Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Thani]

But his Ki blasts are drastically more powerful as well so how's that work?

Basically, IMO, it's this:

When using UI, Goku's moves get sharper, faster and hit in places where it hurts more, so he can hit beyond his weight class (base can tangle with SS-level opponents, SS can tangle with SS2, etc), but this is limited to physical strikes. We saw that Goku rarely use ki blasts when using UI in lower forms and, when they do, they aren't noted to be more powerful than they should.

The silver UI is a different transformation altogether where, besides granting the full scope of UI, it also increases Goku's ki manyfolds beyond even Blue. The same is true of UI-Sign-, which also functions as an increase in power.

It basically means that only Goku has those special states of being with UI and anyone else wouldn't have them.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

But his Ki blasts are drastically more powerful as well so how's that work?

Basically, IMO, it's this:

When using UI, Goku's moves get sharper, faster and hit in places where it hurts more, so he can hit beyond his weight class (base can tangle with SS-level opponents, SS can tangle with SS2, etc), but this is limited to physical strikes. We saw that Goku rarely use ki blasts when using UI in lower forms and, when they do, they aren't noted to be more powerful than they should.

The silver UI is a different transformation altogether where, besides granting the full scope of UI, it also increases Goku's ki manyfolds beyond even Blue. The same is true of UI-Sign-, which also functions as an increase in power.

It basically means that only Goku has those special states of being with UI and anyone else wouldn't have them.

A big misconception to add to this is that a lot of people think that the UI form is separate from the UI ability. As far as we can tell, this isn't true.

The form isn't some independent state, but rather seems to be the fullest expression of Ultra Instinct, at least the level that Goku's achived thus far. In essence, this is Goku being able to pull out the full potential of the Ultra Instinct, manifesting as a distinct form with UI Sign being the precursor state to it.

[ZombieVito]

Super Hero Spoilers:

Spoiler:

Seems like the people who think Goku and Vegeta grew many times stronger during the ToP were in fact wrong based on what Vegeta says about Jiren's power in comparison to theirs. The gap wasn't big.

[Berserker1921]

Super Hero Spoilers:

Spoiler:

Seems like the people who think Goku and Vegeta grew many times stronger during the ToP were in fact wrong based on what Vegeta says about Jiren's power in comparison to theirs. The gap wasn't big.

Spoiler:

Vegeta is either too egotistical to admit it.that Goku and Vegeta were nothing to him. Or this is another Toriyama retcon. We will see when official translations come out

[ZombieVito]

Super Hero Spoilers:

Spoiler:

Seems like the people who think Goku and Vegeta grew many times stronger during the ToP were in fact wrong based on what Vegeta says about Jiren's power in comparison to theirs. The gap wasn't big.

Spoiler:

Vegeta is either too egotistical to admit it.that Goku and Vegeta were nothing to him. Or this is another Toriyama retcon. We will see when official translations come out

Lol, never mind.

Base Gogeta being Blue tier still bloats everything to hell.

[Berserker1921]

Super Hero Spoilers:

Spoiler:

Seems like the people who think Goku and Vegeta grew many times stronger during the ToP were in fact wrong based on what Vegeta says about Jiren's power in comparison to theirs. The gap wasn't big.

Spoiler:

Vegeta is either too egotistical to admit it.that Goku and Vegeta were nothing to him. Or this is another Toriyama retcon. We will see when official translations come out

Lol, never mind.

Base Gogeta being Blue tier still bloats everything to hell.

It will prob be better explained in official translations or when the anime returns and it is retconned again. Sort of like when Beerus on used 70% of his power against GoD Goku. While in the anime he used like 7% haha.

[ZombieVito]

So the power scale seems to be this:

Major Spoilers:

Spoiler:

Gohan Blanco >> Cell Max > Orange Piccolo >> Gamma 1/Gamma 2 > Ultimate Gohan > Ultimate Piccolo.

[dragonball0900]

So the power scale seems to be this:

Major Spoilers:

Spoiler:

Gohan Blanco >> Cell Max > Orange Piccolo >> Gamma 1/Gamma 2 > Ultimate Gohan > Ultimate Piccolo.

Spoiler:

Were Gamma 1 and Gamma 2 really stronger than Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo? I read an spoiler post from someone in another site saying only SSJ Gohan and Base Piccolo were weaker than the Gammas, and that they surpass them with Ultimate (which is what forced Magenta to activiate Cell Max). Unless maybe that post was wrong.

Edit: Never mind, just watched a review of the movie about what really happened.

[Berserker1921]

Spoiler:

Do you think Final Gohan is stronger than the saiyan trio (Broly, Vegeta, and Goku)? If not, how strong do you think he is? If you compared him to another character.

[Berserker1921]

Super Hero Spoilers:

Spoiler:

Seems like the people who think Goku and Vegeta grew many times stronger during the ToP were in fact wrong based on what Vegeta says about Jiren's power in comparison to theirs. The gap wasn't big.

Spoiler:

I am sorry. I miss read what you wrote. You saying that the saiyans didn’t grow that much after TOP? Or did you think Vegeta was comparing his current power to top jiren?

[ZombieVito]

Spoiler:

I am sorry. I miss read what you wrote. You saying that the saiyans didn’t grow that much after TOP? Or did you think Vegeta was comparing his current power to top jiren?

Spoiler:

Vegeta says that the gap between him, Goku and Jiren wasn't big during the ToP.

Since base Gogeta being SSB tier exists then Vegeta must have been talking about ToP UI and SSBE. We shall see when the dialogue comes out.

About your other question. We can't possibly know at the time since we don't know if Cell Max is compared to other people like Jiren. One thing we do know now is the top 5 mortals of universe 7. Goku, Vegeta, Broly, Gohan and Piccolo.

[Nevaeh]

Spoiler:

at the gap between Jiren and Goku/Vegeta not being big. That shit was grand canyon sized in the anime. Even in the manga, it was decently big

[Xeno Goku Black]

Apparently Gohan comments that Goku and Vegeta couldn't handle Cell?

[SupremeKai25]

So, since the new revelations from the movie confirm that

Spoiler:

the gap between Jiren and the Saiyans in the ToP wasn't that big,

this recontextualizes everything we know about how Fused Zamasu and Vegito Blue compare to the ToP power levels. This means that Jiren wasn't that much stronger than them after all, if he was even stronger at all (I'd imagine that fusing could possibly bridge that small gap). The ultimate Canon has spoken.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Still, I’m very surprised the animated canon still stuck to the scaling of Broly and Jiren being Hakaishin level. Surprised that beerus is actually freaked out by Broly.

Is anyone weirded out by Jiren’s retcon? The only reason he fights on a hakaishin level spectrum is because of his flawless focus and not his Raw power, which Vegeta remarks wasn’t much higher than them? It is literally his version of UI without it being UI (credit you Olk for that statement). I really would have loved to see this version of Jiren instead of just stupidly retconning what we saw in the tournament.

[Skar]

It would make sense the gap wouldn't be as wide in Toriyama's continuity since he only has regular Blue then UI while the manga and anime had a few forms in between. I'm not sure what that means for the fusions though since base Gogeta was above the individual Blues but still needed Blue to defeated Broly. Maybe that confirms Broly is stronger than Jiren but too wild to use his full power efficiently.

[Kenneth La Torre]

It would make sense the gap wouldn't be as wide in Toriyama's continuity since he only has regular Blue then UI while the manga and anime had a few forms in between. I'm not sure what that means for the fusions though since base Gogeta was above the individual Blues but still needed Blue to defeated Broly. Maybe that confirms Broly is stronger than Jiren but too wild to use his full power efficiently.

They treat Broly’s rage like if he were a god of destruction. So i think I’m terms of pure power, he really is that strong. Also, beerus freaks out when he wakes up and sees him. take that as you will.

[SupremeKai25]

Still, I’m very surprised the animated canon still stuck to the scaling of Broly and Jiren being Hakaishin level. Surprised that beerus is actually freaked out by Broly.

Is anyone weirded out by Jiren’s retcon? The only reason he fights on a hakaishin level spectrum is because of his flawless focus and not his Raw power, which Vegeta remarks wasn’t much higher than them? It is literally his version of UI without it being UI (credit you Olk for that statement). I really would have loved to see this version of Jiren instead of just stupidly retconning what we saw in the tournament.

No it's not surprising at all, nor is it a retcon. Jiren's raw power capped at Ultra Instinct Omen Goku, after that he was pummelled by Mastered Ultra Instinct. Like Goku, he needed to focus and attain his own Limit-breaking form. Back when the episode aired, people noticed that Jiren's Limit-breaking aura was very similar to Ultra Instinct aura, just recoloured red. Now we know that it was intentional.

With these new revelations, we simply have ultimate confirmation that the Potara boost was much stronger than we thought. Goku and Vegeta separated were not THAT much weaker than Jiren, so fused the gap would definitely be closed. Potara boost fusion is exponentially high.

And so obviously what this means is that the fused beings, so Vegito, Fused Zamasu, Kefla, and Gogeta, move up exponentially in the power ladder. Since the gap between Goku and Vegeta individually and Jiren wasn't that big. It also explains how Android 17 completely and utterly ambushed Jiren as he was using his full power.

[Xeno Goku Black]

The gap between Jiren and Vegeta was absolutely enormous regardless of what the movie says. Goku and Vegeta unleashed a Kamehameha and Final Flash against him and he didn't have a mark on him.

Not only was Jiren not using his Super Full Power form, he hadn't even gone to 100% yet.

Saying Jiren wasn't that much stronger than Vegeta is saying Ultra Instinct Goku isn't that much stronger than Kaio-ken X20 Goku.

[Kenneth La Torre]

People are not taking this very well it seems.

Doesn’t help that whis confirms it instantly afterwards.