Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Jiren The Alpha]

So, now we have a third Jiren lol. Manga Jiren that can outlast UI, Anime Jiren that loses to UI, and Movie Jiren that is slightly above SSB.

Now I wonder how Movie UI is going to be, if it ever shows up.

Manga and anime Jiren did the same thing, outlasting UI Goku, in the anime Goku was about to finish him off but his UI was done and Jiren was able to get up and had enough enegry to "eliminate" Goku. This is just Toriyama saying "Jiren didn't dominate Goku and Vegeta because he was stronger, but because he was a better fighter" I'm guessing Toriyama's message is that it's better to be a smart fighter then a strong one.

[Hugo Boss]

So, I guess we will openly discuss the spoilers as everyone is pretty much not covering them up?

By the way, MShadows and Cipher wrote very detailed summaries for anyone who is looking for any specific reference for strength discussions.

After reading everything concerning strength comparisons, I would just add that you should probably consider the movie implications exclusive to Toriyama’s perspective, as they don’t jive well with what Toei and Toyotaro established in their own continuities.

My personal take:

Spoiler:

Stronger-than-Anyone-Gohan > Broly > Beerus > Cell Max > Orange Piccolo > Jiren > Goku/Vegeta/Gamma # 1/Gamma #2/Ultimate Gohan/Ultimate Piccolo

[Block88]

Supreme has a point people took Shin Line out of proportion

And I feel people are taking Vegeta line too seriously he's still a relevant Benchmark next too Beerus and Broly

[TheSaiyanGod]

The problem is that the movie continuity seems to ignore any transformation above Super Saiyan Blue. Not even Ultra Instinct is mentioned, nor is it implied that Goku can use it at will. So it looks like they are still capped at Blue level here.

And yet we have Gohan wondering if Goku and Vegeta would be able to defeat Cell Max. That way, it's hard to scale Gohan and Piccolo's new forms to UI / UE if Super Saiyan Blue is still that big of a deal

At the very least they are above SSB Goku / Vegeta, but anything else seems ambiguous

[Hugo Boss]

Supreme has a point people took Shin Line out of proportion

And I feel people are taking Vegeta line too seriously he's still a relevant Benchmark next too Beerus and Broly

Actually, you are right.

Spoiler:

Goku lumps Jiren and Broly along with the Gods of Destruction in terms of overall performance, so even if Jiren is not so much more powerful than Goku and Vegeta in the traditional sense, his energy manipulation makes him fight on par or above a God of Destruction. Broly in another hand may be stronger than Beerus, but he needs refinement, so maybe he can be defeated by Jiren or by a God of Destruction.

[ZombieVito]

I'm starting to think that the novel was indeed correct and SS Broly > Jiren.

Jiren only really needs to be stronger than SS2 Kefla, who was implied to be around 40 times stronger than SSB Goku. 50 times stronger than SSB should be enough.

I guess since Gogeta came into existence with Goku already having UI, he received a much larger fusion boost than Vegetto did back in the Zamasu arc. Maybe Gogeta didn't even need to use SSB against Broly. Who knows really.

[Hugo Boss]

Complementing my tier list, if we dive a little more on overall performance department and use a bit of speculation, I would say the rankings would be something like this:

Spoiler:

Angels > Ultra Gohan/Ultra Goku/Ultra Vegeta > Broly/Jiren/Gods of Destruction > Orange Piccolo > everyone else

I’m considering “everyone else” here after Cell Max was defeated, and obviously excluding manga and anime exclusive content.

[Xeno Goku Black]

I'll ask this again as it got last pages and I'm really curious about this.

So how do we scale this to the rest of the series now?

Done have to completely ignore the manga because even though the movie is chronologically set afterwards it was made at the same time so doesn't acknowledge it?

There's a Ultimate Gohan and an Ultimate Piccolo, I assume on the same level?

Gamma 1 and 2 are on the same level as that? And they compare to Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta?

So all six characters are about the same? Do we say they're all above Saganbo or do we just ignore that outright but then it's just inconsistent?

Orange Piccolo is strong enough to one shot Gamma 2. Cell Max is stronger, it's not believed Goku or Vegeta could defeat him? As Super Saiyan Blue or as Ultra Instinct? Cell above Gas?

White Gohan the strongest mortal in the series? Above Ultra Instinct?

It's gonna make it very confusing.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Jiren only really needs to be stronger than SS2 Kefla, who was implied to be around 40 times stronger than SSB Goku. 50 times stronger than SSB should be enough.

You think Jiren is only a 25% stronger than Kefla?

Jiren was already stronger than Kefla as is while suppressed, then he goes 100%, then he goes further still by overpowering Ultra Instinct who previously made him look weak as hell.

[Hugo Boss]

I'll ask this again as it got last pages and I'm really curious about this.

I addressed all your questions in my last posts, right above on this very page. I even linked MShadows and Cipher’s summaries if you have any doubt. We simply don’t scale this to the rest of the series, obvious contradictions etcetera etcetera.

[ZombieVito]

You think Jiren is only a 25% stronger than Kefla?

Jiren was already stronger than Kefla as is while suppressed, then he goes 100%, then he goes further still by overpowering Ultra Instinct who previously made him look weak as hell.

Well maybe 40 times is a little high for SS2 Kefla.

We do know thanks to the original manga that rivaling someone can be done if you are 80% of the stronger fighter (Raditz vs Saibaimen) so SS Kefla can be 16 times stronger than SSB Goku (She rivaled the Genkidama) and SS2 Kefla can be 32 times stronger.

Something like this looks good to me:

UI Goku: 50
LB Jiren: 50
Jiren: 45
3rd UIO Goku: 40
SSBE Vegeta: 36
GoD Toppo: 34
SS2 Kefla: 32
2nd UIO Goku: 32
SSB Vegetto: 30
1st UIO Goku: 24
Fused Zamasu: 24
SSBE Vegeta: 20
SSB KKx20 Goku: 20
SS Kefla: 16

[Sora Saiyan]

Likewise, it doesn't matter how strong Jiren looked in the ToP arc, in the end Toriyama stated that he wasn't that much stronger than the Saiyans, and that he mostly relied on his mental focus.

In the end, some in the fandom thought Jiren was so "almighty" simply because of that statement from Shin in 109, where he said that Jiren felt "different" than anyone else or something like that. But that statement was very ambiguous and most likely referred to Jiren's true hidden depth of power (Limit-breaking form), some in the fandom simply misinterpreted it and thought it means Suppressed Jiren > Fused Zamasu/Vegito, but in the end that was never the case. Jiren's strength was blown out of proportions by some people and this new movie rectified that.

Jiren is still stronger than Goku and Vegeta individually. However, now we know that he wasn't MUCH stronger than them. And so people can no longer say that he oneshots Fused Zamasu or defeats Vegito Blue (because the gap between Jiren and unfused Saiyans isn't that big). He still has incredible mental focus and is a very calm fighter, but in terms of raw power, he is not this unbeatable untouchable juggernaut anymore.

It seems the continuities have got to split now. In Toriyamas original draft Fused Zamasu was weaker than 2 SSJBs. Now we find out that for Toriyama, Jiren is only a bit stronger than SSJB. So in Toriyamas version Zamasu and Jiren are relatively close in raw power, but Jiren punches a couple tiers above his weight due to how finelt tuned he is as a warrior, and Zamasu has his immortality. They're both definitely weaker than Blue Vegetto however.

In the manga Fused Zamasu is about equal with a MSSJB, but he has the advantage of being immortal. He's a joke compared to regular blue Vegetto. Jiren is stronger than SSJBE, but it's hard to know how much stronger SSJBE is over regular SSJB in the manga (maybe 2x?). Jiren does get damaged by SSJBE, so Jiren may not be a lot stronger than SSJBE in the manga after all, thus allowing Vegetas statement from this movie to fit with this form.. its a bit of a mess. Jiren has no chance against Vegetto though, but he's comfortably ahead of MSSJB imo.

The anime is an entirely different animal. Here corrupted Zamasu is clearly much stronger than two SSJBs and fights head to head with Blue Vegetto. In the same breath Jiren is also a completely different animal and can ragdoll KKX20 Goku, he can deflect the Genki Dama without breaking a sweat even though the one pushing it was KKx20 SSJB. This is crazy since Pure buu, who was SSJ3 tier, was completely overpowered by just regular SSJ pushing it at him. Fatigued base Goku also over powered Freeza with it. Its crazy Jiren could push it back full stop. How fucking strong was he.
We have statements from the anime talking about how ridiculous Jiren is compared to everybody else, and later we have limit breaker Jiren who is on an entirely different level from standard Jiren.
In the anime continuity I would put Jiren above everybody else quite comfortably, he's an absolute monster.

So yeah, three different continuities that all do their own thing to varying degrees. Toriyamas is of course the most accurate, since, well hes what the rest are meant to be based off, then I'd say the manga follows Toriyamas drafts more closely than the anime with the information and showings we've had. Either way there's still three different continuities at this point since the manga still differs plenty from Toriyamas original plans.

[larzooma]

Spoiler:

I'll ask this again as it got last pages and I'm really curious about this.

So how do we scale this to the rest of the series now?

Done have to completely ignore the manga because even though the movie is chronologically set afterwards it was made at the same time so doesn't acknowledge it?

There's a Ultimate Gohan and an Ultimate Piccolo, I assume on the same level?

Gamma 1 and 2 are on the same level as that? And they compare to Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta?

So all six characters are about the same? Do we say they're all above Saganbo or do we just ignore that outright but then it's just inconsistent?

Orange Piccolo is strong enough to one shot Gamma 2. Cell Max is stronger, it's not believed Goku or Vegeta could defeat him? As Super Saiyan Blue or as Ultra Instinct? Cell above Gas?

White Gohan the strongest mortal in the series? Above Ultra Instinct?

It's gonna make it very confusing.

I'd probably place Goku and Vegeta in their Ultra forms at the top still. Possibly alongside Final Gohan. Followed by Orange Piccolo. Assuming Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo are above standard SSJB or even equal to with Gamma 1 and 2 being at or most likely above that level, Orange Piccolo completely outclassing him by tanking that damage and one shotting 2, then he's most likely somewhere between SSJB Beyond Vegeta/SSJ Blue x20 kk and Ultra forms. Final is above Orange I'd say. All 4 outclass eveyone else though besidea Broly maybe.

[Xeno Goku Black]

We simply don’t scale this to the rest of the series, obvious contradictions etcetera etcetera.

So we now have one chronological continuity that's split in two where we can't cross one over with the other?

A movie that's meant to take place after Granolah but can't take him or anything involving him into account.

It's like the Super and GT split again.

Well maybe 40 times is a little high for SS2 Kefla.

If anything it's too low. You have Kaioken x20 Goku at 20 but Super Saiyan Kefla at 16 when the latter was more powerful.

[ZombieVito]

If anything it's too low. You have Kaioken x20 Goku at 20 but Super Saiyan Kefla at 16 when the latter was more powerful.

She was only stated to rival the Genkidama.

[Xeno Goku Black]

She was only stated to rival the Genkidama.

Yeah and the Genkidama was more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken x20 Goku.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah and the Genkidama was more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken x20 Goku.

Maybe, maybe not. It was stated nowhere if the Genkidama was stronger.

But if it bothers you that much then the Genkidama can be a 21 and SS Kefla a 17.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Maybe, maybe not. It was stated nowhere if the Genkidama was stronger.

Does it need to be said?

Kaioken x20 Goku got plastered with ease. Then after that Goku decided to bust out his ultimate move. If the Genkidama wasn't more powerful then it was redundant using it. It's just like how the Genkidama was vastly more powerful than the Kaioken x20 against Frieza. Its was the trump card.

Plus when Goku first went Ultra Instinct and they saw him holding his own against Jiren they initially wondered if it was because he'd absorbed its power.

[omaro34]

Saonel and Pirina fused with Orange Piccolo would be one strong Namekian.

[Miracles]

I didn't see the movie yet but read Toriyama's quote about Gohan actually being the strongest. Or so said in his story.
Make sure to put Gohan above all mortals for the moment.