Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

Even though Gohan's SS2 is the strongest shared reference they have, if Toyotaro meant for the comment to be just empty words with no weight, it wouldn't even be there to begin with.

If Toyo wanted to express Trunks was actually much stronger than that -on a level way beyond SS3, for instance, he could've used Buu, "you could take Buu on your own" . Sure, at the moment of the statement, the flashback of the Future Buu arc hadn't been shown yet, but those are all decisions of the writer.
Like the absence of YOU KNOW AFTER YOU LEFT, THIS BUU GUY APPEARED, HE WAS REALLY STRONG BLA BLA, YOU ARE EVEN BEYOND HIM. There's no need for Trunks to have familiarity with the reference if he's actually that far ahead, for the comparison to resonate with him. Also, it's for the reader, not just for Trunks.
Goku didn't know about the Future Trunks arc, but the author did, so he could have tweaked the order of the events told, or the comparison for it to make sense for us and for Trunks.


I mean, if Upa came back and happened to be as strong as current base Goku, would it make sense to say you are even stronger than Tao Pai Pai, just because Upa only met that guy? Wouldn't it be better to have a brief recap and place Upa where he actually belongs?

[Koitsukai]

I'll add one more thing to my post, sorry, it was already too long:
If Trunks is really that much stronger than Gohan, and that is the only reference Trunks has, then a simple YOU ARE WORLDS ABOVE GOHAN or something alike would've done the job. If in fact, the idea was to have Trunks worlds above Gohan and not just much stronger yet in the same nebulous realm of Majin Vegeta.

[Kenneth La Torre]

The manga showed Beerus seemingly having defeated Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan.

It's surely safe to assume the angry Super Saiyan Vegeta that went up against Beerus surpassed them as well.

Kinda the only assumption to make honestly. Trying to twists it so that Vegeta is weaker than the people Beerus previously no sold is kinda an extremely hard task.

[Lionel]

Toriyama doesn't always convey the full scope of the discrepancy between one character and the other. The previously mentioned example with Ginyu is a case in point. At the time of Goku challenging Freeza he was already twenty five times greater than the tyrant's best subordinate. A more pertinent comparison would have been Vegeta but for whatever reason Freeza elected to use his strongest underling as a reference point.

[ZombieVito]

This discussion about SS2 Vegeta vs. SS Goku Black in the manga just happened literally a month ago.

Anyway, it just requires to assume Vegeta retains his amped SS2 form from BoG, which surpass Goku’s SS3. Trunks just demonstrated how he underwent a similar process and caught up to Goku’s SS3. And also remember Goku Black’s SS form was still a work-in-progress, according to Trunks and the multiple power-ups it received.

Problem is that nowhere in the chapter is that said.

You would think Trunks will wonder why Vegeta is beating someone 50 times stronger than the guy who tormented him for a year with just Super Saiyan 2.

[Skar]

Goku9001 explained it well. Gohan from the Cell Games was the last mutual reference point that Goku and Future Trunks have. I assume Goku would want for Trunks to understand who it is that he's being compared to.

I recall it's only been seven years in the future timeline since Trunks killed Cell. A few years after that he needed to unlock SSJ2 to kill Dabura then only had maybe a year or two of SSJ2 training. I think reaching Buu saga SSJ3 Goku is already impressive for having the least amount of time in SSJ2 compared to the other Saiyans.

King Kai's planet seems to be unique in that it can be used to hone on all corners of the northern quadrant of the universe. Probably has to do with the role King Kai has as an overseer.

We know Gohan was able to astound his father and Shin with his outburst from a partially completed potential unlock ritual. Visually he appeared to be in the early stages of transforming into a Super Saiyan there. It may just be my impression but I suspect it would have to be greater than Gohan's training results from using the Z-Sword for Goku to react that way. Isn't it possible that some residual amount of that power could have been retained in Gohan's Super Saiyan form during ROF? Clearly he doesn't have Ultimate at the time but perhaps some fragment... It's just speculation though.

That's possible. I think RoF had a few examples of Toriyama forgetting some details over time like Freeza thinking a PL of 1.3 million would be enough and Piccolo struggling against a Zarbon-tier henchmen with no mention that they trained. I'm not sure if he would've remembered SSJ3 tier opponent could be sensed from Other World or maybe assumed that a big enough surge in power was enough. In Super Hero, it seems Gohan can still go SSJ1 before Ultimate so I assumed Toriyama kept it in simple RoF and that was only a weaker SSJ1 Gohan at the time.

[Lionel]

Goku9001 explained it well. Gohan from the Cell Games was the last mutual reference point that Goku and Future Trunks have. I assume Goku would want for Trunks to understand who it is that he's being compared to.

I recall it's only been seven years in the future timeline since Trunks killed Cell. A few years after that he needed to unlock SSJ2 to kill Dabura then only had maybe a year or two of SSJ2 training. I think reaching Buu saga SSJ3 Goku is already impressive for having the least amount of time in SSJ2 compared to the other Saiyans.

King Kai's planet seems to be unique in that it can be used to hone on all corners of the northern quadrant of the universe. Probably has to do with the role King Kai has as an overseer.

We know Gohan was able to astound his father and Shin with his outburst from a partially completed potential unlock ritual. Visually he appeared to be in the early stages of transforming into a Super Saiyan there. It may just be my impression but I suspect it would have to be greater than Gohan's training results from using the Z-Sword for Goku to react that way. Isn't it possible that some residual amount of that power could have been retained in Gohan's Super Saiyan form during ROF? Clearly he doesn't have Ultimate at the time but perhaps some fragment... It's just speculation though.

That's possible. I think RoF had a few examples of Toriyama forgetting some details over time like Freeza thinking a PL of 1.3 million would be enough and Piccolo struggling against a Zarbon-tier henchmen with no mention that they trained. I'm not sure if he would've remembered SSJ3 tier opponent could be sensed from Other World or maybe assumed that a big enough surge in power was enough. In Super Hero, it seems Gohan can still go SSJ1 before Ultimate so I assumed Toriyama kept it in simple RoF and that was only a weaker SSJ1 Gohan at the time.

Frankly, ROF is a mess as far as power scaling is concerned. A Zarbon level opponent shouldn't be an issue for any of them except Roshi. Gohan shouldn't be speculating on whether he can still transform into a Super Saiyan when he could access SSJ2 after seven years of domestic living between the Cell and Buu arcs.

From the time he transformed to pull out the Z-Sword to Shisami, Gohan wasn't using Super Saiyan as far as we knew. We're not sure exactly how powerful Gohan's Super Saiyan form would have been except that it's inferior to Ultimate.

[ZombieVito]

Frankly, ROF is a mess as far as power scaling is concerned. A Zarbon level opponent shouldn't be an issue for any of them except Roshi. Gohan shouldn't be speculating on whether he can still transform into a Super Saiyan when he could access SSJ2 after seven years of domestic living between the Cell and Buu arcs.

From the time he transformed to pull out the Z-Sword to Shisami, Gohan wasn't using Super Saiyan as far as we knew. We're not sure exactly how powerful Gohan's Super Saiyan form would have been except that it's inferior to Ultimate.

To be fair. Shisami being Zarbon tier was an error from Toei.

In Toriyama's script, Shisami is not even on the scene when the comparison was made. He only appears on Earth and it is said that Freeza hired powerful mercenaries to his army. Shisami is said to be the strongest in the army too.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'll add one more thing to my post, sorry, it was already too long:
If Trunks is really that much stronger than Gohan, and that is the only reference Trunks has, then a simple YOU ARE WORLDS ABOVE GOHAN or something alike would've done the job. If in fact, the idea was to have Trunks worlds above Gohan and not just much stronger yet in the same nebulous realm of Majin Vegeta.

Well Goku does say Trunks is “much better than Gohan was back then”, which is as straightforward as it gets. Majin Vegeta is by no means “much stronger” than Gohan was, so he too was already surpassed by default even without being mentioned.

I really don’t know what’s the issue here. We already know SSJ2 Goku is stupidly stronger than Gohan used to be, but apparently him saying the same about Trunks suddenly means they’re not far apart? What?

[Koitsukai]

I agree, I don't see the issue. Toyo having every means at hand, every previous benchmark available, chose SS2 Gohan to convey to us where Goku and Trunks stood at that time. You don't even need Goku to convey Trunks is actually much stronger, there was a plethora of characters around.

There's no way I'm buying Toyo wrote that specific dialogue counting we'd do mental gymnastics to disprove it, instead of just having Vegeta say oh he's even stronger than Buutenks with a proud smile on his face.

[picc]

I just assumed they used Gohan as a reference point because SSJ2 was the common form they had all attained. Like, "your SSJ2 is so far beyond Gohan's". If Trunks had used SSJ3, they would have used that as a reference point.

[Goku9001]

SSJ2 Kid Gohan was the strongest power that Trunks was privy to during their time on Earth hence why it was mentioned. The reason why that statement is in there is just to indicate that Trunks was a powerful individual that Goku was paying his respects to which further emphasizes how much of a threat Goku Black was once their fight ends. I believe the narrative has been clear that Goku and Vegeta hadn't reached their limits and pursued pushing their power even further until the end of the Goku Black arc as well as the Tournament of Power where it is clear that Goku and Vegeta were starting to hit a wall.

Prior to Champa's visit to Beerus' planet, Vegeta vows to get stronger which Goku agrees with. During their time on Whis' planet, Whis makes his intentions clear for Goku and Vegeta to not transform so majority of their training up until that point was primarily in their Base forms. In preparation for the U6 Tournament, Toyotaro explicitly mentions that the duo were training for 3 years as if it were a crucial detail. The anime makes it abundantly clear that Vegeta was improving during their training in the Rosat. In the Goku Black saga, Vegeta is shown training in his Base form against Trunks which leads to the immense power growth he displayed against Goku Black. Goku was explicitly shown to do his own training prior to the encounter. Later, we are revealed that Goku Black could receive zenkais and Goku and Trunks both believe Vegeta can take advantage of it, meaning that he had never hit a wall until recently. This implication goes out the window if Goku and Vegeta had barely progressed throughout the entirety of Super.

I'm not seeing the implications made about Vegeta mastering his Super Saiyan 2. The natural assumption as is the case where Vegeta vows to grow stronger on Whis' planet by training in Base is that Vegeta had grown stronger overall hence why he is explicitly shown doing similar training with Trunks. I feel this is all headcanon to support an arbitrary notion that Goku and Vegeta were barely growing stronger when the manga makes it abundantly clear that the fighters reach limits only to shatter them soon after. It's only towards the end of the Tournament of Power in particular where Goku and Vegeta both complain about hitting a wall that seemed insurmountable. I'm not picking up on this arbitrary notion solely from reading the previous sagas.

[Goku9001]

Wasn't that pre-Rosat? I recall Vegeta only used the God/Blue combo in their second fight. That whole first fight was pretty confusing. SSJ2 Vegeta performs better against SSJ Goku Black while SSJ2 Trunks who was close to SSJ3 Goku couldn't defeat Base Black. Then we got SSJ Black beating Blue Vegeta. I'm not sure what Toyotaro was trying to indicate since SSJ2 Vegeta would need to maybe be hundreds of times stronger than SSJ3 Goku that had just fought Trunks a chapter before. The anime made it easier in this case since I think he went straight to Blue in their first fight implying that SSJ2 Vegeta wasn't much stronger than SSJ2 Trunks like Goku's level in the manga.

Some implications could be unclear but a direct comparison by name is usually intended by an author. I think it's important to remember the target audience. Toriyama and Toyotaro don't expect young kids to question direct statements and go back and forth to figure it out on their own like older fans online. Goku mentioned when SSJ2 Trunks surpassed Cell Games Gohan which was also the last comment about SSJ2 Goku since the Buu saga. I think Frost had the same intention. Young fans could assume he was weaker than SSJ Vegeta but stronger than Piccolo which fits with a Cell saga opponent.

I think people can easily assume that Goku and Vegeta simply had become much stronger. Based on the rumors they were told, they concluded that Goku Black wouldn't be an easy opponent to defeat. Later, they are shown training in their base forms to the point where they easily overcome Goku Black who had grown even stronger. Doesn't get any simpler than that.

[Skar]

I think people can easily assume that Goku and Vegeta simply had become much stronger. Based on the rumors they were told, they concluded that Goku Black wouldn't be an easy opponent to defeat. Later, they are shown training in their base forms to the point where they easily overcome Goku Black who had grown even stronger. Doesn't get any simpler than that.

Well we know they get stronger because it's shonen but it's not clear how much stronger their previous form become. That's simple but I think all the effort to refute a direct comparison between two characters isn't. Based on the disagreements in this thread, those aren't the simplest conclusions since it requires you to believe interpretations that aren't really the most straightforward. I'm not sure what would contradict SSJ2 Trunks only being around Buu saga SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta since the same reference was used.

[Goku9001]

I think people can easily assume that Goku and Vegeta simply had become much stronger. Based on the rumors they were told, they concluded that Goku Black wouldn't be an easy opponent to defeat. Later, they are shown training in their base forms to the point where they easily overcome Goku Black who had grown even stronger. Doesn't get any simpler than that.

Well we know they get stronger because it's shonen but it's not clear how much stronger their previous form become. That's simple but I think all the effort to refute a direct comparison between two characters isn't. Based on the disagreements in this thread, those aren't the simplest conclusions since it requires you to believe interpretations that aren't really the most straightforward. I'm not sure what would contradict SSJ2 Trunks only being around Buu saga SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta since the same reference was used.

I'm talking about when Goku first meets Trunks to when they first encounter Goku Black. I'm not strictly referring to the comparison made by Trunks and Kid Gohan. Regardless, there's an easy explanation to this.

[Skar]

I'm talking about when Goku first meets Trunks to when they first encounter Goku Black. I'm not strictly referring to the comparison made by Trunks and Kid Gohan. Regardless, there's an easy explanation to this.

I was talking about direct comparisons in general. I think the easiest explanation would be taking them at face value. Trunks didn't do much that arc until the end so I don't see why see the need to refute the comparison and claim he's several (hundred?) times stronger than the Gohan that was brought up.

[Hugo Boss]

This discussion about SS2 Vegeta vs. SS Goku Black in the manga just happened literally a month ago.

Anyway, it just requires to assume Vegeta retains his amped SS2 form from BoG, which surpass Goku’s SS3. Trunks just demonstrated how he underwent a similar process and caught up to Goku’s SS3. And also remember Goku Black’s SS form was still a work-in-progress, according to Trunks and the multiple power-ups it received.

Problem is that nowhere in the chapter is that said.

You would think Trunks will wonder why Vegeta is beating someone 50 times stronger than the guy who tormented him for a year with just Super Saiyan 2.

Trunks wouldn’t find that any strange since he himself is able to push SS2 beyond its normal capacity. It’s not stretchy to assume Vegeta is more skilled than him on this department. Not to mention Trunks realized Goku Black’s SS form was stronger than before, so he couldn’t extract the full 50-fold multiplier until his progress was complete. Further confirmation comes from Goku Black on chapter 20.

[Goku9001]

I'm talking about when Goku first meets Trunks to when they first encounter Goku Black. I'm not strictly referring to the comparison made by Trunks and Kid Gohan. Regardless, there's an easy explanation to this.

I was talking about direct comparisons in general. I think the easiest explanation would be taking them at face value. Trunks didn't do much that arc until the end so I don't see why see the need to refute the comparison and claim he's several (hundred?) times stronger than the Gohan that was brought up.

That's your own subtext that you're adding into it. The comparison doesn't stop Trunks from being several times stronger than Kid Gohan.

[Skar]

That's your own subtext that you're adding into it. The comparison doesn't stop Trunks from being several times stronger than Kid Gohan.

All we know is that he was said to stronger than Kid Gohan. How much stronger depends on your interpretation of how strong SSJ2 Goku is at that point. Goku brought up Buu earlier asking if that who was attacking Trunks timeline so Goku could've said that Trunks could've easily defeated Buu. The comparison is for the audience not the character who is already aware of how strong they are.

[Goku9001]

That's your own subtext that you're adding into it. The comparison doesn't stop Trunks from being several times stronger than Kid Gohan.

All we know is that he was said to stronger than Kid Gohan. How much stronger depends on your interpretation of how strong SSJ2 Goku is at that point. Goku brought up Buu earlier asking if that who was attacking Trunks timeline so Goku could've said that Trunks could've easily defeated Buu. The comparison is for the audience not the character who is already aware of how strong they are.

The comparison also depends on the context in which it is being made. Kid Gohan was the simplest and most relevant reference to compare to. The only thing we know for certain is that Goku claims Trunks is much stronger than Kid Gohan in which Trunks interjects that it is no surprise given that he's been training intensively for 10 years. Therefore, nothing prevents Trunks from being many times stronger than Kid Gohan. That's really all I'm saying.