Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

[Xeogran]

The uglyness or simplicity of these new forms is the way Toriyama has found since BoG to entertain himself with the idea and to make fun of everyone who wants more and more transformations.

I'm not so sure he's doing it with this mindset, considering lots of people like the new transformations. And even the official staff hypes them up and so on.

It's his classic laziness, not making fun of his fanbase.

[Sora Saiyan]

Like by this point, Jiren would be a speck if we go by the manga, yet he’s still used as a strength reference by Vegeta.

Jiren isn't used as a simple strength reference from what we've been told, he's been mentioned to be something they should strive for because he wasn't much stronger than Goku or Vegeta during the ToP yet he still felt so overwhelming. He was a superbly tuned machine, Goku and Vegeta arent like that yet. It seems that learning to be more like Jiren will make them capable of punching a couple of tiers above their weight despite not increasing their actual powerlevel.
How he compares to Goku and Vegeta currently is not mentioned I believe, and I can't help but shake the feeling they're being ambiguous as to not entirely contradict the manga due to the movie being made prior to the end of the Moro arc.
We don't even see Goku and Vegeta transform which I find odd, but allows them to not step on the mangas toes.

Stronger compared to what, Blue or UI? Because no matter if you look at the anime or the manga, UI was the only thing that stood up to Jiren.

And using TOP Jiren is odd if you take the manga where Vegeta tells Granolah that he isn’t hot crap despite being ‘the star in the universe’ because he was a noob in terms of fighting. So Vegeta knows about hitting above your weight with skill in the manga because he did it against Granolah

It'd be SSJBE since that caused Jiren to bleed once he hit him. Showing that he was no longer an indomitable tank. Not like I care since there's now clearly 3 different continuities anyway. Toiryamas where Merged Zamasu is fodder to Vegetto, and weaker than two SSJBs, and Jiren isn't much above regular SSJB (both Goku and Vegeta). The manga where MSSJB is as strong as Merged Zamasu, and Zamasu is fodder to Vegetto. Jiren isn't much stronger than SSJBE (but this doesn't really work for Vegetas statement from Super Hero since he states that both him and Goku weren't far off Jiren, not that only one was close to him). Then there's the anime, where Merged Zamasu has a corrupted form which is as strong as Bluegetto, and Jiren is an absolute monster who fodderises KKx20 Blue Goku, and can deflect the genki dama by flexing at KKX20 Blueku. (Pure Buu was overpowered by regular old SSJ pushing it at him, and Freeza was overpowered by massively fatigued base Goku doing the same.. this feat is monstrous). Ultra instinct in the anime is fucking godly too, Jiren at full power is a speck to it, it takes a limit breaking form to close the gap.

Also in reply to you mentioning Vegeta hitting above his weight class against Granolah, its true he can and did against him. Vegeta is a trained warrior after all, but even a well trained Vegeta pales in comparison to how highly refined Jiren is. Vegeta is basically Granolah in this situation and Jiren is Vegeta in that example, he's just that more more highly tuned that Vegeta.

[HeroR]

Jiren isn't used as a simple strength reference from what we've been told, he's been mentioned to be something they should strive for because he wasn't much stronger than Goku or Vegeta during the ToP yet he still felt so overwhelming. He was a superbly tuned machine, Goku and Vegeta arent like that yet. It seems that learning to be more like Jiren will make them capable of punching a couple of tiers above their weight despite not increasing their actual powerlevel.
How he compares to Goku and Vegeta currently is not mentioned I believe, and I can't help but shake the feeling they're being ambiguous as to not entirely contradict the manga due to the movie being made prior to the end of the Moro arc.
We don't even see Goku and Vegeta transform which I find odd, but allows them to not step on the mangas toes.

Stronger compared to what, Blue or UI? Because no matter if you look at the anime or the manga, UI was the only thing that stood up to Jiren.

And using TOP Jiren is odd if you take the manga where Vegeta tells Granolah that he isn’t hot crap despite being ‘the star in the universe’ because he was a noob in terms of fighting. So Vegeta knows about hitting above your weight with skill in the manga because he did it against Granolah

It'd be SSJBE since that caused Jiren to bleed once he hit him. Showing that he was no longer an indomitable tank. Not like I care since there's now clearly 3 different continuities anyway. Toiryamas where Merged Zamasu is fodder to Vegetto, and weaker than two SSJBs, and Jiren isn't much above regular SSJB (both Goku and Vegeta). The manga where MSSJB is as strong as Merged Zamasu, and Zamasu is fodder to Vegetto. Jiren isn't much stronger than SSJBE (but this doesn't really work for Vegetas statement from Super Hero since he states that both him and Goku weren't far off Jiren, not that only one was close to him). Then there's the anime, where Merged Zamasu has a corrupted form which is as strong as Bluegetto, and Jiren is an absolute monster who fodderises KKx20 Blue Goku, and can deflect the genki dama by flexing at KKX20 Blueku. (Pure Buu was overpowered by regular old SSJ pushing it at him, and Freeza was overpowered by massively fatigued base Goku doing the same.. this feat is monstrous). Ultra instinct in the anime is fucking godly too, Jiren at full power is a speck to it, it takes a limit breaking form to close the gap.

Also in reply to you mentioning Vegeta hitting above his weight class against Granolah, its true he can and did against him. Vegeta is a trained warrior after all, but even a well trained Vegeta pales in comparison to how highly refined Jiren is. Vegeta is basically Granolah in this situation and Jiren is Vegeta in that example, he's just that more more highly tuned that Vegeta.

The extended Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan forms don't exists in Toriyama's script. So you can't say it's SSBE.

In Toriyama's original script Vegito didn't exists at all. He was added by Toyo's suggesting. And saying Jiren isn't much above regular Blue doesn't match either because then why did Goku need UI. And manga Jiren tanked SSBE Vegeta's punches and punched Goku out of UI.

That isn't my point. My point is that Vegeta treats Jiren having no wasteful movement made him punch above his class, which isn't new when he did it himself. So why did it take years for him to figure that out.

[Kataphrut]

SSBE is more of a counterpart to Blue Kaioken than UI. The writers even said they’re about the same in power. That and meditating to get stronger is as old as dirt in Dragon Ball. Goku did while training with Kami.

It's in both versions though unlike Blue Kaioken. It's also treated as a significant development for Vegeta with it being the start of his bid to stop following in Goku's footsteps and achieve his own strength.

And yeah, meditating is pretty old school. Piccolo does it all the time and even Freeza did it in hell to power up his golden form. Way back when the ToP was airing I thought that with that, plus the fact that Jiren was always doing it, mental training was going to have some significant payoff in the series. It didn't and I forgot all about it, so this movie bringing it back was a nice surprise.

The idea of SSBE is in both versions, however, SSBE in the manga looks nothing like the anime and we know the anime staff were the ones to create it first and say it’s only as strong as Blue Kaioken. It’s a step, but was never treated as his answer to UI. The anime made that clear by booted Vegeta out before Goku got UI for the third time.

My point was ever since Goku got UI they've been handing out new forms and powerups to Vegeta to compensate and none of them have stuck because UI was a genuine cultural reset rivaling the original Super Saiyan transformation while all of Vegeta's new powerups are things we either forgot about the moment they happened or wish we could.

So for the movie to ignore all that and just say he needs to meditate is practically an acknowledgment of that.

[HeroR]

It's in both versions though unlike Blue Kaioken. It's also treated as a significant development for Vegeta with it being the start of his bid to stop following in Goku's footsteps and achieve his own strength.

And yeah, meditating is pretty old school. Piccolo does it all the time and even Freeza did it in hell to power up his golden form. Way back when the ToP was airing I thought that with that, plus the fact that Jiren was always doing it, mental training was going to have some significant payoff in the series. It didn't and I forgot all about it, so this movie bringing it back was a nice surprise.

The idea of SSBE is in both versions, however, SSBE in the manga looks nothing like the anime and we know the anime staff were the ones to create it first and say it’s only as strong as Blue Kaioken. It’s a step, but was never treated as his answer to UI. The anime made that clear by booted Vegeta out before Goku got UI for the third time.

My point was ever since Goku got UI they've been handing out new forms and powerups to Vegeta to compensate and none of them have stuck because UI was a genuine cultural reset rivaling the original Super Saiyan transformation while all of Vegeta's new powerups are things we either forgot about the moment they happened or wish we could.

So for the movie to ignore all that and just say he needs to meditate is practically an acknowledgment of that.

Only Toyo really since the anime only gave him SSBE before ending and Heroes gave him an updated version of SSBE. That and the movie was written before Moro, so whatever Toyo gave him on the manga was never going to be a factor because those ideas didn’t exist.

[Sora Saiyan]

It'd be SSJBE since that caused Jiren to bleed once he hit him. Showing that he was no longer an indomitable tank. Not like I care since there's now clearly 3 different continuities anyway. Toiryamas where Merged Zamasu is fodder to Vegetto, and weaker than two SSJBs, and Jiren isn't much above regular SSJB (both Goku and Vegeta). The manga where MSSJB is as strong as Merged Zamasu, and Zamasu is fodder to Vegetto. Jiren isn't much stronger than SSJBE (but this doesn't really work for Vegetas statement from Super Hero since he states that both him and Goku weren't far off Jiren, not that only one was close to him). Then there's the anime, where Merged Zamasu has a corrupted form which is as strong as Bluegetto, and Jiren is an absolute monster who fodderises KKx20 Blue Goku, and can deflect the genki dama by flexing at KKX20 Blueku. (Pure Buu was overpowered by regular old SSJ pushing it at him, and Freeza was overpowered by massively fatigued base Goku doing the same.. this feat is monstrous). Ultra instinct in the anime is fucking godly too, Jiren at full power is a speck to it, it takes a limit breaking form to close the gap.

Also in reply to you mentioning Vegeta hitting above his weight class against Granolah, its true he can and did against him. Vegeta is a trained warrior after all, but even a well trained Vegeta pales in comparison to how highly refined Jiren is. Vegeta is basically Granolah in this situation and Jiren is Vegeta in that example, he's just that more more highly tuned that Vegeta.

The extended Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan forms don't exists in Toriyama's script. So you can't say it's SSBE.

In Toriyama's original script Vegito didn't exists at all. He was added by Toyo's suggesting. And saying Jiren isn't much above regular Blue doesn't match either because then why did Goku need UI. And manga Jiren tanked SSBE Vegeta's punches and punched Goku out of UI.

That isn't my point. My point is that Vegeta treats Jiren having no wasteful movement made him punch above his class, which isn't new when he did it himself. So why did it take years for him to figure that out.

Hence my point on three different continuities now, and Vegetto was put in due to Toyos reccomendation, but even so Toriyama accepted it and now it's something that happens in all versions.

The main point here is Vegeta mentions both him and Goku being not too far off Jiren. UI can't apply since that means only Goku was close to Jiren. It has to be forms that are close in power or shared.
In the manga continuity SSJBE is the only proper form that makes an impact since it draws blood from Jiren, Jiren with his superbly honed fighting instincts defeats Vegeta easily, but because Vegeta can hurt Jiren we can apply this form to the statement. The only form of Gokus that comes close to SSJBE is that KK like power up, so we may have to include that, or SSJBE isn't a drastic power up from MSSJB. Either way it's a bit of a mess to make fit.

In the anime Blue evo and SSJBkk are miles off Jiren, and that's even before we have his limit breaking form to try and make sense of. In the anime any form outside of UI can't make a dent in regular Jiren, forget about the total monster that is LB Jiren. UI is exclusive to Goku so that can't be included in Vegetas statement from Super Hero about both him and Goku in relation to Jiren.

In Toriyamas continuity SSJB Goku and Vegeta arent too far off from Jiren in power level. We don't actually see the fight, but we know those are likely the only forms they share, or are close in power to eachother for the statement to fit.

Vegeta getting the better of Granolah isn't to do with him making no wasted movements, and having a calm mind. Its due to him fighting a total newbie who doesn't even know how to use all his new powers. Vegeta will make less wasted movements than Granolah by proxy, but he isn't anything close to Jiren in this regard. Vegeta's a seasoned warrior, but Jiren is going above and beyond that.

To make these continuities fit is a mess. This always happens though. Fans will always force their wonky jigsaw puzzles to fit. We all have varying degrees of success with this but no matter the case they aren't meant to fit seamlessly.

[Skar]

I'm looking forward to watching this, the three separate stories pulling in different directions does make it rather annoying keeping the lore straight though.

I think it's easiest to treat manga and anime only content as like the filler in the original series. It was "canon" to the original anime continuity but Toriyama either didn't take them into consideration or unaware of every detail they were adding when writing the manga. It's unlikely he's going to double check every single frame and panel of the anime and manga since it didn't seem like he did that for the films despite being more involved with them.

If Super Hero was written before Moro, that kinda makes the two manga arcs a midquel written after like DBS is to EoZ. It's weird to have a midquel within a midquel though. I hope the next manga arc takes place after Super Hero.

[HeroR]

It'd be SSJBE since that caused Jiren to bleed once he hit him. Showing that he was no longer an indomitable tank. Not like I care since there's now clearly 3 different continuities anyway. Toiryamas where Merged Zamasu is fodder to Vegetto, and weaker than two SSJBs, and Jiren isn't much above regular SSJB (both Goku and Vegeta). The manga where MSSJB is as strong as Merged Zamasu, and Zamasu is fodder to Vegetto. Jiren isn't much stronger than SSJBE (but this doesn't really work for Vegetas statement from Super Hero since he states that both him and Goku weren't far off Jiren, not that only one was close to him). Then there's the anime, where Merged Zamasu has a corrupted form which is as strong as Bluegetto, and Jiren is an absolute monster who fodderises KKx20 Blue Goku, and can deflect the genki dama by flexing at KKX20 Blueku. (Pure Buu was overpowered by regular old SSJ pushing it at him, and Freeza was overpowered by massively fatigued base Goku doing the same.. this feat is monstrous). Ultra instinct in the anime is fucking godly too, Jiren at full power is a speck to it, it takes a limit breaking form to close the gap.

Also in reply to you mentioning Vegeta hitting above his weight class against Granolah, its true he can and did against him. Vegeta is a trained warrior after all, but even a well trained Vegeta pales in comparison to how highly refined Jiren is. Vegeta is basically Granolah in this situation and Jiren is Vegeta in that example, he's just that more more highly tuned that Vegeta.

The extended Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan forms don't exists in Toriyama's script. So you can't say it's SSBE.

In Toriyama's original script Vegito didn't exists at all. He was added by Toyo's suggesting. And saying Jiren isn't much above regular Blue doesn't match either because then why did Goku need UI. And manga Jiren tanked SSBE Vegeta's punches and punched Goku out of UI.

That isn't my point. My point is that Vegeta treats Jiren having no wasteful movement made him punch above his class, which isn't new when he did it himself. So why did it take years for him to figure that out.

Hence my point on three different continuities now, and Vegetto was put in due to Toyos reccomendation, but even so Toriyama accepted it and now it's something that happens in all versions.

The main point here is Vegeta mentions both him and Goku being not too far off Jiren. UI can't apply since that means only Goku was close to Jiren. It has to be forms that are close in power or shared.
In the manga continuity SSJBE is the only proper form that makes an impact since it draws blood from Jiren, Jiren with his superbly honed fighting instincts defeats Vegeta easily, but because Vegeta can hurt Jiren we can apply this form to the statement. The only form of Gokus that comes close to SSJBE is that KK like power up, so we may have to include that, or SSJBE isn't a drastic power up from MSSJB. Either way it's a bit of a mess to make fit.

In the anime Blue evo and SSJBkk are miles off Jiren, and that's even before we have his limit breaking form to try and make sense of. In the anime any form outside of UI can't make a dent in regular Jiren, forget about the total monster that is LB Jiren. UI is exclusive to Goku so that can't be included in Vegetas statement from Super Hero about both him and Goku in relation to Jiren.

In Toriyamas continuity SSJB Goku and Vegeta arent too far off from Jiren in power level. We don't actually see the fight, but we know those are likely the only forms they share, or are close in power to eachother for the statement to fit.

Vegeta getting the better of Granolah isn't to do with him making no wasted movements, and having a calm mind. Its due to him fighting a total newbie who doesn't even know how to use all his new powers. Vegeta will make less wasted movements than Granolah by proxy, but he isn't anything close to Jiren in this regard. Vegeta's a seasoned warrior, but Jiren is going above and beyond that.

To make these continuities fit is a mess. This always happens though. Fans will always force their wonky jigsaw puzzles to fit. We all have varying degrees of success with this but no matter the case they aren't meant to fit seamlessly.

Point was that Fusion Zamasu wasn't fodder to Vegito in Toriyama's script since he didn't exist.

And to be frank, since when do we count outlines as a continuity? The fact is, outside of the movies, the rest of the sagas by Toriyama are little more than footnotes for Toyo and Toei to fill. They don't count as their own thing no more than any rough draft.

Which again, too far in what regard since Vegeta never said what. That and SSBE drawing blood doesn't mean he was near Jiren. Remember, Kaioken x20 Goku burnt 50% Frieza's hand with a Kamehameha. Was Goku anywhere near 50% Frieza?

We are assuming what Toriyama's continuity is since the fact is, none of us seen his outline.

Vegeta getting the best of Granolah was because was the better warrior, which is what Vegeta more or less said about Jiren.

I'm looking forward to watching this, the three separate stories pulling in different directions does make it rather annoying keeping the lore straight though.

I think it's easiest to treat manga and anime only content as like the filler in the original series. It was "canon" to the original anime continuity but Toriyama either didn't take them into consideration or unaware of every detail they were adding when writing the manga. It's unlikely he's going to double check every single frame and panel of the anime and manga since it didn't seem like he did that for the films despite being more involved with them.

If Super Hero was written before Moro, that kinda makes the two manga arcs a midquel written after like DBS is to EoZ. It's weird to have a midquel within a midquel though. I hope the next manga arc takes place after Super Hero.

You really can't do that since we never seen Toriyama's outline. Like what even is Toriyama's version of the TOP since Toei made most of the fighters and Toppo and Dyspo didn't even have personalities? And it's odd that people are treating footnotes like a real story.

[Skar]

You really can't do that since we never seen Toriyama's outline. Like what even is Toriyama's version of the TOP since Toei made most of the fighters and Toppo and Dyspo didn't even have personalities? And it's odd that people are treating footnotes like a real story.

I don't mean the outline is a complete story. Some of what Toyotaro and Toei add is to connect the plot points but a lot of it is basically filler that could be removed without affecting the story. I just meant he only seems to take into consideration his outline when writing the next outline or film. He wrote the ToP was a tournament between universes and Freeza was resurrected which was the only part they mentioned in Broly.

[Dogasu]

I just got back from seeing this.

Spoiler:

I liked this movie a WHOLE lot better than the Broly one. The story was pretty decent (though nothing mind-blowing), the characterizations were great, and the new characters all really seemed to fit into the Dragon Ball universe with no problem.

I really, really loved how this was, for all intents and purposes, just a Piccolo and Gohan movie. As the movie got into the Cell Max fight I was worried they were going to bring Goku and Vegeta in to save the say like in pretty much every other story in this franchise but nope, Piccolo and Gohan defeated all the villains themselves! In fact, you could pretty much cut Goku's and Vegeta's scenes from the film and you really wouldn't miss much!

A few other random observations:

- Animation-wise, I thought the movie looked great a good 95% of the time. The fact that the whole thing was CG instead of it being like 2/3 hand drawn, 1/3 CG or whatever gives the movie a nice consistency that I really appreciated. There were a few parts, especially at the beginning, with some noticeable jaggies on the screen but that could just be because I was watching this on a giant theater screen.
- I could watch a whole movie with just Piccolo and Pan interacting with each other. Their chemistry in this was just absolutely perfect; the playful way she trains with him, the way she faithfully follows his instructions to act helpless when she's "kidnapped," the little fist bump she gives him after the two of them successfully piss off Gohan enough to trigger one of his power-ups...everything about the two of them in this movie is just perfect.
- Does Gohan know English? A lot of the textbooks he had around his study had English language titles and the essay he's seen typing up also seemed to be in English so I guess he does...?
- Bulma's new VA did pretty well in this, I though. She's no Hiromi Tsuru but I feel like she did the job well enough.
- Mr. Popo is conspicuously absent during the scene with Dende halfway through the movie. No name drop, no one addresses his absence, nothing. I guess Toei's (finally!) decided to just kind of sweep him under the rug...?
- When it comes to parts that might give Western censors "trouble," the only things that really stood out to me were 1) a scene or two of Magenta smoking a cigar, 2) some unnecessarily pervy Bulma fanservice shots, and 3) a tiny amount of blood during the final fight.

[DBZfan29]

I just got back from seeing this.

Spoiler:

I liked this movie a WHOLE lot better than the Broly one. The story was pretty decent (though nothing mind-blowing), the characterizations were great, and the new characters all really seemed to fit into the Dragon Ball universe with no problem.

I really, really loved how this was, for all intents and purposes, just a Piccolo and Gohan movie. As the movie got into the Cell Max fight I was worried they were going to bring Goku and Vegeta in to save the say like in pretty much every other story in this franchise but nope, Piccolo and Gohan defeated all the villains themselves! In fact, you could pretty much cut Goku's and Vegeta's scenes from the film and you really wouldn't miss much!

A few other random observations:

- Animation-wise, I thought the movie looked great a good 95% of the time. The fact that the whole thing was CG instead of it being like 2/3 hand drawn, 1/3 CG or whatever gives the movie a nice consistency that I really appreciated. There were a few parts, especially at the beginning, with some noticeable jaggies on the screen but that could just be because I was watching this on a giant theater screen.
- I could watch a whole movie with just Piccolo and Pan interacting with each other. Their chemistry in this was just absolutely perfect; the playful way she trains with him, the way she faithfully follows his instructions to act helpless when she's "kidnapped," the little fist bump she gives him after the two of them successfully piss off Gohan enough to trigger one of his power-ups...everything about the two of them in this movie is just perfect.
- Does Gohan know English? A lot of the textbooks he had around his study had English language titles and the essay he's seen typing up also seemed to be in English so I guess he does...?
- Bulma's new VA did pretty well in this, I though. She's no Hiromi Tsuru but I feel like she did the job well enough.
- Mr. Popo is conspicuously absent during the scene with Dende halfway through the movie. No name drop, no one addresses his absence, nothing. I guess Toei's (finally!) decided to just kind of sweep him under the rug...?
- When it comes to parts that might give Western censors "trouble," the only things that really stood out to me were 1) a scene or two of Magenta smoking a cigar, 2) some unnecessarily pervy Bulma fanservice shots, and 3) a tiny amount of blood during the final fight.

I agree with everything you said here!

Spoiler:

Piccolo and Pan were the cutest. The way she recognized him in the RR uniform really showed how well they get along. I also found it hilarious how the teacher just knows Piccolo, a green alien, comes around to pick up Pan sometimes LOL.

I had the same fear as you did, with Goku and Vegeta coming back to save the day. But this was the Piccolo and Gohan show. Even at the screening in Tokyo with the cast, everyone does the Makankosappo together, no the kamehameha.

I noticed you didn’t touch on the transformations or the final boss. I think a lot of people are caught up on those things, and yes they are a little basic, but that shouldn’t be the main takeaway from this movie. Same with the CG. I have a friend who won’t watch in theaters for that reason alone. I guess they’ll just have to actually see it.

[Luso Saiyan]

It's his classic laziness, not making fun of his fanbase.

Simplicity is not laziness.

[TheSaiyanGod]

My point was ever since Goku got UI they've been handing out new forms and powerups to Vegeta to compensate and none of them have stuck because UI was a genuine cultural reset rivaling the original Super Saiyan transformation while all of Vegeta's new powerups are things we either forgot about the moment they happened or wish we could.

So for the movie to ignore all that and just say he needs to meditate is practically an acknowledgment of that.

From the beginning SSBE wasn't supposed to be Vegeta's way of rivaling Goku since it was clearly well below Ultra Instinct. It just represents the moment that Vegeta decides to set his path apart from Goku.

The Yardrat training also wasn't meant to give Vegeta his own way of matching Ultra Instinct. It was specifically designed to counter Moro, so there was no promise for it to stick around after that.

Really the only thing that was created with that intention was Ultra Ego, and Toyotaro specifically says that, which is why that's a technique on the same vein as Ultra Instinct. So that's the moment where we have to wait and see if they will continue to develop this path because it seems to be the intention

[Dbzfan94]

I'm really bummed by all the negativity on this forum, I'm excited to see the movie and the new forms but I'm shocked a lot of you claim to be fans of Dragon Ball given how you talk about it here, smdh, I wish the English version was coming sooner than 2 months tho

We can be fans of a series and think the current stuff is lame.

Except those who have seen the movie like it or are generally positive about what happened. Most of the criticisms, especially here, are from people who didn’t see the movie and are basing everything on summaries and out of context YouTube clips.

I don’t need to pay to go to theater to think that

Spoiler:

Gohan Blanco, Orange Piccolo, and kaijuu red colored Cell

is really fucking dumb. No amount of context will change that.

[Sora Saiyan]

Point was that Fusion Zamasu wasn't fodder to Vegito in Toriyama's script since he didn't exist.

And to be frank, since when do we count outlines as a continuity? The fact is, outside of the movies, the rest of the sagas by Toriyama are little more than footnotes for Toyo and Toei to fill. They don't count as their own thing no more than any rough draft.

Which again, too far in what regard since Vegeta never said what. That and SSBE drawing blood doesn't mean he was near Jiren. Remember, Kaioken x20 Goku burnt 50% Frieza's hand with a Kamehameha. Was Goku anywhere near 50% Frieza?

We are assuming what Toriyama's continuity is since the fact is, none of us seen his outline.

Vegeta getting the best of Granolah was because was the better warrior, which is what Vegeta more or less said about Jiren.

I'm not sure what's going on here now. Toriyamas or not we have three continuities with the movies, anime and manga, and they all differ in some way. Zamasu would've been fodder to a hypothetical Vegetto in Toriyamas draft outline since he was weaker than two SSJBs, but it doesn't matter since the final draft was altered with Toyo, which Toriyama approved, and Vegetto came to be in the final version and was used in both anime and manga after. But this feels like arguing for the sake of arguing now since Toriyamas editors have done stuff like this with his work a lot in the past. The final version includes Vegetto, not much more to be said.

And Goku KKx20 Goku was actually almost bang on equal with 50% Freeza, yeah. Both were sitting at about 60 million. Goku may have been a touch lower since he would've been straining more since he was using KKx10 constantly.

We know Toriyama has a lot to do with the movies. We've been told about this countless times. He does quite a bit with the manga too, but the amount he does for the movies seem to trump the amount of work he puts in the manga.

And yes, Vegeta was a better warrior than Granolah, as I said.. but Jiren is an even better warrior than Vegeta. Its not hard to understand. Vegeta strives to be as good as Jiren.
Jiren is almost the perfect warrior, Vegeta is just a good to great warrior and Granolah is a noob.

[HeroR]

We can be fans of a series and think the current stuff is lame.

Except those who have seen the movie like it or are generally positive about what happened. Most of the criticisms, especially here, are from people who didn’t see the movie and are basing everything on summaries and out of context YouTube clips.

I don’t need to pay to go to theater to think that

Spoiler:

Gohan Blanco, Orange Piccolo, and kaijuu red colored Cell

is really fucking dumb. No amount of context will change that.

Any idea can sound dumb when you simplify it. Like me saying the King Piccata Saga is about a monkey boy fighting a demonic slug who spit out eggs to create demon children and the monkey boy got stronger by drinking a cup of poison.

[Dbzfan94]

Except those who have seen the movie like it or are generally positive about what happened. Most of the criticisms, especially here, are from people who didn’t see the movie and are basing everything on summaries and out of context YouTube clips.

I don’t need to pay to go to theater to think that

Spoiler:

Gohan Blanco, Orange Piccolo, and kaijuu red colored Cell

is really fucking dumb. No amount of context will change that.

Any idea can sound dumb when you simplify it. Like me saying the King Piccata Saga is about a monkey boy fighting a demonic slug who spit out eggs to create demon children and the monkey boy got stronger by drinking a cup of poison.

That’s not the same thing at all, but sure.

[Extreme_kai]

Except those who have seen the movie like it or are generally positive about what happened. Most of the criticisms, especially here, are from people who didn’t see the movie and are basing everything on summaries and out of context YouTube clips.

I don’t need to pay to go to theater to think that

Spoiler:

Gohan Blanco, Orange Piccolo, and kaijuu red colored Cell

is really fucking dumb. No amount of context will change that.

Any idea can sound dumb when you simplify it. Like me saying the King Piccata Saga is about a monkey boy fighting a demonic slug who spit out eggs to create demon children and the monkey boy got stronger by drinking a cup of poison.

I've seen the clips, it looks as absurd as it sounds. At this point Super Super Heros to me at most can be a "So bad it's good movie" and I'm not paying to watch a movie like that, especially from one of my favorite franchises of all time. I have to vote with my dollar for the content I want to see. Some fans are simply not happy with the direction the series is going, doesn't mean we aren't fans, we just want better. If fans keep buying whatever just because they want new Dragon Ball stuff, the series will continue to lower the bar, since they know we will buy it just because it has the DB logo on it. I was spoiled for Broly, actually watched the whole movie in Japanese for free first. I knew all the plot beats beforehand and I liked the screenplay, so I purchased it twice and watched it in theaters twice, the only movie I've ever done that for.

[Grimlock]

Are you seriously saying that the movies are in a different continuity than the manga just because Goku and Vegeta only mention Jiren and not Moro and Granolah?

That alone puts into question whether or not the manga sagas happened in the movies continuity. "Yes, the manga sagas happened in the movies continuity" is just as uncertain as "no, the manga sagas didn't happen in the movies continuity". It's more that we can't say anything for sure.

But if only all we had to deal with was just that, no. The movies and manga do take place in separated continuities due to several other factors as well: differences in events; differences in power level; mentions, or lack thereof; absences and other details.

I mean, even the original Super Saiyan was A HAIR RECOLOR

No, it wasn't.

Straight up Toei interference. They forced him to add Vegito, Broly, and Gogeta, ruining potara in the process.

Hardly, Toei isn't working alone. If we have to point fingers, let's point fingers to all of them, Toriyama, Toei, Toyotaro and Shueisha. They're all to blame.

Vegetto was Toyotaro's idea and we know Android 21 can transform due to a request from Shueisha (which makes one wonder how much involvement the latter has on the creative department overall and what else they "request").

[HeroR]

I don’t need to pay to go to theater to think that

Spoiler:

Gohan Blanco, Orange Piccolo, and kaijuu red colored Cell

is really fucking dumb. No amount of context will change that.

Any idea can sound dumb when you simplify it. Like me saying the King Piccata Saga is about a monkey boy fighting a demonic slug who spit out eggs to create demon children and the monkey boy got stronger by drinking a cup of poison.

I've seen the clips, it looks as absurd as it sounds. At this point Super Super Heros to me at most can be a "So bad it's good movie" and I'm not paying to watch a movie like that, especially from one of my favorite franchises of all time. I have to vote with my dollar for the content I want to see. Some fans are simply not happy with the direction the series is going, doesn't mean we aren't fans, we just want better. If fans keep buying whatever just because they want new Dragon Ball stuff, the series will continue to lower the bar, since they know we will buy it just because it has the DB logo on it. I was spoiled for Broly, actually watched the whole movie in Japanese for free first. I knew all the plot beats beforehand and I liked the screenplay, so I purchased it twice and watched it in theaters twice, the only movie I've ever done that for.

Seeing clips isn’t really the same as seeing the full movie, especially when the clips are utter crap. Like I enjoyed Broly far more than I thought compared to glancing at Youthey clips.

When did I say you’re not a fan. I only said those who watched the movie came back with mostly positive reviews. In comparison, most of the more negative views are from people who didn’t even see it and basing everything on hearsay or clips. It’s fine to say you have no interest, but you really can’t say the product is bad.

“. If fans keep buying whatever just because they want new Dragon Ball stuff, the series will continue to lower the bar, since they know we will buy it just because it has the DB logo on it. ”

And this is a massive problem I have. It’s this arrogance that you have superior taste by implying that anyone that likes and supports the movie are doing it because it’s Dragon Ball and they’ll buy anything. Maybe people actually liked the movie. Especially when people said the same thing about Broly, a movie you like.