"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[PurestEvil]

...fuck, I can't stop laughing at that new Majin Vegeta drawing. Toyo totally had to go there, didn't he?

What picture?

Spoiler:

[Cipher]

Reposting here for potential discussion after accidentally dropping it in the Chapter 82 thread:

After a trip back through the (excellently paced) Future Trunks arc the other day, I think there might be some merit, unfortunately, to the claim that the TV-concurrent forty-page chapters of Super are handled like three chapters of original DB, and the later ones like a stretched-out single one.

There is so much happening in each of the 13 chapters of the Trunks arc, without it ever feeling rushed. It’s kind of a shame it was trailing the anime version the whole time, because I think each month really would have had people buzzing if it had been the first way they experienced the story.

That arc is also just paced/structured really well on a macro level.

[Lukmendes]

Reposting here for potential discussion after accidentally dropping it in the Chapter 82 thread:

After a trip back through the (excellently paced) Future Trunks arc the other day, I think there might be some merit, unfortunately, to the claim that the TV-concurrent forty-page chapters of Super are handled like three chapters of original DB, and the later ones like a stretched-out single one.

There is so much happening in each of the 13 chapters of the Trunks arc, without it ever feeling rushed. It’s kind of a shame it was trailing the anime version the whole time, because I think each month really would have had people buzzing if it had been the first way they experienced the story.

That arc is also just paced/structured really well on a macro level.

Yeah, the pacing for it was generally fine (Though at times it felt like it was too fast, like how everyone speedruns finding out that Black is Zamasu), the problem was the way the arc handled itself with other stuff, Black in particular is pretty boring in the manga, though, funnily enough, I think Future Zamasu was more interesting in the manga, in the anime he's way too strong and effectively makes Black redundant since Black doesn't look that much stronger than Future Zamasu (Specially in episodes after 57 where he doesn't need immortality at all to keep up Trunks or Goku), which can make you wonder why the hell Zamasu would bother with stealing Goku's body.

Hindsight really is 20/20, because I remember being annoyed with the pacing in Moro's arc, but now the Granolah arc is much, much worse, even on a binge read it feels too damn slow lol.

[Cipher]

Yeah, the pacing for it was generally fine (Though at times it felt like it was too fast, like how everyone speedruns finding out that Black is Zamasu)

I used to hold this opinion, but I don’t feel I agree at this point. The manga gives the reader four to five chapters—about a third of its thirteen-chapter length—to speculate on Goku Black’s identity (four to five months real time we all would have been wondering had the anime not proceeded it), and the actual delivery of the reveal is both equal shades comedic and intriguing, as with most of the arc’s setup, and well-placed/timed. The only thing it‘s missing is the anime’s red herrings, and they really aren’t central or relevant to the arc. If you put the anime comparison out of mind, it doesn’t feel like it’s unnaturally paced or missing anything at all.

I think it’s probably the best-paced manga Super arc. I’m going back through the Tournament of Power now too—which I overall like more, all said and done—but it has a rockier first six chapters, with its real premise taking a while to fall into place. Future Trunks is constantly both efficient and fun, with new developments coming exactly when they feel wanted.

Re: Black: He isn’t the anime’s mustache-twirler, but I think he’s pretty present in the manga. There’s a kind of sad petulance to him that comes through, even without that many scenes to him.

On that note: Granolah takes six chapters to get to its first main action and we all noted how it felt like it had a long front porch for its setup, but the Tournament of Power’s opening act lasts just as long. It’s a bit smarter with its structure, since the buildup is really two acts between the exhibition matches and recruitment, and the tournament itself is immediately more frantic as a payoff (and has three acts of consistently raising stakes in and of itself once it starts), but I do wonder how the fandom reaction to it would have been with the manga as the first way of experiencing the arc.

[SupremeKai25]

Dragon Ball Super is like Boruto.

The Manga speedruns through events while the Anime takes its time.

[Lukmendes]

I used to hold this opinion, but I don’t feel I agree at this point. The manga gives the reader four to five chapters—about a third of its thirteen-chapter length—to speculate on Goku Black’s identity (four to five months real time we all would have been wondering had the anime not proceeded it), and the actual delivery of the reveal is both equal shades comedic and intriguing, as with most of the arc’s setup, and well-placed/timed. The only thing it‘s missing is the anime’s red herrings, and they really aren’t central or relevant to the arc. If you put the anime comparison out of mind, it doesn’t feel like it’s unnaturally paced or missing anything at all.

I still feel like it's too fast, Zamasu suddenly takes interest in some guy he just heard of, he threatens Zuno to find out more about Goku and the super dragon balls, everyone correctly deduces he must be Black after Kibito tells them of what Zamasu did, all of this before they even meet the guy or Future Zamasu shows up.

It almost makes the mystery itself be redundant, Zamasu is introduced in chapter 16, and in chapter 18 they deduce he's Black, but it's understandable for that to be the case, since by the time Black's arc begins, the anime already revealed who it is, but it still feels too fast.

Re: Black: He isn’t the anime’s mustache-twirler, but I think he’s pretty present in the manga. There’s a kind of sad petulance to him that comes through, even without that many scenes to him.

I feel he's under developed in it, has more of a generic DB villain personality and not much else.

On that note: Granolah takes six chapters to get to its first main action and we all noted how it felt like it had a long front porch for its setup, but the Tournament of Power’s opening act lasts just as long. It’s a bit smarter with its structure, since the buildup is really two acts between the exhibition matches and recruitment, and the tournament itself is immediately more frantic as a payoff (and has three acts of consistently raising stakes in and of itself once it starts), but I do wonder how the fandom reaction to it would have been with the manga as the first way of experiencing the arc.

I think the usual points of complaint would be the same, but I think Kale ringing out almost everyone could maybe not be as hated, since the anime did give other universes a chance to shine, even if it overall wasn't much, Kale doing that removed any chance of an universe that wasn't 6, 7, or 11 to do anything, which would annoy people who liked the anime version of other characters.

I know someone in particular who detested how she one shotted Anilaza, because he was far more impressive in the anime, and that guy talked like the anime is supposed to be the main version and the manga is just a derivative of it, not knowing or not caring that both anime and manga are derivatives of Toriyama's notes, but the anime is the most known/liked one.

[Cipher]

I still feel like it's too fast, Zamasu suddenly takes interest in some guy he just heard of, he threatens Zuno to find out more about Goku and the super dragon balls, everyone correctly deduces he must be Black after Kibito tells them of what Zamasu did, all of this before they even meet the guy or Future Zamasu shows up.

It almost makes the mystery itself be redundant,

The purpose of the mystery in the manga is that the reader has four-five chapters to wonder what’s going on—in line with similar points of light mystery in the original run during the Cell or Boo arcs. The wondering here is a bit more sustained though. The “evil Goku” reveal is the opening hook, and it gives you a little time to keep wondering about it, even though the mystery isn’t the focus of the arc. On that note, the point to start with for how long a blind reader is left to speculate isn’t Zamasu’s first appearance, but Black’s.

You also make it sound like the revealed bullet points happen immediately. There’s a lot of stuff happening around them—literally a volume’s worth of content before everything is made clear.

By the time Kibito shows up with the final bits of news, it’s just the story confirming what it’s already slowly shown and implied up to that point. Even just timing it from Zamasu’s debut to the reveal, it’s well over 80 pages. It doesn’t feel too fast to me—just like it’s not wasting time.

I feel he's under developed in it, has more of a generic DB villain personality and not much else.

I feel like I’m left with a pretty clear impression of how he’s react in different situations despite his comparatively short page time. He’s full of himself when he has the upper hand, but quicker to doubts and strategic pragmatism than most DB villains. See his not trusting the situation when Trunks disappears in the Time Machine, his realizing that the past Kaioshins being onto their plan puts them in danger and requires a quick mopping up of Earth, and all his little pouty frowns throughout the arc when it seems like something’s gone wrong—against Vegeta in the rematch, when moralized to by Gowasu, etc. Even his tired frown when his parted Zamasu turns on him.

There’s quite a bit of efficient characterization for him packed into his small handful of appearances.

[Mr Baggins]

Goku Black's character is certainly an interesting topic. For me, it's probably the only area in all of Super where I'm partial to the TV anime's take over the manga's.

In the anime, he's a full-on mustache twirling supervillain. That's not just because of Nozawa's performance, but also his personality and dialogue: Goku's body is implied to have a subtle effect on his behavior and desire to fight for the sake of it, making him the "evil Goku" that the arc originally hyped him up to be. To be clear, none of this has any depth or really adds anything to the story or its underlying subtext. It's all just in good fun. Black is a fun character.

In the manga, he's not much more than an extension of Zamasu; this technically "works" because zoning in on Zamasu plays more to the narrative and its themes than anime Black, but since I don't find Zamasu to be all that compelling on his own, I likewise don't feel particularly excited when Black shows up on re-read. He's more coherent while also less interesting. I do appreciate his origins making more sense than the anime and its absurd time loop, though.

It's ultimately a matter of preference as there are pros and cons to both versions of him, and I say this as someone who vehemently dislikes the anime's Future Trunks arc overall. I only find it worth revisiting for Black's scenes in isolation because I think everything else is so poorly executed compared to the manga.

[Lukmendes]

The purpose of the mystery in the manga is that the reader has four-five chapters to wonder what’s going on—in line with similar points of light mystery in the original run during the Cell or Boo arcs. The wondering here is a bit more sustained though. The “evil Goku” reveal is the opening hook, and it gives you a little time to keep wondering about it, even though the mystery isn’t the focus of the arc. On that note, the point to start with for how long a blind reader is left to speculate isn’t Zamasu’s first appearance, but Black’s.

You also make it sound like the revealed bullet points happen immediately. There’s a lot of stuff happening around them—literally a volume’s worth of content before everything is made clear.

By the time Kibito shows up with the final bits of news, it’s just the story confirming what it’s already slowly shown and implied up to that point. Even just timing it from Zamasu’s debut to the reveal, it’s well over 80 pages. It doesn’t feel too fast to me—just like it’s not wasting time.

It still feels rushed since Zamasu has no real reason to have gotten such an obsession with Goku when they never met, (And it becomes more ridiculous later on with the reveal that at least a mortal like Toppo can become a god of destruction), and everyone finds out he's Black before Goku even actually meets the guy, so the reaction is basically "This guy I never met stole my body?", and then they meet Black, say they know everything and Black's reaction is basically "Huh?".

The mystery itself is almost redundant to have happened because everything's revealed too fast, and the characters themselves don't care to the point that Goku's reaction to learning that Black killed his family once is "Oh, I guess that happened".

It'd probably be better if they didn't even bother as much with the mystery angle and revealed earlier that Zamasu is Black, 'cause the way the manga did it felt like a waste of time.

I feel like I’m left with a pretty clear impression of how he’s react in different situations despite his comparatively short page time. He’s full of himself when he has the upper hand, but quicker to doubts and strategic pragmatism than most DB villains. See his not trusting the situation when Trunks disappears in the Time Machine, his realizing that the past Kaioshins being onto their plan puts them in danger and requires a quick mopping up of Earth, and all his little pouty frowns throughout the arc when it seems like something’s gone wrong—against Vegeta in the rematch, when moralized to by Gowasu, etc. Even his tired frown when his parted Zamasu turns on him.

There’s quite a bit of efficient characterization for him packed into his small handful of appearances.

In general he's still just a bully who's gonna laugh and taunt when he's winning, and throw a tantrum when he's losing, which, most DB villains have done, but he lacks other things that at least made the previous villains have something compared to the others, Black feels more like a DB movie villain in blandness in his personality, though, his motivation on why he's doing what he's doing is his own at least.

In the manga, he's not much more than an extension of Zamasu; this technically "works" because zoning in on Zamasu plays more to the narrative and its themes than anime Black, but since I don't find Zamasu to be all that compelling on his own, I likewise don't feel particularly excited when Black shows up on re-read. He's more coherent while also less interesting. I do appreciate his origins making more sense than the anime and its absurd time loop, though.

Yeah, Future Zamasu feels more like a version of the Zamasu we saw in the present than Black himself, which's, really ironic.

Hell, the manga version of Black arc is a lot like Toyotaro's own AF before they fuse, with an evil Kaioshin helping out the explicitly stronger guy, and the guy having less of a personality and being more of a brute, though while I think manga Black is bland, he's not as bad as Xicor, at the very least.

Overall I slightly prefer the anime version of the Black arc, the slower pacing helped out in some scenes (Though a lot others were painful, 'cause Super's anime's pacing is ass), in particular, having Goku and Vegeta return to the present and finish the investigation on Zamasu, with Goku there, made it look like Goku and Zamasu would fight, and then Beerus prevents that from happening and kills Zamasu.

It's ultimately a matter of preference as there are pros and cons to both versions of him, and I say this as someone who vehemently dislikes the anime's Future Trunks arc overall. I only find it worth revisiting for Black's scenes in isolation because I think everything else is so poorly executed compared to the manga.

I find both versions to have started cool but really became disappointing in different ways, with anime Black being obnoxiously invincible to the point he might as well have pulled that scythe and the clones out of his ass, and the manga version just, not being interesting, at all, though for me, the manga has the better Future Zamasu, his anime version makes no sense lol.

Some of the issues in the arc happened because of incompetence from either Toei or Toyotaro, but other stuff like the ending having to rely on what's basically a deadly win button... Fuck that, I don't know what the hell Toriyama was thinking.

[Cipher]

everyone finds out he's Black before Goku even actually meets the guy, so the reaction is basically "This guy I never met stole my body?", and then they meet Black, say they know everything and Black's reaction is basically "Huh?".

The mystery itself is almost redundant to have happened because everything's revealed too fast, and the characters themselves don't care to the point that Goku's reaction to learning that Black killed his family once is "Oh, I guess that happened".

This is true, but it all happens with DB’s usual irreverence and expediency. It feels right in line with the original series.

There are some ways the arc feels like a comedy of errors, but it also helps the whole thing align.

[SupremeKai25]

Black and Zamasu in the Anime are unironically the best villains ever. They have literally all the qualities a villain should have, I can't really think of anything they're missing. Easy 10/10.

[fleahop]

Black and Zamasu in the Anime are unironically the best villains ever. They have literally all the qualities a villain should have, I can't really think of anything they're missing. Easy 10/10.

Well that's like, your opinion man.

Piccolo Daimao and Frieza are my top two. Elec may also get up there depending on how this story goes. He's very promising to be villainous in ways I haven't seen in DB before.

Zamas and Black in anime are a personal low point for me when it comes to major arcs.

[capsulecorp]

Zamas and Black in anime are a personal low point for me when it comes to major arcs.

They are easily one of the low points of the series as a whole, in my opinion. It's one of the least "Dragon Ball feeling" bits of Dragon Ball and honestly feel like bad fanfic at times.

[SupremeKai25]

Black and Zamasu in the Anime are unironically the best villains ever. They have literally all the qualities a villain should have, I can't really think of anything they're missing. Easy 10/10.

Well that's like, your opinion man.

Piccolo Daimao and Frieza are my top two. Elec may also get up there depending on how this story goes. He's very promising to be villainous in ways I haven't seen in DB before.

Zamas and Black in anime are a personal low point for me when it comes to major arcs.

Yes, Yes, of course I meant "in my opinion", thanks for the reply.

[JulieYBM]

Black and Zamasu in the Anime are unironically the best villains ever. They have literally all the qualities a villain should have, I can't really think of anything they're missing. Easy 10/10.

Well that's like, your opinion man.

Piccolo Daimao and Frieza are my top two. Elec may also get up there depending on how this story goes. He's very promising to be villainous in ways I haven't seen in DB before.

Zamas and Black in anime are a personal low point for me when it comes to major arcs.

Yes, Yes, of course I meant "in my opinion", thanks for the reply.

Don't worry, they're gay, that literally and factually actually makes them the best anime villains in DB.

[SupremeKai25]

Well that's like, your opinion man.

Piccolo Daimao and Frieza are my top two. Elec may also get up there depending on how this story goes. He's very promising to be villainous in ways I haven't seen in DB before.

Zamas and Black in anime are a personal low point for me when it comes to major arcs.

Yes, Yes, of course I meant "in my opinion", thanks for the reply.

Don't worry, they're gay, that literally and factually actually makes them the best anime villains in DB.

All I can say is that I really liked the scenes where they just chill in their cabin and drink tea, I found those kind of scenes funny and unique for a Dragon Ball villain ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[JulieYBM]

Yes, Yes, of course I meant "in my opinion", thanks for the reply.

Don't worry, they're gay, that literally and factually actually makes them the best anime villains in DB.

All I can say is that I really liked the scenes where they just chill in their cabin and drink tea, I found those kind of scenes funny and unique for a Dragon Ball villain ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Why are they, as Obviously Straight Men, living in a log cabin together, alone, far removed from society *and* drinking tea together? Seems gay.

[Mr Baggins]

They are easily one of the low points of the series as a whole, in my opinion. It's one of the least "Dragon Ball feeling" bits of Dragon Ball and honestly feel like bad fanfic at times.

I wouldn't go that far. In the manga, at least, it's clear that Zamasu is just this bratty, homicidal maniac with delusions of grandeur who's never once taken seriously. That's very much in keeping with Dragon Ball's gods, who are only obstensibly gods while in truth being deeply incompetent at their duties.

And that's really the point of the arc, at least as Toriyama envisioned it: Zamasu isn't supposed to be some righteous or godlike character.

With that said, I think he's definitely one of the weaker mainline DB antagonists. There's really not much to him in terms of memorable traits or endearing quirks.

[capsulecorp]

I wouldn't go that far. In the manga, at least, it's clear that Zamasu is just this bratty, homicidal maniac with delusions of grandeur who's never once taken seriously. That's very much in keeping with Dragon Ball's gods, who are only obstensibly gods while in truth being deeply incompetent at their duties.

And that's really the point of the arc, at least as Toriyama envisioned it: Zamasu isn't supposed to be some righteous or godlike character.

With that said, I think he's definitely one of the weaker DB antagonists. There's really not much to him in terms of memorable traits or endearing quirks.

I think that last bit is really important though: the reason he's not memorable or endearing is because he feels like he's borrowed from any one of a hundred lazier, tropey-er manga. He doesn't feel at home next to iconic, one-of-a-kind characters like Piccolo or Freeza or Buu because he just another overly familiar homicidal maniac with delusions of grandeur.

[JulieYBM]

Zamas and Black in anime are a personal low point for me when it comes to major arcs.

They are easily one of the low points of the series as a whole, in my opinion. It's one of the least "Dragon Ball feeling" bits of Dragon Ball and honestly feel like bad fanfic at times.

Art made by different people in different periods of history will, in fact, feel different from one another. It's only natural.