Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

[Nistarkail]

Yeah, I would like to know why Gohan seems to deteriorate so rapidly after a scant few years of inactivity from training yet characters such as Krillin and Yamcha are able to maintain the lead ahead of Tenshinhan and Chaozu respectively. We have no confirmation on the positioning of the humans throughout the early and mid portions of Super but nothing has been provided to indicate the dynamics have changed; except for Roshi being deemed a more adequate set of boots to put on the ground compared to Yamcha and Chaozu despite his advanced age presumably making any prospects of substantial growth unlikely for him.

When Krillin faces Yunba, he stated that he was not like 20 days before the first match. So, leaving Yamcha and Tien whose information about training are null, the "strongest" earthing did something (but surely without the RoSaT or Gravity Room). So, he was the only one who improved among the trio.

He crashed his head on the building without being K.O.ed and he finished the fight with some effort against a doped opponent, so I suppose that now he was at level of Dr. Gero or C-19.

First, he crashed on a the building before being too much damaged.



And then, he K.O.ed his opponent without the intent to kill . But honestly, the idea of Toyotaro was to show that not always slight differences between power levels count every time.

[Block88]

So it's confirmed that Gohan is a character failure for the 3rd time

https://twitter.com/DBSChronicles/statu ... dbfaw&s=19

Oh goodie another example of AT being a hack
Man it's always so amazing to repeat the same trick day n out

[Mr_CINDER]

So it's confirmed that Gohan is a character failure for the 3rd time

https://twitter.com/DBSChronicles/statu ... dbfaw&s=19

Toriyama apparently dont know how to progress his characters anymore, thats why gohan again needs motivation to become super saiyan , he again needs to relieve those experiences for some reason its like they are all stuck in a loop where everyone learning same thing over and over again. Piccolo unleashing his true potential by wishing to dragon so toriyama saying F the hardwork(Piccolo is his favorite character), I am sorry but it seems Toriyama is completely out of ideas.

[Jord]

The whole problem is not Toriyama doesn't know how to progress the characters, it's that their arcs at their current age have already concluded at the end of the Buu fight. They're done. The only way Toriyama knows how to let them progress is to let them regress again and re-gain their progress.

A more effective way would be aging but it seems they don't want to touch EoZ territory.
There is a lot to say about GT but at least the characters progressed in that show.

[Geraldo]

Yeah, I would like to know why Gohan seems to deteriorate so rapidly after a scant few years of inactivity from training yet characters such as Krillin and Yamcha are able to maintain the lead ahead of Tenshinhan and Chaozu respectively. We have no confirmation on the positioning of the humans throughout the early and mid portions of Super but nothing has been provided to indicate the dynamics have changed; except for Roshi being deemed a more adequate set of boots to put on the ground compared to Yamcha and Chaozu despite his advanced age presumably making any prospects of substantial growth unlikely for him.

When Krillin faces Yunba, he stated that he was not like 20 days before the first match. So, leaving Yamcha and Tien whose information about training are null, the "strongest" earthing did something (but surely without the RoSaT or Gravity Room). So, he was the only one who improved among the trio.

He crashed his head on the building without being K.O.ed and he finished the fight with some effort against a doped opponent, so I suppose that now he was at level of Dr. Gero or C-19.

First, he crashed on a the building before being too much damaged.



And then, he K.O.ed his opponent without the intent to kill . But honestly, the idea of Toyotaro was to show that not always slight differences between power levels count every time.

1) Their battles were stated to be 2 months apart.
2) Krillin and everyone were stated to have been training intensively during these 2 months timeframe to defeat moro and his goons which made them "stronger than ever".

[Lord Beerus]

I honestly think Gohan should be retired as a character entirely. If nobody (Toriayam, Toyotaro or Toei) can think of a way to develop his character organically, he should NOT be included in stories, especially as a central character. He becomes less of a character and more of a prop at this point and considering Gohan is arguably the tritagonist of all of Dragon Ball, that is a tragic place for him to be in the grand scale of the narrative.

You could make the case of Gohan not training, becoming rusty in martial art and having to regain his Ultimate form again as some kind of insidious running gag, but there's no notable tongue-in-cheek commentary made about it (as far as I'm aware). It's all played horribly straight. This just makes me believe that Toriyama doesn't care enough about Gohan's character to come up with anything original for him and has run out of ideas on how to handle Gohan's character.

It is so unfortunate to see a character like Gohan become so static, but that's what happens when you write more stories during a period with a definitive status quo and feature characters whose character arcs have ended naturally.

[Alkiser]

I think Gohan's current status is a result of Toriyama not looking at the sagas from the anime or manga, in the drafts of the sagas he has done so far there was nothing about Gohan regaining his Ultimate form in the series. It's all an extra from Toei, Toyotaro so far hasn't confirmed that Gohan in the manga is using the Ultimate state because he looks like he's still in base form.

So I think he's looking more at his outline from previous sagas, and based on that he's determining something because simply in his notes that Toyotaro and Toei provide there was nothing about Ultimate Gohan in the series and manga, and it was all additions from Toei or Toyotaro. So in Toriyama's eyes most likely Gohan hasn't learned that yet.

[Cipher]

There could have been a bit more coordination with Gohan here, but I suspect this also has a lot to do with Toriyama starting this project pretty hot off the heels of Broly.

He could have tempered expectations with Gohan via oversight and corrections in the Moro arc, but then would you really want Gohan to have to essentially sit that arc out too? He (and Toyotaro? who knows?) probably figured it was best to just let him stay active in the manga as well, with a liberal view of the overall story and time skips between the manga arcs and films accounting for Gohan slipping back into old habits in Super Hero.

It's a little awkward, but Gohan hasn't gotten his moment in Super in a really big, major project like this yet, nor under Toriyama's pen, so ... It is what it is! The whole story can still fit together in broad strokes, and if it makes for a fun stand-alone film, we'll all live.

[Alkiser]

I think Gohan's current status is a result of Toriyama not looking at the sagas from the anime or manga, in the drafts of the sagas he has done so far there was nothing about Gohan regaining his Ultimate form in the series. It's all an extra from Toei, Toyotaro so far hasn't confirmed that Gohan in the manga is using the Ultimate state because he looks like he's still in base form.

So I think he's looking more at his outline from previous sagas, and based on that he's determining something because simply in his notes that Toyotaro and Toei provide there was nothing about Ultimate Gohan in the series and manga, and it was all additions from Toei or Toyotaro. So in Toriyama's eyes most likely Gohan hasn't learned that yet.

Because it was not in those outlines of his sag

[Bebi Hatchiyack]

A little question do we know where this movie takes place in the timeline ?

[Alkiser]

I honestly think Gohan should be retired as a character entirely. If nobody (Toriayam, Toyotaro or Toei) can think of a way to develop his character organically, he should NOT be included in stories, especially as a central character. He becomes less of a character and more of a prop at this point and considering Gohan is arguably the tritagonist of all of Dragon Ball, that is a tragic place for him to be in the grand scale of the narrative.

You could make the case of Gohan not training, becoming rusty in martial art and having to regain his Ultimate form again as some kind of insidious running gag, but there's no notable tongue-in-cheek commentary made about it (as far as I'm aware). It's all played horribly straight. This just makes me believe that Toriyama doesn't care enough about Gohan's character to come up with anything original for him and has run out of ideas on how to handle Gohan's character.

It is so unfortunate to see a character like Gohan become so static, but that's what happens when you write more stories during a period with a definitive status quo and feature characters whose character arcs have ended naturally.

Nonsense

Super has repeatedly violated DBZ's status quo

It was supposed to be 10 years of peace, and it turns out that more happens in those 10 years than in all of DBZ

Bulma wasn't supposed to see Goku for 5 years, and most likely she didn't see him for a few months

The Kaioshini were supposed to be at the top of the hierarchy and it turns out that Zeno is above them

Bulma was supposed to be old at the end, and a year or two before EOZ she rejuvenated herself with shenron

[Mac]

We're really doing the Gohan slacking thing yet again? What is this, the third time now? I didn't like that plot point the first time.

I'm not gonna complain that he's finally getting the focus for once, that's a nice change. But it definitely feels like nothing sticks in Super between the anime/manga/films, they're all doing something different.

[cEgocentrico]

We're really doing the Gohan slacking thing yet again? What is this, the third time now? I didn't like that plot point the first time.

I'm not gonna complain that he's finally getting the focus for once, that's a nice change. But it definitely feels like nothing sticks in Super between the anime/manga/films, they're all doing something different.

Exactly, there are three different continuities.
From the beginning we saw differences between Bulma's birthday in CC or on the yacht.

The only reason Chikara no Taikai was mentioned in DBS Broly was to explain why Frieza is alive after dying in Fukkatsu no F.

[TheSaiyanGod]

To be honest, Goku apologizes to Gohan in the Moro arc for making him fight again, implying that those 2 months of training was only due to Moro's threat and wasn't a recurring thing after the ToP. But even so, the impression was that Gohan was always ready to defend Earth in case something happened and without losing his old shape again because apparently he learned a lesson, which doesn't seem to be the case in the movie. It also conflicts with Gohan saying in the FT arc that he was training in the gravity room because no one was calling him for fights lately and he wanted to be ready. Here it seems he doesn't really care

The movie in theory takes place years after these things so I guess you can pretend that Gohan just forgot all of this and slacked off again but it really makes you wonder if Toriyama even considers or remembers anything outside of the outlines he wrote for the anime/manga. This is ToP all over again (including Gohan cycling through his old forms and "unlocking" Ultimate again) and it's as if for Toriyama, Gohan never went any through this.

[Lord Beerus]

I honestly think Gohan should be retired as a character entirely. If nobody (Toriayam, Toyotaro or Toei) can think of a way to develop his character organically, he should NOT be included in stories, especially as a central character. He becomes less of a character and more of a prop at this point and considering Gohan is arguably the tritagonist of all of Dragon Ball, that is a tragic place for him to be in the grand scale of the narrative.

You could make the case of Gohan not training, becoming rusty in martial art and having to regain his Ultimate form again as some kind of insidious running gag, but there's no notable tongue-in-cheek commentary made about it (as far as I'm aware). It's all played horribly straight. This just makes me believe that Toriyama doesn't care enough about Gohan's character to come up with anything original for him and has run out of ideas on how to handle Gohan's character.

It is so unfortunate to see a character like Gohan become so static, but that's what happens when you write more stories during a period with a definitive status quo and feature characters whose character arcs have ended naturally.

Nonsense

Super has repeatedly violated DBZ's status quo

It was supposed to be 10 years of peace, and it turns out that more happens in those 10 years than in all of DBZ

Bulma wasn't supposed to see Goku for 5 years, and most likely she didn't see him for a few months

The Kaioshini were supposed to be at the top of the hierarchy and it turns out that Zeno is above them

Bulma was supposed to be old at the end, and a year or two before EOZ she rejuvenated herself with shenron

None of those changes has had any substantial effect on the characters themselves in terms of how they are developed or how they even interact with the universe.

[Alkiser]

I honestly think Gohan should be retired as a character entirely. If nobody (Toriayam, Toyotaro or Toei) can think of a way to develop his character organically, he should NOT be included in stories, especially as a central character. He becomes less of a character and more of a prop at this point and considering Gohan is arguably the tritagonist of all of Dragon Ball, that is a tragic place for him to be in the grand scale of the narrative.

You could make the case of Gohan not training, becoming rusty in martial art and having to regain his Ultimate form again as some kind of insidious running gag, but there's no notable tongue-in-cheek commentary made about it (as far as I'm aware). It's all played horribly straight. This just makes me believe that Toriyama doesn't care enough about Gohan's character to come up with anything original for him and has run out of ideas on how to handle Gohan's character.

It is so unfortunate to see a character like Gohan become so static, but that's what happens when you write more stories during a period with a definitive status quo and feature characters whose character arcs have ended naturally.

Nonsense

Super has repeatedly violated DBZ's status quo

It was supposed to be 10 years of peace, and it turns out that more happens in those 10 years than in all of DBZ

Bulma wasn't supposed to see Goku for 5 years, and most likely she didn't see him for a few months

The Kaioshini were supposed to be at the top of the hierarchy and it turns out that Zeno is above them

Bulma was supposed to be old at the end, and a year or two before EOZ she rejuvenated herself with shenron

None of those changes has had any substantial effect on the characters themselves in terms of how they are developed or how they even interact with the universe.

Because there's nothing to change, Goku no matter what happened would still be the same Goku, same with Bulma, Gohan, Chichi or Vegeta. It doesn't matter if it's after or before 28 TB. In Gohan's case, all he would need to do is train and balance his job with it and that's it.

[Lord Beerus]

Nonsense

Super has repeatedly violated DBZ's status quo

It was supposed to be 10 years of peace, and it turns out that more happens in those 10 years than in all of DBZ

Bulma wasn't supposed to see Goku for 5 years, and most likely she didn't see him for a few months

The Kaioshini were supposed to be at the top of the hierarchy and it turns out that Zeno is above them

Bulma was supposed to be old at the end, and a year or two before EOZ she rejuvenated herself with shenron

None of those changes has had any substantial effect on the characters themselves in terms of how they are developed or how they even interact with the universe.

Because there's nothing to change, Goku no matter what happened would still be the same Goku, same with Bulma, Gohan, Chichi or Vegeta. It doesn't matter if it's after or before 28 TB. In Gohan's case, all he would need to do is train and balance his job with it and that's it.

You... just proved my point...

If there's nothing to change about these characters then that means where are in a status quo because regardless of what plot development may occur it will no effect on the dynamic of the cast or how they are personally developed in any permanent sense.

[Alkiser]

None of those changes has had any substantial effect on the characters themselves in terms of how they are developed or how they even interact with the universe.

Because there's nothing to change, Goku no matter what happened would still be the same Goku, same with Bulma, Gohan, Chichi or Vegeta. It doesn't matter if it's after or before 28 TB. In Gohan's case, all he would need to do is train and balance his job with it and that's it.

You... just proved my point...

If there's nothing to change about these characters then that means where are in a status quo because regardless of what plot development may occur it will no effect on the dynamic of the cast or how they are personally developed in any permanent sense.

The only characters that have undergone any change in DBZ are Vegeta and Piccolo, Goku only started using his Saiyan abilities after learning the truth about his origin. Almost no one in DBZ went through with our change of character or views so even there was little to change.

[Lord Beerus]

Because there's nothing to change, Goku no matter what happened would still be the same Goku, same with Bulma, Gohan, Chichi or Vegeta. It doesn't matter if it's after or before 28 TB. In Gohan's case, all he would need to do is train and balance his job with it and that's it.

You... just proved my point...

If there's nothing to change about these characters then that means where are in a status quo because regardless of what plot development may occur it will no effect on the dynamic of the cast or how they are personally developed in any permanent sense.

The only characters that have undergone any change in DBZ are Vegeta and Piccolo, Goku only started using his Saiyan abilities after learning the truth about his origin. Almost no one in DBZ went through with our change of character or views so even there was little to change.

I'm quite confused at the point you're trying to make and especially how you're trying to frame it.

Are you trying to justify the lack of character development for the current cast of characters in Super is due to what the original series already did with them? If so, then you are unintentionally agreeing with my original point of retiring Gohan as a character if you can't figure out a way to develop him organically due to his character arc already concluding in the original manga.

[Alkiser]

You... just proved my point...

If there's nothing to change about these characters then that means where are in a status quo because regardless of what plot development may occur it will no effect on the dynamic of the cast or how they are personally developed in any permanent sense.

The only characters that have undergone any change in DBZ are Vegeta and Piccolo, Goku only started using his Saiyan abilities after learning the truth about his origin. Almost no one in DBZ went through with our change of character or views so even there was little to change.

I'm quite confused at the point you're trying to make and especially how you're trying to frame it.

Are you trying to justify the lack of character development for the current cast of characters in Super is due to what the original series already did with them? If so, then you are unintentionally agreeing with my original point of retiring Gohan as a character if you can't figure out a way to develop him organically due to his character arc already concluding in the original manga.

It's no development, 4 year old Gohan didn't like to fight so 25 year old Gohan also doesn't like to fight with the difference that he stopped being a coward.