Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Xeno Goku Black]

Well how come you have Top below him? He was more powerful during ToP.

Well, he did train for 2 months in preparation for Moro. I assume he surpassed Toppo with that.

Oh you were incorporating the manga, fair enough.

[Super Murjin]

Would be nice to get more information on Final Gohan and Orange Piccolo.
Has there been more information revealed from the Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero novel?

[Cipher]

Yes, on both accounts.

Then between the Tournament of Power and this movie I see it being like this

Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta > Ultimate Gohan > Gamma 1/2 > Ultimate Piccolo > Android 17

But the gaps being quite small as Android 17 wasn't that far off from Top who was the same as a Super Saiyan Blue.

This is also where I land, specifying that the “Blue” here is “as of the ToP.”

Also everyone here would be in the same general “tier,” even with clear differences. (And Blue Goku and Vegeta put quite another large gap between themselves and everyone in the Moro arc).

Exact placements and gaps would probably change based on what non-movie material and from which version you’re taking into account as well.

[Skar]

Because someone was saying that they didn't build the new androids because 17 and 18 were blowing everything up, I'm saying that the Present Earth also had its fair share of conflicts in recent history (like an invasion from an intergalactic space wizard) and yet the new androids were still built.

I mean I'm just curious, the Gammas and Cell Max are sooo strong and yet they were nowhere to be seen when Black attacked the Earth. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm pretty sure no one aside from the Z fighters was aware of Moro attacking the Earth or they were wished back in the end. 17 and 18 were terrorizing the Earth for almost two decades so they wiped out most of the population. It's likely the new androids were never built. The Gammas considered themselves heroes so they definitely would've stopped the cyborgs. Cell Max couldn't exist since was the character he was based on wasn't even born yet. Super Hero takes place in 782 or 783 while Cell was born in 788.

[Goku9001]

Complete Blue has been called GoD Candidate-class
Blue Evo was comparable to GoD Toppo who was stated being not any different from a regular GoD

IMHO Jiren's RAW power was still in the "same class"(GoD class) as Blue Evo and KKx20, thus fitting the "not too far of a gap" stated by Vegeta, though the Saiyan were likely in the lower ranks of the class and Jiren likely in the upper ranks.

But his SKILL was so high he blasted off the roof of the category: manga Toppo states explicitly Jiren's fighting ability is unmatched by Vermoud, while in the anime Whis suspects Jiren's ability surpassed the GoD state... thus implying being in the Angel stage(as we don't know any other "stage" between GoD and Angel), which fits with the idea of him reaching a "conscious" version of Ultra Instinct.

Remember: Goku and Vegeta in Blue were supposed to be able to match Beerus, so the gap cannot be that gigantic.

Being a candidate for God of Destruction doesn't mean you are equivalent in terms of power. Beerus completely overpowered Completed Blue Vegeta with a single blast with virtually no effort at all. Toppo was comparable to Goku and Vegeta yet his power is never demonstrated to be on the level of a God of Destruction. In fact, Toppo confirms that Goku could have beaten him. Meanwhile, Goku is completely shocked by the Hakaishin's displays of power when they started throwing blasts and physically assaulting each other. Goku makes it clear that he's well below the power of a God of Destruction. In the case of the anime, Jiren was still using a fraction of his energy against both KKx20 Blue Goku and Blue Evo Vegeta. Goku, Vegeta and 17 all believe that the only way to damage him is by attacking him unguarded.

I believe Cipher may have clarified that Toppo's statement was in reference to Jiren's battle power which is supported by supplementary information I provided before. That falls in line with what Goku saw i.e a chaotic slugfest amongst the Hakaishins. In the case of the anime, you are misconstruing Whis' statement. Every spectator was emphasizing the power Jiren possessed. Whis goes on to claim that Jiren was easily forcing Goku back. While Jiren was far from full power, Goku was at his limits. It was at this moment where Whis believed that Jiren may have been the mortal who surpassed his own God of Destruction due to the potential power Jiren possessed. The narrative emphasizes Jiren's power, not necessarily his extraordinary skill to wield it.

Goku and Vegeta were intended to have been reaching Beerus in Blue originally but things changed as movies evolved into a series succeeding "Z". God Goku was originally meant to be within 60% of Beerus' power but that clearly changed. The manga makes it a clear case that Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta were significantly weaker than Beerus given how easily Beerus disposes of Vegeta. The anime makes it a clear case when Vegeta is subservient to Beerus when Beerus threatens him.

I believe people already clarified that Vegeta's statement didn't necessarily imply that there was a small gap between them and Jiren. Only that the gap was exacerbated by Jiren's combat skill. That would still fall in line with what supplementary material explicitly tells us while acknowledging Jiren's ability to handle Ultra Instinct Goku.

[HeroR]

Complete Blue has been called GoD Candidate-class
Blue Evo was comparable to GoD Toppo who was stated being not any different from a regular GoD

IMHO Jiren's RAW power was still in the "same class"(GoD class) as Blue Evo and KKx20, thus fitting the "not too far of a gap" stated by Vegeta, though the Saiyan were likely in the lower ranks of the class and Jiren likely in the upper ranks.

But his SKILL was so high he blasted off the roof of the category: manga Toppo states explicitly Jiren's fighting ability is unmatched by Vermoud, while in the anime Whis suspects Jiren's ability surpassed the GoD state... thus implying being in the Angel stage(as we don't know any other "stage" between GoD and Angel), which fits with the idea of him reaching a "conscious" version of Ultra Instinct.

Remember: Goku and Vegeta in Blue were supposed to be able to match Beerus, so the gap cannot be that gigantic.

Being a candidate for God of Destruction doesn't mean you are equivalent in terms of power. Beerus completely overpowered Completed Blue Vegeta with a single blast with virtually no effort at all. Toppo was comparable to Goku and Vegeta yet his power is never demonstrated to be on the level of a God of Destruction. In fact, Toppo confirms that Goku could have beaten him. Meanwhile, Goku is completely shocked by the Hakaishin's displays of power when they started throwing blasts and physically assaulting each other. Goku makes it clear that he's well below the power of a God of Destruction. In the case of the anime, Jiren was still using a fraction of his energy against both KKx20 Blue Goku and Blue Evo Vegeta. Goku, Vegeta and 17 all believe that the only way to damage him is by attacking him unguarded.

I believe Cipher may have clarified that Toppo's statement was in reference to Jiren's battle power which is supported by supplementary information I provided before. That falls in line with what Goku saw i.e a chaotic slugfest amongst the Hakaishins. In the case of the anime, you are misconstruing Whis' statement. Every spectator was emphasizing the power Jiren possessed. Whis goes on to claim that Jiren was easily forcing Goku back. While Jiren was far from full power, Goku was at his limits. It was at this moment where Whis believed that Jiren may have been the mortal who surpassed his own God of Destruction due to the potential power Jiren possessed. The narrative emphasizes Jiren's power, not necessarily his extraordinary skill to wield it.

Goku and Vegeta were intended to have been reaching Beerus in Blue originally but things changed as movies evolved into a series succeeding "Z". God Goku was originally meant to be within 60% of Beerus' power but that clearly changed. The manga makes it a clear case that Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta were significantly weaker than Beerus given how easily Beerus disposes of Vegeta. The anime makes it a clear case when Vegeta is subservient to Beerus when Beerus threatens him.

I believe people already clarified that Vegeta's statement didn't necessarily imply that there was a small gap between them and Jiren. Only that the gap was exacerbated by Jiren's combat skill. That would still fall in line with what supplementary material explicitly tells us while acknowledging Jiren's ability to handle Ultra Instinct Goku.

This isn't quite right.

In the anime, Whis specifically said that there was a mortal that not even a God of Destruction could defeat and that god is stronger than Beerus. In short, Whis put Jiren over two gods with his statement when he confirmed that Jiren was that mortal, not just his own.

"God Goku was originally meant to be within 60% of Beerus' power but that clearly changed."

Not quite. Toriyama only said on the scale of 1 to 10, Super Saiyan God Goku was a 6 to Beerus' 10. Not that Super Saiyan God Goku was 60% of Beerus' full power. Toriyama's scale was more about how Super Saiyan God Goku had no chance against Beerus. Just like how Toriyama put Whis as a 15 to Beerus' ten to show that Whis dunks on everyone.

You must also remembered that by the time the TOP ended, at least in the anime, it was heavily implied that Goku and Vegeta were in the realm of the gods. Vegeta showed this when he beat God of Destruction Toppo and Goku by growing through the tournament and his brief stint with UI. In the Broly movie, the director did say that Goku was basically a God of Destruction with Vegeta playing catch-up, so Goku even without UI is equivalent in terms of power to a God of Destruction.

So Vegeta's comment about Jiren not being in a completely different tier in power can easily mean by the end of the TOP they were in Jiren's league, but since Jiren was a better fighter it made it seemed that Jiren was still well above them. In both media, UI failed to stop Jiren and U7 only won by a ring-out by basically dog piling. To add to this, Jiren adapted to UI which further showed how much of a better fighter he was too Goku.

[Goku9001]

Complete Blue has been called GoD Candidate-class
Blue Evo was comparable to GoD Toppo who was stated being not any different from a regular GoD

IMHO Jiren's RAW power was still in the "same class"(GoD class) as Blue Evo and KKx20, thus fitting the "not too far of a gap" stated by Vegeta, though the Saiyan were likely in the lower ranks of the class and Jiren likely in the upper ranks.

But his SKILL was so high he blasted off the roof of the category: manga Toppo states explicitly Jiren's fighting ability is unmatched by Vermoud, while in the anime Whis suspects Jiren's ability surpassed the GoD state... thus implying being in the Angel stage(as we don't know any other "stage" between GoD and Angel), which fits with the idea of him reaching a "conscious" version of Ultra Instinct.

Remember: Goku and Vegeta in Blue were supposed to be able to match Beerus, so the gap cannot be that gigantic.

Being a candidate for God of Destruction doesn't mean you are equivalent in terms of power. Beerus completely overpowered Completed Blue Vegeta with a single blast with virtually no effort at all. Toppo was comparable to Goku and Vegeta yet his power is never demonstrated to be on the level of a God of Destruction. In fact, Toppo confirms that Goku could have beaten him. Meanwhile, Goku is completely shocked by the Hakaishin's displays of power when they started throwing blasts and physically assaulting each other. Goku makes it clear that he's well below the power of a God of Destruction. In the case of the anime, Jiren was still using a fraction of his energy against both KKx20 Blue Goku and Blue Evo Vegeta. Goku, Vegeta and 17 all believe that the only way to damage him is by attacking him unguarded.

I believe Cipher may have clarified that Toppo's statement was in reference to Jiren's battle power which is supported by supplementary information I provided before. That falls in line with what Goku saw i.e a chaotic slugfest amongst the Hakaishins. In the case of the anime, you are misconstruing Whis' statement. Every spectator was emphasizing the power Jiren possessed. Whis goes on to claim that Jiren was easily forcing Goku back. While Jiren was far from full power, Goku was at his limits. It was at this moment where Whis believed that Jiren may have been the mortal who surpassed his own God of Destruction due to the potential power Jiren possessed. The narrative emphasizes Jiren's power, not necessarily his extraordinary skill to wield it.

Goku and Vegeta were intended to have been reaching Beerus in Blue originally but things changed as movies evolved into a series succeeding "Z". God Goku was originally meant to be within 60% of Beerus' power but that clearly changed. The manga makes it a clear case that Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta were significantly weaker than Beerus given how easily Beerus disposes of Vegeta. The anime makes it a clear case when Vegeta is subservient to Beerus when Beerus threatens him.

I believe people already clarified that Vegeta's statement didn't necessarily imply that there was a small gap between them and Jiren. Only that the gap was exacerbated by Jiren's combat skill. That would still fall in line with what supplementary material explicitly tells us while acknowledging Jiren's ability to handle Ultra Instinct Goku.

This isn't quite right.

In the anime, Whis specifically said that there was a mortal that not even a God of Destruction could defeat and that god is stronger than Beerus. In short, Whis put Jiren over two gods with his statement when he confirmed that Jiren was that mortal, not just his own.

"God Goku was originally meant to be within 60% of Beerus' power but that clearly changed."

Not quite. Toriyama only said on the scale of 1 to 10, Super Saiyan God Goku was a 6 to Beerus' 10. Not that Super Saiyan God Goku was 60% of Beerus' full power. Toriyama's scale was more about how Super Saiyan God Goku had no chance against Beerus. Just like how Toriyama put Whis as a 15 to Beerus' ten to show that Whis dunks on everyone.

You must also remembered that by the time the TOP ended, at least in the anime, it was heavily implied that Goku and Vegeta were in the realm of the gods. Vegeta showed this when he beat God of Destruction Toppo and Goku by growing through the tournament and his brief stint with UI. In the Broly movie, the director did say that Goku was basically a God of Destruction with Vegeta playing catch-up, so Goku even without UI is equivalent in terms of power to a God of Destruction.

So Vegeta's comment about Jiren not being in a completely different tier in power can easily mean by the end of the TOP they were in Jiren's league, but since Jiren was a better fighter it made it seemed that Jiren was still well above them. In both media, UI failed to stop Jiren and U7 only won by a ring-out by basically dog piling. To add to this, Jiren adapted to UI which further showed how much of a better fighter he was too Goku.

That is Whis' judgement after confirming what he saw. He explicitly builds upon Kaioshin's as well as the other spectators' statements by confirming that Jiren was far from full power despite effortlessly pushing Goku's Genkidama back. It was upon that realization that Jiren was holding back far more power, which caused him to weigh in on the rumors he confirmed. The context of that scene is establishing Jiren's power which is what explicitly places him on the level of a God of Destruction.

In regards to God Goku, Beerus was confirmed to have used 70% of his full power against Goku and Goku managed to overpower Beerus' ultimate attack with proper usage of Super Saiyan God. I can certainly agree that this isn't a power that Goku could act upon without proper training but the point still stands that Toriyama intended Goku's power to be close to Beerus' with proper control. That goes against what we are shown across both continuities.

I agree that Jiren's combat skill is emphasized in the manga. He does chastise Goku for not using his power properly when Goku applies "Kaioken" on top of Blue. Jiren talks about how not a single movement is wasted when discussing about his mindset to Vegeta. And across both continuities, Jiren manages to adapt and respond to the movements made from Goku's Ultra Instinct despite how efficient, speedy, and precise those movements are which requires tremendous skill. It is important to note that when Jiren confronts the trio, Gohan talks about how incredible Jiren's power was. Upon feeling the pressure behind Jiren's energy caused Goku to remark how powerful Jiren had become on his own. Both continuities seemed to establish that both his power and skill were tremendous rather than just his combat skill.

[HeroR]

That is Whis' judgement after confirming what he saw. He explicitly builds upon Kaioshin's as well as the other spectators' statements by confirming that Jiren was far from full power despite effortlessly pushing Goku's Genkidama back. It was upon that realization that Jiren was holding back far more power, which caused him to weigh in on the rumors he confirmed. The context of that scene is establishing Jiren's power which is what explicitly places him on the level of a God of Destruction.

In regards to God Goku, Beerus was confirmed to have used 70% of his full power against Goku and Goku managed to overpower Beerus' ultimate attack with proper usage of Super Saiyan God. I can certainly agree that this isn't a power that Goku could act upon without proper training but the point still stands that Toriyama intended Goku's power to be close to Beerus' with proper control. That goes against what we are shown across both continuities.

I agree that Jiren's combat skill is emphasized in the manga. He does chastise Goku for not using his power properly when Goku applies "Kaioken" on top of Blue. Jiren talks about how not a single movement is wasted when discussing about his mindset to Vegeta. And across both continuities, Jiren manages to adapt and respond to the movements made from Goku's Ultra Instinct despite how efficient, speedy, and precise those movements are which requires tremendous skill. It is important to note that when Jiren confronts the trio, Gohan talks about how incredible Jiren's power was. Upon feeling the pressure behind Jiren's energy caused Goku to remark how powerful Jiren had become on his own. Both continuities seemed to establish that both his power and skill were tremendous rather than just his combat skill.

We actually only know that Beerus used 70% at one point, not that he was using 70% the entire time. Going by the movie, the only time Beerus seemed to go all out was when he tried to Death Ball Goku which nearly killed him. Goku also didn't overpowered Beerus' attack. He just made it disappear.

"Toriyama intended Goku's power to be close to Beerus' with proper control"

I have to disagree. In the context of the movie, it was made perfectly clear that despite Goku's best effects he never really pushed Beerus. Hence why the 70% remark was so shocking when the movie first aired. It was in a very similar context to 50% Frieza vs base form Goku on Namek.

His combat skill is also emphasized in the anime, although it's presented differently. Like after he took out Goku in 110 and Hit tried to sneak attack, Jiren easily caught Hit's attack and Vados noted that most fighters drop their guard when they're finishing an opponent, but Jiren doesn't have that weakness. He also adapted much quicker than Goku did to Hit's Time Skip with using minimal movement. Jiren in the anime also has a habit of one-shotting people instead of prolonging things like how he shot Kale out of Berserk, would have rung out Goku in seconds if Goku didn't save himself, one-shotted Hit out of the ring, took out the fighter from U3 without even physically touching him with what could be an air punch, and adapted to Vegeta trying to UI him. For the lack of better words the anime did more 'show not tell' with Jiren, which is funny considered the anime's need to explain everything.

[Cipher]

Now that I have the novelization for the exact wording as a reference, my translation of the Jiren lines from the film, which seemed most relevant to this thread:

Spoiler:

Vegeta: “Looks like you don’t get it. Jiren and that incredible, overwhelming might of his... His true strength wasn’t all that far off from our own. There was no waste in its use. Did you notice? Even in the midst of battle, his spirit was completely relaxed outside of the moment of attack. Launching attacks from zero, his movements couldn’t be read, and contained explosive power. He was able to save stamina too.”

Goku: "'s that so?"

Vegeta: "That Jiren can probably do it on instinct. That's why I'm doing mental training until I'm able to do it too."

[Berserker1921]

Now that I have the novelization for the exact wording as a reference, my translation of the Jiren lines from the film, which seemed most relevant to this thread:

Spoiler:

Vegeta: “Looks like you don’t get it. Jiren and that incredible, overwhelming might of his... His true strength wasn’t all that far off from our own. There was no waste in its use. Did you notice? Even in the midst of battle, his spirit was completely relaxed outside of the moment of attack. Launching attacks from zero, his movements couldn’t be read, and contained explosive power. He was able to save stamina too.”

Vegeta notes that Jiren can likely do so “instinctually.”

So was it his skills that helped him win over his opponents? Boost his overall power up?

[ankokudaishogun]

So was it his skills that helped him win over his opponents? Boost his overall power up?

He was already stronger than them, but his skill made him unmatched.

EDIT:
"Skill" as EFFECTIVENESS multiplier and not POWER multiplier.

"stronger but in same class except with much superior skill" also fits with the anime portrayal of Full UI vs Jiren:
Goku's skill was enhanced exponentially when using the complete Ultra Instinct, so much Goku managed to surpass Jiren's fighting ability.
Jiren did then compensate by increasing his basic power-level with Ultra Full Power becoming able to match with UI.

basically:

• Normal Goku: Power Level of 8 multiplied by a Skill Level of 1.2=Fighting Level 9.6
• Normal Jiren: Power Level 10, Skill Level 1.5=Fighting Level 15
• UI Goku: Power Level 8, Skill Level 2.25=Fighting Level 18
• SFP Jiren: Power Level 12,5, Skill Level 1.5=Fighting Level 18,75
• UI Goku+rage boost=Power Level 8.4, Skill Level 2.25= Fighting Level 19

on a side note, I'd say Toyo's portrayal was actually the worst: Jiren did talk A LOT but in the end didn't SHOW much of what he preaching.
The closes would have been faking being weaker with Hit, but even that felt more combat pragmatism than skill.
And being outmaneuvered by Muten didn't help. Hell that scene could have worked much better by Muten praising Jiren doing exactly what he was reminding Goku.

[Xeno Goku Black]

It's gonna be awkward because the movie obviously didn't take the events of the manga into account.

But the manga likely will have a two page spread referencing the movie where you'd have to assume it would play out the same as it likely won't cover it so then you'd have to apply the movies scaling to the manga....for the manga.

[Cipher]

I don't know what manga you've all been reading, but I feel that description tracks with it pretty well?

Jiren hangs back from situations he can't assess yet (Universe 4). He lures Hit in through his own technique in order to take him out in one punch. He's stoic until the climax. He gets surprised by Kame Sennin's movement until he catches on and adjusts (keeping his power-output only to what he things is needed for his opponent), at which point he takes him out instantly. He gets surprised by SSBE Vegeta as well, until he adjusts and takes him out in one blow. Etc. It's why his dialogue to Vegeta in the ToP itself, about never using more power than what's necessary to overcome his opponent, feels believable in its context. It matches how we've seen him fight.

He also conserves power until the very end when he needs to combat Ultra Instinct and still outlasts, while keeping up with, it there. Likewise, he gradually raises his speed and power to keep up with/match Goku's movement at that point. We see him go from eating hits from Goku to catching and tossing him, and then putting him on the defensive.

Obviously I don't think this scene and the movie dialogue were written with each other in mind (impossible for the manga, and I doubt the allusion was supposed to be so specifically manga-referential for the film), but they dovetail in a seriously serendipitous way.

[Xeno Goku Black]

What about Gamma 1 and 2 being compared to Goku and Vegeta? Piccolo knows of Ultra Instinct, which he can turn into at will.

Gohan saying Cell Max probably wouldn't lose to either skyrockets Orange Piccolo to that level. Gohan far above it.

[ankokudaishogun]

I don't know what manga you've all been reading, but I feel that description tracks with it pretty well?

In my opinion you described feats of combat pragmatism, not fighting skill.

A big issue is that manga Jiren doesn't really confront anything "difficult" on a technical level.
Hell, Hit stopped using time-skip, what made him a tricky opponent, so he only had to fight him as a "normal" fighter.

Sure, Hit was SUPPOSED to have gotten much more skilled since the U6 tournament, but we never SEE him exercise that skill.

Anime Hit, the one who did focus on improving his time powers and not his fighting skill, otherwise gets a great skill showing against Dyspo by compensating for Dyspo's hearing overcoming the time-skip and even almost ringing him out with a skill-based trick.
And THAT Hit got all his attacks blocked and avoided and Jiren adapting to time-skip in an extremely short time.
THAT was a show of SKILL, not a simple "I'll fake being weaker to take him by surprise"

It's gonna be awkward because the movie obviously didn't take the events of the manga into account.

Not really: both Moro and Granola sagas are focused on Vegeta and Goku refining their ki manipulation\skills- with Spirit Control, UI and UE.
Hell, greater skill defeating greater power has been stated and shown multiple time in Granola Saga.

Nothing in the manga implies Jiren not being the most skilled fighter in the multiverse: Full UI Goku was still portrayed as the top dog in Granola Saga, with Granol having to wait for Goku's ability to degrade because he's still not used to the full UI state.

What about Gamma 1 and 2 being compared to Goku and Vegeta? Piccolo knows of Ultra Instinct, which he can turn into at will.

Piccolo doesn't necessarily know Goku can use UI at will.
And let's be honest, they are using Blue as frame of reference

[Cipher]

I don't know what manga you've all been reading, but I feel that description tracks with it pretty well?

In my opinion you described feats of combat pragmatism, not fighting skill.

A big issue is that manga Jiren doesn't really confront anything "difficult" on a technical level.
Hell, Hit stopped using time-skip, what made him a tricky opponent, so he only had to fight him as a "normal" fighter.

Sure, Hit was SUPPOSED to have gotten much more skilled since the U6 tournament, but we never SEE him exercise that skill.

Anime Hit, the one who did focus on improving his time powers and not his fighting skill, otherwise gets a great skill showing against Dyspo by compensating for Dyspo's hearing overcoming the time-skip and even almost ringing him out with a skill-based trick.
And THAT Hit got all his attacks blocked and avoided and Jiren adapting to time-skip in an extremely short time.
THAT was a show of SKILL, not a simple "I'll fake being weaker to take him by surprise"

1) Hit also has the Time-Slip in the manga.

2) I think you're inventing more criteria than are given in Vegeta's dialogue. He notes that Jiren is never outputting more power at any moment than exactly what's needed in the moment, and that's exactly what Jiren states (and shows) he's doing in the manga ToP arc as well.

Goku and Vegeta can punch things hard, and they can reduce their power for easier fights, but they can't innately output only exactly what's needed, which is what Vegeta realized help give Jiren an extra edge.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Piccolo doesn't necessarily know Goku can use UI at will.
And let's be honest, they are using Blue as frame of reference

But he does know that Goku and Vegeta can turn Ultra Instinct Sign and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution at will.

It's sort of an assumption to say he's just counting Blue.

[HeroR]

Piccolo doesn't necessarily know Goku can use UI at will.
And let's be honest, they are using Blue as frame of reference

But he does know that Goku and Vegeta can turn Ultra Instinct Sign and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution at will.

It's sort of an assumption to say he's just counting Blue.

If we used the anime as it stands, there’s nothing suggesting that Goku can use UI or any kind at will so it wouldn’t be something Piccolo would factors in. If we used only what happened in Broly, Goku couldn’t reach UI even when Broly pounded him and it wasn’t mentioned when Goku decided to try Fusion.

[ankokudaishogun]

1) Hit also has the Time-Slip in the manga.

He does have it but, to my recalling(which might be wrong) does not USE it against Jiren.
He fights as a regular martial artist. Not the best way to portray Jiren's superior skill... mostly because Toyotaro's regular fight scenes are kinda shit.

Plus: in the anime we DID see Hit going full-power against Goku AND WINNING, and ToP Hit was even better.
And Jiren vastly outskilled Hit.

2) I think you're inventing more criteria than are given in Vegeta's dialogue. He notes that Jiren is never outputting more power at any moment than exactly what's needed in the moment, and that's exactly what Jiren states (and shows) he's doing in the manga ToP arc as well.

I don't quite agree it has been portrayed that way in the manga.

The anime did a much better job in portraying Jiren countering attacks and being extremely precise in his fighting, something Toyotaro IMHO did fail to adequately portray in the manga

[Thani]

1) Hit also has the Time-Slip in the manga.

He does have it but, to my recalling(which might be wrong) does not USE it against Jiren.
He fights as a regular martial artist. Not the best way to portray Jiren's superior skill... mostly because Toyotaro's regular fight scenes are kinda shit.

Plus: in the anime we DID see Hit going full-power against Goku AND WINNING, and ToP Hit was even better.
And Jiren vastly outskilled Hit.

2) I think you're inventing more criteria than are given in Vegeta's dialogue. He notes that Jiren is never outputting more power at any moment than exactly what's needed in the moment, and that's exactly what Jiren states (and shows) he's doing in the manga ToP arc as well.

I don't quite agree it has been portrayed that way in the manga.

The anime did a much better job in portraying Jiren countering attacks and being extremely precise in his fighting, something Toyotaro IMHO did fail to adequately portray in the manga

Plus, Hit's time-skip in the manga works differently. It does not work on those who are stronger than him (which brings the question, he stops time for everyone besides those stronger than him... So does that mean that everyone with a higher ki can perceive time being stopped? All it takes is to be stronger than Hit and you can perceive TIME being stopped?)

Hit's time-skip in the anime has no such inherent weakness (although it shows by Goku being unaffected by it in KaiokenxBlue), so it makes Jiren's ability to counter by just reacting that fast all the more impressive.