Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
To go back to Maki's line, if each Heata has an "unsealed" form, I wonder if they're not all berserkers. Even if that transformation is a species-based trait, the instincts of the other members don't appear to be the same as Gas'. For example, Oil's "instinct" when transformed could be gluttony, Elec could have something related to decadence or scheming (but hates how he looks [like Zarbon]), etc.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
I got to give credit to Toyotaro for only showing Bardock in two pages. That was cool and outright perfect and if that was the last we ever saw of Bardock I wouldn’t complain, but I guess we will see more of him.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
Bardock knows these cats are fucking Freeza over, so when he comes home, why not share this with Freeza or with the King, to be on Freeza's good side?Alruneia wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:34 pm...the what now? Keeping it secret from who? Frieza himself? If so, then Bardock keeping his head down and not saying anything would probably be the best move anyway. I don't think this is a huge issue that especially needs to be addressed.- Why the hell Bardock kept the Heatas screwing Freeza over a secret?
Specially when he is already suspicious of Freeza and will later feel Freeza is going to destroy them, "hey now, why me? they are the ones stealing from you, not me..." seems like the type of intel that can save your life for a while.
That was also why they tried killing Bardock, he literally says "THEY WANT TO BETRAY FREEZA" with a stern face, he "knew" too much, and they feared he was eavesdropping, so what happened with that? that was addressed by the characters and in the story, not a fan theory.
And I seriously hope the next chapter doesn't involve anoooother long fight, this Unsealed Gas should one shot anybody in his way, specially a weakened Bardock look-a-like.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
I have to say it, I'm not a huge fan of this chapter... but i'm wondering what could happen next.
-Heroes are tired and Gas seems to be at full power now. Maybe Monaito is healing Granollah? But he still couldn't do much...
-A fusion? Again?
-Maybe a new character will show up somehow (Bardock?), or Toyotaro can bring Broly in?
I can't see more than 2/3 chapters after this one, and i fear everything will be rushed.
-Heroes are tired and Gas seems to be at full power now. Maybe Monaito is healing Granollah? But he still couldn't do much...
-A fusion? Again?
-Maybe a new character will show up somehow (Bardock?), or Toyotaro can bring Broly in?
I can't see more than 2/3 chapters after this one, and i fear everything will be rushed.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
Yeah that fan work comment was really just hyperbole, I don't even read fan fiction anyways. Also, your last comment basically sums up my thoughts, this story has potential but its being squandered.TKA wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:31 pm If by “fan made stuff”, you mean shit like Dragonball Multiverse, then I must profoundly disagree with you.
Let me be clear. This arc is bad, and the writing right now is trash. But this is still leaps and bounds better than whatever Toei, or Heroes or what the typical western fan would come up with. It’s a very easy bar to clear.
For one, there’s only been 1 new transformation, which is considerable restraint considering what could happen under a worse writer.
I’m just annoyed that the story could be so much better than what it is.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
lmao, this isn't the first time that was the case with Dragon BallOrangeBanana wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:11 pmYeah that fan work comment was really just hyperbole, I don't even read fan fiction anyways. Also, your last comment basically sums up my thoughts, this story has potential but its being squandered.TKA wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:31 pm If by “fan made stuff”, you mean shit like Dragonball Multiverse, then I must profoundly disagree with you.
Let me be clear. This arc is bad, and the writing right now is trash. But this is still leaps and bounds better than whatever Toei, or Heroes or what the typical western fan would come up with. It’s a very easy bar to clear.
For one, there’s only been 1 new transformation, which is considerable restraint considering what could happen under a worse writer.
I’m just annoyed that the story could be so much better than what it is.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
Well, notwithstanding the (slightly dispiriting) vociferousness voiced in some quarters here, I'm pleased to say that I found a fair amount to like in this Chapter - mostly around the relationship between Gas and Elec, because that's what's at the heart of the Chapter (quite unlike the last one) - and I came away feeling pretty positive about it as a result.
I'm gratified to see the instinct/intelligence elements of the arc resurface now (that is to say, 'intelligence' in both its 'intel' sense of information acquired being deployed for specific advantage, and its 'reasoning faculties' sense which Elec embodies in the Heeters' corporate body metaphor) - I'm surprised to see Instinct emerge as a liability at first, given its positive valences so far in the arc and despite its (presumably) unbounded power, requiring Elec to supply himself as the controlling intellect to complete what Gas's instinct alone can't achieve. It is also fitting in the context of their body metaphor that Gas is mindless without Elec to supply that for him: the 'brain' is in more control of the 'hands' than ever, by the end of this Chapter. And Elec synthesises his knowledge about the wish, his knowledge about Gas's abilities, and his knowledge about Gas's aspirations into the central act of the Chapter (unsealing his power), which makes pretty much everything turn out the way it does.
If instinct/intelligence doesn't convince as a framing, then maybe reflection on concepts of what is innate and what is supplied might serve instead? We've seen ideas of that in Granolah's innate abilities and the power supplied by the wish, Goku and Vegeta's innate instinct powers, Bardock's innate 'Humane' sense being stimulated by acquiring a new child so obviously similar to himself, now Gas's innate nature and the supply of control by Elec, etc.
In response, I'd have to say sort of...but also sort of not. That's what makes the Heeter interactions interesting, to me. You're definitely right that they're all more interesting together, as befits their unitary status.
Of course Elec has confidence in Gas now, when he's made the wish that has made Gas the #1 in the Universe - he reveals that reasoning to Macki and Elec when he tells them that the Universe's #1 must, ipso facto, be able to control that power the best and so be everything he's cracked up to be. That's basically tantamount to saying that Elec has full confidence in the wish - it's told him Gas is the best, because that's what he asked the Dragon for. He phrases it to Gas in terms Gas cares about, obviously, but he's also clearly manipulating him (his tone and expressions convey this clearly enough, like they do earlier in the arc whenever he lays it on thick like this), and let's not forget that he's once again unilaterally interfered with Gas against his will to make him into something he never asked to be (and this time the other siblings protest as well, because it makes Gas into a monster), for the ends Elec has planned out.
And yet. It's certainly fair to say that my previous reading of their relationship has read it as too antagonistic. Despite all the foregoing, there's also the sense that Elec has done this from a desire to help his brother, which is strengthened by the extra insight into what took place 40 years ago - he and Gas don't entirely see eye-to-eye (on the subject of...Gas, and his strength specifically, which is his whole purpose in the unit), but Gas was a liability to himself then and was beaten as a result, so the wish can be read as a (semi-)sincere effort on Elec's part to remedy this deficiency in Gas and make him even more the thing he always wanted to be. So I wouldn't call what's going on between Elec and Gas just 'tension' any more, I guess; it's more ambiguous - maybe the most economical way of describing it is simply to say they're brothers. There is a strong, if slightly untypical, strand of 'family' running through the arc. Maybe that's a fruitful avenue of examination in the future? Anyhoo.
So, this'll probably speak to your questions of where the rest of 'Bardock vs. Gas' will be and where Goku fighting for real in Ultra Instinct will be - that is, probably in the same plot beats, possibly by visual references between the past and the present. It's also worth noting that Bardock having an aura is a little unusual (and as Grimlock notes, he's lost his tail), so there may be something more to that as well.
I'm gratified to see the instinct/intelligence elements of the arc resurface now (that is to say, 'intelligence' in both its 'intel' sense of information acquired being deployed for specific advantage, and its 'reasoning faculties' sense which Elec embodies in the Heeters' corporate body metaphor) - I'm surprised to see Instinct emerge as a liability at first, given its positive valences so far in the arc and despite its (presumably) unbounded power, requiring Elec to supply himself as the controlling intellect to complete what Gas's instinct alone can't achieve. It is also fitting in the context of their body metaphor that Gas is mindless without Elec to supply that for him: the 'brain' is in more control of the 'hands' than ever, by the end of this Chapter. And Elec synthesises his knowledge about the wish, his knowledge about Gas's abilities, and his knowledge about Gas's aspirations into the central act of the Chapter (unsealing his power), which makes pretty much everything turn out the way it does.
If instinct/intelligence doesn't convince as a framing, then maybe reflection on concepts of what is innate and what is supplied might serve instead? We've seen ideas of that in Granolah's innate abilities and the power supplied by the wish, Goku and Vegeta's innate instinct powers, Bardock's innate 'Humane' sense being stimulated by acquiring a new child so obviously similar to himself, now Gas's innate nature and the supply of control by Elec, etc.
(I'm going to assume, egotistically, that this comment is meant at least partly for my eyes, given our previous exchanges. If not, apologies for the unsolicited response, but indulge me anyway pls kthks.)Mr Baggins wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:41 am and as it turns out, Elec does have full confidence in his little brother -- which gives Gas the confidence to access his full potential.
In response, I'd have to say sort of...but also sort of not. That's what makes the Heeter interactions interesting, to me. You're definitely right that they're all more interesting together, as befits their unitary status.
Of course Elec has confidence in Gas now, when he's made the wish that has made Gas the #1 in the Universe - he reveals that reasoning to Macki and Elec when he tells them that the Universe's #1 must, ipso facto, be able to control that power the best and so be everything he's cracked up to be. That's basically tantamount to saying that Elec has full confidence in the wish - it's told him Gas is the best, because that's what he asked the Dragon for. He phrases it to Gas in terms Gas cares about, obviously, but he's also clearly manipulating him (his tone and expressions convey this clearly enough, like they do earlier in the arc whenever he lays it on thick like this), and let's not forget that he's once again unilaterally interfered with Gas against his will to make him into something he never asked to be (and this time the other siblings protest as well, because it makes Gas into a monster), for the ends Elec has planned out.
And yet. It's certainly fair to say that my previous reading of their relationship has read it as too antagonistic. Despite all the foregoing, there's also the sense that Elec has done this from a desire to help his brother, which is strengthened by the extra insight into what took place 40 years ago - he and Gas don't entirely see eye-to-eye (on the subject of...Gas, and his strength specifically, which is his whole purpose in the unit), but Gas was a liability to himself then and was beaten as a result, so the wish can be read as a (semi-)sincere effort on Elec's part to remedy this deficiency in Gas and make him even more the thing he always wanted to be. So I wouldn't call what's going on between Elec and Gas just 'tension' any more, I guess; it's more ambiguous - maybe the most economical way of describing it is simply to say they're brothers. There is a strong, if slightly untypical, strand of 'family' running through the arc. Maybe that's a fruitful avenue of examination in the future? Anyhoo.
At least part of me feels that the investment of getting Goku proper access to Ultra Instinct without transforming early in the arc was to enable him to use it in the climax against Gas while being a dead ringer for Bardock - so, having both the psychological advantage from this resemblance (already teased here) and a plausible amount of fighting ability at this level too.Koitsukai wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:02 pmI also liked the ending's implication, Gas having a re-match with this Bardock look-a-like, too bad Goku is battered and cannot/should not put up a fight, but let's see how they work around it. I feel Gas will be the one to tell us how that fight went about.
So, this'll probably speak to your questions of where the rest of 'Bardock vs. Gas' will be and where Goku fighting for real in Ultra Instinct will be - that is, probably in the same plot beats, possibly by visual references between the past and the present. It's also worth noting that Bardock having an aura is a little unusual (and as Grimlock notes, he's lost his tail), so there may be something more to that as well.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
Everyone (rightfully) pointing out how much of a bore fest this arc has become and I'm sitting here wondering where the hell Oatmeel, the Zuno intel and OG-73 fit into this shit at all considering this arc is apparently at its climax. Why even make a big deal about all that in the first place?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
It's a bit like the relationship between Paragus and Broly; although Elec manipulates Gas, I think Elec truly cares for him. It's a grey area that I think both relationships have done well, although we'll have to see how things continue to unfold.
On this topic, I'd like to mention something regarding the wish. Some have speculated that if Gas found out about the condition, he might turn on Elec. I don't think he would. Gas is 100% committed to the cause of Heata, which Elec dictates and Gas enforces however he can. Gas' biggest hang-ups are his loss to Bardock and Elec's decision to hire Granolah, but he puts aside those things to ensure that Heata is on top.
By helping Granolah and opposing Heata, Bardock is acting on instinct. "Power derived solely from instinct is unbounded."So, this'll probably speak to your questions of where the rest of 'Bardock vs. Gas' will be and where Goku fighting for real in Ultra Instinct will be - that is, probably in the same plot beats, possibly by visual references between the past and the present. It's also worth noting that Bardock having an aura is a little unusual (and as Grimlock notes, he's lost his tail), so there may be something more to that as well.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
Is there a reason why people think we're nearing the end of the story? We still have no idea what's going on with 7-3... I get the impression this is closer to the mid-point.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
The Editor, Victory Uchida, has announced the story will be ending "very soon", and people's natural reaction is to link this up with the release of the Movie in April.capsulecorp wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:19 pm Is there a reason why people think we're nearing the end of the story? We still have no idea what's going on with 7-3... I get the impression this is closer to the mid-point.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
Nah, didn't mean to single you out. I think it's actually reasonable to infer that there's some unstated tension between the two, considering Gas's neurosis about his own strength. I might even call it an intended swerve, but I don't think the story has explored their relationship nearly enough to know (or care, for me, if I'm being totally honest) if that's the case.Magnificent Ponta wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:21 pm (I'm going to assume, egotistically, that this comment is meant at least partly for my eyes, given our previous exchanges. If not, apologies for the unsolicited response, but indulge me anyway pls kthks.)
While I'm definitely not disputing that Elec is taking advantage of Gas's strength to some extent, he clearly knows his brother well enough to get through to him with some encouragement. Say what you will about Elec's manipulative tendencies, but he's the only sibling who didn't lose faith in Gas's ability to regain his sense of self even after Macki and Oil did. I think their bond is partly what moved Gas in the first place.Magnificent Ponta wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:21 pm He phrases it to Gas in terms Gas cares about, obviously, but he's also clearly manipulating him
In short, I'd say we agree on the nature of their relationship. "Brotherly" is how I'd best describe it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
Eh this chapter was quite boring. Also I think Toyotaro just needs to keep antagonists in their 1st form with no visible transformation every time he does a design for the next transformation it sucks and looks/feels like a uninspired Xenoverse CaC .The same thing happened with Moro they should have kept his design in 1st form with the long beard only.
Bardock beating gas should have been kept vague as before.The flashback in this chapter makes it’s seems he just beat him with a generic ki blast and not strategy as many hoped.
Bardock beating gas should have been kept vague as before.The flashback in this chapter makes it’s seems he just beat him with a generic ki blast and not strategy as many hoped.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
Will we see Fusion? Or Vegeta getting the kill?
Or maybe Ultra Ego Vegeta, Ultra Instinct Goku, and Granolah on support with sniping vs. Gas?
Or maybe Ultra Ego Vegeta, Ultra Instinct Goku, and Granolah on support with sniping vs. Gas?
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
Probably will. You guys noticed the Moro hand that got cut off and that came back later. Wouldn't be surprised if Goku wears Oatmeal at this pointXeogran wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:18 pm I find it suspicious Oatmeel didn't speak at all this chapter despite all that happened. I also noticed it got punched off from Granolah's eye again, even twice this chapter - once during the clone part and later during Gas' berserk' form rampage. Wonder if this will have any repercussions
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
I see,Magnificent Ponta wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:24 pmThe Editor, Victory Uchida, has announced the story will be ending "very soon", and people's natural reaction is to link this up with the release of the Movie in April.capsulecorp wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:19 pm Is there a reason why people think we're nearing the end of the story? We still have no idea what's going on with 7-3... I get the impression this is closer to the mid-point.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
Well, I've checked out of this arc for the past few months, it's so slow and dragging, and I just don't care about these characters. I'm hoping the next arc changes up the status quo here. Need a break from the Goku/Vegeta show.
The art was solid for the most part, at least.
The art was solid for the most part, at least.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
I completely forgot about these elements. Well, who knows. I fully expect the arc to end with the Heeters escaping rather than begin defeated. I feel like the only real closure needed is Gas being defeated and told to go improve himself by Gokuu.CashmanX wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:49 pm Everyone (rightfully) pointing out how much of a bore fest this arc has become and I'm sitting here wondering where the hell Oatmeel, the Zuno intel and OG-73 fit into this shit at all considering this arc is apparently at its climax. Why even make a big deal about all that in the first place?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
It's not just that it's monthly vs weekly, it's a size issue too. Toriyama-san did more with only 1/3 of the page count. Each monthly installment of Super has at least 3x more pages and yet it covers about the same amount of ground as one of Toriyama-san's weekly chapters if not somehow less. That's where the bulk of the frustration comes from. That and where Toyotarou chooses to put his focus.FlpShimizu wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:17 pm Characters in this franchise solve their issues by fighting, so we'll obviously have lots of that. Thing is, the original manga sprinkled story beats at least once every two weeks, it wasn't a big deal if the whole thing was fighting for a chapter or two. Now we have to wait a whole month to get the story beats and even more fighting. There's no way this won't be boring after some time.
I figured from the spoilers that this would be the best part and it was.Magnificent Ponta wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:21 pm Well, notwithstanding the (slightly dispiriting) vociferousness voiced in some quarters here, I'm pleased to say that I found a fair amount to like in this Chapter - mostly around the relationship between Gas and Elec, because that's what's at the heart of the Chapter (quite unlike the last one) - and I came away feeling pretty positive about it as a result.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread
If there is going to be an actual conflict between Gas and Elec, I have a feeling that it will come from his lifespan being cut from the wish.
Elec is the only one who would know how many years Gas now has left to live after the wish. I'll be very surprised if that doesn't come as a source of conflict between them, especially after Gas said he didn't want the wish in the first place. Gas' wish at the moment feels like less of a monkey's paw situation than Granolah's without that info.
I was floating the idea of Gas only having something drastic like a few weeks to live now, which would also imply that he actually has less potential than Granolah which would push his insecurities over the edge as well.
Elec is the only one who would know how many years Gas now has left to live after the wish. I'll be very surprised if that doesn't come as a source of conflict between them, especially after Gas said he didn't want the wish in the first place. Gas' wish at the moment feels like less of a monkey's paw situation than Granolah's without that info.
I was floating the idea of Gas only having something drastic like a few weeks to live now, which would also imply that he actually has less potential than Granolah which would push his insecurities over the edge as well.