I'm Pissed of copycat called DragonBall Super

[CrazyPenguin]

I needed to vent somewhere so I decided here to explain why I am pissed of DragonBall Super when I saw the DragonBall Super Heroes trailer.

DragonBall Super just keeps re-using same things from DragonBall series, DBZ series and other anime. This pisses me off because this is all done just for the money and not actually to create or continue DragonBall series we love so much at the endding of DBZ. There is no originality, no creative mind all they do is re-use same stuff that happened in DBZ with no story build up or anything. Examples:

Zamasu - Just same old Trunks time travel all over again from DBZ with horrible ending

Frieza revival - WHY ? He got defeated and killed it was an epic story and ending with a twist with Trunks actually killing him, why bring him back? The whole point of defeating him in DBZ is pointless now.

Caulifla and Kale - Just add boobs to OG Broly and then give them 2 super saiyan levels in one day with no build up to it.

Tournament of Power fighters - You have power rangers, transformers, sailor moon, Hitman, copy of Frieza, Ginyu Force, ect... Apparently Krillin can fight Gods now, but in DBZ he was more of a support senzu been guy.

Vegeta - Remember how Vegetas Final Flash and his sacrifice against Buu was one time epic moment in DBZ ? Well now he is giving it away like Oprah to everyone.

Transformations - They could not think of anything better then to just change hair to random colors ? Ultra Instinct was epic that should have been the only transformation and kept it as a God level then go for unique transformations like MUI and Ego as series end transformations. Golden Frieza....really ? Even Cooler had an epic transformation they could not do something for Frieza as well ? Just color change him too.

Story - Haven't seen one so far. Remember DBZ ? The build up to Majin Vegeta vs Goku fight ? RR Army build up to Cell fight ? Whole Saiyan - Frieza arc ? They could not think of a good story even if they started with a good foundation introducing Gods of destruction and multiple universes. They also just scrambled some fast same old classic "parents killed by evil" story for Jiren. He would been better of staying mysterious.

Gohan - Same old Gohan From Cell saga returning to awakened SS2 (no point of mystic anymore) fighting Androids again same old thing that they did in DBZ.

New Moro arc - Repeating things from Cell and Android saga all over again.


this can go on...I think you all see my point here.

Only think that I love in DB Super is that they introduced Gods of Destruction, brought back Broly and the Ultra Instinct transformation. But they will probably fuck up Broly as well like everything so far.

If they did this out of love and actually wanting to create a series that will continue the DBZ story they might have create a lot more in less episodes then flushing out as much episodes as possible fast just to make money with no time thinking of a good plot.

[Raki]

Dragonball Super has the right amount of comedy and action. I think you are digging too deeply honestly. At least in this series the heroes are constantly reaching new heights while fleshing out the universe. I look forward to the new film and the future of this great franchise.

[Grimlock]

Story - Haven't seen one so far.

I guess one could say there is a story in Future Trunks saga. Well, it's definitely the only saga that stands out for me, precisely for having something resembling a story. Which is also something I can't find in other sagas.

There is a story in the first twenty five minutes of Movie 1. You can tell something is going on. The problem is that it's rushed, in favor of more prolonged battles, a shame.

[SupremeKai25]

This thread is the ultimate proof that the writers can't win, no matter what they do.

This thread complains that the writers are trying too much to emulate DBZ.

While this thread complains that the writers are NOT doing enough to emulate DBZ and as a result DBS doesn't feel like Dragon Ball:

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=47078

Literally: What are the writers supposed to do and who should they listen to???

Anyway OP, saying that the Zamasu saga is a rehash of the Cell saga just because they both deal with time travel is a very bad and poor argument. Yes, they both deal with time travel, just like all arcs of Z deal with world-ending battles, does that mean all arcs in DBZ are generic and unoriginal? No.

So saying that Cell saga = Zamasu saga just because they both have time travel is asinine. It's not even such an accurate comparison, because Zamasu manipulated time using the Time Ring (newly-introduced artefact) and not a stolen time machine like Cell did.

[Vijay]

Dragonball Super has the right amount of comedy and action. I think you are digging too deeply honestly. At least in this series the heroes are constantly reaching new heights while fleshing out the universe. I look forward to the new film and the future of this great franchise.

Even the actions are comedy in dbs

l think your statment "Heroes reachin new heights while fleshin out universe" translates to a**pull whn toyo cant come-up with a coherent, gradual storyline with powerups

[Raki]

Dragonball Super has the right amount of comedy and action. I think you are digging too deeply honestly. At least in this series the heroes are constantly reaching new heights while fleshing out the universe. I look forward to the new film and the future of this great franchise.

Even the actions are comedy in dbs

l think your statment "Heroes reachin new heights while fleshin out universe" translates to a**pull whn toyo cant come-up with a coherent, gradual storyline with powerups

If I want a serious story I'll watch something else.

[MyVisionity]

If I want a serious story I'll watch something else.

Something like Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z?

[Aim]

What? Zamasu was super interesting, especially Black.

[Saiya6Cit]

I haven't watched super but the following comes to me: have you listed to rihanna? all of her songs basically are alike, same with the red hot chilli peppers and punk bands such as blink 182 etc, they call it music genre and the style of an artist, it seems like more of the same sometimes, right? but it isn't exactly. Similar case with starwars, if you watch the newer series it seems like a mashup of all startwars trilogies and even clone wars. Hoewever the story is still new and exciting.

I have came to accept DBS as something unevitable. Newer generations need to know dragon ball. It has that new color pallete totally different to oiginal DB and DBZ, different music and plots cause, well, decades have passed. There are a bunch of things that bothers me (I have posted about it) but overall I am cool with DBS, as I understand it's purpose which is to perpetuate Goku and company's adventures and hopefully motivate people to watch dragon ball Z.

[Jord]

Vegeta - Remember how Vegetas Final Flash and his sacrifice against Buu was one time epic moment in DBZ ? Well now he is giving it away like Oprah to everyone.

I agree with most of it. The way you worded this was hilarious.

[CrazyPenguin]

This thread is the ultimate proof that the writers can't win, no matter what they do.

This thread complains that the writers are trying too much to emulate DBZ.

While this thread complains that the writers are NOT doing enough to emulate DBZ and as a result DBS doesn't feel like Dragon Ball:

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=47078

Literally: What are the writers supposed to do and who should they listen to???

Anyway OP, saying that the Zamasu saga is a rehash of the Cell saga just because they both deal with time travel is a very bad and poor argument. Yes, they both deal with time travel, just like all arcs of Z deal with world-ending battles, does that mean all arcs in DBZ are generic and unoriginal? No.

So saying that Cell saga = Zamasu saga just because they both have time travel is asinine. It's not even such an accurate comparison, because Zamasu manipulated time using the Time Ring (newly-introduced artefact) and not a stolen time machine like Cell did.

Out of all comments I feel the need to reply to this one because its I found it as false understanding of what I wrote.

I don't complain about Super not being as DBZ, I am complaining about Super not continuing where DBZ left of with new stories and adventures (example: introducing Uub, Goten and Trunks having more of impact as adults or kids, Broly was a good introduction, new 1 transformation like UI, new stories that don't repeat DBZ's stories, new plot twists, something new not predictable), instead they just copy/paste a lot from DBZ and other anime (example: Frieza again, time travel again, androids again, Vegetas sacrifice again, kale copying OG Broly, RR army again, lazy transformations, fighters from other universes copied from other anime or just same old Nemekians, different Frieza, Goku dying again from HIT at the start of new series,...ect.)

I mention DBZ as an example of how they did it right with unexpected plot twists and good story build up how everything was conected and made sense until Majin Buu (example: introduction of Trunks and him killing Frieza, Gohan defeating Cell, Majin Vegeta and his sacrifice, Goku the main character death at the start of the show, ect...)

I found Super to be way too much predictable and not interesting, the only thing that Super is worth watching for me is the fights, but everything else I feel like skipping just to get to the fights. I am a fan of this series from my childhood and literally watched all shows, movies and played games all of it since early PS1.

Even the fights in Super are cringe to watch sometimes as fighters spend too much time talking and explaining in detail every punch or move they make to their opponent instead of shutting the hell up and fighting. I am used to spectators commenting in DB series as it was a filler to prolong the episode but they seriously overdid it with Super it looks more like a Pokemon battle.

[SupremeKai25]

I found Super to be way too much predictable and not interesting, the only thing that Super is worth watching for me is the fights, but everything else I feel like skipping just to get to the fights. I am a fan of this series from my childhood and literally watched all shows, movies and played games all of it since early PS1.

Okay so I acknowledge your complaint, but I have some questions for you:

- Did you predict that Frieza would blow up the Earth and kill Vegeta and force Whis to use powers for the first time?

- Did you predict that Goku would concede the fight against Hit and Monaka would be the winner?

- Did you predict that Zamasu would take over the entire Future Multiverse, kill everyone, and force Zeno to erase everything?
BONUS QUESTION about the FT arc: Did you predict that Goku Black is a version of Zamasu that survived Beerus and stole Goku's body with the Super DBs?

- Did you predict that Android 17 would win the Tournament of Power?
BONUS QUESTION about the ToP arc: Did you predict that Hit and U6 in general would be eliminated only midway through the tournament?

- Did you predict that the fight with Broly would end with a last-second wish sending Broly back to Planet Vampa?

-MANGA-

Did you predict that Moro would turn into an ugly blob and merge with the Earth?

Since you say Super is soooo predictable, I am assuming that the answer to at least 2/3 of these questions will be "Yes", be sincere please

Even the fights in Super are cringe to watch sometimes as fighters spend too much time talking and explaining in detail every punch or move they make to their opponent instead of shutting the hell up and fighting. I am used to spectators commenting in DB series as it was a filler to prolong the episode but they seriously overdid it with Super it looks more like a Pokemon battle.

Actually I haven't noticed this at all, at least in the anime and movies. There are some breaks in the fight where the villain maybe spends some time to explain their origins and plans (like Black taking his time mid-fight to explain his origins, which is identical to what Cell did in DBZ), but I can't think of any fight where a lot of time is spent explaining some "technical battle things" like a technique or strategy.

[CrazyPenguin]

Okay so I acknowledge your complaint, but I have some questions for you:

Its not about me predicting its about Super copying DBZ. When I watched I hoped and expected the outcome to be different, fresh, new, shocking. I was wrong they only copied DBZ again. I can't predict the same outcome as DBZ when I expected someihng new. So here is how I will answer as follows:

- Did you predict that Frieza would blow up the Earth and kill Vegeta and force Whis to use powers for the first time?

Majin Buu did it in DBZ, Frieza killed Vegeta in DBZ, he also did a rage quit on Namek and blew it up in DBZ. Whis power was irrelevant.

- Did you predict that Goku would concede the fight against Hit and Monaka would be the winner?

He did it against Cell also in DBZ, and someone who we did not expect Gohan won.

- Did you predict that Zamasu would take over the entire Future Multiverse, kill everyone, and force Zeno to erase everything?
BONUS QUESTION about the FT arc: Did you predict that Goku Black is a version of Zamasu that survived Beerus and stole Goku's body with the Super DBs?

Androids 17 & 18 already did it in future timeline in DBZ. Zeno ending was lazy way to get the story over. Body snatching was a DBZ thing, Ginyu did it to Goku already. Evil Goku was a nice touch and start but they screwed the entire story and ending.

- Did you predict that Android 17 would win the Tournament of Power?
BONUS QUESTION about the ToP arc: Did you predict that Hit and U6 in general would be eliminated only midway through the tournament?

No. This was actually shocking, new, fresh. I like this part of Super. His wish at the end was also a nice touch.
Bonus answer: Irrelevant to the story, we already knew Universe 7 was going to win so U6 dropping out from start, midway or end is irrelevant.

- Did you predict that the fight with Broly would end with a last-second wish sending Broly back to Planet Vampa?

I already mentioned that Broly was a good thing from Super. And they changed the story from what it was in DBZ. It was a fresh experience. But its also a movie. They might screw him up in series as well.

Did you predict that Moro would turn into an ugly blob and merge with the Earth?

Cell turned into a blob in DBZ and if they tried to kill him Earth will be also gone.

[CrazyPenguin]

Actually I haven't noticed this at all, at least in the anime and movies. There are some breaks in the fight where the villain maybe spends some time to explain their origins and plans (like Black taking his time mid-fight to explain his origins, which is identical to what Cell did in DBZ), but I can't think of any fight where a lot of time is spent explaining some "technical battle things" like a technique or strategy.

Let me explain this in this way. An example (not actual said words):

DBZ during fight scene
Figther 1: I want to kill you because of X reason, because you did X to me, you have taken X from me
(providing us a filler about story behind this fight)
Fighter 2: I trained X amount with X master on X place to gain this X power
(providing us a filler about their training and power development)
Spectator: commenting the fight and possible tactics or strategies

DB Super during fight scene
Fighter 1: I went for a right hand punch in your face when I saw you turning to the right
(explaining a process of someone being punched in the face)
Fighter 2: I knew you were going to try to punch me with your right hand so I turned left instead
(explaining a process of someone dodging a punch)
Spectator: repeating what Fighter 1 and Fighter 2 already said to everyone else

You can see this in Goku vs HIT or Jiren vs Goku and Vegeta, fight against pride troopers, ect....More like a Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh battle. No useful filler just some pointless explanation of their every move we already know because we are watching it.

[ABED]

(explaining a process of someone being punched in the face)

Psst, that also happens a LOT in DBZ

Goku punches some dude in the face
Kuririn: Wow, Goku punched that dude really hard in the face!

He did it against Cell also in DBZ, and someone who we did not expect Gohan won.

Monaka won because Hit also gave up.

[Krillin1994]

I'm Pissed of a copy cat called Dragonball.

does a tournament, then does a tournament again, then does a tournament again

does red ribbon army then does red ribbon army again.

heck does Piccolo then next arc does Piccolo again and OMG its a tournament again

Has Goku turn into a giant Ape, then he does it again next arc where he lost his tail but regained it in a pinch. Gohan lost his tail and regained it in a pinch and became a giant Ape against the main antagonist who was a giant Ape. When the arc prior to that we had Piccolo become giant.

(This is of course just me joking around I have a proper reply )

Point I'm trying to make Dragonball has always rehashed a lot of similar scenario's and formats for the storytelling. but to offer my views on all of the points you made

Future Trunks Arc - has our protagonists actually journey into the future itself something none of them did before. Did Rehash fusion I suppose, also gave a very weird ending. We did also get Goku venture into another Universe even if it was just a very limited. My main issue is they just seem to go the future and leave 3 times. (I will address this issue with the stories later being just travel to x location and fight until arc ends)

RoF - I'll give you that was a bit naff and uninspired but always grateful it brought us Jaco into the main Dragonball series.

Caulifla and Kale - Kale's broly form was the worst bit about them. But they gave us probably my favourite section of fighting in the Top from when Goku starts fighting Caulifla alone, to have Kale join in then Kefla (with a universally loved finishing move. One of the most memorable endings to a fight in the dragonball revival era.

TOP Fighters - most were rubbish yeah no denying that but saying power rangers like its a bad thing when Ginyu Force are evil power rangers. Krillin fighting SSB Goku was just Goku testing Krillin's resolve he could be up against fighters out of his league and Goku needed to know he wouldn't waver. He clearly held back since SSB is stated to have fine Ki control. Krillin was a support guy in Z but also when needed would face up to stronger foes knowing he was at a disadvanatge.

Vegeta using final flash all the time - For the viewers we say it undermines it by just rehashing it. But for a warrior who's spent the time coming up with a technique why would they just use it once then never again. Trying to rehash his Buu sacrifice was trash though, I'll give you that.

Transformations - SS2 on characters besides Teen Gohan barely looked different to regular SS just adding lightning to their aura. You say that Ultra instinct transformation was cool - but you could argue that a transformation where the users hair was still its base colour and was the pinnacle of power when it was introduced kinda sounds similar to Ultimate Gohan.

Story - I do feel the original run of Super was quite weak in stories for it's arcs compared to DB/Z but am unsure if it's just because I'm not the child I was discovering anime through DBZ. That being said Moro arc actually felt like a fun story to me as unlike the very simple structure of Super which seemed to be we go to X and just fight there until the end of the arc. We got different planets, strong new supporting character in Merus, Multi formed villains. Henchmen breathing room with training going on mid arc that isn't just Vegeta is in time chamber again. Uub Relevance, Buu Relevance. Connective tissue leading into the next arc. Granolah arc isn't over yet but that I do worry has just devolved back into Goku and Vegeta have travelled to the place then just fought until the end of the arc


Your point about fight reactions is spot on I will say with Zeno in the Top being unbearable since we had two of them for twice the reactions. What it reminded me of most is actually One Piece anime when random grunts just react and say "Straw Hat" about 50 times watching Luffy doing something. (feel this was at its worst in Marineford and fishman island..... hm and Dressrosa.. but think it's more an anime only thing....... I'm on a tangent here though)

Battle Dialogue being lacking I would agree with in general - think theres a line where Goku just cuts Jiren off after saying that he wants to fight to be stronger and just project that Jiren does too. That being said some of the finest DB fight dialogue is seen in Vegeta vs Granolah in the moments before he turns Ultra Ego, with resting on laurels about being strongest is only a snapshot at that moment in time. And that he has just been fighting so often to protect things, that its great to just fight for the sake of fighting like he used to. etc.


My final point is that comparing Monaka to Goku letting Gohan fight is clearly the wrong copycat. At least to me I got Mr Satan from him. Literally down to the delayed reaction from 18 and Hit to being punched respectively.

[PurestEvil]

I'm Pissed of copypasta called "I'm Pissed of copycat called DragonBall Super"

[SupremeKai25]

Okay so I acknowledge your complaint, but I have some questions for you:

Its not about me predicting its about Super copying DBZ. When I watched I hoped and expected the outcome to be different, fresh, new, shocking. I was wrong they only copied DBZ again. I can't predict the same outcome as DBZ when I expected someihng new. So here is how I will answer as follows:

"Only copied DBZ" when Future Trunks got a happy ending in DBZ? Or when DBZ didn't have any tournament at the centre of the plot at all? Even the Cell Games was just a farce Cell create to lure fighters. Meanwhile in DBS the tournaments are actually the centre of the story, so much so that people thought the Grand Priest was the real villain of the ToP and something would interrupt the tournament, because that was the norm in DBZ. The tournament would start, and then get interrupted. The "tournament" got interruped by Cell blowing up the ring, the Buu saga tournament got interrupted by Babidi and his forces stealing energy from the fighters there. This never happens in Super despite the precedent set up by DBZ and despite popular fan theories at the time.

Majin Buu did it in DBZ, Frieza killed Vegeta in DBZ, he also did a rage quit on Namek and blew it up in DBZ. Whis power was irrelevant.

You completely ignored context.

Frieza in Super destroyed the Earth as a final last secret move shortly before Vegeta was about to kill him. So it's different from Buu blowing up the Earth and Frieza killing Vegeta on Namek, because the villains there weren't the underdog.

It is also different from Cell trying to blow up the Earth because Frieza actually succeeded and forced a divine intervention to restore everything. Which was never done in DBZ.

People got mad that Vegeta didn't kill Frieza and Toriyama subverted their expectations.

He did it against Cell also in DBZ, and someone who we did not expect Gohan won.

(Aside from the fact that it was predictable Gohan would play a major role since Goku never shut up about how great and talented and how much potential he had, so it's obvious he would do something important eventually) Show me when in DBZ a meme character like Monaka actually saved the day in a 1v1 fight.

Androids 17 & 18 already did it in future timeline in DBZ

Did you just compare what 17 and 18 did to what Zamasu did?

My goodness, 17 and 18 just blew up some cities, Zamasu literally destroyed everything and merged with the entire Multiverse. 17 and 18 didn't kill everyone while Zamasu killed literally everyone except the main cast (for obvious reasons). 17 and 18 got taken out by Trunks while Zamasu defeated Trunks and had to be taken out by Toriyama himself. How are they comparable in any way

Zeno ending was lazy way to get the story over.

It was set-up and foreshadowed from the start so nothing about it was lazy, and it's something that DBZ never did.

Body snatching was a DBZ thing, Ginyu did it to Goku already.

Okay then following this logic Majin Buu is not an original villain because Cell already centred his entire strategy around absorbing people to evolve.

Bonus answer: Irrelevant to the story, we already knew Universe 7 was going to win so U6 dropping out from start, midway or end is irrelevant.

This makes me think that you watched Super after it ended, because this absolutely was not the case back when it was airing. I'd argue that most people actually thought there would be a plot twist, like the GP turning out to be evil, or U11 winning and Jiren wishing everyone back, and a lot of people were definitely caught off-guard when Hit was eliminated so early in the tournament. I also didn't see anyone expect the fodder robot universe to outlive U6, since Hit was a previous antagonist and Broly 2.0 was also in that team. It absolutely isn't irrelevant and a lot of theories about the ToP ended up being proven wrong.

I can also add a lot of people thinking that Frieza would betray U7 to get the win for himself, which also didn't happen and Frieza genuinely cooperated with U7.

Cell turned into a blob in DBZ and if they tried to kill him Earth will be also gone.

He didn't merge with the Earth to the point that he was draining of ki anyone touching the earth's surface.

Actually I haven't noticed this at all, at least in the anime and movies. There are some breaks in the fight where the villain maybe spends some time to explain their origins and plans (like Black taking his time mid-fight to explain his origins, which is identical to what Cell did in DBZ), but I can't think of any fight where a lot of time is spent explaining some "technical battle things" like a technique or strategy.

DB Super during fight scene
Fighter 1: I went for a right hand punch in your face when I saw you turning to the right
(explaining a process of someone being punched in the face)
Fighter 2: I knew you were going to try to punch me with your right hand so I turned left instead
(explaining a process of someone dodging a punch)
Spectator: repeating what Fighter 1 and Fighter 2 already said to everyone else

Maybe they should have explained some more then since the fandoms still doesn't understand basic concepts like holding back or conserving energy, to the point that people complained that Krillin was "SSB level".

[Hellspawn28]

The Goku Black saga was mostly original content. The only thing that it had in common with the Cell saga is Trunks traveling back in time and that's it. We get to see a evil Kaio character, a evil version of Goku, and the return of Future Trunks. Those are stuff that you had fans wanting for years. Also, Goku and Vegeta get to fight in the future which is something we never saw in DBZ.

[MasenkoHA]

s:

Zamasu - Just same old Trunks time travel all over again from DBZ with horrible ending

In the Cell saga Trunks goes back in time to help prevent another timeline from becoming like his future. In the Zamasu saga he goes back to recruit those warriors he helped to help him in his timeline.

Its obvious Toei went back to the Future Trunks character because of his popularity but its an entirely different story than the Artificial Human storyline in Z.

Frieza revival - WHY ? He got defeated and killed it was an epic story and ending with a twist with Trunks actually killing him, why bring him back? The whole point of defeating him in DBZ is pointless now.

The most famous archenemy comes back from the dead is a pretty popular storyline for a reason. There’s definite criticisms in the execution to be made but its own premise wasn’t horrible.

Caulifla and Kale - Just add boobs to OG Broly and then give them 2 super saiyan levels in one day with no build up to it.

Except I actually gave a shit about Caulifa and Kale. Far more interesting than a majority of the ToP participants tbh. Their easy peasy access to Super Saiyan 1 and 2 was no worse than Goten and Trunka accessing Super Saiyan so easily in the Boo saga.

Tournament of Power fighters - You have power rangers, transformers, sailor moon, Hitman, copy of Frieza, Ginyu Force, ect... Apparently Krillin can fight Gods now, but in DBZ he was more of a support senzu been guy.

In the Baba Tournament arc you had Universal movie monsters. Frieza’s third transformation was ripped from Alien. The Ginyu Force was a Super Sentai parody. Future Trunks is clearly inspired by Kyle Reese.

Toriyama homages and parodies other works of fiction all the time and always has. What a wild concept!!!!

Vegeta - Remember how Vegetas Final Flash and his sacrifice against Buu was one time epic moment in DBZ ? Well now he is giving it away like Oprah to everyone.

What does that even mean? These are just words being strung together

Gohan - Same old Gohan From Cell saga returning to awakened SS2 (no point of mystic anymore) fighting Androids again same old thing that they did in DBZ.

There is no winning with Gohan.