 'F', a movie that Toriyama personally wrote, and he did the outline for all the major Super arcs. So Super would not have existed without Toriyama because if they were so willing, a new Dragon Ball show would have been created back in 2007 when they begged Toriyama to make a new Dragon Ball series. So yes, Toei did no real big production for Dragon Ball after GT until they got Toriyama back on board. Battle of Gods was literally the only thing they tried because it was an anniversary movie, and Yammy went and begged Toriyama to be part of it. Good lord, even Yo Son Goku was something Toriyama wrote for them.

Battle of Gods isn't Toriyama's original concept, but he personally went back and rewrote the entire movie. Beerus was changed from some evil good who corrupted the Saiyan like Baby and was doing the same to Earth, to a good, if ill-temper god. He also created Whis, remade Super Saiyan God which was going to be a strange mixed of Super Saiyan 3 and 4 with a cap, and created the multiverse while he was at it.

From everything that has been released and shown so far I'd say it's safe to say this movie doesn't make close to as much as what Broly did.

Probably gonna be closer to Resurrection F if anything.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the movie made even less than Battle Of Gods. Japanese 3D animated films have historically performed poorly at the Japanese box office with only a handful of examples averting this scenario.

Domestically it easily could. Shouldn't fall that hard worldwide.

Thing is the movie has no selling point.

Battle of Gods was the first movie in 17 years. First canon movie. Gave Goku a new Super Saiyan God form.

Resurrection F brought back Frieza who was the most well known villain. Gave Frieza a new form. Gave Goku and Vegeta the Super Saiyan Blue form.

Broly made arguably the most popular villain and one of the most popular characters in the franchise canon. Also brought in Gogeta who is popular in his own right.

What does this movie have? An interior art style. They're pushing Pan, a three year old girl as an important character when nobody watches a show like Dragon Ball for Pan. They're pushing Piccolo who while popular is no Goku or Vegeta or even how they had Trunks in the Goku Black Saga. The villains don't look that great. They're bringing back the Red Ribbon Army....again.

Aside from the fact that it's more Dragon Ball what is the big sell here?

It's a Dragon Ball movie written by Toriyama. That is what most people will pay to see, especially for people who are actually fans of the lesser characters after having two movies focused on Goku and Vegeta. The rest is just people guessing and being pessimistic because, 'oh the horror, it's CGI'. I doubt it will only break even with Battle of Gods since Dragon Ball is much stronger than it was in 2013 when it was closed to life support and being kept alive by Dragon Ball Heroes. That and the 'villains don't look cool' is a laughable criticism for a series that gave us Fat Buu.

I also find it odd that people are slamming the movie for focusing on characters like Pan and Piccolo when the major complaint of Resurrection 'F' and Broly were that they were too 'fan-service' because they brought Frieza back with a new form, they gave Goku and Vegeta new forms, they made Broly and Gogeta canon, they had Bardock, etc etc. So why are you guys complaining when they make a movie that is lighter on the fan-service and uses less popular characters? Isn't this the type of movie you've been asking for outside of the CGI?

[TheMikado]

No, I don't think that is the case. The current direction of Dragon Ball can be summed up as 'anything Toriyama wants'. People act like they're rushing this movie out when Toriyama worked on the scripted before Broly finished production and the staff are so eager to please that they even changed the long-standing anime colors for the manga colors to stay truer to Toriyama's vision. They even said that they wanted to be closer to modern Toriyama instead of trying to redo the Buu Saga designs or even sticking with Broly's style.

Toei as a whole don't like doing original Dragon Ball products themselves after GT. The whole reason we even got Dragon Ball Kai and Dragon Ball Heroes was because they wanted Toriyama to work on a new show, he said no, so they decided to rebrand Z and Namco decided to go full fanfic.

That and they never said that Super Heroes had a 'lighter plot'. They only said it had more slice-of-life, and they even said this movie had a good balanced of light moments and action. Why are people acting like Broly had some kind of deep, thoughtful plot? It wasn't Resurrection 'F' lite, but it wasn't Battle of Gods either. And Battle of Gods was 70% slice-of-life since no one fought until the last 30 minutes if we don't include Goku being stomped by Beerus. That and they outright said after Broly released that the next movie would be lighter on action, so why is everyone acting surprised?

Lolololol You’re fooling yourself if you think Toriyama’s really truly invested in Dragonball related material these days..

Your statement about Toei not doing original products after GT isn’t even true. The entirety of Super and Battle of the Gods STARTED because TOEI came to Toriyama with a story and concept already made out and Toriyama said ok let me change that for you…

Battle of the Gods isn’t even originally Toriyamas concept. Sure he changed it after it was brought to him, but as far as we know if he hadn’t been approached by a product Toei already had in production, we don’t know that he would have continued adding to the DB story at all.

He wrote the movie before Broly finished which is late 2018, he designed the new characters, the is directly guiding the direction of the movie. What do you mean he isn't involved?

Super happened after the success of Resurrection 'F', a movie that Toriyama personally wrote, and he did the outline for all the major Super arcs. So Super would not have existed without Toriyama because if they were so willing, a new Dragon Ball show would have been created back in 2007 when they begged Toriyama to make a new Dragon Ball series. So yes, Toei did no real big production for Dragon Ball after GT until they got Toriyama back on board. Battle of Gods was literally the only thing they tried because it was an anniversary movie, and Yammy went and begged Toriyama to be part of it. Good lord, even Yo Son Goku was something Toriyama wrote for them.

Battle of Gods isn't Toriyama's original concept, but he personally went back and rewrote the entire movie. Beerus was changed from some evil good who corrupted the Saiyan like Baby and was doing the same to Earth, to a good, if ill-temper god. He also created Whis, remade Super Saiyan God which was going to be a strange mixed of Super Saiyan 3 and 4 with a cap, and created the multiverse while he was at it.

Yeah at no point did I say Toriyama wasn’t involved.

The point was and still remains his level of investment which is to say he isn’t truly invested because if he was he’d be providing a lot more than outlines. He’d just do much of it himself like writing the Super manga. We’ve already seen it repeatedly about what stuff Toriyama actually cares about when an arc is fleshed out and written.

You’re overselling his involvement like it’s some kind of official seal of approval.

Again if he really truly had a conviction to tell a some specific story, he’d just do it. There wouldn’t even be a discussion about his level of involvement: Again his guidance, advisement, etc wouldn’t be “necessary” if he just flat out wrote out the story he wanted. The fact that this isn’t the case shows, in my opinion, there isn’t a strong conviction to tell a specific story.

[HeroR]

Lolololol You’re fooling yourself if you think Toriyama’s really truly invested in Dragonball related material these days..

Your statement about Toei not doing original products after GT isn’t even true. The entirety of Super and Battle of the Gods STARTED because TOEI came to Toriyama with a story and concept already made out and Toriyama said ok let me change that for you…

Battle of the Gods isn’t even originally Toriyamas concept. Sure he changed it after it was brought to him, but as far as we know if he hadn’t been approached by a product Toei already had in production, we don’t know that he would have continued adding to the DB story at all.

He wrote the movie before Broly finished which is late 2018, he designed the new characters, the is directly guiding the direction of the movie. What do you mean he isn't involved?

Super happened after the success of Resurrection 'F', a movie that Toriyama personally wrote, and he did the outline for all the major Super arcs. So Super would not have existed without Toriyama because if they were so willing, a new Dragon Ball show would have been created back in 2007 when they begged Toriyama to make a new Dragon Ball series. So yes, Toei did no real big production for Dragon Ball after GT until they got Toriyama back on board. Battle of Gods was literally the only thing they tried because it was an anniversary movie, and Yammy went and begged Toriyama to be part of it. Good lord, even Yo Son Goku was something Toriyama wrote for them.

Battle of Gods isn't Toriyama's original concept, but he personally went back and rewrote the entire movie. Beerus was changed from some evil good who corrupted the Saiyan like Baby and was doing the same to Earth, to a good, if ill-temper god. He also created Whis, remade Super Saiyan God which was going to be a strange mixed of Super Saiyan 3 and 4 with a cap, and created the multiverse while he was at it.

Yeah at no point did I say Toriyama wasn’t involved.

The point was and still remains his level of investment which is to say he isn’t truly invested because if he was he’d be providing a lot more than outlines. He’d just do much of it himself like writing the Super manga. We’ve already seen it repeatedly about what stuff Toriyama actually cares about when an arc is fleshed out and written.

You’re overselling his involvement like it’s some kind of official seal of approval.

Again if he really truly had a conviction to tell a some specific story, he’d just do it. There wouldn’t even be a discussion about his level of involvement: Again his guidance, advisement, etc wouldn’t be “necessary” if he just flat out wrote out the story he wanted. The fact that this isn’t the case shows, in my opinion, there isn’t a strong conviction to tell a specific story.

You stated:

"Lolololol You’re fooling yourself if you think Toriyama’s really truly invested in Dragonball related material these days.."

Like, how much more invested can he be in the movie? You want him to do the story boards? According to the promos, he did all the dialog in the movie. Hell, Toriyama's original script for Resurrection 'F' is nearly 1:1 what is in the movie outside of fixing a plot hole. He has been doing more than outline for Dragon Ball movies since Battle of Gods honestly. Even his outlines have to approved, otherwise Jiren would have Toppo's personality. And as much as I dogged the manga, he did provide story points to Toyo own stories. Going back to the Future Trunks Saga, we have an interview from one of the producers at the time who outright said nothing goes unless Toriyama okays it and you don't argue with god. That isn't the sign of someone who isn't invested. You could argue you want him more invested, but he isn't just sitting there giving thumb ups to everything.

"You’re overselling his involvement like it’s some kind of official seal of approval."

It isn't overselling. We're told directly what he has and hasn't done. It isn't some well-kept secret. That and Toei and Toyo do treat Toriyama's involvement as 'official seal of approval'. One of the producers of Broly even said how happy he was that Gogeta was finally canon. Yes, they used the world 'canon'.

" he’d just do it."

Which he has literally done with all the movies and have stopped Toyo and Toei from doing stuff he doesn't like which is detailed in several interview over the years. And he outright wrote the stories of all the modern movies and guided the production of everything Super. The only real different is that he's okay with people inserting their own ideas as long as it doesn't goes against his vision. Which is no different than what happened back during the original Dragon Ball run when the Android/Cell Saga went through several changes in the story because his former editor hated the Androids and then his current editor hated every Cell design until Perfect Cell.

[ObnoxiousNamek]

There's probably a couple factions (or more likely a few individuals) in the same level of management with opposing ideas of where to take the franchise, causing some infighting. I can't imagine we'll ever get the true story behind what made them shut down Super's return to weekly TV or why they're going with a lighter plot and cgi on the heels of how much money 2D, action-heavy Broly made.

This makes the most sense but my goodness it’s baffling how do fans have more ideas of where to take the franchise than the people actually making the stuff

[TheMikado]

He wrote the movie before Broly finished which is late 2018, he designed the new characters, the is directly guiding the direction of the movie. What do you mean he isn't involved?

Super happened after the success of Resurrection 'F', a movie that Toriyama personally wrote, and he did the outline for all the major Super arcs. So Super would not have existed without Toriyama because if they were so willing, a new Dragon Ball show would have been created back in 2007 when they begged Toriyama to make a new Dragon Ball series. So yes, Toei did no real big production for Dragon Ball after GT until they got Toriyama back on board. Battle of Gods was literally the only thing they tried because it was an anniversary movie, and Yammy went and begged Toriyama to be part of it. Good lord, even Yo Son Goku was something Toriyama wrote for them.

Battle of Gods isn't Toriyama's original concept, but he personally went back and rewrote the entire movie. Beerus was changed from some evil good who corrupted the Saiyan like Baby and was doing the same to Earth, to a good, if ill-temper god. He also created Whis, remade Super Saiyan God which was going to be a strange mixed of Super Saiyan 3 and 4 with a cap, and created the multiverse while he was at it.

Yeah at no point did I say Toriyama wasn’t involved.

The point was and still remains his level of investment which is to say he isn’t truly invested because if he was he’d be providing a lot more than outlines. He’d just do much of it himself like writing the Super manga. We’ve already seen it repeatedly about what stuff Toriyama actually cares about when an arc is fleshed out and written.

You’re overselling his involvement like it’s some kind of official seal of approval.

Again if he really truly had a conviction to tell a some specific story, he’d just do it. There wouldn’t even be a discussion about his level of involvement: Again his guidance, advisement, etc wouldn’t be “necessary” if he just flat out wrote out the story he wanted. The fact that this isn’t the case shows, in my opinion, there isn’t a strong conviction to tell a specific story.

You stated:

"Lolololol You’re fooling yourself if you think Toriyama’s really truly invested in Dragonball related material these days.."

Like, how much more invested can he be in the movie? You want him to do the story boards? According to the promos, he did all the dialog in the movie. Hell, Toriyama's original script for Resurrection 'F' is nearly 1:1 what is in the movie outside of fixing a plot hole. He has been doing more than outline for Dragon Ball movies since Battle of Gods honestly. Even his outlines have to approved, otherwise Jiren would have Toppo's personality. And as much as I dogged the manga, he did provide story points to Toyo own stories. Going back to the Future Trunks Saga, we have an interview from one of the producers at the time who outright said nothing goes unless Toriyama okays it and you don't argue with god. That isn't the sign of someone who isn't invested. You could argue you want him more invested, but he isn't just sitting there giving thumb ups to everything.

"You’re overselling his involvement like it’s some kind of official seal of approval."

It isn't overselling. We're told directly what he has and hasn't done. It isn't some well-kept secret. That and Toei and Toyo do treat Toriyama's involvement as 'official seal of approval'. One of the producers of Broly even said how happy he was that Gogeta was finally canon. Yes, they used the world 'canon'.

" he’d just do it."

Which he has literally done with all the movies and have stopped Toyo and Toei from doing stuff he doesn't like which is detailed in several interview over the years. And he outright wrote the stories of all the modern movies and guided the production of everything Super. The only real different is that he's okay with people inserting their own ideas as long as it doesn't goes against his vision. Which is no different than what happened back during the original Dragon Ball run when the Android/Cell Saga went through several changes in the story because his former editor hated the Androids and then his current editor hated every Cell design until Perfect Cell.

Very good interview here that outlines the process pretty clearly:

https://animehunch.com/2021/08/16/is-to ... ll_related

To this day, his status as the original author is so highly regarded that if Toei, Shueisha, or anyone else wants to release any merchandise, games, or products, they must first go through Toriyama.

Toyotarō is in charge of the Manga but, Toriyama has the final word on whatever goes in it. In fact, Toyotarō and Toriyama don’t always converse with each other directly. All instructions by Toriyama are sent via E-mail. And it’s up to Toyotarō to decipher its message and come up with the flow of the story. Now he doesn’t do this all alone. Victory Uchida, the editor of V-Jump magazine and the Dragon Ball Super Manga, aids and supervises Toyotarō. The hierarchy goes as follows:

All ideas and suggestions by Toyotarō are first reviewed by Uchida. When he gives the green signal, he and Toyotarō write the basic plot idea and submit it to Toriyama as a proposal. They can only proceed with the story only if Toriyama approves it. When that happens, the original author expands on the idea and creates a full-fledged story. This was the case for the Granolah arc. Then, all three of them sit to discuss how the story can progress.

Note that Toriyama doesn’t visit Shueisha’s office for these meetings. Everything happens via calls, letters and E-mails.

Toyotarō, given his position, doesn’t have the authority to add major plot points or make changes in the established lore. Only and ONLY Toriyama can do such things. He and his apprentice can later discuss them and see whether it all fits well.

Now coming back to the Granolah arc, as I mentioned in a news article, Toyotarō was the one who came up with Granolah the character. He and Uchida wrote a basic outline of the plot and sent it to Toriyama. He took their idea and expanded on it, creating new characters like the Heeters, the Sugarians and Monaito. Toyotarō mentions in the interview that his mentor shared loads of hidden Dragon Ball truths with him and he reveals them chapter by chapter.

While looking at the plot proposal, Toriyama came up with the Heeters. Toyotarō says that the design of Elec, the leader of the gang, really displays his cunning nature.

There’s an interesting tit-bit behind their creation. Toyotarō sent Toriyama some designs but they were rejected 3-4 times. So he gave up and begged his mentor to come up with his own designs. And that’s how these outlines (as shown in the image above) were finalized.

From what I’ve seen in the interview, I think I can safely say that Akira Toriyama wrote the major portion of Granolah the Survivor arc’s story. It was Toyotarō’s idea, but Toriyama fleshed it out and brought it to life. Toyotarō then organizes these plot points, “hidden truths” and characters into monthly chapters.

Furthermore, all character designs, plot ideas, and suggestions must be approved by Toriyama. He then either approves it and advises on how to proceed, or he rejects it. He’s the final word on the Dragon Ball Super Manga. So yeah, he’s more involved here than in the Moro arc.

You’re free to take this however you want, but involvement doesn’t equal investment. To me someone who mostly just takes concepts by email and approves or rejects until he doesn’t like it and does it himself doesn’t sound very invested to me. They don’t even speak directly on the topics sometimes. Toyo shouldnt have to “decipher” email messages. That’s just plain weird. The fact that Toto had to BEG him to make characters doesn’t sound like someone who is particularly invested and that’s him being MORE invested than he was for the Moro arc.

[Xeno Goku Black]

It's a Dragon Ball movie written by Toriyama. That is what most people will pay to see, especially for people who are actually fans of the lesser characters after having two movies focused on Goku and Vegeta.

No sorry but that's not good enough. Toriyama has already wrote three movies. This being a Dragon Ball movie written by Toriyama for the fourth time is not a major selling point anymore.

That is not going to bring in Broly numbers. Broly brought in those numbers because the character is massively popular and they brought him into the canon, that was a big selling point.

What is this movies specific major selling point? What does this movie have going for it that previous movies did not which will cause this movie to be a big hit?

I also find it odd that people are slamming the movie for focusing on characters like Pan and Piccolo when the major complaint of Resurrection 'F' and Broly were that they were too 'fan-service' because they brought Frieza back with a new form, they gave Goku and Vegeta new forms, they made Broly and Gogeta canon, they had Bardock, etc etc. So why are you guys complaining when they make a movie that is lighter on the fan-service and uses less popular characters? Isn't this the type of movie you've been asking for outside of the CGI?

This was criticism that came from a small minority of hardcore Dragon Ball fans only.

Surprise surprise, most fans do want to see Goku and Vegeta as the stars. They do want to see new forms. They do love Broly and Gogeta and want to see more of them.

That is what the majority of fans want and what brings in money.

What they don't want is to go pay to see a Dragon Ball movie to see a three year little girl act all cute.

Broly was a massive success and was very well liked. The art style, the tone, the action, the characters that were used, the forms new and old etc caused it to be a very popular movie.

This is moving away from a winning formula. It's going backwards. It looks worse, it's gonna focus on characters that aren't as popular, it's gonna be more light hearted and probably gonna be less action because of it.

This will not have the success that previous movies have had.

[ObnoxiousNamek]

It's a Dragon Ball movie written by Toriyama. That is what most people will pay to see, especially for people who are actually fans of the lesser characters after having two movies focused on Goku and Vegeta.

No sorry but that's not good enough. Toriyama has already wrote three movies. This being a Dragon Ball movie written by Toriyama for the fourth time is not a major selling point anymore.

That is not going to bring in Broly numbers. Broly brought in those numbers because the character is massively popular and they brought him into the canon, that was a big selling point.

What is this movies specific major selling point? What does this movie have going for it that previous movies did not which will cause this movie to be a big hit?

I also find it odd that people are slamming the movie for focusing on characters like Pan and Piccolo when the major complaint of Resurrection 'F' and Broly were that they were too 'fan-service' because they brought Frieza back with a new form, they gave Goku and Vegeta new forms, they made Broly and Gogeta canon, they had Bardock, etc etc. So why are you guys complaining when they make a movie that is lighter on the fan-service and uses less popular characters? Isn't this the type of movie you've been asking for outside of the CGI?

This was criticism that came from a small minority of hardcore Dragon Ball fans only.

Surprise surprise, most fans do want to see Goku and Vegeta as the stars. They do want to see new forms. They do love Broly and Gogeta and want to see more of them.

That is what the majority of fans want and what brings in money.

What they don't want is to go pay to see a Dragon Ball movie to see a three year little girl act all cute.

Broly was a massive success and was very well liked. The art style, the tone, the action, the characters that were used, the forms new and old etc caused it to be a very popular movie.

This is moving away from a winning formula. It's going backwards. It looks worse, it's gonna focus on characters that aren't as popular, it's gonna be more light hearted and probably gonna be less action because of it.

This will not have the success that previous movies have had.

The vocal minority of the fandom seems like the majority in online spaces.

The ones up top don’t have their finger on the pulse of what the fandom wants to see.

DB movies IMO should have continued to follow the “Broly formula” which is Keep it mostly action (let’s be honest with ourselves the large majority of people go to see these movies for the action) ABSOLUTELY keep it 2-D hand drawn,keep it fun, hit key moments/scenes hard, the rest can be whatever as long as its serviceable.

[HeroR]

It's a Dragon Ball movie written by Toriyama. That is what most people will pay to see, especially for people who are actually fans of the lesser characters after having two movies focused on Goku and Vegeta.

No sorry but that's not good enough. Toriyama has already wrote three movies. This being a Dragon Ball movie written by Toriyama for the fourth time is not a major selling point anymore.

That is not going to bring in Broly numbers. Broly brought in those numbers because the character is massively popular and they brought him into the canon, that was a big selling point.

What is this movies specific major selling point? What does this movie have going for it that previous movies did not which will cause this movie to be a big hit?

I also find it odd that people are slamming the movie for focusing on characters like Pan and Piccolo when the major complaint of Resurrection 'F' and Broly were that they were too 'fan-service' because they brought Frieza back with a new form, they gave Goku and Vegeta new forms, they made Broly and Gogeta canon, they had Bardock, etc etc. So why are you guys complaining when they make a movie that is lighter on the fan-service and uses less popular characters? Isn't this the type of movie you've been asking for outside of the CGI?

This was criticism that came from a small minority of hardcore Dragon Ball fans only.

Surprise surprise, most fans do want to see Goku and Vegeta as the stars. They do want to see new forms. They do love Broly and Gogeta and want to see more of them.

That is what the majority of fans want and what brings in money.

What they don't want is to go pay to see a Dragon Ball movie to see a three year little girl act all cute.

Broly was a massive success and was very well liked. The art style, the tone, the action, the characters that were used, the forms new and old etc caused it to be a very popular movie.

This is moving away from a winning formula. It's going backwards. It looks worse, it's gonna focus on characters that aren't as popular, it's gonna be more light hearted and probably gonna be less action because of it.

This will not have the success that previous movies have had.

Yes and him writing the movies has always been a major selling point. It's literally the same as the One Piece movies. Part of the reason the Super manga is largely ignored in Japan is because they see it as Toyo Dragon Ball and not Toriyama.

We don't know what the movie will do. And it's odd that you're saying that this movie should be fan-service when Broly was derided on this very for being fan-service. It's selling point is a) being another first major Dragon Ball project in three years since most people even in Japan don't read the manga, b) Pan is in a movie for the first time and it isn't GT Pan, and c) it has Gohan in a major role since Resurrection 'F' who is the third most popular character in all of Dragon Ball. He isn't Broly, but y'all treating Gohan like his Krillin.

"This was criticism that came from a small minority of hardcore Dragon Ball fans only."

Except I'm talking about this forum. This isn't a casual site. Although, what to know what is funny. On casual sites, most people are excited about the movie, including freaking Youtube comments. It's only supposed Dragon Ball fans who are tearing their hairs out about 'oh CGI' and 'what's the hook'. Heck, a lot of the excitement I'm seen is people wanting to see if Dragon Ball could pull off a CGI movie. In short, this site is more negative than a Youtube comment section, which is pretty impressive.

"Surprise surprise, most fans do want to see Goku and Vegeta as the stars. They do want to see new forms. They do love Broly and Gogeta and want to see more of them."

And you know what else fans love, they love Gohan and people lost their shit when they saw Gohan in the latest trailer and got people hype. And it's weird you mentioned Gogeta when he wasn't even official confirmed for Broly until weeks before the movie premiered when Super Hero is still four months.

"What they don't want is to go pay to see a Dragon Ball movie to see a three year little girl act all cute."

Right, because you've seen the movie and know that Pan only looks cute in it.

"Broly was a massive success and was very well liked. The art style, the tone, the action, the characters that were used, the forms new and old etc caused it to be a very popular movie."

Which again, people are excited about the CGI on casual sites and Gohan. There is no universal hatred for this movie being CGI.

"This is moving away from a winning formula."

In short, Toei and Toriyama shouldn't take risks after people bitched about them not taking risks.

"It's going backwards. "

Because of the lack of fan-service? Didn't people claimed on this site that they went backwards with Broly?

"it's gonna focus on characters that aren't as popular,"

Gohan is the third most popular Dragon Ball character in Japan and worldwide and people have begged for years to be in a movie again. So they are giving fans what they asked for. Heck, they even change Gohan's gi back to Piccolo because fan asked for that.

"t's gonna be more light hearted and probably gonna be less action because of it."

Less action than Broly, which they stated was going to happened over three years ago when Broly came out. Which people were okay with since people wanted a more chill movie. So this isn't new information.

"This will not have the success that previous movies have had."

I'm going to be blunt, I don't care if this movie is as successful as Broly or if it blows Broly out of the water. It can be the worst performing Dragon Ball movie ever and flops and I would still be proud and happy this movie exists no matter what the outcome is. Because Dragon Ball for the first time in a long time is taking a real risk. Instead of going the safe and proven route like we got in the Super manga, 80% of the Super anime, and Resurrection 'F' and Broly, they're doing something legitimately risky. They're putting the time and money into making a full blown CGI anime movie instead of staying safe in 2D. Despite popular belief, CGI isn't cheaper than 2D, especially in Japan, and this movie isn't cheap CGI either. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if this movies cost way more than Broly. Even more, they're taking this risk and not doing a safe fan-service story like: Frieza meets his lost brother Cooler, they both trained together and get diamond forms, and they come to Earth and Goku and Vegeta has to team-up with Broly to win. That is the type of story you get when studio decided to do a risky venture. But no, we're getting a Battle of Gods type movie that focuses on lesser characters and we have brand new original characters. Not returning ones like Frieza or a reimagine like Broly, but legit new characters. So I applaud Toei and Toriyama for having the balls to do this and I'm not going to judge the story and characters until I see it. Especially how people just dismisses Pan because 'she isn't hype'.

Some of the greatest things in history happened because someone was willing to fall on their ass.

[HeroR]

Yeah at no point did I say Toriyama wasn’t involved.

The point was and still remains his level of investment which is to say he isn’t truly invested because if he was he’d be providing a lot more than outlines. He’d just do much of it himself like writing the Super manga. We’ve already seen it repeatedly about what stuff Toriyama actually cares about when an arc is fleshed out and written.

You’re overselling his involvement like it’s some kind of official seal of approval.

Again if he really truly had a conviction to tell a some specific story, he’d just do it. There wouldn’t even be a discussion about his level of involvement: Again his guidance, advisement, etc wouldn’t be “necessary” if he just flat out wrote out the story he wanted. The fact that this isn’t the case shows, in my opinion, there isn’t a strong conviction to tell a specific story.

You stated:

"Lolololol You’re fooling yourself if you think Toriyama’s really truly invested in Dragonball related material these days.."

Like, how much more invested can he be in the movie? You want him to do the story boards? According to the promos, he did all the dialog in the movie. Hell, Toriyama's original script for Resurrection 'F' is nearly 1:1 what is in the movie outside of fixing a plot hole. He has been doing more than outline for Dragon Ball movies since Battle of Gods honestly. Even his outlines have to approved, otherwise Jiren would have Toppo's personality. And as much as I dogged the manga, he did provide story points to Toyo own stories. Going back to the Future Trunks Saga, we have an interview from one of the producers at the time who outright said nothing goes unless Toriyama okays it and you don't argue with god. That isn't the sign of someone who isn't invested. You could argue you want him more invested, but he isn't just sitting there giving thumb ups to everything.

"You’re overselling his involvement like it’s some kind of official seal of approval."

It isn't overselling. We're told directly what he has and hasn't done. It isn't some well-kept secret. That and Toei and Toyo do treat Toriyama's involvement as 'official seal of approval'. One of the producers of Broly even said how happy he was that Gogeta was finally canon. Yes, they used the world 'canon'.

" he’d just do it."

Which he has literally done with all the movies and have stopped Toyo and Toei from doing stuff he doesn't like which is detailed in several interview over the years. And he outright wrote the stories of all the modern movies and guided the production of everything Super. The only real different is that he's okay with people inserting their own ideas as long as it doesn't goes against his vision. Which is no different than what happened back during the original Dragon Ball run when the Android/Cell Saga went through several changes in the story because his former editor hated the Androids and then his current editor hated every Cell design until Perfect Cell.

Very good interview here that outlines the process pretty clearly:

https://animehunch.com/2021/08/16/is-to ... ll_related

To this day, his status as the original author is so highly regarded that if Toei, Shueisha, or anyone else wants to release any merchandise, games, or products, they must first go through Toriyama.

Toyotarō is in charge of the Manga but, Toriyama has the final word on whatever goes in it. In fact, Toyotarō and Toriyama don’t always converse with each other directly. All instructions by Toriyama are sent via E-mail. And it’s up to Toyotarō to decipher its message and come up with the flow of the story. Now he doesn’t do this all alone. Victory Uchida, the editor of V-Jump magazine and the Dragon Ball Super Manga, aids and supervises Toyotarō. The hierarchy goes as follows:

All ideas and suggestions by Toyotarō are first reviewed by Uchida. When he gives the green signal, he and Toyotarō write the basic plot idea and submit it to Toriyama as a proposal. They can only proceed with the story only if Toriyama approves it. When that happens, the original author expands on the idea and creates a full-fledged story. This was the case for the Granolah arc. Then, all three of them sit to discuss how the story can progress.

Note that Toriyama doesn’t visit Shueisha’s office for these meetings. Everything happens via calls, letters and E-mails.

Toyotarō, given his position, doesn’t have the authority to add major plot points or make changes in the established lore. Only and ONLY Toriyama can do such things. He and his apprentice can later discuss them and see whether it all fits well.

Now coming back to the Granolah arc, as I mentioned in a news article, Toyotarō was the one who came up with Granolah the character. He and Uchida wrote a basic outline of the plot and sent it to Toriyama. He took their idea and expanded on it, creating new characters like the Heeters, the Sugarians and Monaito. Toyotarō mentions in the interview that his mentor shared loads of hidden Dragon Ball truths with him and he reveals them chapter by chapter.

While looking at the plot proposal, Toriyama came up with the Heeters. Toyotarō says that the design of Elec, the leader of the gang, really displays his cunning nature.

There’s an interesting tit-bit behind their creation. Toyotarō sent Toriyama some designs but they were rejected 3-4 times. So he gave up and begged his mentor to come up with his own designs. And that’s how these outlines (as shown in the image above) were finalized.

From what I’ve seen in the interview, I think I can safely say that Akira Toriyama wrote the major portion of Granolah the Survivor arc’s story. It was Toyotarō’s idea, but Toriyama fleshed it out and brought it to life. Toyotarō then organizes these plot points, “hidden truths” and characters into monthly chapters.

Furthermore, all character designs, plot ideas, and suggestions must be approved by Toriyama. He then either approves it and advises on how to proceed, or he rejects it. He’s the final word on the Dragon Ball Super Manga. So yeah, he’s more involved here than in the Moro arc.

You’re free to take this however you want, but involvement doesn’t equal investment. To me someone who mostly just takes concepts by email and approves or rejects until he doesn’t like it and does it himself doesn’t sound very invested to me. They don’t even speak directly on the topics sometimes. Toyo shouldnt have to “decipher” email messages. That’s just plain weird. The fact that Toto had to BEG him to make characters doesn’t sound like someone who is particularly invested and that’s him being MORE invested than he was for the Moro arc.

I read that interview, thank you. I have literally read all Super's interviews, including the ones that said that Toriyama's words is law for better or worst and nothing happens unless he okays it.

If Toriyama is taking the time to write a movie for several years, make character sheets, write the entire dialog of the movie, that is investment.

As for the manga, Toriyama outright said in an interview with Toyo that he wanted Toyo to be bold and come up with his own ideas. So he's training Toyo and trying to get him to be more independent. It's exactly what Shigeru Miyamoto does these days at Nintendo. He no longer direct games, but he trains several people and looked over every game developed and gives his okay or flips the table. No one argues that he isn't investment in his work anymore. It's that his duties has changed from a game designer to management.

[Skar]

This will not have the success that previous movies have had.

I don't think it'll come close to Broly since that performed better than BoG and RoF combined. It might be something that's difficult to replicate since that included some of the most popular characters in the franchise in one movie. I don't know how well it would do but I'd still be interested enough to watch it in theaters if it's playing nearby. It depends if I have to drive more than an hour then I'll probably wait to stream it after a few months.

Edit

Yes and him writing the movies has always been a major selling point. It's literally the same as the One Piece movies. Part of the reason the Super manga is largely ignored in Japan is because they see it as Toyo Dragon Ball and not Toriyama.

Just curious but where would you get that kind of information? Is there a poll that concluded the majority of Japanese fans considered it Toyo's Dragon Ball? I think it would sell worse if that's the case. It's not breaking records but I'm pretty sure it was the best selling sequel and only original first time franchises were higher on the list.

[HeroR]

This will not have the success that previous movies have had.

I don't think it'll come close to Broly since that performed better than BoG and RoF combined. It might be something that's difficult to replicate since that included some of the most popular characters in the franchise in one movie. I don't know how well it would do but I'd still be interested enough to watch it in theaters if it's playing nearby. It depends if I have to drive more than an hour then I'll probably wait to stream it after a few months.

That and Broly was coming off the Super anime ending with people still in full hype mode since the movie was announced around the same time the anime ended.