Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[p-hyvo]

You could make the same statement against any media that isn't the original Japanese manga. It being a video game doesn't make it less valid than the Daizenshuu or the SEG, nor does it make it more valid than Golden Freeza's BP being 10^20 (which was meant to be a joke pun).



Cool, thanks. I don't see myself here often though. Between the time-skip of me not being here, I went from "still in college" to "well on the way to financial freedom". Real life has a lot of ideas on how I should spend my time.

I asked for a consensus to see if there's anything I should consider when I form my opinion. I'm not exactly the most diligent when it comes to these things. I'm no Seththeprogrammer nor will I ever be.

I don't have the galaxy brain to make a Super list, but do we have a consensus on the multipliers of SSG and SSGSS?

Resistance against Kakarot's BPs? I would imagine it's simply the fact that it's new, and gives newer "official" insight. While I agree with you that it's no less official than the Dai, to be fair, you could influence it somewhat to show a slightly different number through gameplay.

Back in the day, when the SEG was new, there were lots of resistance against SS3 being 4x SS2, due to it being ass at feats and fights in-universe. But I haven't really seen that anymore.

Oh yeah, and don't forget about Vegito = Gokuu x Vegeta. I was actually one of the few that took it literally back in the day. But as an older man, I today, can definitely see how it's hard to swallow.

There can't really be consensus on the god multiplier until we are given an official one. And that won't ever happen

If we look at feats, bog arc god is at least omega shenron tier since they scale from the same things

Omega's feats are different from Goku's. Omega was going to destroy the universe by just existing. Heck, any one of the Shadow Dragons could've done that given enough time because that feat was attributed to Negative Energy and not the dragons' power levels. Ssg Goku and Beerus were going to destroy the universe because they clashed with each other at a high power level but GT is a different continuity with different statements, ways of scaling feats, and form multipliers so you can scale GT characters up to Super's level with little to no difficulty despite feats and statements between the two shows making no sense with each other in mind.

Then , the negative karma ball is just that energy from Omega's passive ability concentrated in one point

And Beerus vs Goku negated a mass of energy that would have destroyed the universe (as omega would have) and Goku seemed even with him after that

Beerus≈goku god> super mass of energy≈ negative karma ball> omega

[p-hyvo]

GT Goku's base form becomes stronger than ssj 3 Buu arc after Baby is defeated. Prior to that he equals it.

Becomes stronger than z ssj3 from the get go*

He's kid Buu tier already in EP 1, and kid Buu is blatantly>>z ssj3

I'll never get why nobody understands the way kid Buu was playing with Goku all the time. We see fullpower kid Buu only in one istance, when he was bodying the genkidama

Goku says that he wasn't fighting seriously either and both he and Vegeta claim that at full power Ss 3 Goku could beat Kid Buu. The two are considered equal because it's unclear whether or not Ss 3 Goku could've pulled off beating Buu.

"He" meaning kid Buu? Yes

Kid Buu was totally playing with Goku and Vegeta

The fact that a fully charged ssj3 could have beaten him means nothing, since blasts>> single fighters

[p-hyvo]

But not a lot of people is ready to admit that, same way as as many people can't still admit that the bog statement from Beerus on base Goku doesn't mean shit, since it gets decontestualized Everytime ignoring previously established things and the fact that the rest of the scene that statement is in literally debunks it giving the idea that Beerus didn't really know the power of Frieza and just highballed him due to his role

Ok, since i know that what I said on bog base Goku will be blasted by an horde of no brainers, i come alredy armed finely .

https://i.imgur.com/9EyYKum.jpg
That's Beerus seeing base Goku. Nothing strange, but...

https://i.imgur.com/tDhEdkZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/eaRJtUI.jpg
When Goku turns ssj, Beerus then says this. The thing about base Goku is losing credit now

https://i.imgur.com/WKGNynn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/A6BmvWr.jpg
That's the final shot that kills the thing. Beerus says that after seeing ssj2 Goku.

Soo, or we take this face value to scale z Frieza ≈ bog ssj2>>SPC>>>z Frieza (lmao) or the whole scene is Just Beerus being stupid , wanking Frieza for the role he had and having really no idea of how strong he was.
And that makes sense, from his prospective. We're talking about Beerus, someone so much more stronger than any mortal that any of them looks the same way in his eyes.

Not to talk about the fact that wanting to willingly consider the statement means directly contraddicting all the z scaling at once + what yo son Goku and his friends return extabilished with base Goten and trunks, which i remember being canon to super

I think those are old translations. I just rewatched the fight on Crunchyroll and Beerus never said most of those statements. There's also not much contradicting what Beerus said about Base Goku since most of Base Goku's fights and feats after Frieza are filler. Base Goten and Trunks were rusty and compared to first form Frieza in the special so nothing is contradicted there either.

The fact is that abo and cado aren't compared to base Frieza.
Look the special, Goten and trunks got scouter measured around 7-800K while chilling by the 2 soldiers and they're defined weak by them

The only possible interpretation is abo and cado≈fullpower Frieza

Db is a very basic shonen, if they say x>y or similar things they mean that x is stronger than peak y. Nothing more

Regarding bog, in every dub i can find that i understand the wording is a bit different, il live you that, but there's still the part of Beerus saying that ssj could "barely" defeat Frieza as is was and that still proofs wrong the whole base Goku< Frieza thing , since bog Ssj Goku isn't only barely >Frieza, but by leaps and bounds

[UchihaJogeta]

Thought I'd want to share it on my favourite dragon ball forum I've been having a lot of thoughts regarding power scaling in dragon ball and I figured it would be a good idea to start with something basic. I hope you'll have a look and share your thoughts, I do not mind being told I'm wrong! Have a lovely day

https://youtu.be/UHzqECze2BE

[SoulSurj]

There can't really be consensus on the god multiplier until we are given an official one. And that won't ever happen

If we look at feats, bog arc god is at least omega shenron tier since they scale from the same things

Omega's feats are different from Goku's. Omega was going to destroy the universe by just existing. Heck, any one of the Shadow Dragons could've done that given enough time because that feat was attributed to Negative Energy and not the dragons' power levels. Ssg Goku and Beerus were going to destroy the universe because they clashed with each other at a high power level but GT is a different continuity with different statements, ways of scaling feats, and form multipliers so you can scale GT characters up to Super's level with little to no difficulty despite feats and statements between the two shows making no sense with each other in mind.

Then , the negative karma ball is just that energy from Omega's passive ability concentrated in one point

And Beerus vs Goku negated a mass of energy that would have destroyed the universe (as omega would have) and Goku seemed even with him after that

Beerus≈goku god> super mass of energy≈ negative karma ball> omega

Beerus said he had to release more of his power to stop the super mass of energy. That shows that the power he'd been using to fight Goku wasn't enough to stop a mass of energy at that level.

The scale that you made only works if we assume the full power karma ball and super mass of energy equal each other but the super mass could easily equal Omega's weakened karma ball that a weakened Base GT Goku was able to stop from killing everyone, because it was also made of heavily condensed negative energy.

[SoulSurj]

Becomes stronger than z ssj3 from the get go*

He's kid Buu tier already in EP 1, and kid Buu is blatantly>>z ssj3

I'll never get why nobody understands the way kid Buu was playing with Goku all the time. We see fullpower kid Buu only in one istance, when he was bodying the genkidama

Goku says that he wasn't fighting seriously either and both he and Vegeta claim that at full power Ss 3 Goku could beat Kid Buu. The two are considered equal because it's unclear whether or not Ss 3 Goku could've pulled off beating Buu.

"He" meaning kid Buu? Yes

Kid Buu was totally playing with Goku and Vegeta

The fact that a fully charged ssj3 could have beaten him means nothing, since blasts>> single fighters

No, "he" meaning Goku. Goku said he let the fight drag on so Vegeta would have a turn against Buu. It doesn't matter if blasts are stronger than single fighters because those single fighters can also produce blasts that are stronger than themselves and their opponents.

[SoulSurj]

Ok, since i know that what I said on bog base Goku will be blasted by an horde of no brainers, i come alredy armed finely .

https://i.imgur.com/9EyYKum.jpg
That's Beerus seeing base Goku. Nothing strange, but...

https://i.imgur.com/tDhEdkZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/eaRJtUI.jpg
When Goku turns ssj, Beerus then says this. The thing about base Goku is losing credit now

https://i.imgur.com/WKGNynn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/A6BmvWr.jpg
That's the final shot that kills the thing. Beerus says that after seeing ssj2 Goku.

Soo, or we take this face value to scale z Frieza ≈ bog ssj2>>SPC>>>z Frieza (lmao) or the whole scene is Just Beerus being stupid , wanking Frieza for the role he had and having really no idea of how strong he was.
And that makes sense, from his prospective. We're talking about Beerus, someone so much more stronger than any mortal that any of them looks the same way in his eyes.

Not to talk about the fact that wanting to willingly consider the statement means directly contraddicting all the z scaling at once + what yo son Goku and his friends return extabilished with base Goten and trunks, which i remember being canon to super

I think those are old translations. I just rewatched the fight on Crunchyroll and Beerus never said most of those statements. There's also not much contradicting what Beerus said about Base Goku since most of Base Goku's fights and feats after Frieza are filler. Base Goten and Trunks were rusty and compared to first form Frieza in the special so nothing is contradicted there either.

The fact is that abo and cado aren't compared to base Frieza.
Look the special, Goten and trunks got scouter measured around 7-800K while chilling by the 2 soldiers and they're defined weak by them

The only possible interpretation is abo and cado≈fullpower Frieza

Db is a very basic shonen, if they say x>y or similar things they mean that x is stronger than peak y. Nothing more

Regarding bog, in every dub i can find that i understand the wording is a bit different, il live you that, but there's still the part of Beerus saying that ssj could "barely" defeat Frieza as is was and that still proofs wrong the whole base Goku< Frieza thing , since bog Ssj Goku isn't only barely >Frieza, but by leaps and bounds

Tarble was the one who said Abo and Cado were as strong as Frieza but Tarble had no clue about any form of Frieza other than the first one. I don't know where the 7-800K comes from but if that's the case then that's not even at 2nd form Frieza level so why would final form apply here? Unless you mean Abo and Cado when they fused together but they were still defeated by Ss Goku so nothing says base Goku is stronger than final form Frieza in this instance.

In the English dub Beerus does say Goku is only slightly stronger than him but that's probably because it has to match the characters' lip flaps. In the subbed version Beerus says he can see how Goku beat Frieza but that's probably the best he could do. Which makes sense because Ss Goku isn't at Buu's level and Beerus wouldn't know who Cell was.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku said he let the fight drag on so Vegeta would have a turn against Buu.

That’s not really what Goku said. He only said he showed off and that he should have used everything he’s got from the beginning. Vegeta was even disappointed that Goku wasn’t thinking of him having a turn against Boo.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Why do people even bring up the Abo and Cado situation? Goten and Trunks utterly stomped them, so it’s not like this means they’re close to whatever form of Freeza Abo and Cado were compared to.

[Koitsukai]

How strong do you guys think Android 19 was after absorbing Goku's SS Kamehameha? clearly below a non-sick SS. Did he become much stronger, or maybe a bit stronger and that was it?

Android 20 took a punch to the face from base Goku, which almost knocks him down. This might imply they are not that strong, I mean probably SS Goku could tank a punch to the face without flinching from someone at his base level, instead of almost falling back.


Also, how much stronger than in Namek, could early android arc base Goku be? 5M? 6M? 10M?

[SoulSurj]

Goku said he let the fight drag on so Vegeta would have a turn against Buu.

That’s not really what Goku said. He only said he showed off and that he should have used everything he’s got from the beginning. Vegeta was even disappointed that Goku wasn’t thinking of him having a turn against Boo.

Good catch, I misremembered that one.

[SoulSurj]

How strong do you guys think Android 19 was after absorbing Goku's SS Kamehameha? clearly below a non-sick SS. Did he become much stronger, or maybe a bit stronger and that was it?

Android 20 took a punch to the face from base Goku, which almost knocks him down. This might imply they are not that strong, I mean probably SS Goku could tank a punch to the face without flinching from someone at his base level, instead of almost falling back.


Also, how much stronger than in Namek, could early android arc base Goku be? 5M? 6M? 10M?

I guess it depends how strong Piccolo was because he was clearly stronger than 20, who was stronger than 19. I know some people put them at Frieza's level because of Trunks's statement but since that was retconned I don't think they're that strong. I place Goku a little over 3M because he only trains on Earth during that time. The characters get major boosts from the time chamber but that's about it.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong do you guys think Android 19 was after absorbing Goku's SS Kamehameha? clearly below a non-sick SS. Did he become much stronger, or maybe a bit stronger and that was it?

Android 20 took a punch to the face from base Goku, which almost knocks him down. This might imply they are not that strong, I mean probably SS Goku could tank a punch to the face without flinching from someone at his base level, instead of almost falling back.


Also, how much stronger than in Namek, could early android arc base Goku be? 5M? 6M? 10M?

Gero credited 19's victory to both him getting stronger and Goku getting weaker, so it appears that 19 absorbing the Kamehameha didn't bring him to Sick Goku's level. 19 knocked Vegeta back just as badly as Goku knocked Gero back, and even gave him a bloodied lip. So by the same standards, 19 isn't far off Vegeta.

I don't think 19 and 20 being base Saiyan level pre absorptions is possible though. Even taking into account their durability and Goku's low stamina, Goku would probably have ripped 19 in two pretty quickly if he were that weak. He also bothered to dodge one of 19's punches, so he's not that weak. Dragon Books say the androids overall are stronger than Freeza, so they're definitely closer to SSJ level than to base level. I think Legend of the Manga has a similar placement to them too.


I have Goku at 9.6 million, but it's a bit of a highball. If Yardrat Goku is 4 million, then 5-6 million is a good placement for Goku.

I guess it depends how strong Piccolo was because he was clearly stronger than 20, who was stronger than 19. I know some people put them at Frieza's level because of Trunks's statement but since that was retconned I don't think they're that strong. I place Goku a little over 3M because he only trains on Earth during that time. The characters get major boosts from the time chamber but that's about it.

Was he though? I mean 20 claims to be stronger than 19, but that's before either of them absorbed anything (20 absorbed Yamcha, but meh). Daizenshuu 7 makes the same claim on Android 20's bio, but it could just be comparing their initial states as well.

[Koitsukai]

Thanks for the answers. Now, what do you think regular SS Vegeta and Trunks post ROSAT are able to do? Without grade 2, how strong were they? Did they get stronger or only unlocked a new "form"?

Can they take the androids? All of them? Trunks is finally ready to go back and save his timeline just as a SS?

[ZombieVito]

Thanks for the answers. Now, what do you think regular SS Vegeta and Trunks post ROSAT are able to do? Without grade 2, how strong were they? Did they get stronger or only unlocked a new "form"?

Can they take the androids? All of them? Trunks is finally ready to go back and save his timeline just as a SS?

They got stronger.

Trunks even wondered why Vegeta used Grade 2 since the beginning of his fight with Cell which implies SS Vegeta >=< Initial 2nd form Cell.

Trunks would still one shot the future androids with just SS.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So, this is my definitive format for power levels. Borrowed it from someone else from another forum. It’s pretty much a power levels guide, with little pictures of each character and explanations for each number with sources. Only did the Saiyan Saga and 2/3s of the Freeza Saga this far, but I plan to do all of Dragon Ball minus Heroes which I’ve never watched in my life.

Here’s the list. I’ll make a new post every time I finish a saga. I think this approach is better for discussion than dropping a whole list most people won’t even bother to read.

[Koitsukai]

So, this is my definitive format for power levels. Borrowed it from someone else from another forum. It’s pretty much a power levels guide, with little pictures of each character and explanations for each number with sources. Only did the Saiyan Saga and 2/3s of the Freeza Saga this far, but I plan to do all of Dragon Ball minus Heroes which I’ve never watched in my life.

Here’s the list. I’ll make a new post every time I finish a saga. I think this approach is better for discussion than dropping a whole list most people won’t even bother to read.

I agree mostly, my only grievance is that I wouldn't say Roshi was weaker than Chaozu. I doubt that line you brought up meant to include him but just Goku, Ten, Yamcha and Krilin. He might have problems with Chaozu's magic but he is smart enough and can probably bypass it like Krilin did.

I like the official numbers for the kamehameha, showing it doubles -and then some- the power of the user. But that seems to have been dropped, or was he actually around 4,000 after the taxating KKx3, went up to 12,000 to fight the Galic Gun back and the KHH put him at 24,000? and I see you have Fatigued Goku at 4,000, as well.

This would also have to be applied to what happened on Namek, with the KKx20+KHH, but I don't think it would work. Or maybe for users that strong the attack no longer doubles their power.

Let us know when the next part of your power list is out

[Koitsukai]

How strong is Dai Kaio sama supposed to be? SS Goku and Paikuhan sure made him nervous, at least to the possibility of having to train them. So he can't be above that.

So, is he in android 17 and 18's realm? above that? Super Vegeta material? below the androids??

[Hugo Boss]

Hard to tell, but considering Piccolo confused Shin with the Dai Kaio, I guess he could be stronger than Piccolo as well, but still behind the Super Saiyans.

[ZombieVito]

So, this is my definitive format for power levels. Borrowed it from someone else from another forum. It’s pretty much a power levels guide, with little pictures of each character and explanations for each number with sources. Only did the Saiyan Saga and 2/3s of the Freeza Saga this far, but I plan to do all of Dragon Ball minus Heroes which I’ve never watched in my life.

Here’s the list. I’ll make a new post every time I finish a saga. I think this approach is better for discussion than dropping a whole list most people won’t even bother to read.

I like the format although I will never do it myself since I'm lazy lol.

Not really a fan of not using official power levels but I understand why some wouldn't use them.