Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Skar]

They treat Broly’s rage like if he were a god of destruction. So i think I’m terms of pure power, he really is that strong. Also, beerus freaks out when he wakes up and sees him. take that as you will.

Nice so those statement about Broly being compared to Beerus might be true then .

[SupremeKai25]

The gap between Jiren and Vegeta was absolutely enormous regardless of what the movie says. Goku and Vegeta unleashed a Kamehameha and Final Flash against him and he didn't have a mark on him.

Not only was Jiren not using his Super Full Power form, he hadn't even gone to 100% yet.

Saying Jiren wasn't that much stronger than Vegeta is saying Ultra Instinct Goku isn't that much stronger than Kaio-ken X20 Goku.

Statements > Isolated feats

These isolated feats have no meaning and are irrelevant. They are there just to spice things up and make the episode entertaining. It's like when BASE Goku Black speed-blitzed SSB Vegeta (when he got close to him and touched his chin), smiled as he was effortlessly tanking all of Vegeta's punches, and then seriously hurt him with a single kick to the guts. But then, later on, Vegeta in SSB is able to temporarily overpower SSR Black.

In the end, most feats have no meaning and are just outliers. They exist because the writers want to extend the fights and make them entertaining. All that matters are the statements, and the most recent and updated statement is indeed that, as per Vegeta's own admission, the gap between him and Jiren wasn't particularly big. Jiren was stomping them simply because, unlike Saiyans, he fought with a calm and collected mind and focus.

And let us not forget how Android 17 did this to Full Power Jiren, the isolated feats aren't always in Jiren's favour either:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO0rJvjSaRI


In the end, statements are the only reliable and consistent evidence.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I hope people don’t misinterpret the statement. The movie doesn’t say that Jiren could have been beaten if they were just more powerful, it states that Jiren seemed so overwhelming because of the way uses his Ki, while his power Level not being much higher than theirs, he still operates at much higher level.

The same excuse was used that Jiren gave in the manga when he went against Vegeta.

[Nevaeh]

Seems like in movie land, Goku and Vegeta cap out at SSB. Gohan might legit be the strongest and it's not close either

[Kenneth La Torre]

Seems like in movie land, Goku and Vegeta cap out at SSB. Gohan might legit be the strongest and it's not close either

Nothing wrong with Gohan being stronger than Blue. In fact, I think that’s an understatement. He one shots. Tho to be generous, cell max caps at Goku and Vegeta level. So they are still super strong.

[Nevaeh]

Seems like in movie land, Goku and Vegeta cap out at SSB. Gohan might legit be the strongest and it's not close either

Nothing wrong with Gohan being stronger than Blue. In fact, I think that’s an understatement. He one shots. Tho to be generous, cell max caps at Goku and Vegeta level. So they are still super strong.

Never said there was. I just find it amusing that they went full Cell saga where Gohan is miles stronger than everybody else

[Kenneth La Torre]

Seems like in movie land, Goku and Vegeta cap out at SSB. Gohan might legit be the strongest and it's not close either

Nothing wrong with Gohan being stronger than Blue. In fact, I think that’s an understatement. He one shots. Tho to be generous, cell max caps at Goku and Vegeta level. So they are still super strong.

Never said there was. I just find it amusing that they went full Cell saga where Gohan is miles stronger than everybody else

Yeah, but i still think it was done cheaply. In more ways than one. The form came out of nowhere and there wasn’t an explanation. And I’m not a fan of Gohan looking like he belongs in a vampire franchise.

[Xeno Goku Black]

In the end, statements are the only reliable and consistent evidence.

Reliable statements...the same reliable statements like how Battle of Gods, not once but twice stated the wrong ages for Bulma and Mai?

How Resurrection F said Shenron can grant two wishes and not three? I suppose Frieza statement of having a power level of 1.3 million upon training must therefore change everything that was then stated in the manga right?

Or Broly which began 41 years ago...then moved forward 5 years to when Goku was sent off which was shown to be in Age 737....which would make the Broly movie largely set in Age 773? Somehow an entire year before the Buu Saga.

No movie or not. Written by Toriyama or not. They still have blatant and obvious mistakes and inconsistencies. Vegeta was not anywhere remotely close to Jiren's power in either the anime or the manga regardless of how you try to spin it.

[Nevaeh]

Gamma 1 and 2 being Goku/Vegeta level means that Ultimate Gohan = SSB level. Just like in the anime. Huh

[SupremeKai25]

In the end, statements are the only reliable and consistent evidence.

Reliable statements...the same reliable statements like how Battle of Gods, not once but twice stated the wrong ages for Bulma and Mai?

How Resurrection F said Shenron can grant two wishes and not three? I suppose Frieza statement of having a power level of 1.3 million upon training must therefore change everything that was then stated in the manga right?

Or Broly which began 41 years ago...then moved forward 5 years to when Goku was sent off which was shown to be in Age 737....which would make the Broly movie largely set in Age 773? Somehow an entire year before the Buu Saga.

No movie or not. Written by Toriyama or not. They still have blatant and obvious mistakes and inconsistencies. Vegeta was not anywhere remotely close to Jiren's power in either the anime or the manga regardless of how you try to spin it.

If Bulma's age was stated to be X and BoG said her age was Y, that would be a retcon, No? What's so strange or surprising about that? Retcons happen all the time, that's no reason to ignore the most recent statement.

Likewise, it doesn't matter how strong Jiren looked in the ToP arc, in the end Toriyama stated that he wasn't that much stronger than the Saiyans, and that he mostly relied on his mental focus.

In the end, some in the fandom thought Jiren was so "almighty" simply because of that statement from Shin in 109, where he said that Jiren felt "different" than anyone else or something like that. But that statement was very ambiguous and most likely referred to Jiren's true hidden depth of power (Limit-breaking form), some in the fandom simply misinterpreted it and thought it means Suppressed Jiren > Fused Zamasu/Vegito, but in the end that was never the case. Jiren's strength was blown out of proportions by some people and this new movie rectified that.

Jiren is still stronger than Goku and Vegeta individually. However, now we know that he wasn't MUCH stronger than them. And so people can no longer say that he oneshots Fused Zamasu or defeats Vegito Blue (because the gap between Jiren and unfused Saiyans isn't that big). He still has incredible mental focus and is a very calm fighter, but in terms of raw power, he is not this unbeatable untouchable juggernaut anymore.

[ZombieVito]

Gamma 1 and 2 being Goku/Vegeta level means that Ultimate Gohan = SSB level. Just like in the anime. Huh

Well the Gammas are stated to be the strongest androids yet so they are stronger than 17 so they are indeed high Blue tier.

I guess this movie does confirm Broly > Jiren once and for all. Beerus is uneasy having him around. SSB Gogeta > Beerus?

[Xeno Goku Black]

If Bulma's age was stated to be X and BoG said her age was Y, that would be a retcon, No?

No, it would be a mistake which it is. If Bulma was 38 during Battle of Gods then that makes her older than Goku going by the years given in that movie. That's not a retcon, that's a mistake by someone who was never about to remember.

Broly placing the current events a year before Buu isn't a retcon. It is a mistake.

Likewise, it doesn't matter how strong Jiren looked in the ToP arc, in the end Toriyama stated that he wasn't that much stronger than the Saiyans, and that he mostly relied on his mental focus.

And he is free to say that but Jiren was enormously more powerful than Vegeta. It had nothing to do with his mental state. Nothing Vegeta could have done would have affected him in the least even when he wasn't close to full power.

Again if Jiren isn't much stronger than Vegeta then Ultra Instinct isn't much more powerful than Kaio-ken and we known that isn't true.

[Xeno Goku Black]

I guess this movie does confirm Broly > Jiren once and for all. Beerus is uneasy having him around. SSB Gogeta > Beerus?

Broly is unstable and could nuke his planet at any time. Of course he'd be uneasy.

[ZombieVito]

Broly is unstable and could nuke his planet at any time. Of course he'd be uneasy.

But Whis can rewind time.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Broly is unstable and could nuke his planet at any time. Of course he'd be uneasy.

But Whis can rewind time.

Yeah but only every now then. No good if he blows it up, Whis reverses it and then Broly blows it up again.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah but only every now then. No good if he blows it up, Whis reverses it and then Broly blows it up again.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So I guess AT never abandoned the 6/10/15 scale? If SSJB Goku and Vegeta weren’t much weaker than Jiren, yet Jiren had Hakaishin tier power…

In the end, statements are the only reliable and consistent evidence.

Not that good either when they’re often vague and open to interpretation, or even flat out contradictory. Characters can often be mistaken, lying, using euphemisms… and it doesn’t help in the anime which has multiple writers.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Yeah but only every now then. No good if he blows it up, Whis reverses it and then Broly blows it up again.

If he was gonna do that he may as well just not be on the planet to begin with. Reverse time or not who would want someone around who could just destroy your home on a strop?

[Koitsukai]

So, now we have a third Jiren lol. Manga Jiren that can outlast UI, Anime Jiren that loses to UI, and Movie Jiren that is slightly above SSB.

Now I wonder how Movie UI is going to be, if it ever shows up.

[Xeno Goku Black]

So how do we scale this to the rest of the series now?

Done have to completely ignore the manga because even though the movie is chronologically set afterwards it was made at the same time so doesn't acknowledge it?

There's a Ultimate Gohan and an Ultimate Piccolo, I assume on the same level?

Gamma 1 and 2 are on the same level as that? And they compare to Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta?

So all six characters are about the same? Do we say they're all above Saganbo or do we just ignore that outright but then it's just inconsistent?

Orange Piccolo is strong enough to one shot Gamma 2. Cell Max is stronger, it's not believed Goku or Vegeta could defeat him? As Super Saiyan Blue or as Ultra Instinct? Cell above Gas?

White Gohan the strongest mortal in the series? Above Ultra Instinct?

It's gonna make it very confusing.