Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[CortoMaltese]

Spoiler:

The implications are that Gamma #1 and Gamma #2 are comparable to Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue forms.

Gamma #1 is tad behind Ultimate Gohan. The 82% mention is about the amount Gamma #1 had left until he runs out of energy. This is in response to Gohan asking if Gamma #1 ever tires out, since #17 and #18 don’t.

Likewise, Gamma #2 is equally matched with Ultimate Piccolo, but Gamma #2 has the advantage due to having a large amount of stamina (much like when Piccolo fought #17).

What Gamma #2 attempts against Cell Max is basically a suicidal attack, where he uses 100% of what is left in his tank in one last attack. This doesn’t mean he was holding back against Piccolo, it just is that he decided to sacrifice everything to beat the villain.

Having seen the film, the implication seemed to be:

Spoiler:

Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan (initially) > Gammas > Piccolo (Potential-unleashed)

The 80% line is indeed just about energy reserves in terms of stamina; not strength.

In addition, Gamma #2 actually has the clear upper hand against potential-unleashed Piccolo before Piccolo goes Orange. He's surprised by Piccolo's increase in strength, but reveals he hasn't been fighting at full power, and quickly dispatches Piccolo again (triggering his Orange power-up).

While Ultimate Gohan only has a slight edge against Gamma #1, Orange Piccolo puts his Gamma down in one punch. Piccolo coming out ahead there is further backed up by Gohan later trusting that Orange Piccolo (grown giant) might be their best bet against Cell MAX, and encouraging him to use their last Senzu. However, Piccolo still doubts he can win, and encourages Gohan to take the Senzu so he can charge a full-power attack. We don't get to find out if Piccolo's faith in Gohan pulling out more power in Ultimate would have come to fruition, as he winds up achieving his next transformation instead.

Re: Gamma #2's full power: The suicide attack he uses against Cell MAX is drawing out all of his energy; it isn't just his normal fighting strength. It's the equivalent of Vegeta's self-destruction against Boo.

Re: Jiren:

Spoiler:

To be clear, nothing says he isn't also stronger than Goku and Vegeta in a traditional sense. Just that his approach to movement and energy output helps account for how great the gap felt.

Thank you.
So now Gohan is the strongest and Piccolo the second strongest.
So they are officially the New Heroes of Dragon Ball.
Will beerus challenge them ?
Seems they will replace Goku and Vegeta...
So now what is the future of Goku and Vegeta ?

[ZombieVito]

I agree about Toppo and Vegeta (And by consequence, late ToP KKx20 Goku) > Kefla, though I’m not sure about how to making that work without bloating things a bit more.

I always thought SSJB Gogeta could make short work of Broly, just look at what he does to Broly. But like someone said, the movie kinda makes the novel saying SSJ1 Broly > Anything else before make sense.

I don’t really see how SSJB could be anything other than 50x SSJG. It’s as official as SSJ itself being 50x to me.

I don't agree that Goku surpassed Kefla with anything other than the UI forms. Vegeta should thanks to his pride boost. I would bump Toppo to 75 and Vegeta to 80 and it seems fine to me.

Man, SS1 Broly > Jiren just makes SSB Gogeta like a thousand times stronger than Jiren. Where does Beerus fit into this? Where does Vegetto fit into it? I seriously doubt base Vegetto is weaker than base Kefla so that kinda screws up this numbers.

At the very least the silly notion that Jiren was thousands upon thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta can finally die thanks to the movie.

[Hugo Boss]

Spoiler:

The implications are that Gamma #1 and Gamma #2 are comparable to Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue forms.

Gamma #1 is tad behind Ultimate Gohan. The 82% mention is about the amount Gamma #1 had left until he runs out of energy. This is in response to Gohan asking if Gamma #1 ever tires out, since #17 and #18 don’t.

Likewise, Gamma #2 is equally matched with Ultimate Piccolo, but Gamma #2 has the advantage due to having a large amount of stamina (much like when Piccolo fought #17).

What Gamma #2 attempts against Cell Max is basically a suicidal attack, where he uses 100% of what is left in his tank in one last attack. This doesn’t mean he was holding back against Piccolo, it just is that he decided to sacrifice everything to beat the villain.

Having seen the film, the implication seemed to be:

Spoiler:

Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan (initially) > Gammas > Piccolo (Potential-unleashed)

The 80% line is indeed just about energy reserves in terms of stamina; not strength.

In addition, Gamma #2 actually has the clear upper hand against potential-unleashed Piccolo before Piccolo goes Orange. He's surprised by Piccolo's increase in strength, but reveals he hasn't been fighting at full power, and quickly dispatches Piccolo again (triggering his Orange power-up).

While Ultimate Gohan only has a slight edge against Gamma #1, Orange Piccolo puts his Gamma down in one punch. Piccolo coming out ahead there is further backed up by Gohan later trusting that Orange Piccolo (grown giant) might be their best bet against Cell MAX, and encouraging him to use their last Senzu. However, Piccolo still doubts he can win, and encourages Gohan to take the Senzu so he can charge a full-power attack. We don't get to find out if Piccolo's faith in Gohan pulling out more power in Ultimate would have come to fruition, as he winds up achieving his next transformation instead.

Re: Gamma #2's full power: The suicide attack he uses against Cell MAX is drawing out all of his energy; it isn't just his normal fighting strength. It's the equivalent of Vegeta's self-destruction against Boo.

Re: Jiren:

Spoiler:

To be clear, nothing says he isn't also stronger than Goku and Vegeta in a traditional sense. Just that his approach to movement and energy output helps account for how great the gap felt.

Spoiler:

Thank you for the corrections and in-depth details.

I think Piccolo’s faith in Gohan’s power is solidified on his new transformation, which is the pay off of his bet.

[Sora Saiyan]

I mean, he was sooooo strong, yet while using his full power, he was unable to eliminate Goku BEFORE he got Ultra Instinct back... and he had like two entire episodes to do it (starts going full power at end of ep. 126, Goku gets UI back at the end of ep. 128).

If Jiren is so almighty power-wise, why couldn't he just oneshot Goku off the ring without giving him the chance to get UI back?

Jiren had exceptional mental focus, but I never denied this. Rewatch the scenes with Jiren, he is always calm, composed, and collected. Ironically, he starts getting pummelled and humiliated by UI Goku precisely when he loses his composure and starts getting frustrated/angry; and regains the upper-hand only after calming down and getting his Limit-breaker form (which looks like UI, but recoloured in red).

Jiren's power was always overblown by the fandom, and this is something I noticed even before this movie came out. A few weeks ago, I was rewatching the ToP arc, and SSB Goku and SSBE Vegeta were literally fighting evenly and holding their ground against FULL POWER Jiren in eps. 127-128. Sure in the end they would have lost if Goku didn't get UI back, but still, if Jiren was so much stronger, you'd expect him to just roll over the opposition. Which is not what happened at all in those 2 episodes.

Then people say "oh but he effortlessly pushed back a Genkidama fired SSB Goku", in the end that's just empty hype. These scenes are included by the writers to make the fights look good, entertaining, funny, to keep people hooked, it's no different than Goku Black doing this while in BASE; but they are irrelevant from a powerscaling perspective:

I think you missed the part where I call him “arrogant”. In the manga he at least fights from the start, but in the anime he spends half the tournament watching fights and the other half meditating. Even in the manga he’s stuck fighting SSJB Goku half the tournament, and whenever we get a glimpse of the fight it’s just Jiren standing still as Goku fails to budge him. This doesn’t sound like he couldn’t have one shot him. Even in the anime he just lets Base Goku go scot-free after their first fight.

In the manga I can see the difference being just a couple times or so. It’s a big gap when they fight him, but nothing gigantic.

In the anime there’s no running from it though. Jiren did put some effort in the Genki-Dama, but only with his suppressed power and gave off a Ki that scares everyone. Vegeta later says Jiren has the strongest Ki he ever felt. Jiren then does several power ups after that. Ki is power from the mind and body, so a strong mind will still make him stronger regardless. Vegeta’s statement doesn’t really mean anything when you think about it.

When Goku and Vegeta go fight Jiren, he’s initially tanking their Final Kamehameha combo without a scratch, but they slowly start doing better and better. In the anime the comparison should only apply to Goku and Vegeta’s powers by the end of the ToP after they had broken through all their limits and improved several times.

Jiren was phenomenal. He rarely went for the kill or the ring out, but when he goes for the win he can end it instantly, as we see with UI Omen only being saved from Jirens attack thanks to blocking with the KHH just prior to Jirens impact. Or when 17, Goku, and Vegeta attack him and he wipes them out (remember people he can't just kill them, so without that handicap it would be over then). Jiren rarely goes for the win, but when he does we see that he puts people away instantly. We see it when Freeza attacks Jiren after he's incapacitated Goku, 17 and Vegeta, he just lets Freeza attack for a bit, swats him away to which Freeza turns Golden and then he blocks him with his glare and KOs him instantly aswell. Jiren KOs the characters quicker in their most powerful forms vs their base.

We see him hitting base Vegeta multiple times before he decides to finish him off. He does the same to Blue Goku too, and then to base Goku. Really Jiren just dug his own hole, since he could've defeated U7 whenever he saw fit but he continued to play around even when Vegeta and Goku reverted to base when we literally see him KO them in one shot in their most powerful forms.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Having seen the film, the implication seemed to be:

Spoiler:

Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan (initially) > Gammas > Piccolo (Potential-unleashed)

The 80% line is indeed just about energy reserves in terms of stamina; not strength.

In addition, Gamma #2 actually has the clear upper hand against potential-unleashed Piccolo before Piccolo goes Orange. He's surprised by Piccolo's increase in strength, but reveals he hasn't been fighting at full power, and quickly dispatches Piccolo again (triggering his Orange power-up).

While Ultimate Gohan only has a slight edge against Gamma #1, Orange Piccolo puts his Gamma down in one punch. Piccolo coming out ahead there is further backed up by Gohan later trusting that Orange Piccolo (grown giant) might be their best bet against Cell MAX, and encouraging him to use their last Senzu. However, Piccolo still doubts he can win, and encourages Gohan to take the Senzu so he can charge a full-power attack. We don't get to find out if Piccolo's faith in Gohan pulling out more power in Ultimate would have come to fruition, as he winds up achieving his next transformation instead.

Re: Gamma #2's full power: The suicide attack he uses against Cell MAX is drawing out all of his energy; it isn't just his normal fighting strength. It's the equivalent of Vegeta's self-destruction against Boo.

Re: Jiren:

Spoiler:

To be clear, nothing says he isn't also stronger than Goku and Vegeta in a traditional sense. Just that his approach to movement and energy output helps account for how great the gap felt.

Spoiler:

Having read different summaries/translations about the movie, something that has me a little confused is: How do you see Gohan's line about Goku and Vegeta's power compared to Cell Max?

Piccolo says during the movie that the Gammas are comparable to Goku/Vegeta and this makes me think that Gohan's line in the end conflicts with that. If the Androids are comparable to the two Saiyans, why does Gohan say that maybe Goku and Vegeta wouldn't be able to defeat Cell Max? Because the Gammas are way below Cell Max, and if Goku and Vegeta are at that level, there would be no reason for Gohan to wonder if they would defeat Cell, the difference is too big. This makes me think that Goku and Vegeta in the movie are around Cell Max's level, and the Gammas would only be close to their level, hence the "comparable" word used by Piccolo. Or was Gohan talking about them fighting both at the same time?

Of course, maybe I read some translation that is not fully accurate

[ZombieVito]

Gohan confirmed to not have gotten weaker for not training.

After he blocks Piccolo's punch he says: "Heh heh, I haven't gotten weaker".

[Hugo Boss]

Having seen the film, the implication seemed to be:

Spoiler:

Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan (initially) > Gammas > Piccolo (Potential-unleashed)

The 80% line is indeed just about energy reserves in terms of stamina; not strength.

In addition, Gamma #2 actually has the clear upper hand against potential-unleashed Piccolo before Piccolo goes Orange. He's surprised by Piccolo's increase in strength, but reveals he hasn't been fighting at full power, and quickly dispatches Piccolo again (triggering his Orange power-up).

While Ultimate Gohan only has a slight edge against Gamma #1, Orange Piccolo puts his Gamma down in one punch. Piccolo coming out ahead there is further backed up by Gohan later trusting that Orange Piccolo (grown giant) might be their best bet against Cell MAX, and encouraging him to use their last Senzu. However, Piccolo still doubts he can win, and encourages Gohan to take the Senzu so he can charge a full-power attack. We don't get to find out if Piccolo's faith in Gohan pulling out more power in Ultimate would have come to fruition, as he winds up achieving his next transformation instead.

Re: Gamma #2's full power: The suicide attack he uses against Cell MAX is drawing out all of his energy; it isn't just his normal fighting strength. It's the equivalent of Vegeta's self-destruction against Boo.

Re: Jiren:

Spoiler:

To be clear, nothing says he isn't also stronger than Goku and Vegeta in a traditional sense. Just that his approach to movement and energy output helps account for how great the gap felt.

Spoiler:

Having read different summaries/translations about the movie, something that has me a little confused is: How do you see Gohan's line about Goku and Vegeta's power compared to Cell Max?

Piccolo says during the movie that the Gammas are comparable to Goku/Vegeta and this makes me think that Gohan's line in the end conflicts with that. If the Androids are comparable to the two Saiyans, why does Gohan say that maybe Goku and Vegeta wouldn't be able to defeat Cell Max? Because the Gammas are way below Cell Max, and if Goku and Vegeta are at that level, there would be no reason for Gohan to wonder if they would defeat Cell, the difference is too big. This makes me think that Goku and Vegeta in the movie are around Cell Max's level, and the Gammas would only be close to their level, hence the "comparable" word used by Piccolo. Or was Gohan talking about them fighting both at the same time?

Of course, maybe I read some translation that is not fully accurate

Spoiler:

Maybe they are comparable in the sense that they could give Goku and Vegeta a tough fight, but if I were to think about a middle ground, it would be Orange Piccolo > Goku/Vegeta > Ultimate Gohan > Gammas.

According to the summaries Gamma #2’s attacks didn’t even budge Orange Piccolo, so I don’t think you can tell Gamma #2 feels like comparable to Orange Piccolo.

I just remembered I didn’t mention Golden Freeza at all. Considering he could handle Broly for a while, maybe he is a notch above Goku and Vegeta, but I don’t see he being a match for Orange Piccolo though. What a twist.

[Block88]

I agree about Toppo and Vegeta (And by consequence, late ToP KKx20 Goku) > Kefla, though I’m not sure about how to making that work without bloating things a bit more.

I always thought SSJB Gogeta could make short work of Broly, just look at what he does to Broly. But like someone said, the movie kinda makes the novel saying SSJ1 Broly > Anything else before make sense.

I don’t really see how SSJB could be anything other than 50x SSJG. It’s as official as SSJ itself being 50x to me.

I don't agree that Goku surpassed Kefla with anything other than the UI forms. Vegeta should thanks to his pride boost. I would bump Toppo to 75 and Vegeta to 80 and it seems fine to me.

Man, SS1 Broly > Jiren just makes SSB Gogeta like a thousand times stronger than Jiren. Where does Beerus fit into this? Where does Vegetto fit into it? I seriously doubt base Vegetto is weaker than base Kefla so that kinda screws up this numbers.

At the very least the silly notion that Jiren was thousands upon thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta can finally die thanks to the movie.

Ssj Broly isn't Stronger than Jiren
lssj is however

[ZombieVito]

Ssj Broly isn't Stronger than Jiren
lssj is however

We don't know. The Broly novel says he is and now Super Hero says Jiren isn't that much stronger than Goku and Vegeta so SS Broly > Jiren would fit.

[Cipher]

Gohan confirmed to not have gotten weaker for not training.

After he blocks Piccolo's punch he says: "Heh heh, I haven't gotten weaker".

It's "I haven't gotten that rusty."

He has gotten somewhat rusty.

For mouthing off he immediately eats another punch he doesn't block anyway.

[Cipher]

Spoiler:

Having read different summaries/translations about the movie, something that has me a little confused is: How do you see Gohan's line about Goku and Vegeta's power compared to Cell Max?

Piccolo says during the movie that the Gammas are comparable to Goku/Vegeta and this makes me think that Gohan's line in the end conflicts with that. If the Androids are comparable to the two Saiyans, why does Gohan say that maybe Goku and Vegeta wouldn't be able to defeat Cell Max? Because the Gammas are way below Cell Max, and if Goku and Vegeta are at that level, there would be no reason for Gohan to wonder if they would defeat Cell, the difference is too big. This makes me think that Goku and Vegeta in the movie are around Cell Max's level, and the Gammas would only be close to their level, hence the "comparable" word used by Piccolo. Or was Gohan talking about them fighting both at the same time?

Of course, maybe I read some translation that is not fully accurate

Spoiler:

Piccolo does say the Gammas might comparable to Goku and Vegeta. I'd probably chalk it up to "in SSB," and delivered as a general statement that they're just too much for Piccolo and co/a big deal. Which is the manner in which it's delivered.

We don't really get to know how accurate that statement is either. Hard to do anything with other than take it as a "Too much for us" line.

Especially when the film ends on Gohan wondering if they could/couldn't have beaten Cell MAX isntead.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Spoiler:

Maybe they are comparable in the sense that they could give Goku and Vegeta a tough fight, but if I were to think about a middle ground, it would be Orange Piccolo > Goku/Vegeta > Ultimate Gohan > Gammas.

According to the summaries Gamma #2’s attacks didn’t even budge Orange Piccolo, so I don’t think you can tell Gamma #2 feels like comparable to Orange Piccolo.

I just remembered I didn’t mention Golden Freeza at all. Considering he could handle Broly for a while, maybe he is a notch above Goku and Vegeta, but I don’t see he being a match for Orange Piccolo though. What a twist.

Spoiler:

Yeah, after Cipher's reply probably it seems on the same vein as Ultimate Gohan being SSB tier in the ToP, but not quite as strong as the characters higher in this tier, with the best example being Gohan himself being comparable with SSB Goku, and yet he could barely scratch Toppo (as strong as Goku). That way you could have the Gammas in the Blue tier and at the same time have Goku and Vegeta around Cell Max's level

Spoiler:

Piccolo does say the Gammas might comparable to Goku and Vegeta. I'd probably chalk it up to "in SSB," and delivered as a general statement that they're just too much for Piccolo and co/a big deal. Which is the manner in which it's delivered.

We don't really get to know how accurate that statement is either. Hard to do anything with other than take it as a "Too much for us" line.

Especially when the film ends on Gohan wondering if they could/couldn't have beaten Cell MAX isntead.

Spoiler:

Thanks. So it seems to be something like this:

Final Gohan >>> Cell Max ~ SSB Goku/Vegeta > Orange Piccolo >> Ultimate Gohan > Gamma 1/2 > Potential Unleashed Piccolo

Only really putting Piccolo below both Saiyans because of the line at the end of the movie regarding Cell Max and because the Gammas were said to be "just" comparable to Goku amd Vegeta.

I feel like whenever these forms get adapted into the manga or anime format, the scaling will change to fit these continuites. Will Final Gohan and Orange Piccolo end up on the same ballpark as UI Goku and UE Vegeta? It remains to be seen

[larzooma]

Final Gohan >>> Cell Max ~ SSB Goku/Vegeta > Orange Piccolo >> Ultimate Gohan > Gamma 1/2 > Potential Unleashed Piccolo

Just no,

SSB Goku and Vegeta are around Gamma 1/2 and the Ultimate forms.

After seeing the movie and just how above Cell Max Gohan was in his Final form along with the line Goku and Vegeta probably couldn't have won:

I'd truly say

Final Gohan>Ultra Goku and Vegeta>Orange Piccolo>SSB x 20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta (or Mastered, whatever version but the highest they can get before Ultra)> SSB Goku/Vegeta>Gamma 1/2>Ultimate Gohan >Ultimate Piccolo

It's super had to place Broly atm. Not sure if he can always get to that level from the movie or what he will be like when he learns to control it.

Golden Frieza may fall somewhere between SSB Goku/Vegeta and SSBx20/SSBE Goku/Vegeta or higher given his potential for gains.

17 is probably the weakest SSBish level character at this point.

All I know for sure is no universe could come close to 7 at this point unless they stack Jiren clones.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Just no,

SSB Goku and Vegeta are around Gamma 1/2 and the Ultimate forms.

After seeing the movie and just how above Cell Max Gohan was in his Final form along with the line Goku and Vegeta probably couldn't have won:

I'd truly say

Final Gohan>Ultra Goku and Vegeta>Orange Piccolo>SSB x 20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta (or Mastered, whatever version but the highest they can get before Ultra)> SSB Goku/Vegeta>Gamma 1/2>Ultimate Gohan >Ultimate Piccolo

It's super had to place Broly atm. Not sure if he can always get to that level from the movie or what he will be like when he learns to control it.

Golden Frieza may fall somewhere between SSB Goku/Vegeta and SSBx20/SSBE Goku/Vegeta or higher given his potential for gains.

17 is probably the weakest SSBish level character at this point.

All I know for sure is no universe could come close to 7 at this point unless they stack Jiren clones.

Spoiler:

There would be no reason for Goku and Vegeta to be compared to Cell Max if they are as strong as Gamma 1/2, as Cell is far above them. Not only that, Gohan wonders if the two would in fact defeat Cell, so it's not even a definitive statement. If there wasn't that line in the movie I would agree with you because the only comparison we would have would be between the Saiyans and the Gammas.

Blue Evolution, Kaioken, and any continuity-exclusive form are not taken into account in this film, especially considering that it began to be written before Moro and Granolah. So even though, chronologically, it takes place after them, Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego are probably not being considered here either. So trying to mix scalings from 3 different continuites will just require a lot of assumptions

[Champa The Destroyer]

I agree about Toppo and Vegeta (And by consequence, late ToP KKx20 Goku) > Kefla, though I’m not sure about how to making that work without bloating things a bit more.

I always thought SSJB Gogeta could make short work of Broly, just look at what he does to Broly. But like someone said, the movie kinda makes the novel saying SSJ1 Broly > Anything else before make sense.

I don’t really see how SSJB could be anything other than 50x SSJG. It’s as official as SSJ itself being 50x to me.

I don't agree that Goku surpassed Kefla with anything other than the UI forms. Vegeta should thanks to his pride boost. I would bump Toppo to 75 and Vegeta to 80 and it seems fine to me.

Man, SS1 Broly > Jiren just makes SSB Gogeta like a thousand times stronger than Jiren. Where does Beerus fit into this? Where does Vegetto fit into it? I seriously doubt base Vegetto is weaker than base Kefla so that kinda screws up this numbers.

At the very least the silly notion that Jiren was thousands upon thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta can finally die thanks to the movie.

Honestly, I hope this kills some of the Jiren wank. Outside of this forum I've seen people say he's Ultra Ego tier, could beat SSB Gogeta, was actually much stronger than MUI but only lost because of hax, etc. Its terrible, in terms of power Jiren is the most overrated character in Dragon Ball history.

I don't even dislike Jiren, but I'd say he doesn't even have as much power as Broly, let alone Gogeta (I'd also put Broly above ToP MUI as well, btw).

Just like the notion that Full Power Broly is only ToP UI Omen level, which is silly to me. With that logic the guy that required SSB Gogeta to go for the kill would be....Kefla or Toppo level

[ankokudaishogun]

Jiren's WHOLE POINT is that his own GoD cannot defeat him, so lessening his hype is not really going to happen.

Also: rewatching the movie: if I'm not understanding it wrong(My japanese is far from perfect), Vegeta describes Jiren's style as using only the exact amount of ki to deal a blow, only in the exact moment of contact, thus not wasting anything and being able to dish out relatively greater amount of power.

Which quite fits with a lot of stuff going for him in the anime especially: it's basically a partial Ultra Instinct.

[larzooma]

Just no,

SSB Goku and Vegeta are around Gamma 1/2 and the Ultimate forms.

After seeing the movie and just how above Cell Max Gohan was in his Final form along with the line Goku and Vegeta probably couldn't have won:

I'd truly say

Final Gohan>Ultra Goku and Vegeta>Orange Piccolo>SSB x 20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta (or Mastered, whatever version but the highest they can get before Ultra)> SSB Goku/Vegeta>Gamma 1/2>Ultimate Gohan >Ultimate Piccolo

It's super had to place Broly atm. Not sure if he can always get to that level from the movie or what he will be like when he learns to control it.

Golden Frieza may fall somewhere between SSB Goku/Vegeta and SSBx20/SSBE Goku/Vegeta or higher given his potential for gains.

17 is probably the weakest SSBish level character at this point.

All I know for sure is no universe could come close to 7 at this point unless they stack Jiren clones.

Spoiler:

There would be no reason for Goku and Vegeta to be compared to Cell Max if they are as strong as Gamma 1/2, as Cell is far above them. Not only that, Gohan wonders if the two would in fact defeat Cell, so it's not even a definitive statement. If there wasn't that line in the movie I would agree with you because the only comparison we would have would be between the Saiyans and the Gammas.

Blue Evolution, Kaioken, and any continuity-exclusive form are not taken into account in this film, especially considering that it began to be written before Moro and Granolah. So even though, chronologically, it takes place after them, Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego are probably not being considered here either. So trying to mix scalings from 3 different continuites will just require a lot of assumptions

I agree, but people are greatly downgrading the strength of Orange Piccolo and Final Gohan especially. I know the standard for DBS is Goku and Vegeta are steps above everyone else, but this honestly seemed like an attempt to make those two relevant again. Making them Blue, which Gohan was already in his Ultimate Form, doesn't really make sense. I was responding to the person putting those two in their max forms at SSB level for Goku and Vegeta. Makes no sense at this point.

Also, because the forms aren't mentioned and they keep it ambiguous is purposeful. It's because it's a single continuity. They know they need to bring it together at some point. Even though they may not have known Vegeta would gain a form equal to UI Goku, they consciously chose to use that line and show Gohan with such an advantage with a freakishly powerful opponent. Especially given the end was reworked due to the hack. They could have put any line in at that point knowing what's going on in the Manga now.

I truly think Toriyama's comment was foreshadowing where he see's Gohan after this movie. Top of the heap again. When they mix it all back together in the Anime, or if I guess, then we'll know more. At this point though, Gohan and Piccolo deserve some respect compared to Goku and Vegeta and the other "SSJB" level characters. Trying to put Orange at SSJB level is absurd given the Gammas were more powerful than the Ultimate level characters who have already been shown, at least with Gohan, to be SSJB level. Orange Piccolo one shots him in his new form which takes a substantial power gain compared to his Ultimate form and Final Gohan treats Cell Max like SSJ2 Gohan treated Cell.

Most scaling is total speculation based on fights and comments. It's why this thread is close to 2k pages lol.

[Cipher]

Which quite fits with a lot of stuff going for him in the anime especially: it's basically a partial Ultra Instinct.

Your understanding is correct.

It’s also exactly how he describes his own fighting in the manga.

Re: Gohan and Piccolo:

Spoiler:

It’s really hard to say how they’ll shake out against UI and UE Goku and Vegeta based on when the film was written and its loose connection to the specific details of current manga continuity. Future content will tell. No problem assuming Gohan’s new form is his “Ultra” equivalent in terms of power, but it’s hard (impossible?) to say whether or not he’d be above or below them within that realm. I think all references to the two of them in the movie kind of have to be understood as referring to (some vague movie level of) Blue. No matter how much or little sense that may make through the strictest continuity lens. There’s also wiggle-room and vague speculation built into every line to help smooth over whatever approach they go with moving forward.

But yeah, they both have to be at least > SSB (far more so for Gohan by the end), and I think that case if nothing else is made fairly clear by the script even without trying to work in other content.

At this point either #17 or Boo (manga) would be the weakest SSG+ character, depending on how they shake out. (Or SS Rage Trunks from the anime? Someone else can work that one out.)

For everyone who though I had some kind of weird grudge against Piccolo for not reading into Moro arc fight scenes, there you go. Piccolo strong. When it’s clear.

[ZombieVito]

Honestly, I hope this kills some of the Jiren wank. Outside of this forum I've seen people say he's Ultra Ego tier, could beat SSB Gogeta, was actually much stronger than MUI but only lost because of hax, etc. Its terrible, in terms of power Jiren is the most overrated character in Dragon Ball history.

I don't even dislike Jiren, but I'd say he doesn't even have as much power as Broly, let alone Gogeta (I'd also put Broly above ToP MUI as well, btw).

Just like the notion that Full Power Broly is only ToP UI Omen level, which is silly to me. With that logic the guy that required SSB Gogeta to go for the kill would be....Kefla or Toppo level

Yeah, Jiren wank was annoying as hell. Some crazy people were even saying that Jiren used like 1% of his power in episode 109/110.

[Berserker1921]

I think people are misunderstanding the Jiren statement. It doesn’t mean he wasn’t very powerful and from what I heard he often compared or in the same sentence as that of Broly and Gods of destruction. So Toriyama still thinks Jiren is a formidable warrior.

I think what Vegeta was stating that by the end of the tournament they weren’t too far apart in power. But that said, Jiren found a way to combat gods of destruction level beings using power and technique. I personally think he is still stronger than Broly due to skill. As for Gogeta. I don’t know.

Gogeta is never mentioned once. So either Toriyama forgot about him or just thinks he isn’t relevant to the current heroes. But we will see when the movie is officially translated and in further arcs of Super.