Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 81 - Official Discussion Thread

[kemuri07]

The reason why this thread has been fairly negative is because, well, this arc has not been good. Like at all. And I feel like I have been pretty fair towards this is as I was one of those champion the beginning of this arc. Scratch that, I’ve been pretty much in Toyotaro’s corner as that guy who pretty much believes the manga adaptation is superior in nearly every way to the anime. So I’m not just shitting on this arc just to be mean.

There are some fundamental issues with this story arc that is exacerbated by being a monthly feature. I want this to be good, and the beginning of this arc made me hope that DBS was attempting to do something different, but there’s nothing here I care about. If people are enjoying it, that’s totally fine. But people who are not digging this have valid reasons.

[picc]

Cant help but feel like if the last two (three?) chapters had been combined into one, I wouldnt feel so massively underwhelmed and disappointed.

[KentMan]

A certain YouTuber who I will not be naming thinks that Gas teleporting Elec without touching him is new. Clearly he has not seen Whis and the Grand Priest do something similar but more powerful. As for this chapter I’m literally split on it it was a lot better than seeing Granolah fight but it happened after. Really does nothing but drag the story out as usual but than again they were some folks that was complaining that the TOP manga arc should have been long. Oh yes the irony. I’m still bothered that Toyotaro is drawing Gokus face fat again in base and even in SSB sometimes. By the end of this chapter we was speculating on where they’re going now I’m assuming they’re going to jump planet to planet.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

I feel like Toyotaro sat down and watched No Way Home between last chapter and this chapter and was inspired by the train scene from that movie.

Decent chapter overall. Toyotaro continues to draw great art and I’m so relieved we’re finally getting a change in scenery.

[mute_proxy]

"Now that you know our plan we can't let you live" - Elec to Goku.

What was their plan again? And was Goku told of it?

[nato25]

I'm surprised at the negativity of this chapter, I was genuinely interested in this one where in the last few I'd be rushing through pages of fighting in hopes of anything interesting.

I guess as the last few pages have been so action-heavy people might have been hoping for more story and I guess that's a failing of Toyotaro having a good ebb and flow with the chapters. But the action here was unique (even if I questioned why Gas wouldn't put spikes on both sides of those walls he was making), the Granolah 'kill' was satisfyingly brutal and the villains cemented themselves as being pure evil.

I enjoy Goku challenging Gas to an instant transmission battle as well. Seems like he's goading him to get the upper hand and I'm excited to see how that will pay off. I know people are saying we will see a vampa cameo and I am leaning to agree with that. Lots of cool potential with how this might happen.

[Magnificent Ponta]

"Now that you know our plan we can't let you live" - Elec to Goku.

What was their plan again? And was Goku told of it?

The plan is to displace Freeza and take his army so that the Heeters can run the 'business' of planet-destroying and selling themselves without having to serve him or cut him into the profits. Goku is not told this in direct speech that we can see in a panel, but it is in the story Monaito recounts to Granolah, Goku and Vegeta about the day the Cerealians were destroyed, as he overheard the Heeters saying so among themselves (Chapter 77). So Goku does know the plan.

[Chuquita]

I liked the use of trains, learning it was likely a reference and not an original idea lowers it a bit, but I still liked it.

The rest of the chapter is still mild to me.

[Mr Baggins]

Really does nothing but drag the story out as usual but than again they were some folks that was complaining that the TOP manga arc should have been long. Oh yes the irony.

There's only irony if you assume everyone making those critiques are the same people. For my part, I love the manga's Universe Survival arc. It's smartly written, well-paced, has great characterization and character dynamics, and dedicates most of its focus to the throughlines it promised to develop from the start, rather than on background fodder it didn't. To this day, I don't think anyone has made a single compelling argument as to why it's "rushed".

Like kemuri07, I've been in the manga's corner for years. I think it's the definitive version of Super, but I can simultaneously think the current direction Toyotaro wants it go in isn't remotely acceptable.

...well, except for the art. That shit slaps.

[KentMan]

I feel like Toyotaro sat down and watched No Way Home between last chapter and this chapter and was inspired by the train scene from that movie.

Decent chapter overall. Toyotaro continues to draw great art and I’m so relieved we’re finally getting a change in scenery.

His art would be better if he drew Goku slim and not fat in the face. I always disliked how he drew UI Goku in the Moro arc. In the TOP he was like Whis Beerus and Shin his slim physique matched up with them.

[KentMan]

Really does nothing but drag the story out as usual but than again they were some folks that was complaining that the TOP manga arc should have been long. Oh yes the irony.

There's only irony if you assume everyone making those critiques are the same people. For my part, I love the manga's Universe Survival arc. It's smartly written, well-paced, has great characterization and character dynamics, and dedicates most of its focus to the throughlines it promised to develop from the start, rather than on background fodder it didn't. To this day, I don't think anyone has made a single compelling argument as to why it's "rushed".

Like kemuri07, I've been in the manga's corner for years. I think it's the definitive version of Super, but I can simultaneously think the current direction Toyotaro wants it go in isn't remotely acceptable.

...well, except for the art. That shit slaps.

I liked the manga TOP arc it was my favorite and the art was really shining there. When I saw UI Goku in omen and the silver haired form. It looked way better than the anime version and even the Moro arc. Very slim not big and bulky, youthful features the best Goku has been drawn in recent years. With the Granolah arc it looks like it’s going back to that but who knows. I can tell ya in this chapter it’s nice to see Goku drawn cool again ever since chapter 72 to now. Except base Goku Toyotaro needs to stop drawing his face fat.

[Kakarotto92]

Everytime I read these manga threads, I'm so glad the original manga came out when it did and weekly.

I'm not comparing Toyotaro to Toriyama, or this manga to the original, but I'm sure if Goku vs Piccolo Jr., Goku vs Vegeta, Goku vs Freeza, the Cell games or the last few Boo fights (from Mystic Gohan to Kid Boo) were coming out monthly in 2021/2022, there'd be a lot of the same complaints that have been made against this last few chapters (nitpicking, whining about the pacing, being "boring", etc.)

As someone from V-Jump said a few months ago, this is the climax of the arc and with Gas being the strongest villain right now (even if he's not the main villain), THIS IS the final battle of the arc. This is this arc's Goku vs Freeza or Cell games, so of course it's going to take a while, just like it did back in the day.

The only difference is, most Western fans first watched Dragon Ball way after both the manga and anime were finished in Japan. We got a new episode everyday on TV, which is totally different from waiting a month for 40 pages of manga.

This whole Gas fight would be over in 4 days (4 episodes) if we were watching it everyday on some TV channel in your country, which is how it happened with Z in western countries in the 90's and 2000's. That is the difference.

[TKA]

Everytime I read these manga threads, I'm so glad the original manga came out when it did and weekly.

I'm not comparing Toyotaro to Toriyama, or this manga to the original, but I'm sure if Goku vs Piccolo Jr., Goku vs Vegeta, Goku vs Freeza, the Cell games or the last few Boo fights (from Mystic Gohan to Kid Boo) were coming out monthly in 2021/2022, there'd be a lot of the same complaints that have been made against this last few chapters (nitpicking, whining about the pacing, being "boring", etc.)

What a trite observation.

The complaints being levelled at the manga right now are complaints that would've never been given to Toriyama's. The last 3 chapters, for example, have been extended, predictable fight scenes. That's 3 months' worth of pages. In the original manga, wild, subversive shit happens every couple of chapters. Toriyama knows that Dragonball isn't a story about fights or fight choreography, so he spends almost no time on that shit.

Also, it's just a disservice both to Toriyama and Toyotaro to compare them. Toriyama is legitimately an artistic genius on the level of a George Lucas, Shinichiro Watanabe, Kurosawa or any other genre-defining talent out there. Toyotaro is, for all intents and purposes, a novice compared to him. Why compare him to Toriyama? It devalues Toriyama's work and makes Toyotaro look bad.

You can defend Toyotaro's manga without invoking silly arguments of hypocrisy, or making holier-than-thou claims like you're doing here.

[KentMan]

Everytime I read these manga threads, I'm so glad the original manga came out when it did and weekly.

I'm not comparing Toyotaro to Toriyama, or this manga to the original, but I'm sure if Goku vs Piccolo Jr., Goku vs Vegeta, Goku vs Freeza, the Cell games or the last few Boo fights (from Mystic Gohan to Kid Boo) were coming out monthly in 2021/2022, there'd be a lot of the same complaints that have been made against this last few chapters (nitpicking, whining about the pacing, being "boring", etc.)

What a trite observation.

The complaints being levelled at the manga right now are complaints that would've never been given to Toriyama's. The last 3 chapters, for example, have been extended, predictable fight scenes. That's 3 months' worth of pages. In the original manga, wild, subversive shit happens every couple of chapters. Toriyama knows that Dragonball isn't a story about fights or fight choreography, so he spends almost no time on that shit.

Also, it's just a disservice both to Toriyama and Toyotaro to compare them. Toriyama is legitimately an artistic genius on the level of a George Lucas, Shinichiro Watanabe, Kurosawa or any other genre-defining talent out there. Toyotaro is, for all intents and purposes, a novice compared to him. Why compare him to Toriyama? It devalues Toriyama's work and makes Toyotaro look bad.

You can defend Toyotaro's manga without invoking silly arguments of hypocrisy, or making holier-than-thou claims like you're doing here.

But it’s easy to forget that Toriyama allows Toyotaro to do a lot things that some criticize. I equate them to George Lucas and Dave Filoni except Filoni is worse he’s dishonest compared to Toyotaro.

[Jinto]

The feeling of "nothing is happening" is the reason I want to confirm the nature itself of Toyotaro's work. Is it supposed to be a mainline work or some sort of spin off.

I lean toward the latter and find myself more indulging and enjoying new chapter (apart from the better art he pulled off lately).
Perhaps everybody else should do the same

[KentMan]

The feeling of "nothing is happening" is the reason I want to confirm the nature itself of Toyotaro's work. Is it supposed to be a mainline work or some sort of spin off.

I lean toward the latter and find myself more indulging and enjoying new chapter (apart from the better art he pulled off lately).
Perhaps everybody else should do the same

I say in my opinion his art fluctuates it was to me terrible in the Moro arc. The Granolah arc don’t mind as much. And what he’s doing isn’t a spin off I know there’s some that don’t like that he has Toriyama mainly working with him compared to the anime. But it is what it is.

[TKA]

But it’s easy to forget that Toriyama allows Toyotaro to do a lot things that some criticize. I equate them to George Lucas and Dave Filoni except Filoni is worse he’s dishonest compared to Toyotaro.

From what we know of their relationship, Toriyama doesn’t get too involved and only changes things that are egregious. From what we know of Toriyama as a creator, he tends to give people cart Blanche to do as they want. He was actively asking Toyotaro to put more of himself into the story.

What I’m basically saying is Toriyama don’t give a shit. The last two arcs have been Toyotaro’s time to sink or swim and he has been sinking.

But you know, a monthly manga that most Dragonball fans will never read is a good place to learn how to swim.

[KentMan]

From what we know of their relationship, Toriyama doesn’t get too involved and only changes things that are egregious. From what we know of Toriyama as a creator, he tends to give people cart Blanche to do as they want. He was actively asking Toyotaro to put more of himself into the story.

What I’m basically saying is Toriyama don’t give a shit. The last two arcs have been Toyotaro’s time to sink or swim and he has been sinking.

But you know, a monthly manga that most Dragonball fans will never read is a good place to learn how to swim.

Hmmm I can see your reasoning but Toyotaro said that he can’t do what he wants which complicates things. Since the introduction of Whis and Beerus and DB Minus it’s clear that Toriyama was losing his edge that he used to have. Had those two not been in the series the manga and even the anime would have been better off.

[Koitsukai]

I don't have a problem with Geets having Goku fight Gas, besides it's his turn and the previous chapter ended with Goku succesfully standing up to Gas. Goku has a better technique and more mastery over it, and as Geets said, Goku is in better shape, after being nothing but a Z assist for the past 6 chapters. Besides, like always, they'll defeat Gas as a team.

Like somebody else said, maybe it would've been better if Vegeta was counting on whatever Bardock did to Gas, to still have some kinda of effect on him like it did in chapter 80, but whatever.

Besides, Vegeta doesn't have much to do with Gas either, other than being the son of a guy that knew who his older brother was 40 years ago, that's why he gave Granny the senzu.
On the other hand, Goku is the son of somebody that humiliated Gas, it might not go both ways but Gas sure has some connection to Goku. Granola is also kinda connected to Goku, Bardock saved his ass, not the King. That's more than what Gohan got, meeting Cell that day and all.

[The Monkey King]

Why doesn't Gas just cripple Goku with one punch, I mean he's like waaaaaay stronger than him

But seriously, the issue with making Granolah the protagonist of this arc is two fold

1. Granolah hasn't panned out to be a very compelling protagonist, aside from wishing on the Dragon Balls, he's become very passive and characters end up making decisions for him and manipulating him quite a lot. Like that scene where Vegeta basically orders him to take the senzu bean would've made for a much better character moment is Granolah convinced Vegeta that he take it for himself after finding out that it can heal injuries.

2. With Goku taking the wheel again, he feels like a guest character in an entirely different manga, where he doesn't even belong, he even says to Gas "Look, can we just not do this please?..." He has no convincing connection to the guy he is fighting and so we're left with this hamfited Bardock connection, which doesn't really add any real depth for me.