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So now Gohan is the strongest and Piccolo the second strongest.
So they are officially the New Heroes of Dragon Ball.
Will beerus challenge them ?
Seems they will replace Goku and Vegeta...
So now what is the future of Goku and Vegeta ?
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I don't agree that Goku surpassed Kefla with anything other than the UI forms. Vegeta should thanks to his pride boost. I would bump Toppo to 75 and Vegeta to 80 and it seems fine to me.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:38 pm I agree about Toppo and Vegeta (And by consequence, late ToP KKx20 Goku) > Kefla, though I’m not sure about how to making that work without bloating things a bit more.
I always thought SSJB Gogeta could make short work of Broly, just look at what he does to Broly. But like someone said, the movie kinda makes the novel saying SSJ1 Broly > Anything else before make sense.
I don’t really see how SSJB could be anything other than 50x SSJG. It’s as official as SSJ itself being 50x to me.
Jiren was phenomenal. He rarely went for the kill or the ring out, but when he goes for the win he can end it instantly, as we see with UI Omen only being saved from Jirens attack thanks to blocking with the KHH just prior to Jirens impact. Or when 17, Goku, and Vegeta attack him and he wipes them out (remember people he can't just kill them, so without that handicap it would be over then). Jiren rarely goes for the win, but when he does we see that he puts people away instantly. We see it when Freeza attacks Jiren after he's incapacitated Goku, 17 and Vegeta, he just lets Freeza attack for a bit, swats him away to which Freeza turns Golden and then he blocks him with his glare and KOs him instantly aswell. Jiren KOs the characters quicker in their most powerful forms vs their base.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:38 pmI think you missed the part where I call him “arrogant”. In the manga he at least fights from the start, but in the anime he spends half the tournament watching fights and the other half meditating. Even in the manga he’s stuck fighting SSJB Goku half the tournament, and whenever we get a glimpse of the fight it’s just Jiren standing still as Goku fails to budge him. This doesn’t sound like he couldn’t have one shot him. Even in the anime he just lets Base Goku go scot-free after their first fight.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:16 pm I mean, he was sooooo strong, yet while using his full power, he was unable to eliminate Goku BEFORE he got Ultra Instinct back... and he had like two entire episodes to do it (starts going full power at end of ep. 126, Goku gets UI back at the end of ep. 128).
If Jiren is so almighty power-wise, why couldn't he just oneshot Goku off the ring without giving him the chance to get UI back?
Jiren had exceptional mental focus, but I never denied this. Rewatch the scenes with Jiren, he is always calm, composed, and collected. Ironically, he starts getting pummelled and humiliated by UI Goku precisely when he loses his composure and starts getting frustrated/angry; and regains the upper-hand only after calming down and getting his Limit-breaker form (which looks like UI, but recoloured in red).
Jiren's power was always overblown by the fandom, and this is something I noticed even before this movie came out. A few weeks ago, I was rewatching the ToP arc, and SSB Goku and SSBE Vegeta were literally fighting evenly and holding their ground against FULL POWER Jiren in eps. 127-128. Sure in the end they would have lost if Goku didn't get UI back, but still, if Jiren was so much stronger, you'd expect him to just roll over the opposition. Which is not what happened at all in those 2 episodes.
Then people say "oh but he effortlessly pushed back a Genkidama fired SSB Goku", in the end that's just empty hype. These scenes are included by the writers to make the fights look good, entertaining, funny, to keep people hooked, it's no different than Goku Black doing this while in BASE; but they are irrelevant from a powerscaling perspective:
In the manga I can see the difference being just a couple times or so. It’s a big gap when they fight him, but nothing gigantic.
In the anime there’s no running from it though. Jiren did put some effort in the Genki-Dama, but only with his suppressed power and gave off a Ki that scares everyone. Vegeta later says Jiren has the strongest Ki he ever felt. Jiren then does several power ups after that. Ki is power from the mind and body, so a strong mind will still make him stronger regardless. Vegeta’s statement doesn’t really mean anything when you think about it.
When Goku and Vegeta go fight Jiren, he’s initially tanking their Final Kamehameha combo without a scratch, but they slowly start doing better and better. In the anime the comparison should only apply to Goku and Vegeta’s powers by the end of the ToP after they had broken through all their limits and improved several times.
Ssj Broly isn't Stronger than JirenZombieVito wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:11 pmI don't agree that Goku surpassed Kefla with anything other than the UI forms. Vegeta should thanks to his pride boost. I would bump Toppo to 75 and Vegeta to 80 and it seems fine to me.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:38 pm I agree about Toppo and Vegeta (And by consequence, late ToP KKx20 Goku) > Kefla, though I’m not sure about how to making that work without bloating things a bit more.
I always thought SSJB Gogeta could make short work of Broly, just look at what he does to Broly. But like someone said, the movie kinda makes the novel saying SSJ1 Broly > Anything else before make sense.
I don’t really see how SSJB could be anything other than 50x SSJG. It’s as official as SSJ itself being 50x to me.
Man, SS1 Broly > Jiren just makes SSB Gogeta like a thousand times stronger than Jiren. Where does Beerus fit into this? Where does Vegetto fit into it? I seriously doubt base Vegetto is weaker than base Kefla so that kinda screws up this numbers.
At the very least the silly notion that Jiren was thousands upon thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta can finally die thanks to the movie.
We don't know. The Broly novel says he is and now Super Hero says Jiren isn't that much stronger than Goku and Vegeta so SS Broly > Jiren would fit.
It's "I haven't gotten that rusty."ZombieVito wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:33 pm Gohan confirmed to not have gotten weaker for not training.
After he blocks Piccolo's punch he says: "Heh heh, I haven't gotten weaker".
Just no,Final Gohan >>> Cell Max ~ SSB Goku/Vegeta > Orange Piccolo >> Ultimate Gohan > Gamma 1/2 > Potential Unleashed Piccolo
larzooma wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:52 pmJust no,
SSB Goku and Vegeta are around Gamma 1/2 and the Ultimate forms.
After seeing the movie and just how above Cell Max Gohan was in his Final form along with the line Goku and Vegeta probably couldn't have won:
I'd truly say
Final Gohan>Ultra Goku and Vegeta>Orange Piccolo>SSB x 20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta (or Mastered, whatever version but the highest they can get before Ultra)> SSB Goku/Vegeta>Gamma 1/2>Ultimate Gohan >Ultimate Piccolo
It's super had to place Broly atm. Not sure if he can always get to that level from the movie or what he will be like when he learns to control it.
Golden Frieza may fall somewhere between SSB Goku/Vegeta and SSBx20/SSBE Goku/Vegeta or higher given his potential for gains.
17 is probably the weakest SSBish level character at this point.
All I know for sure is no universe could come close to 7 at this point unless they stack Jiren clones.
Honestly, I hope this kills some of the Jiren wank. Outside of this forum I've seen people say he's Ultra Ego tier, could beat SSB Gogeta, was actually much stronger than MUI but only lost because of hax, etc. Its terrible, in terms of power Jiren is the most overrated character in Dragon Ball history.ZombieVito wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:11 pmI don't agree that Goku surpassed Kefla with anything other than the UI forms. Vegeta should thanks to his pride boost. I would bump Toppo to 75 and Vegeta to 80 and it seems fine to me.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:38 pm I agree about Toppo and Vegeta (And by consequence, late ToP KKx20 Goku) > Kefla, though I’m not sure about how to making that work without bloating things a bit more.
I always thought SSJB Gogeta could make short work of Broly, just look at what he does to Broly. But like someone said, the movie kinda makes the novel saying SSJ1 Broly > Anything else before make sense.
I don’t really see how SSJB could be anything other than 50x SSJG. It’s as official as SSJ itself being 50x to me.
Man, SS1 Broly > Jiren just makes SSB Gogeta like a thousand times stronger than Jiren. Where does Beerus fit into this? Where does Vegetto fit into it? I seriously doubt base Vegetto is weaker than base Kefla so that kinda screws up this numbers.
At the very least the silly notion that Jiren was thousands upon thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta can finally die thanks to the movie.
I agree, but people are greatly downgrading the strength of Orange Piccolo and Final Gohan especially. I know the standard for DBS is Goku and Vegeta are steps above everyone else, but this honestly seemed like an attempt to make those two relevant again. Making them Blue, which Gohan was already in his Ultimate Form, doesn't really make sense. I was responding to the person putting those two in their max forms at SSB level for Goku and Vegeta. Makes no sense at this point.TheSaiyanGod wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:30 pmlarzooma wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:52 pmJust no,
SSB Goku and Vegeta are around Gamma 1/2 and the Ultimate forms.
After seeing the movie and just how above Cell Max Gohan was in his Final form along with the line Goku and Vegeta probably couldn't have won:
I'd truly say
Final Gohan>Ultra Goku and Vegeta>Orange Piccolo>SSB x 20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta (or Mastered, whatever version but the highest they can get before Ultra)> SSB Goku/Vegeta>Gamma 1/2>Ultimate Gohan >Ultimate Piccolo
It's super had to place Broly atm. Not sure if he can always get to that level from the movie or what he will be like when he learns to control it.
Golden Frieza may fall somewhere between SSB Goku/Vegeta and SSBx20/SSBE Goku/Vegeta or higher given his potential for gains.
17 is probably the weakest SSBish level character at this point.
All I know for sure is no universe could come close to 7 at this point unless they stack Jiren clones.Spoiler:
Your understanding is correct.ankokudaishogun wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:39 pm Which quite fits with a lot of stuff going for him in the anime especially: it's basically a partial Ultra Instinct.
Yeah, Jiren wank was annoying as hell. Some crazy people were even saying that Jiren used like 1% of his power in episode 109/110.Champa The Destroyer wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:18 pm Honestly, I hope this kills some of the Jiren wank. Outside of this forum I've seen people say he's Ultra Ego tier, could beat SSB Gogeta, was actually much stronger than MUI but only lost because of hax, etc. Its terrible, in terms of power Jiren is the most overrated character in Dragon Ball history.
I don't even dislike Jiren, but I'd say he doesn't even have as much power as Broly, let alone Gogeta (I'd also put Broly above ToP MUI as well, btw).
Just like the notion that Full Power Broly is only ToP UI Omen level, which is silly to me. With that logic the guy that required SSB Gogeta to go for the kill would be....Kefla or Toppo level