Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kenneth La Torre]

2 years of a break from this site, damn didn’t know it be that long. Anyways, can’t believe we live in a time where the scaling is so messy that we have to see the characters duke it out to see who is actually superior. I like debates don’t get me wrong, but many things keep getting retcon or just ignored.

[picc]

Noted. I think what also helps your rationale is that Kaioshin's shock at Base Vegeta's strength could have been attributed to how powerful the Saiyans were in their Base forms, knowing full well that they can amplify it much further than Super Saiyan. So, it doesn't necessarily mean that Kaioshin cannot be leagues beyond the Base Saiyans. It could simply mean that his shock was because he never expected the Base Saiyans to be so powerful which in turn, would lead to the Super Saiyans to be much stronger than himself which is something he never expected.

Right. Its all part of the big picture of Shin, the Saiyans, and the readers together realizing how insignificant he is compared to what we (and he) believed at first. His shock at base vegeta's power, the juxtaposition between his reaction to babidi's fighters and the saiyans' reactions to them, Vegeta mocking his strength, etc. AT did a great job of selling us a magic bean at the tournament, and then using that magic bean to illustrate how far everyone else has come.

No part of his involvement in the Buu saga requires him to be stronger than Trunks when we first saw him. That doesn't mean he isn't stronger than Piccolo. But we're told repeatedly that he's weaker than we think rather than stronger than we think. That makes me lean toward the floor side of his power range. And him fainting from Rumshhi's roar while TOP base Goku stays upright doesn't make me less confident in that assessment.

[Goku9001]

Noted. I think what also helps your rationale is that Kaioshin's shock at Base Vegeta's strength could have been attributed to how powerful the Saiyans were in their Base forms, knowing full well that they can amplify it much further than Super Saiyan. So, it doesn't necessarily mean that Kaioshin cannot be leagues beyond the Base Saiyans. It could simply mean that his shock was because he never expected the Base Saiyans to be so powerful which in turn, would lead to the Super Saiyans to be much stronger than himself which is something he never expected.

Right. Its all part of the big picture of Shin, the Saiyans, and the readers together realizing how insignificant he is compared to what we (and he) believed at first. His shock at base vegeta's power, the juxtaposition between his reaction to babidi's fighters and the saiyans' reactions to them, Vegeta mocking his strength, etc. AT did a great job of selling us a magic bean at the tournament, and then using that magic bean to illustrate how far everyone else has come.

No part of his involvement in the Buu saga requires him to be stronger than Trunks when we first saw him. That doesn't mean he isn't stronger than Piccolo. But we're told repeatedly that he's weaker than we think rather than stronger than we think. That makes me lean toward the floor side of his power range. And him fainting from Rumshhi's roar while TOP base Goku stays upright doesn't make me less confident in that assessment.

What do you make of SSJB Vegeta's performance against SSJ Goku Black and his performance against SSJR Goku Black after training in the Rosat? That would suggest that the Base Saiyans had grown incredibly powerful overall.

[picc]

If Goku hadn't increased his power for a second time in response to Frost, aura and everything, I might be inclined to agree. A clear superior is obvious but the discrepancy wasn't so pronounced that Frost couldn't weather attacks and keep Goku on his toes somewhat. By the time Frost was challenged by Vegeta he had already tired himself out a good amount fighting Piccolo.

Good point. Without fighting Goku and Piccolo, Frost probably doesn't get crushed like that against Vegeta.

I guess it depends on who from Z you can see giving U6 saga SSJ Goku the fight Frost did. Where he can somewhat hang, but is still dominated, and pretty easily dispatched at the end. And how much you think Goku improved his SSJ from the Cell saga.

[picc]

Noted. I think what also helps your rationale is that Kaioshin's shock at Base Vegeta's strength could have been attributed to how powerful the Saiyans were in their Base forms, knowing full well that they can amplify it much further than Super Saiyan. So, it doesn't necessarily mean that Kaioshin cannot be leagues beyond the Base Saiyans. It could simply mean that his shock was because he never expected the Base Saiyans to be so powerful which in turn, would lead to the Super Saiyans to be much stronger than himself which is something he never expected.

Right. Its all part of the big picture of Shin, the Saiyans, and the readers together realizing how insignificant he is compared to what we (and he) believed at first. His shock at base vegeta's power, the juxtaposition between his reaction to babidi's fighters and the saiyans' reactions to them, Vegeta mocking his strength, etc. AT did a great job of selling us a magic bean at the tournament, and then using that magic bean to illustrate how far everyone else has come.

No part of his involvement in the Buu saga requires him to be stronger than Trunks when we first saw him. That doesn't mean he isn't stronger than Piccolo. But we're told repeatedly that he's weaker than we think rather than stronger than we think. That makes me lean toward the floor side of his power range. And him fainting from Rumshhi's roar while TOP base Goku stays upright doesn't make me less confident in that assessment.

What do you make of SSJB Vegeta's performance against SSJ Goku Black and his performance against SSJR Goku Black after training in the Rosat? That would suggest that the Base Saiyans had grown incredibly powerful overall.

I'll have to go back and check. I absolutely believe the base saiyans are way beyond Namek Freeza by the time of the TOP though. Angel training, GoD training, years in the ROSAT together. It wouldn't be strange at all for their base forms to be stronger than Shin by then.

His "thing" isn't battle strength, so he doesn't need to be a certain power level or stronger than anyone in particular to fulfill his role in the series.

[ZombieVito]

I'll have to go back and check. I absolutely believe the base saiyans are way beyond Namek Freeza by the time of the TOP though. Angel training, GoD training, years in the ROSAT together. It wouldn't be strange at all for their base forms to be stronger than Shin by then.

His "thing" isn't battle strength, so he doesn't need to be a certain power level or stronger than anyone in particular to fulfill his role in the series.

Base Goku is stronger than Shin by the Top in the manga.

[Hugo Boss]

Re: Kaioshin

From my perspective, speaking purely on battle power understanding terms, Kaioshin is a character that plays a mixed role of Dr. Gero and Future Trunks in the Android Arc. They have a slight idea of how strong everyone is, but they lack knowledge of intricate details of the main cast’s fighting experience, as they have casual concern on this department.

A pretty good example of this is how Dr. Gero used the data collected from Goku’s fight against Vegeta to prepare for their confrontation. The androids 19 and 20 were created for the purpose to beat that threshold. And even if they weren’t enough there were androids 17 and 18, and worst case scenario Cell.

It turned out that, despite his miscalculation, for not collecting data from the fight against Freeza and his soldiers, Dr. Gero lost his first line resources, but was still able to beat the main cast with his aces, at least before they used their last resort, the ROSAT. Remember how Trunks was the one to suggest that everyone fight together? It’s called assurance, he had no clue about how it would turn out. Same goes for Dr. Gero.

Now, to make a parallel with Kaioshin, he probably mentioned Freeza in his narrative, because that was as far as he could talk about the mortal powerscalling, Freeza was for a good while the strongest mortal after the legendary Super Saiyan. To add to that, Kaioshin probably had no intel about their fight against Cell and the other androids, specially about the ROSAT trips. That’s corroborated by his ignorance about Cell when Goku is talking about Dabra.

And furthermore Kaioshin assumes Babidi’s slaves are enhanced by magic and possibly more formidable than Freeza but likely not that far ahead. It doesn’t seem an absurd idea, since Kaioshin thought the Super Saiyans’ help was needed for the task and it would suffice if Dabra wasn’t included (he seemed hopeless in a scenario against Babidi and Dabra when he had 3 Super Saiyans in his team).

So, taking everything into account, Kaioshin is probably much stronger than Namek-to-initial-Android-arc-Super Saiyan, thus his confidence on being able to hold one off, but not quite as strong as a Super Saiyan after a ROSAT trip, specially when they start to test form upgrades. This is how strong he needs to be to make the power structure work, just like androids 19 and 20 did at their time (Kaioshin and Dabra). Boo is the one that breaks the main cast’s confidence, like 17 and 18 once did, going so far as to kill their master and force the use of a new last resort, Fusion. Pui Pui and Yakon come in a nebulous area, but I doubt they can beat Freeza, even if you ignore the post-Z-era stuff.

[Cipher]

Frost only comparable to Semi or Perfect Cell? I'm not so sure. It's true he couldn't inflict any damage against SSJ Goku but it's also clear from his expressions and actions that the Saiyan was taking the fight seriously throughout with an aura to boot. Given that this is Goku following a training regimen with Whis and collaboration with Vegeta in the ROSAT for three years, his Super Saiyan form was probably much higher in strength than the time he was seen mentally preparing himself to engage Kid Buu in a fight using just SSJ1 from the start of the BOG arc.

Koitsuke already covered this, but Goku’s sparring match with Trunks gives us Frost (and a fair bit else). When they fight evenly as Super Saiyan 2s, Goku’s point of comparison is still Cell arc Gohan. You could argue it’s just for Trunks’ reference, but it’s still the Cell Games/Boo arc SS2 signal, and there’s no reason to complicate it further. He needs SS3 to press an advantage again (which Trunks then powers up to match).

Goku’s pre-God forms simply haven’t gotten that much stronger from the Boo arc. I know fans like to simply assume they must have, given all the training in between, but those same fans would have assumed base Goku was stronger than Freeza until BoG set the record straight. The lower forms just don’t increase that much through standard training at times when the story doesn’t tell us they have. When they do, it’s explicit, as with Goku and Gohan’s use of Super Saiyan going into the Cell Games, or Goku and Vegeta via specialized training in the Moro arc. Otherwise the name of the game is improving transformations, or very specialized power-ups. Like it or not, it’s been how manga DB’s worked since the Cell arc.

If SS2 Goku by the Future Trunks arc is still about as strong as he was in the Boo arc (Trunks comment), then Super Saiyan Goku is about as strong in the U6 arc as he was in the Boo arc as well. Frost, a character too powerful for Piccolo but unable to defeat Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta (perhaps only a bit stronger than their Cell Games selves) fits perfectly into that Semi-Perfect/Perfect Cell slot. Give or take a little.

[Goku9001]

I don't put much stock into it. Goku makes a reference to Kid Gohan to signify to him that he had surpassed the strongest power that both Goku and Trunks were privy to during Trunks' visit in the main timeline. Frieza makes a similar comparison between Goku and Ginyu but it's apparent that Goku is much stronger than Ginyu let alone the few others Frieza had battled prior that had also surpassed Ginyu. Using Kid Gohan as a benchmark in this context does not mean that Kid Gohan was the strongest person Trunks had surpassed. It's the only one that is completely relevant to Trunks in the same way that Ginyu was during the Frieza Saga. Toyotaro also claims that "Trunks is so much better than Gohan was" indicating that there is a significant gap between the two and leaves it at that. Whatever gap that is is anyone's guess. Considering Goku was slightly stronger than Kid Gohan during the Cell Games yet can match up to someone who is much better than Kid Gohan would suggest he has improved quite a bit to some extent.

That's not factoring in the movie's and the anime's implications of Goku being the strongest during the Battle of Gods. The manga makes it clear that Goku was training intensively to handle much greater threats which would explain his confidence against Beerus. Looking at the Goku Black saga, Super Saiyan 3 Goku was much weaker than Base Goku Black and yet after training in the Rosat, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta is shown to be even stronger than SSJ Goku Black who powered up significantly in his base form. SSJ2 Vegeta (Post) > SSJ Goku Black > Base Goku Black (vs. Vegeta) > Base Goku Black (vs. Trunks) > SSJ3 Goku. That's a clear indication that their powers have grown substantially in equal forms.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

SS Vegeta's fight with SS Black in the manga really is the main thing that throws a wrench into everything. There's no obvious cues about this being an alternate SS form for Vegeta, nor anything to indicate Goku Black wasn't multiplying his power with SS like normal, nor an indication that Goku and Vegeta truly differ in power in the exact same forms.

Unless Toyotaro meant to draw Vegeta as SSB or meant to imply it was purely through battle skill and experience that Vegeta was winning that exchange, it seems to majorly imply that Goku and Vegeta have indeed gotten much stronger in the manga as well.

[Skar]

What opponents have they encountered with a comparable strength level to past plateaus of theirs who we've seen fight more than once? Frost is an example though we don't know if he could have improved himself similar to what Freeza managed.

Goku said for him to train like Freeza so I assumed Frost hasn't done much training before. He probably has done more training than Namek Freeza since he surpassed Piccolo but Goku he had a long way to go. I think that makes sense since the only stronger opponent in U6 is Hit and he doesn't have to worry about the Saiyans.

We know Beerus' planet is a great distance away from Earth. Whis stated that it would take 35 minutes to reach Earth from there with his warping ability. Somehow everyone powering up on Earth was able to emit a signature that could reach the planet for Goku to hone in on as he was trying to locate them. I suspect it would have be to at least similar to SSJ3 Goku from the Buu arc to create an effect like that.

There was only a rusty SSJ Gohan, Piccolo, and the humans below base Gohan so it's unlikely that could've been close to a SSJ2. He was able to sense the Nameks from King Kai's planet so maybe his ki sensing improved more by that point.

That's not factoring in the movie's and the anime's implications of Goku being the strongest during the Battle of Gods. The manga makes it clear that Goku was training intensively to handle much greater threats which would explain his confidence against Beerus. Looking at the Goku Black saga, Super Saiyan 3 Goku was much weaker than Base Goku Black and yet after training in the Rosat, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta is shown to be even stronger than SSJ Goku Black who powered up significantly in his base form. SSJ2 Vegeta (Post) > SSJ Goku Black > Base Goku Black (vs. Vegeta) > Base Goku Black (vs. Trunks) > SSJ3 Goku. That's a clear indication that their powers have grown substantially in equal forms.

Wasn't that pre-Rosat? I recall Vegeta only used the God/Blue combo in their second fight. That whole first fight was pretty confusing. SSJ2 Vegeta performs better against SSJ Goku Black while SSJ2 Trunks who was close to SSJ3 Goku couldn't defeat Base Black. Then we got SSJ Black beating Blue Vegeta. I'm not sure what Toyotaro was trying to indicate since SSJ2 Vegeta would need to maybe be hundreds of times stronger than SSJ3 Goku that had just fought Trunks a chapter before. The anime made it easier in this case since I think he went straight to Blue in their first fight implying that SSJ2 Vegeta wasn't much stronger than SSJ2 Trunks like Goku's level in the manga.

Some implications could be unclear but a direct comparison by name is usually intended by an author. I think it's important to remember the target audience. Toriyama and Toyotaro don't expect young kids to question direct statements and go back and forth to figure it out on their own like older fans online. Goku mentioned when SSJ2 Trunks surpassed Cell Games Gohan which was also the last comment about SSJ2 Goku since the Buu saga. I think Frost had the same intention. Young fans could assume he was weaker than SSJ Vegeta but stronger than Piccolo which fits with a Cell saga opponent.

[Koitsukai]

I always read Vegeta's performance vs SS Black as his version of Trunks' SS2, only much stronger. He showcased that in BoG. With that power he was way ahead of the whole gang, including SS3 Goku. He also fought, in that form, Broly who was 10x away from SSG.


Headcanon alert: that's his SS3. He is not able, for whatever reason to grow his hair, maybe for the best because he isn't tied down to the drawbacks of the form(nor to the expected multiplier of SS2 or 3).
IIRC, AT once said all forms are part of the same SS tree, and that it could be possible to just use SS at full power
without needing the subsequent forms. So it would seem he is enhancing/extending/strengthening the SS2 branch instead of jumping to the more fragile SS3 branch.
Without being stronger in his base form, getting the edge only from his particular SS2 form.
Of course, like I said, Headcanon, none of this is even hinted at, only that they are supposed to be equals in base, Goku and Geets. With his SS2 being ahead of pretty much everybody.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Re: Kaioshin

From my perspective, speaking purely on battle power understanding terms, Kaioshin is a character that plays a mixed role of Dr. Gero and Future Trunks in the Android Arc. They have a slight idea of how strong everyone is, but they lack knowledge of intricate details of the main cast’s fighting experience, as they have casual concern on this department.

A pretty good example of this is how Dr. Gero used the data collected from Goku’s fight against Vegeta to prepare for their confrontation. The androids 19 and 20 were created for the purpose to beat that threshold. And even if they weren’t enough there were androids 17 and 18, and worst case scenario Cell.

It turned out that, despite his miscalculation, for not collecting data from the fight against Freeza and his soldiers, Dr. Gero lost his first line resources, but was still able to beat the main cast with his aces, at least before they used their last resort, the ROSAT. Remember how Trunks was the one to suggest that everyone fight together? It’s called assurance, he had no clue about how it would turn out. Same goes for Dr. Gero.

Now, to make a parallel with Kaioshin, he probably mentioned Freeza in his narrative, because that was as far as he could talk about the mortal powerscalling, Freeza was for a good while the strongest mortal after the legendary Super Saiyan. To add to that, Kaioshin probably had no intel about their fight against Cell and the other androids, specially about the ROSAT trips. That’s corroborated by his ignorance about Cell when Goku is talking about Dabra.

And furthermore Kaioshin assumes Babidi’s slaves are enhanced by magic and possibly more formidable than Freeza but likely not that far ahead. It doesn’t seem an absurd idea, since Kaioshin thought the Super Saiyans’ help was needed for the task and it would suffice if Dabra wasn’t included (he seemed hopeless in a scenario against Babidi and Dabra when he had 3 Super Saiyans in his team).

So, taking everything into account, Kaioshin is probably much stronger than Namek-to-initial-Android-arc-Super Saiyan, thus his confidence on being able to hold one off, but not quite as strong as a Super Saiyan after a ROSAT trip, specially when they start to test form upgrades. This is how strong he needs to be to make the power structure work, just like androids 19 and 20 did at their time (Kaioshin and Dabra). Boo is the one that breaks the main cast’s confidence, like 17 and 18 once did, going so far as to kill their master and force the use of a new last resort, Fusion. Pui Pui and Yakon come in a nebulous area, but I doubt they can beat Freeza, even if you ignore the post-Z-era stuff.

And what do you make of Babidi? He’s awfully informed of how strong the Saiyans are, even more than Kaioshin was since the last time he checked Earth was 300 years ago. But he’s done his homework on Kaioshin himself, hasn’t he? And considers Kaioshin pretty much a non factor in the fights, telling Pui Pui and Yakon to not even bother with him and just focus on the Saiyans.

I always read Vegeta's performance vs SS Black as his version of Trunks' SS2, only much stronger. He showcased that in BoG. With that power he was way ahead of the whole gang, including SS3 Goku. He also fought, in that form, Broly who was 10x away from SSG.


Headcanon alert: that's his SS3. He is not able, for whatever reason to grow his hair, maybe for the best because he isn't tied down to the drawbacks of the form(nor to the expected multiplier of SS2 or 3).
IIRC, AT once said all forms are part of the same SS tree, and that it could be possible to just use SS at full power
without needing the subsequent forms. So it would seem he is enhancing/extending/strengthening the SS2 branch instead of jumping to the more fragile SS3 branch.
Without being stronger in his base form, getting the edge only from his particular SS2 form.
Of course, like I said, Headcanon, none of this is even hinted at, only that they are supposed to be equals in base, Goku and Geets. With his SS2 being ahead of pretty much everybody.

I agree. I also think Black had some tiny SSJ boosts. This saga is no stranger to inconsistent SSJ multipliers anyway.

If we follow all the multiplier strictly though, then SSJ Vegeta after the Rosat is much stronger than his SSJB Pre Rosat, since he’s stronger than Black in equal forms.

Not sure about Broly though. He looked like a plain SSJ1 to me there. I thought Broly kept getting stronger as SSJG Vegeta pummeled him.

[Hugo Boss]

And what do you make of Babidi? He’s awfully informed of how strong the Saiyans are, even more than Kaioshin was since the last time he checked Earth was 300 years ago. But he’s done his homework on Kaioshin himself, hasn’t he? And considers Kaioshin pretty much a non factor in the fights, telling Pui Pui and Yakon to not even bother with him and just focus on the Saiyans.

Now that you mentioned it, I did a little reread and curiously Babidi, Dabra, Kaioshin and Kibito had practically the same opinion about the status quo of everyone involved in the fight. Kaioshin even thought he would need extra help to beat Babidi and his resources, connecting with Babidi’s belief that Kaioshin and Kibito were non-factors. It turned out exactly the opposite, Pui Pui and Yakon weren’t as formidable as they initially thought, the rumors were misleading. The Saiyans were the only ones that made an accurate analysis of the situation.

Likely even Kaioshin himself would beat them, as Kibito is weaker than him and implied to be a difficult challenge for the Saiyans (particularly Gohan) as long as they don’t transform, which more or less fits with Yakon’s position. Remember, in the Super manga, Kibito could contend with Zamasu (the strongest shinjin of his time) in a sparring match and managed to catch him off guard once, to which Zamasu praised Kibito’s ability.

[ZombieVito]

SS Vegeta's fight with SS Black in the manga really is the main thing that throws a wrench into everything. There's no obvious cues about this being an alternate SS form for Vegeta, nor anything to indicate Goku Black wasn't multiplying his power with SS like normal, nor an indication that Goku and Vegeta truly differ in power in the exact same forms.

Unless Toyotaro meant to draw Vegeta as SSB or meant to imply it was purely through battle skill and experience that Vegeta was winning that exchange, it seems to majorly imply that Goku and Vegeta have indeed gotten much stronger in the manga as well.

It's a fuck up. No other way around that.

Base Black was already stronger than Super Saiyan 3. There's absolutely no way SS2 vegeta beats him, especially after Black turns Super Saiyan.

[Miracles]

Remember, In Battle of gods, Vegeta's SSJ2 surpassed Goku's SSJ3. Trunks SSJ2 was" just as strong" as Kakkarott's SSJ3. Yet Trunks stated even a power equal to SSJ3 was "nothing" to Black.

So blonde Vegeta monstering Black's SSJ makes sense.

[Xeno Goku Black]

The manga showed Beerus seemingly having defeated Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan.

It's surely safe to assume the angry Super Saiyan Vegeta that went up against Beerus surpassed them as well.

[Hugo Boss]

This discussion about SS2 Vegeta vs. SS Goku Black in the manga just happened literally a month ago.

Anyway, it just requires to assume Vegeta retains his amped SS2 form from BoG, which surpass Goku’s SS3. Trunks just demonstrated how he underwent a similar process and caught up to Goku’s SS3. And also remember Goku Black’s SS form was still a work-in-progress, according to Trunks and the multiple power-ups it received.

[SupremeKai25]

2 years of a break from this site, damn didn’t know it be that long. Anyways, can’t believe we live in a time where the scaling is so messy that we have to see the characters duke it out to see who is actually superior. I like debates don’t get me wrong, but many things keep getting retcon or just ignored.

Indeed, I agree with your observation.

[Lionel]

Goku9001 explained it well. Gohan from the Cell Games was the last mutual reference point that Goku and Future Trunks have. I assume Goku would want for Trunks to understand who it is that he's being compared to.

There was only a rusty SSJ Gohan, Piccolo, and the humans below base Gohan so it's unlikely that could've been close to a SSJ2. He was able to sense the Nameks from King Kai's planet so maybe his ki sensing improved more by that point.

King Kai's planet seems to be unique in that it can be used to hone on all corners of the northern quadrant of the universe. Probably has to do with the role King Kai has as an overseer.

We know Gohan was able to astound his father and Shin with his outburst from a partially completed potential unlock ritual. Visually he appeared to be in the early stages of transforming into a Super Saiyan there. It may just be my impression but I suspect it would have to be greater than Gohan's training results from using the Z-Sword for Goku to react that way. Isn't it possible that some residual amount of that power could have been retained in Gohan's Super Saiyan form during ROF? Clearly he doesn't have Ultimate at the time but perhaps some fragment... It's just speculation though.