Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

[JulieYBM]

Julie and others, Please reconsider this constant dishonesty. It harms more than your average malicious troll, and is the reason I and probably others stay away from these discussions here. Most people here agree with the sexism in DB being...well, there. There is no need to disproportion it and invent malicious intent everywhere. You wont change anyone's mind this way, because the only ones willing to ignore it are some of those who already agree with you, and to the rest you alienate; which is a shame because there are some less agreed points that are worth a discussion, but not like this.

I have not been dishonest and have acted with a sincere belief in the issues at hand.

I'm not responsible for how a select few men (I'm assuming genders here) choose to react to "wow, this sucks I hope it stops" and "Toriyama knows better" and "multi-million dollar companies know better" and "the industry and society are extremely corrupt and the first step to changing that is acknowledging it."

I generally like Dragon Ball. I roll with a LOT of the punches when consuming mainstream media because of how engrained this shit is on every level. My feelings on Dragon Ball have of course changed over the 24 years of my fandom. I am not the little girl I was in 1998. I am not the teenage girl who joined these forums in 2006, either. I'm not the nihilistic woman from 2016-2019. Views on art change with new experiences and I'd like to think a new perspective added to the discussion will elevate it and make it better. Unfortunately, I can't do that without uncalled for backlash that ignores facts and experiences that anyone can learn about from either being a woman or reading about the experiences women face.

I'm honestly tired. Okay, I did just take melatonin but that's not the only reason I'm tired. I'm tired of fandom not being particularly welcoming or self-reflecting. Also, again, melatonin. Good night.

[Yuji]

If a woman is sexually harassed, then it's problematic because the woman is submissive and being taken advantage of.
If a woman is the sexual harasser, it's also problematic because the woman is being portrayed negatively and ignoring boundaries.

I get the idea that no matter what Toriyama wrote it would be problematic.

I'm assuming in general that you folks just believe sexual harassment gags are off-limits, which is fine, but for as much as you talk about context, I don't believe you think there's any acceptable context to make these kinds of jokes to begin with. Don't speak as if there is some magical content where you would believe these gags are acceptable if done differently.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

Guess I gotta address this,

Cool your jets Rorikon, you'd be surprised at how many invisible Boogie Men I don't believe in... Nice try though.

I am genuinely not surprised. You come across as a run of the mill sexist, the type that's widespread in keeping women down to a level that's more suitable to your needs instead of theirs.

Thing is, if my jets are cooled or not, I'm not gonna sit there and entertain you clearly using this topic to insinuate Julie is crazy. You may feel safe on this site cause mostly men are on here, particularly anime fans who are notorious for not giving a shit about women, but that don't mean everyone is gonna tolerate your very clear sexism.

And no, I have no interest in trying to persuade people who clearly have hate ingrained in them. You and others will not be changing no matter what Julie or I ever say. I'm not going to cater to your feelings or anyone elses especially when the narrative is that we're 'crazy'.

[Yuji]

I can't believe the self-proclaimed lolicon is standing up for women's rights.

[super michael]

Videl losing against Spopovich was important to her character development, thanks to that lose she learns that she isn't the best and that there are opponent stronger and more skillful than her.

Videl was a great character, but she was arrogant thinking that she was the best, only because she was stronger than Mr Satan. This is what happens when one doesn't taste defeat and is the strongest normal human.

Videl could have given up at any moment, unlike when the Z fighters fight villains.

In my opinion Videl is a better character than Chi Chi by a lot.

[dragonmagico]

I can't believe the self-proclaimed lolicon is standing up for women's rights.

Why? Actions speak louder than words so pedophiles gotta talk real loud.

[JulieYBM]

If a woman is sexually harassed, then it's problematic because the woman is submissive and being taken advantage of.
If a woman is the sexual harasser, it's also problematic because the woman is being portrayed negatively and ignoring boundaries.

I get the idea that no matter what Toriyama wrote it would be problematic.

I'm assuming in general that you folks just believe sexual harassment gags are off-limits, which is fine, but for as much as you talk about context, I don't believe you think there's any acceptable context to make these kinds of jokes to begin with. Don't speak as if there is some magical content where you would believe these gags are acceptable if done differently.

There is some magical context where I think a serious depiction of a woman sexually harassing a man created by a man would be acceptable. Speaking from his own experience and/or hiring female experts as credited consultants for crafting the depiction of the subject to insure a rich and genuine depiction while also not coming across as a spurned incel writing hate fiction.

[Yuji]

We're talking about gags here, not serious depictions. Gags and jokes have the luxury of ignoring content and nuance because that's the entire point.

I ask again, is Toriyama forbidden from making these jokes on account of being a (presumably) cishet male, or would there be some magical context where he could make jokes around sexual harassment and pull it off?

[JulieYBM]

We're talking about gags here, not serious depictions. Gags and jokes have the luxury of ignoring content and nuance because that's the entire point.

I ask again, is Toriyama forbidden from making these jokes on account of being a (presumably) cishet male, or would there be some magical context where he could make jokes around sexual harassment and pull it off?

I've heard enough jokes about women from cishet men to fill a life time. They're not funny because of the inherent power balance in real life and

Frankly I just do not know why we need to make uncritical jokes about sexual harassment and assault of women in a kid's comic. It's one thing if you're teaching kids a nuanced lesson of how sexual harassment and assault is bad...but Toriyama doesn't ever make that explicitly clear in his writing.

Anyway, the short answer is: "no."

[Majin Buu]

Videl losing against Spopovich was important to her character development, thanks to that lose she learns that she isn't the best and that there are opponent stronger and more skillful than her.

This would be true if her development and role in the story had actually continued past that point, but that's where her relevance as a fighter and to the story effectively ends; so it comes off more like an excuse to sideline her and end her story instead of a roadblock in a continuing story like you're describing.

Videl was a great character, but she was arrogant thinking that she was the best, only because she was stronger than Mr Satan. This is what happens when one doesn't taste defeat and is the strongest normal human.

I don't think "arrogant" is the right word to describe her. Vegeta is arrogant, Videl only ever displayed confidence as a fighter.

Videl could have given up at any moment, unlike when the Z fighters fight villains.

That doesn't count for much considering she lost that fight, got brutalized in the process, and never got another chance to prove herself or otherwise come out on top as a fighter. This also overlooks that it's not framed as something admirable in the context of that fight, but rather her not knowing when to quit when she should have.

[VegettoEX]

Multiple long-term temp account bans have been issued.

[dva_raza]

..Aren’t people always saying Goku is written as some sort of idiot with no depth? Why would anyone expect a serious approach for writing any other character in db?

Edit- didn't see Cursed Lemon's post until after I submitted mine Lol

No one is expecting a shonen to have amazingly written characters. We just would like to see women represented in a equal fashion to the men. It's not rocket science.

I know. And I meant that they are presented in an equal fashion. In the sense that they are utilized as convenient for the story, which is, not a very serious approach. That's my point. Nobody is taken seriously.

In DB every character who is not needed or can’t fit in the storyline or tone is swept aside just as Tenshinhan, Krillin, Gohan, and others. It has nothing to do with gender.
The sex “humor” in DB sure is sexist. And also that has nothing to do with the topic’s question though so I'm not going to dwell in something that’s already agreed on.
I’m talking about the stereotypical role about them “being just housewives” which is what the topic is about.

And well as I see it, the only one who is made explicit that is a full time housewife is Chi Chi.
The main character isn’t “just a housewife” just because she got a family. (The argument that her wish is somehow sexist is amongst the most absurd reaches I have read on this website but that's kinda outside of the topic.)
In my opinion Bulma having a family doesn't minimize or make worse her contribution as a character or what I like about her personality wise.
In general I assess a character (or person's) value based on who they are, not on what they do.

And Videl and 18, I go back to my point of why would you expect something else, or what else exactly ?
If characters like Piccolo or Gohan were at some point suggested as potential leads or prominent antagonist and then became completely irrelevant I don’t see why you’d think that characters that were never even hinted to be main characters would transcend what they were introduced for.
Masenko's claim that Videl’s treatment is sexist because she’s a love interest is... wtf? That was literally the purpose of her character. She was introduced as a complementary character for Gohan’s story, and there wasn't a hint of anything else.
There is a difference between saying “I would’ve LIKED to see more of that character” and saying “the writer is stupid or wrong because he didn’t create what I imagined”.

[dva_raza]

Videl losing against Spopovich was important to her character development, thanks to that lose she learns that she isn't the best and that there are opponent stronger and more skillful than her.

This would be true if her development and role in the story had actually continued past that point, but that's where her relevance as a fighter and to the story effectively ends; so it comes off more like an excuse to sideline her and end her story instead of a roadblock in a continuing story like you're describing.

A character development doesn’t have to be extended. For a character with a short arc it can be a one time change after a certain event.
Videl had her arc, it was a short one and she got her development. And she doesn’t need her story to progress further to validate that development.

I don't think "arrogant" is the right word to describe her. Vegeta is arrogant, Videl only ever displayed confidence as a fighter.

Lol no. You can be confident and humble. She was arrogant. Full of herself, entitled and pretty mean.

I don't think she got beat out of a personality which is what is being argued. She simply had a bad attitude, then got hit with reality and changed. That's not disrespect to the character, it's the opposite.

And the change had little to do with the beating, I don't know why people obsess over this.
It had to do with being hit with 2 things: that the person she grew up admiring was a fraud, and that there was a whole world of absurd power levels that she didn’t even imagine. She was just overwhelmed. And you can be sure just losing a battle would not have had any impact for her if it hadn't been accompanied by this whole change in perspective.

Then, after the Buu ordeal there’s no confirmation that she even stopped fighting. She had a team project with Gohan in a movie, (I don’t care if it’s not canon), and then they had a family and both abandoned fighting at least partially to focus on other things.

If that’s something some of you personally dislike it's totally valid, but that doesn't mean it was contrived or wrong. In my opinion it felt realistic. People are often expected to love the talent that was inherited to them by parents and sometimes it’s just not the case and they have other interests.

That doesn't count for much considering she lost that fight, got brutalized in the process, and never got another chance to prove herself or otherwise come out on top as a fighter. This also overlooks that it's not framed as something admirable in the context of that fight, but rather her not knowing when to quit when she should have.

So? I fail to see why would she need "a chance to prove herself" or "be admirable". She was never owed some sort of cliché resolution just the same as Vegeta was never owed the "Frieza kill" as some rationalize. People project these cinematic character arc ideas and then get disappointed when they are not met except they were never promised in the first place.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

..Aren’t people always saying Goku is written as some sort of idiot with no depth? Why would anyone expect a serious approach for writing any other character in db?

Edit- didn't see Cursed Lemon's post until after I submitted mine Lol

No one is expecting a shonen to have amazingly written characters. We just would like to see women represented in a equal fashion to the men. It's not rocket science.

I know. And I meant that they are presented in an equal fashion. In the sense that they are utilized as convenient for the story, which is, not a very serious approach. That's my point. Nobody is taken seriously.

In DB every character who is not needed or can’t fit in the storyline or tone is swept aside just as Tenshinhan, Krillin, Gohan, and others. It has nothing to do with gender.
The sex “humor” in DB sure is sexist. And also that has nothing to do with the topic’s question though so I'm not going to dwell in something that’s already agreed on.
I’m talking about the stereotypical role about them “being just housewives” which is what the topic is about.

And well as I see it, the only one who is made explicit that is a full time housewife is Chi Chi.
The main character isn’t “just a housewife” just because she got a family. (The argument that her wish is somehow sexist is amongst the most absurd reaches I have read on this website but that's kinda outside of the topic.)
In my opinion Bulma having a family doesn't minimize or make worse her contribution as a character or what I like about her personality wise.
In general I assess a character (or person's) value based on who they are, not on what they do.

And Videl and 18, I go back to my point of why would you expect something else, or what else exactly ?
If characters like Piccolo or Gohan were at some point suggested as potential leads or prominent antagonist and then became completely irrelevant I don’t see why you’d think that characters that were never even hinted to be main characters would transcend what they were introduced for.
Masenko's claim that Videl’s treatment is sexist because she’s a love interest is... wtf? That was literally the purpose of her character. She was introduced as a complementary character for Gohan’s story, and there wasn't a hint of anything else.
There is a difference between saying “I would’ve LIKED to see more of that character” and saying “the writer is stupid or wrong because he didn’t create what I imagined”.

Women are not represented equally to men in Dragon Ball. Not in the slightest. Not until we see some old lady peeking and nose bleeding Vegeta using the bathroom unawares.

[Majin Buu]

A character development doesn’t have to be extended. For a character with a short arc it can be a one time change after a certain event.
Videl had her arc, it was a short one and she got her development. And she doesn’t need her story to progress further to validate that development.

The only development she had revolved entirely around Gohan. Realizing Gohan was the one that beat Cell and not her father, initially being distrusting of Gohan then becoming friends with him then developing feeling for him. She never really had her own story.

She simply had a bad attitude, then got hit with reality and changed. That's not disrespect to the character, it's the opposite.

We clearly don't see the character the same way. As far as I can tell you seem to be referring to her initial distrust of Gohan as that's the only behavior that could be interpreted as a "bad attitude" and "mean".

Lol no. You can be confident and humble. She was arrogant. Full of herself, entitled and pretty mean.

She's confident (over-confident at her worst), assertive, and competitive. "Arrogant", "full of herself", and "entitled" sound like negative spins on those traits.

I don't think she got beat out of a personality which is what is being argued.

And the change had little to do with the beating, I don't know why people obsess over this.

Lol, nice strawman. Respond to someone that actually made that argument. The beating was an excuse to sideline her, that was my argument.

So? I fail to see why would she need "a chance to prove herself" or "be admirable". She was never owed some sort of cliché resolution just the same as Vegeta was never owed the "Frieza kill" as some rationalize. People project these cinematic character arc ideas and then get disappointed when they are not met except they were never promised in the first place.

Comparing Videl to Vegeta here is a false equivalency. Vegeta is one of the main characters, and as such, gets plenty of opportunities to show off how badass he is as a fighter. Videl is a side character (and new character at the time) that was never going to have as much relevance so that being her final showing as a fighter makes it a particularly bad look given she's a female character and Dragon Ball's reputation for how it treats its female characters. Again, it comes off as an excuse to sideline her.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Women are not represented equally to men in Dragon Ball. Not in the slightest. Not until we see some old lady peeking and nose bleeding Vegeta using the bathroom unawares.

And? It's a series by a male written largely for males. Surprise surprise the vast majority of the characters are males. The most popular characters...are males.

Bulma was only ever a genius scientist, which she continues to be.

Chi-Chi outside of one fight has served other purpose than to give Goku a family.

Android 18 the most prominent female fighter still has fights. She fought in the Tournament of Power and the Moro arc and apparently in Super Hero also. Her relevance is no less particularly than other secondary Z Fighter Earthlings. She's no Gohan or Piccolo, she's only ever going to get so much to do.

Videl was only ever introduced to be a girlfriend to Gohan. She had no relevance fight wise except to establish the difference from normal humans and the main characters.

So what are they meant to do?

You can't just say they should introduce a new long standing female Z fighter character because they haven't introduced any males one in all of Super either.

[Anonymous Friend]

Women are not represented equally to men in Dragon Ball. Not in the slightest. Not until we see some old lady peeking and nose bleeding Vegeta using the bathroom unawares.

Is the old lady allowed to get decked for doing so?

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

Women are not represented equally to men in Dragon Ball. Not in the slightest. Not until we see some old lady peeking and nose bleeding Vegeta using the bathroom unawares.

Is the old lady allowed to get decked for doing so?

No. The woman is suppose to be invincible to all male offense.

[Anonymous Friend]

Women are not represented equally to men in Dragon Ball. Not in the slightest. Not until we see some old lady peeking and nose bleeding Vegeta using the bathroom unawares.

Is the old lady allowed to get decked for doing so?

No. The woman is suppose to be invincible to all male offense.

So, you're being sexist here. Gotcha.

[Vijay]

Truth to be said, enjoyed just how they were portrayed and given time space.

Decent & at times admirably thanks to Toriyama's likable & interesting characterization.

Thank god it didnt turn into nakama datebayoo kinda irritating female troop as say, Amane Misa frm dn, or Inou aka korosaki-kun & sasuke-kun aka Sakura

That bein said, would've liked lil more involvement frm Bulma, Videl or 18 in the shows final arc the Majin Arc. But thats bound to happen when you escalate power levels far beyond already establishes before...