Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Or he will master it in base when Toriyama goes with it, that is what it seems they are going with, given Whis' comment.
Which is funny because that makes the white transformation kind of like Sign, making Sign redundant. At least in the anime, and until now in the manga, where it seems to be also more versatile.

I wouldn't mind that happening. It would fit with what Old Kai said about transformations. Also how the strongest beings in the multiverse can access their full power without transforming. After mastering his final form, Goku might learn to use it all in base and not have to waste any energy on the transformations themselves.

Given what happened in Super Hero what Old Kai says really doesn’t matter.

Broly is among the strongest and he transforms. Overall, Dragon Ball has never pushed that no transformation was the right way.

[Skar]

Given what happened in Super Hero what Old Kai says really doesn’t matter.

Broly is among the strongest and he transforms. Overall, Dragon Ball has never pushed that no transformation was the right way.

That's true but I was thinking now Whis said Goku could use UI in his lower forms or something like that. I don't know if that's a manga only idea that might be ignored later or Toriyama was involved with it. Goku didn't use transformations in EoZ because it wasn't necessary at the time but it could be revealed later that he only no longer needs to transform to use his full power.

[HeroR]

Given what happened in Super Hero what Old Kai says really doesn’t matter.

Broly is among the strongest and he transforms. Overall, Dragon Ball has never pushed that no transformation was the right way.

That's true but I was thinking now Whis said Goku could use UI in his lower forms or something like that. I don't know if that's a manga only idea that might be ignored later or Toriyama was involved with it. Goku didn't use transformations in EoZ because it wasn't necessary at the time but it could be revealed later that he only no longer needs to transform to use his full power.

The fight with Uub at the EOZ is laughably short in the manga. People thinks so much about it because the anime expanded on it.

[Cipher]

The biggest one is that despite saying that he wants revenge against Frieza he wasted a bunch of time beating up Goku and Vegeta despite all the evidences that they didn't work for Frieza. Instead of listening to Oatmeal, Granolah took him off and bragged about how he's now the 'strongest in the universe'. And probably the biggest weird moment he was willing to kill himself against Vegeta and said that his revenge against Frieza have to wait until he goes to hell. Like...why? Especially when Granolah himself acknowledged that Vegeta and Goku were too young to be part of the invasion that killed his people, but he's still willing to die against Vegeta instead of going after the guy who was personally responsible.

Because he hates himself at that point. There are multiple panels of him looking at the fear the Sugarians view him with once they crash into the city in shock. He realizes he's become exactly the brute he thinks of the Saiyans as being.

Vegeta's feeling equally as guilty having come up against Granolah, which is why they're both willing to die during their fight until Goku and Monaito intervene.

This ... this is basically text.

[Shorty GZ2]

The biggest one is that despite saying that he wants revenge against Frieza he wasted a bunch of time beating up Goku and Vegeta despite all the evidences that they didn't work for Frieza. Instead of listening to Oatmeal, Granolah took him off and bragged about how he's now the 'strongest in the universe'. And probably the biggest weird moment he was willing to kill himself against Vegeta and said that his revenge against Frieza have to wait until he goes to hell. Like...why? Especially when Granolah himself acknowledged that Vegeta and Goku were too young to be part of the invasion that killed his people, but he's still willing to die against Vegeta instead of going after the guy who was personally responsible.

Because he hates himself at that point. There are multiple panels of him looking at the fear the Sugarians view him with once they crash into the city in shock. He realizes he's become exactly the brute he thinks of the Saiyans as being.

Vegeta's feeling equally as guilty having come up against Granolah, which is why they're both willing to die during their fight until Goku and Monaito intervene.

This ... this is basically text.

Even Granolah himself saying he's going to "hell" pretty much indicates that by that point, he's believes he's a bad enough person as much as the Saiyans/Saiyan he's facing.

Since Toriyama didn't design Omen, he probably wouldn't care how it's used. Toyotaro might have Goku reuse it until Toriyama decides for Goku to fully master UI. It's weird the manga already has him transform into UI at will but I guess he'll forget by the time Toriyama intends for it to happen.

Or he will master it in base when Toriyama goes with it, that is what it seems they are going with, given Whis' comment.
Which is funny because that makes the white transformation kind of like Sign, making Sign redundant. At least in the anime, and until now in the manga, where it seems to be also more versatile.

So depending on how this chapter goes Toyo would have to retcon what he wrote just last arc. And it all seems to.

Spoiler:

Goku comments on the time limit of the form on this chapter.

Isn’t just the time limit, Sign was outright called unstable and everyone said Goku used it wrong against Moro when he put emotions behind it. So Toyo did walk back what he said just the arc before. Not helping that normal UI has a time limit when that didn’t seem to be the case in Moro.

Also we don’t know what Toriyama wants with UI when he avoided the form in both of the movies he wrote.

Fighting at full power/"his full potential" with Sign wasn't explicitly noted as wrong, just that it would drain Sign more/make him less able to keep it up and it was a gamble due to Moro being much stronger than expected. When Merus notes when Goku tries powering up further in Sign to face Moro that it "won't work" as "by relying on sheer power alone, he can't make the most of UI's strength (presumably its dodging or its speed)", Goku had just been landing hits on Moro and only was felled from a point-blank full power mouthblast from him. So either way, it was moreso that Sign was just inferior in power to Moro's full one.

As for normal/perfected UI having a timelimit, we can surmise that the times in which Goku spent in it (or going in/out of it at will & when he got sapped of energy/got given energy) within his fights w/ Moro-73, Angel Moro, & Planet Moro weren't very long individually and as a whole. And he doesn't drop out of it specifically because he runs out of juice in this current arc, he gets knocked out of it because of much stamina needed to keep his power/speed/UI up at max which in turn very gradually drops his UI, & left him open to being pressure pointed by a stronger guy w/ the most superhumanly all-seeing eye in the universe.

[HeroR]

The biggest one is that despite saying that he wants revenge against Frieza he wasted a bunch of time beating up Goku and Vegeta despite all the evidences that they didn't work for Frieza. Instead of listening to Oatmeal, Granolah took him off and bragged about how he's now the 'strongest in the universe'. And probably the biggest weird moment he was willing to kill himself against Vegeta and said that his revenge against Frieza have to wait until he goes to hell. Like...why? Especially when Granolah himself acknowledged that Vegeta and Goku were too young to be part of the invasion that killed his people, but he's still willing to die against Vegeta instead of going after the guy who was personally responsible.

Because he hates himself at that point. There are multiple panels of him looking at the fear the Sugarians view him with once they crash into the city in shock. He realizes he's become exactly the brute he thinks of the Saiyans as being.

Vegeta's feeling equally as guilty having come up against Granolah, which is why they're both willing to die during their fight until Goku and Monaito intervene.

This ... this is basically text.

The prime issue I have with this is he wants to go to hell without even going for the person he thinks ruined his life. Instead, he wants to go to hell taking out a random Saiyan who wasn’t even at the invasion. Even if he believes he’s just as bad as the Saiyans, why would that leave Frieza off the hook?

And it being text doesn’t means it make much sense.

Fighting at full power/"his full potential" with Sign wasn't explicitly noted as wrong, just that it would drain Sign more/make him less able to keep it up and it was a gamble due to Moro being much stronger than expected. When Merus notes when Goku tries powering up further in Sign to face Moro that it "won't work" as "by relying on sheer power alone, he can't make the most of UI's strength (presumably its dodging or its speed)", Goku had just been landing hits on Moro and only was felled from a point-blank full power mouthblast from him. So either way, it was moreso that Sign was just inferior in power to Moro's full one.

As for normal/perfected UI having a timelimit, we can surmise that the times in which Goku spent in it (or going in/out of it at will & when he got sapped of energy/got given energy) within his fights w/ Moro-73, Angel Moro, & Planet Moro weren't very long individually and as a whole. And he doesn't drop out of it specifically because he runs out of juice in this current arc, he gets knocked out of it because of much stamina needed to keep his power/speed/UI up at max which in turn very gradually drops his UI, & left him open to being pressure pointed by a stronger guy w/ the most superhumanly all-seeing eye in the universe.

From my reading it was both that Moro was stronger and Goku misused UI. He tried to brute force power out of Sign and it made the form even more unstable. And it’s still a walk back since Goku is basically doing the same thing against Gas, but for some reason Sign is completely stable and stronger than completed UI.

The fight with Granolah’s clone wasn’t long either and Moro couldn’t take Goku out that fast despite him also having UI to some extent. That and there’s nothing suggests that he was even using that much energy against Granolah’s clone since he was easily handling him.

[Shorty GZ2]

The biggest one is that despite saying that he wants revenge against Frieza he wasted a bunch of time beating up Goku and Vegeta despite all the evidences that they didn't work for Frieza. Instead of listening to Oatmeal, Granolah took him off and bragged about how he's now the 'strongest in the universe'. And probably the biggest weird moment he was willing to kill himself against Vegeta and said that his revenge against Frieza have to wait until he goes to hell. Like...why? Especially when Granolah himself acknowledged that Vegeta and Goku were too young to be part of the invasion that killed his people, but he's still willing to die against Vegeta instead of going after the guy who was personally responsible.

Because he hates himself at that point. There are multiple panels of him looking at the fear the Sugarians view him with once they crash into the city in shock. He realizes he's become exactly the brute he thinks of the Saiyans as being.

Vegeta's feeling equally as guilty having come up against Granolah, which is why they're both willing to die during their fight until Goku and Monaito intervene.

This ... this is basically text.

The prime issue I have with this is he wants to go to hell without even going for the person he thinks ruined his life. Instead, he wants to go to hell taking out a random Saiyan who wasn’t even at the invasion. Even if he believes he’s just as bad as the Saiyans, why would that leave Frieza off the hook?

And it being text doesn’t means it make much sense.

To put it simply, it seems clear he just got way more caught up in the fight against Vegeta/his grudge against Saiyans in particular (mixed now with self-hatred for becoming like them) than his grudge against/his initial plan to go kill Freeza after dealing with Goku & Vegeta. It happens.

Fighting at full power/"his full potential" with Sign wasn't explicitly noted as wrong, just that it would drain Sign more/make him less able to keep it up and it was a gamble due to Moro being much stronger than expected. When Merus notes when Goku tries powering up further in Sign to face Moro that it "won't work" as "by relying on sheer power alone, he can't make the most of UI's strength (presumably its dodging or its speed)", Goku had just been landing hits on Moro and only was felled from a point-blank full power mouthblast from him. So either way, it was moreso that Sign was just inferior in power to Moro's full one.

As for normal/perfected UI having a timelimit, we can surmise that the times in which Goku spent in it (or going in/out of it at will & when he got sapped of energy/got given energy) within his fights w/ Moro-73, Angel Moro, & Planet Moro weren't very long individually and as a whole. And he doesn't drop out of it specifically because he runs out of juice in this current arc, he gets knocked out of it because of much stamina needed to keep his power/speed/UI up at max which in turn very gradually drops his UI, & left him open to being pressure pointed by a stronger guy w/ the most superhumanly all-seeing eye in the universe.

From my reading it was both that Moro was stronger and Goku misused UI. He tried to brute force power out of Sign and it made the form even more unstable. And it’s still a walk back since Goku is basically doing the same thing against Gas, but for some reason Sign is completely stable and stronger than completed UI.

The fight with Granolah’s clone wasn’t long either and Moro couldn’t take Goku out that fast despite him also having UI to some extent. That and there’s nothing suggests that he was even using that much energy against Granolah’s clone since he was easily handling him.

Goku going full power with Sign to match Moro's full power (viewed by Whis as an understandable gamble against the unexpectedly stronger Moro) at the expense of his previous conservation of stamina/power is noted/remarked differently from when he tries to burst SSB-like spurts out for more power against Moro at the expense of best utilisation of UI, and by the time he does the latter, Sign Goku's already lost his speed/reached his limit and either way/even if Goku hadn't bulked out (and made Sign more unstable), that final mouth attack by Moro would've finished him.
In this Gas instance, however, Goku has been training hard to hone UI even more to the point he can use the technique in his base + god forms (wherein the stronger the form, the better/"more accurate" the UI), his emotions (needed to be cleared for PUI) are in disarray after all of the personal revelations he's had throughout the day, and now he's being propelled by the same sort of Saiyan pride/pure drive to win which empowered Bardock (+ Vegeta I guess); so to a degree I can buy Goku going back to using Sign atm ("best suiting his current state of mind" + is technically his 2nd strongest form) & it being stronger/sharper than in Moro to the point of overpowering Gas (whilst during it, Goku does still acknowledge the pre-established stamina drain).

As for the Granolah/Moro UI case, I'd say that's more of a testament to how far ahead PUI Goku was from Moro in spite of him stealing UI, and a testament to the power of Granolah's evolved eye in how even in such a short duration of exertion by PUI Goku (who at the start of activation had 0 openings), it could spot openings starting to form (well, technically just the 1 that did) in PUI Goku that Granolah's well-suited vital-targeting fighting style could seize on (plus the real Granolah's teleportation being so quick that he instantly appeared and struck dead-onto that opening). It's not like anyone could've done so or taken advantage of such a weakness (like how Gas doesn't do so against PUI Goku & just fights/keeps up with him conventionally), just that Granolah then was a perfect/hard counter to PUI Goku.

[batistabus]

This chapter made me like Omen.

[Shorty GZ2]

This chapter isn't out yet though.

[HeroR]

Because he hates himself at that point. There are multiple panels of him looking at the fear the Sugarians view him with once they crash into the city in shock. He realizes he's become exactly the brute he thinks of the Saiyans as being.

Vegeta's feeling equally as guilty having come up against Granolah, which is why they're both willing to die during their fight until Goku and Monaito intervene.

This ... this is basically text.

The prime issue I have with this is he wants to go to hell without even going for the person he thinks ruined his life. Instead, he wants to go to hell taking out a random Saiyan who wasn’t even at the invasion. Even if he believes he’s just as bad as the Saiyans, why would that leave Frieza off the hook?

And it being text doesn’t means it make much sense.

To put it simply, it seems clear he just got way more caught up in the fight against Vegeta/his grudge against Saiyans in particular (mixed now with self-hatred for becoming like them) than his grudge against/his initial plan to go kill Freeza after dealing with Goku & Vegeta. It happens.

Fighting at full power/"his full potential" with Sign wasn't explicitly noted as wrong, just that it would drain Sign more/make him less able to keep it up and it was a gamble due to Moro being much stronger than expected. When Merus notes when Goku tries powering up further in Sign to face Moro that it "won't work" as "by relying on sheer power alone, he can't make the most of UI's strength (presumably its dodging or its speed)", Goku had just been landing hits on Moro and only was felled from a point-blank full power mouthblast from him. So either way, it was moreso that Sign was just inferior in power to Moro's full one.

As for normal/perfected UI having a timelimit, we can surmise that the times in which Goku spent in it (or going in/out of it at will & when he got sapped of energy/got given energy) within his fights w/ Moro-73, Angel Moro, & Planet Moro weren't very long individually and as a whole. And he doesn't drop out of it specifically because he runs out of juice in this current arc, he gets knocked out of it because of much stamina needed to keep his power/speed/UI up at max which in turn very gradually drops his UI, & left him open to being pressure pointed by a stronger guy w/ the most superhumanly all-seeing eye in the universe.

From my reading it was both that Moro was stronger and Goku misused UI. He tried to brute force power out of Sign and it made the form even more unstable. And it’s still a walk back since Goku is basically doing the same thing against Gas, but for some reason Sign is completely stable and stronger than completed UI.

The fight with Granolah’s clone wasn’t long either and Moro couldn’t take Goku out that fast despite him also having UI to some extent. That and there’s nothing suggests that he was even using that much energy against Granolah’s clone since he was easily handling him.

Goku going full power with Sign to match Moro's full power (viewed by Whis as an understandable gamble against the unexpectedly stronger Moro) at the expense of his previous conservation of stamina/power is noted/remarked differently from when he tries to burst SSB-like spurts out for more power against Moro at the expense of best utilisation of UI, and by the time he does the latter, Sign Goku's already lost his speed/reached his limit and either way/even if Goku hadn't bulked out (and made Sign more unstable), that final mouth attack by Moro would've finished him.
In this Gas instance, however, Goku has been training hard to hone UI even more to the point he can use the technique in his base + god forms (wherein the stronger the form, the better/"more accurate" the UI), his emotions (needed to be cleared for PUI) are in disarray after all of the personal revelations he's had throughout the day, and now he's being propelled by the same sort of Saiyan pride/pure drive to win which empowered Bardock (+ Vegeta I guess); so to a degree I can buy Goku going back to using Sign atm ("best suiting his current state of mind" + is technically his 2nd strongest form) & it being stronger/sharper than in Moro to the point of overpowering Gas (whilst during it, Goku does still acknowledge the pre-established stamina drain).

As for the Granolah/Moro UI case, I'd say that's more of a testament to how far ahead PUI Goku was from Moro in spite of him stealing UI, and a testament to the power of Granolah's evolved eye in how even in such a short duration of exertion by PUI Goku (who at the start of activation had 0 openings), it could spot openings starting to form (well, technically just the 1 that did) in PUI Goku that Granolah's well-suited vital-targeting fighting style could seize on (plus the real Granolah's teleportation being so quick that he instantly appeared and struck dead-onto that opening). It's not like anyone could've done so or taken advantage of such a weakness (like how Gas doesn't do so against PUI Goku & just fights/keeps up with him conventionally), just that Granolah then was a perfect/hard counter to PUI Goku.

Goku using UI in his other forms just gave him better dodge. That’s literally it. It didn’t make him stronger not even in an efficient way.

That and what Goku did against Moro in Sign wasn’t just ‘at the expense of best utilisation of UI’, the manga all but said he used UI wrong. Which was why it was so important for Goku to learn to calm down when faced with a shocked to his emotions instead of succumbing to them, which is what Merus ‘died’ for. So it’s a backtrack to suddenly say, ‘actually Goku doesn't have to learn to control his emotions to used UI, he can enhanced Signs with it because that his way’.

“now he's being propelled by the same sort of Saiyan pride/pure drive to win which empowered Bardock”

I’m going to have to call this out. There were far more stakes and reason for Goku to win against Moro yet Goku managed to clear his mind and stay true to himself and his own pride by trying to spare Moro, so I’m not buying that Goku suddenly feels this ‘Saiyan pride or pure drive to win’ against a foe who’s barely a localize threat. That and the Saiyan pride stuff already fall short when Goku embraced it twice already, one on Namek against Frieza and then allowing Broly to call him Kakarot.

“his emotions (needed to be cleared for PUI) are in disarray after all of the personal revelations he's had throughout the day”

His emotions were in disarray when he saw Merus die for him and he still controlled himself, which was how he completed UI. Ands he knew Merus unlike Bardock.

“acknowledge the pre-established stamina drain”

It wasn’t just a stamina drain. Signs was outright called unstable and it was only usable against Moro because Goku had to suppressed it. The moment Goku attempted to use Signs’ full power it became destabilize. For the lack of better words, Signs was a worst Super Saiyan 3 from the Buu Saga.

“I'd say that's more of a testament to how far ahead PUI Goku was from Moro in spite of him stealing UI”

They were evenly matched before Moro’s power backfired. So there was no huge power difference.

“plus the real Granolah's teleportation being so quick that he instantly appeared and struck dead-onto that opening”

It wasn’t teleportation. It was a speed blitz.

“It's not like anyone could've done so or taken advantage of such a weakness (like how Gas doesn't do so against PUI Goku & just fights/keeps up with him conventionally), just that Granolah then was a perfect/hard counter to PUI Goku.”

By that logic Granolah should have one-shotted Vegeta out of UE if he could just hit the right spot on anyone using his eye and they go down and we see that UE is about the same power as UI. Which really doesn’t match Granolah’s magic eye being a perfect counter to UI. He also didn’t used this pin-point attack against Gas when he wasn’t used to his power.

[OLKv3]

tl;dr Toyo retconned his previous arc because he needed to nerf Goku and wants Sign to be the focus for whatever reason

[Cipher]

Level of discourse this month:

Spoiler:

[OLKv3]

Level of discourse this month:

Spoiler:

I honestly don't know why I didn't see it coming, this is Toyotaro's thing. He loves creating scenarios so he can use weaker/older forms. He did it with AF, did it with SSG, does it with SSB, and now Sign

[HeroR]

Level of discourse this month:

Spoiler:

I don’t have an issue with ‘lower’ forms making comebacks, although Super Saiyan God really didn’t need to come back. Toyo was the one who called Signs an unstable form with horrible stamina. He could have easily made Signs enough to beat Moro like Sign vs Kelfa, despite its flaws and have Goku complete UI later, but he went out of his way to show how inefficient Sign was and how Goku needed to complete UI.not just completely it, but seemingly mastering the form to the point that he struck even with Angel Moro.

For the lack of better words, Toyo did it to himself.

[Shorty GZ2]

tl;dr Toyo retconned his previous arc because he needed to nerf Goku and wants Sign to be the focus for whatever reason

Level of discourse this month:

Spoiler:

I don’t have an issue with ‘lower’ forms making comebacks, although Super Saiyan God really didn’t need to come back. Toyo was the one who called Signs an unstable form with horrible stamina. He could have easily made Signs enough to beat Moro like Sign vs Kelfa, despite its flaws and have Goku complete UI later, but he went out of his way to show how inefficient Sign was and how Goku needed to complete UI.not just completely it, but seemingly mastering the form to the point that he struck even with Angel Moro.

For the lack of better words, Toyo did it to himself.

Not disagreeing that "Goku using Sign atm as he's having trouble w/ his emotions for PUI/his UI is not as sharp than Angels w/ 24/7 UI" is very much retconning/adding more blocks onto UI so Goku still has room for growth w/ it once he's finished reaching the peak lmao, it also is very much evidence of Toyo/Tori not esp planning ahead from the previous arc/writing themselves into a corner to get out of; but they can just mostly get away w/ it since UI is a whole diff/foreign & not too explicitly defined ballpark to anything Goku has tried to master before.

Goku using UI in his other forms just gave him better dodge. That’s literally it. It didn’t make him stronger not even in an efficient way.

That and what Goku did against Moro in Sign wasn’t just ‘at the expense of best utilisation of UI’, the manga all but said he used UI wrong. Which was why it was so important for Goku to learn to calm down when faced with a shocked to his emotions instead of succumbing to them, which is what Merus ‘died’ for. So it’s a backtrack to suddenly say, ‘actually Goku doesn't have to learn to control his emotions to used UI, he can enhanced Signs with it because that his way’.

I meant that before in Moro, he hadn't even gotten the handle of the UI technique itself to the point of Sign mostly just being a power/speed boost with a stamina drain. But now that he's developed a more honed/sharper grasp over the base technique to be able to use it in every form, it should follow suit for Sign, as "the gateway to Ultra Instinct"/closest form to perfect UI that isn't the silver haired PUI form. And well, when you say "the manga all but said he used UI wrong", that does mean they didn't actually say it or espouse it through Whis/Merus, in which what they do say/espouse is to not begrudge Goku for going full power vs Moro & remark that powering up extra more wouldn't work when we're shown the situation in which he'd have lost either way. Plus, Goku never said that he wasn't ever gonna forsake learning to control his emotions for UI (we'll likely see silver UI again in another self-circling cycle), just that Sign was the form which "best suited his current state of mind" (and ideally the base for a different PUI).

“now he's being propelled by the same sort of Saiyan pride/pure drive to win which empowered Bardock”

I’m going to have to call this out. There were far more stakes and reason for Goku to win against Moro yet Goku managed to clear his mind and stay true to himself and his own pride by trying to spare Moro, so I’m not buying that Goku suddenly feels this ‘Saiyan pride or pure drive to win’ against a foe who’s barely a localize threat. That and the Saiyan pride stuff already fall short when Goku embraced it twice already, one on Namek against Frieza and then allowing Broly to call him Kakarot.

“his emotions (needed to be cleared for PUI) are in disarray after all of the personal revelations he's had throughout the day”

His emotions were in disarray when he saw Merus die for him and he still controlled himself, which was how he completed UI. Ands he knew Merus unlike Bardock.

This is a whole different can of worms that I'm pretty sure others have argued in the last 2 chapter threads. But I'll say that what happened then (having to fight an omnicidal goat-android wizard & seeing his training mentor die in front of him) that he could emotionally shake off then doesn't esp correlate to now wherein he's 1. just listened to a recording of "pure Saiyan pride/drive to win" overpowering a would-be-stronger Gas, 2. just remembered repressed memories causing him to recontextualise his perception of his parents and race as a whole + his own self-perception, 3. is fighting "barely a localised threat" who is also the strongest guy in the universe who he himself failed to beat just 30 mins or so before (despite having calmed down to fight him/try tap into UI after seeing Granolah get his eyes/back blown out). I also wasn't a fan of "oh now Goku is embracing his heritage" in Broly due to the former thing on Namek you mentioned (Goku also said the Saiyans deserved/were fated to die then too lol), but I supposed I could take it & now this stuff in Granolah (mentioned prior) account when even the movie's director acknowledged that "In the original manga Goku may call himself a 'Saiyan raised on Earth', but I think that by meeting and battling the truly pure Saiyan Broli, he feels a renewed sense of Saiyan pride." Very small wiggle room there.

“acknowledge the pre-established stamina drain”

It wasn’t just a stamina drain. Signs was outright called unstable and it was only usable against Moro because Goku had to suppressed it. The moment Goku attempted to use Signs’ full power it became destabilize. For the lack of better words, Signs was a worst Super Saiyan 3 from the Buu Saga.

Sign is noted with that "maintaining the instability consumes an enormous amount of stamina", that is indeed a stamina drain (which Goku notes in his fight with Gas in it), plus as established, it was ultimately doomed for failure simply because it as it is/it at full power was weaker than Moro's full power (as Whis says). And yes, Merus does exclaim Goku can't keep the form up as much when he goes full power, but we do see Goku go toe to toe Moro for quite a while till he hits his limit & loses his speed. Plus, Sign being that in Moro doesn't preclude it strictly to being that in Granolah after Goku's advanced deeper into UI.

“I'd say that's more of a testament to how far ahead PUI Goku was from Moro in spite of him stealing UI”

They were evenly matched before Moro’s power backfired. So there was no huge power difference.

“plus the real Granolah's teleportation being so quick that he instantly appeared and struck dead-onto that opening”

It wasn’t teleportation. It was a speed blitz.

“It's not like anyone could've done so or taken advantage of such a weakness (like how Gas doesn't do so against PUI Goku & just fights/keeps up with him conventionally), just that Granolah then was a perfect/hard counter to PUI Goku.”

By that logic Granolah should have one-shotted Vegeta out of UE if he could just hit the right spot on anyone using his eye and they go down and we see that UE is about the same power as UI. Which really doesn’t match Granolah’s magic eye being a perfect counter to UI. He also didn’t used this pin-point attack against Gas when he wasn’t used to his power.

They fought evenly till when Goku starts landing devastating blows on Angel Moro that causes his regen to go out of wack. You can figure out they didn't fight for too long before then. And I'm not sure it's a speed blitz instead of teleportation by Granolah, when we see Granolah standing in his spaceship, disappearing the next panel, & next we see of him right in front of Goku to puncture him (and we have seen Granolah teleport before by that point). To a degree you're right on the vital-pointing thing, but we do see Granolah punch the same spot on UE Vegeta that he did to SSBE Vegeta that knocked him into base to almost 0 effect, which gets elaborated as part of UE's adrenaline-like ability + Granolah's super eye perfectly countering UI as a super dodge mode/technique doesn't mean it'll perfectly counter the berserker style of UE. Though in general (& in relation to him not using the pinpointing vs Gas despite assuming the same fighting position), it seems as the fights went on in this arc against stronger opponents, Granolah phased out using that pinpointing thing in favour of just fighting conventionally with punches, kicks, blasts (one can surmise reasons for it, but it's still unfortunate). Nonetheless, doesn't change that only Granolah could've so easily taken advantage of PUI's drawbacks.

[HeroR]

tl;dr Toyo retconned his previous arc because he needed to nerf Goku and wants Sign to be the focus for whatever reason

Level of discourse this month:

Spoiler:

I don’t have an issue with ‘lower’ forms making comebacks, although Super Saiyan God really didn’t need to come back. Toyo was the one who called Signs an unstable form with horrible stamina. He could have easily made Signs enough to beat Moro like Sign vs Kelfa, despite its flaws and have Goku complete UI later, but he went out of his way to show how inefficient Sign was and how Goku needed to complete UI.not just completely it, but seemingly mastering the form to the point that he struck even with Angel Moro.

For the lack of better words, Toyo did it to himself.

Not disagreeing that "Goku using Sign atm as he's having trouble w/ his emotions for PUI/his UI is not as sharp than Angels w/ 24/7 UI" is very much retconning/adding more blocks onto UI so Goku still has room for growth w/ it once he's finished reaching the peak lmao, it also is very much evidence of Toyo/Tori not esp planning ahead from the previous arc/writing themselves into a corner to get out of; but they can just mostly get away w/ it since UI is a whole diff/foreign & not too explicitly defined ballpark to anything Goku has tried to master before.

Goku using UI in his other forms just gave him better dodge. That’s literally it. It didn’t make him stronger not even in an efficient way.

That and what Goku did against Moro in Sign wasn’t just ‘at the expense of best utilisation of UI’, the manga all but said he used UI wrong. Which was why it was so important for Goku to learn to calm down when faced with a shocked to his emotions instead of succumbing to them, which is what Merus ‘died’ for. So it’s a backtrack to suddenly say, ‘actually Goku doesn't have to learn to control his emotions to used UI, he can enhanced Signs with it because that his way’.

I meant that before in Moro, he hadn't even gotten the handle of the UI technique itself to the point of Sign mostly just being a power/speed boost with a stamina drain. But now that he's developed a more honed/sharper grasp over the base technique to be able to use it in every form, it should follow suit for Sign, as "the gateway to Ultra Instinct"/closest form to perfect UI that isn't the silver haired PUI form. And well, when you say "the manga all but said he used UI wrong", that does mean they didn't actually say it or espouse it through Whis/Merus, in which what they do say/espouse is to not begrudge Goku for going full power vs Moro & remark that powering up extra more wouldn't work when we're shown the situation in which he'd have lost either way. Plus, Goku never said that he wasn't ever gonna forsake learning to control his emotions for UI (we'll likely see silver UI again in another self-circling cycle), just that Sign was the form which "best suited his current state of mind" (and ideally the base for a different PUI).

“now he's being propelled by the same sort of Saiyan pride/pure drive to win which empowered Bardock”

I’m going to have to call this out. There were far more stakes and reason for Goku to win against Moro yet Goku managed to clear his mind and stay true to himself and his own pride by trying to spare Moro, so I’m not buying that Goku suddenly feels this ‘Saiyan pride or pure drive to win’ against a foe who’s barely a localize threat. That and the Saiyan pride stuff already fall short when Goku embraced it twice already, one on Namek against Frieza and then allowing Broly to call him Kakarot.

“his emotions (needed to be cleared for PUI) are in disarray after all of the personal revelations he's had throughout the day”

His emotions were in disarray when he saw Merus die for him and he still controlled himself, which was how he completed UI. Ands he knew Merus unlike Bardock.

This is a whole different can of worms that I'm pretty sure others have argued in the last 2 chapter threads. But I'll say that what happened then (having to fight an omnicidal goat-android wizard & seeing his training mentor die in front of him) that he could emotionally shake off then doesn't esp correlate to now wherein he's 1. just listened to a recording of "pure Saiyan pride/drive to win" overpowering a would-be-stronger Gas, 2. just remembered repressed memories causing him to recontextualise his perception of his parents and race as a whole + his own self-perception, 3. is fighting "barely a localised threat" who is also the strongest guy in the universe who he himself failed to beat just 30 mins or so before (despite having calmed down to fight him/try tap into UI after seeing Granolah get his eyes/back blown out). I also wasn't a fan of "oh now Goku is embracing his heritage" in Broly due to the former thing on Namek you mentioned (Goku also said the Saiyans deserved/were fated to die then too lol), but I supposed I could take it & now this stuff in Granolah (mentioned prior) account when even the movie's director acknowledged that "In the original manga Goku may call himself a 'Saiyan raised on Earth', but I think that by meeting and battling the truly pure Saiyan Broli, he feels a renewed sense of Saiyan pride." Very small wiggle room there.

“acknowledge the pre-established stamina drain”

It wasn’t just a stamina drain. Signs was outright called unstable and it was only usable against Moro because Goku had to suppressed it. The moment Goku attempted to use Signs’ full power it became destabilize. For the lack of better words, Signs was a worst Super Saiyan 3 from the Buu Saga.

Sign is noted with that "maintaining the instability consumes an enormous amount of stamina", that is indeed a stamina drain (which Goku notes in his fight with Gas in it), plus as established, it was ultimately doomed for failure simply because it as it is/it at full power was weaker than Moro's full power (as Whis says). And yes, Merus does exclaim Goku can't keep the form up as much when he goes full power, but we do see Goku go toe to toe Moro for quite a while till he hits his limit & loses his speed. Plus, Sign being that in Moro doesn't preclude it strictly to being that in Granolah after Goku's advanced deeper into UI.

“I'd say that's more of a testament to how far ahead PUI Goku was from Moro in spite of him stealing UI”

They were evenly matched before Moro’s power backfired. So there was no huge power difference.

“plus the real Granolah's teleportation being so quick that he instantly appeared and struck dead-onto that opening”

It wasn’t teleportation. It was a speed blitz.

“It's not like anyone could've done so or taken advantage of such a weakness (like how Gas doesn't do so against PUI Goku & just fights/keeps up with him conventionally), just that Granolah then was a perfect/hard counter to PUI Goku.”

By that logic Granolah should have one-shotted Vegeta out of UE if he could just hit the right spot on anyone using his eye and they go down and we see that UE is about the same power as UI. Which really doesn’t match Granolah’s magic eye being a perfect counter to UI. He also didn’t used this pin-point attack against Gas when he wasn’t used to his power.

They fought evenly till when Goku starts landing devastating blows on Angel Moro that causes his regen to go out of wack. You can figure out they didn't fight for too long before then. And I'm not sure it's a speed blitz instead of teleportation by Granolah, when we see Granolah standing in his spaceship, disappearing the next panel, & next we see of him right in front of Goku to puncture him (and we have seen Granolah teleport before by that point). To a degree you're right on the vital-pointing thing, but we do see Granolah punch the same spot on UE Vegeta that he did to SSBE Vegeta that knocked him into base to almost 0 effect, which gets elaborated as part of UE's adrenaline-like ability + Granolah's super eye perfectly countering UI as a super dodge mode/technique doesn't mean it'll perfectly counter the berserker style of UE. Though in general (& in relation to him not using the pinpointing vs Gas despite assuming the same fighting position), it seems as the fights went on in this arc against stronger opponents, Granolah phased out using that pinpointing thing in favour of just fighting conventionally with punches, kicks, blasts (one can surmise reasons for it, but it's still unfortunate). Nonetheless, doesn't change that only Granolah could've so easily taken advantage of PUI's drawbacks.

The long story short of all of this that a retcon happened and you have to jump through hoops to explain why using Signs is a good idea after the last arc called it an unstable energy drained and Goku shouldn’t have an emotional clash when he controlled himself after he witnessed his latest mentor die because he failed to master UI. That and Goku in the middle of his battle with Great Ape Vegeta found out he murdered his own grandfather and he kept himself together better than Goku learning about his dad. Just not buying that.

Gas maybe ‘the strongest being in the universe’, but the fact is he isn’t more dangerous than Moro. The worst thing Gas has done is be a jerk. That and Broly works because Goku and Broly are remarkably similar so Goku saying ‘call me Kakarot’ reads like an acknowledgement that they share a similar bond. Not so much he’s going ‘Saiyan pride, ftw’. Plus Broly didn’t beat you over the head with this.

If Granolah can knocked anyone out with pressure points, it should work on everyone. Not just UI. Especially after Vegeta got tired in UE or noob new power Gas. Also, UI isn’t just dodging. Moro broke his arm hitting UI.

[Shorty GZ2]

The long story short of all of this that a retcon happened and you have to jump through hoops to explain why using Signs is a good idea after the last arc called it an unstable energy drained and Goku shouldn’t have an emotional clash when he controlled himself after he witnessed his latest mentor die because he failed to master UI. That and Goku in the middle of his battle with Great Ape Vegeta found out he murdered his own grandfather and he kept himself together better than Goku learning about his dad. Just not buying that.

Yep, pretty much. But here we are now, and explanations are needed/given, and I think there's at least enough sufficient justification for it to make Sign work here. And just because he could control his emotions then & is currently now experiencing a more sudden fundamental/internal conflict doesn't mean he can't control his emotions now (seeing as I mentioned that he did so after Granolah got wrecked in front of him). Plus, it's not like Goku's having a shuddering disabling mental breakdown atm from him learning "Saiyans" =/= "evil", he's continuing to keep fighting till he can't keep up as he did against Vegeta after finding out he killed his Grandpa. Just that in the latter occasion, he doesn't have a form/mindset that requires close to 0 degree of emotional imbalance.

Gas maybe ‘the strongest being in the universe’, but the fact is he isn’t more dangerous than Moro. The worst thing Gas has done is be a jerk. That and Broly works because Goku and Broly are remarkably similar so Goku saying ‘call me Kakarot’ reads like an acknowledgement that they share a similar bond. Not so much he’s going ‘Saiyan pride, ftw’. Plus Broly didn’t beat you over the head with this.

If Granolah can knocked anyone out with pressure points, it should work on everyone. Not just UI. Especially after Vegeta got tired in UE or noob new power Gas. Also, UI isn’t just dodging. Moro broke his arm hitting UI.

I don't like Gas either, but I don't see any use in trying to downplay his power as "the strongest in the universe" as presented in the manga or when he's kept up with or demolished both Goku & Vegeta (even in their Ultra forms) along with Granolah (around the same level) in fights, more than Moro 73/Angel Moro ever did to PUI Goku. And I don't really buy the "Goku/Broly very similar kindred spirits" thing myself, with M20 "not beating one over the head with it" in practice equates to such a bond barely even existing in the movie beyond interpretive subtext till the ending, and as you said (which others have echoed) that in theory, Goku already declared himself a Saiyan on Namek.

In theory, possibly the insta-KO pressure points could work on everyone. In practice (as said before), Granolah seems to stop going for these pressure points after he knocks Vegeta out of SSBE, and then just uses powerful physical blows and blasts like a regular fighter. Again, as said before, I could make up any reason for why he just doesn't do so anymore (perhaps he realised they wouldn't work as well now vs stronger foes, he hasn't found good opportunities to nail vital points, etc), but they'd just be conjecture. As for the Moro moment regarding "when UI is honed to this extent, the body will automatically grow sturdier as necessary", PUI Goku was looking right at (perceiving) Moro the entire time he decided to go lunge & thrust his arm at his chest. In that case, it's not hard for one/one's body to tense to tank a clearly telegraphed incoming hit (keeping in mind that UI in the manga is generally defined as a subconscious attack-dodging technique lol).

[HeroR]

The long story short of all of this that a retcon happened and you have to jump through hoops to explain why using Signs is a good idea after the last arc called it an unstable energy drained and Goku shouldn’t have an emotional clash when he controlled himself after he witnessed his latest mentor die because he failed to master UI. That and Goku in the middle of his battle with Great Ape Vegeta found out he murdered his own grandfather and he kept himself together better than Goku learning about his dad. Just not buying that.

Yep, pretty much. But here we are now, and explanations are needed/given, and I think there's at least enough sufficient justification for it to make Sign work here. And just because he could control his emotions then & is currently now experiencing a more sudden fundamental/internal conflict doesn't mean he can't control his emotions now (seeing as I mentioned that he did so after Granolah got wrecked in front of him). Plus, it's not like Goku's having a shuddering disabling mental breakdown atm from him learning "Saiyans" =/= "evil", he's continuing to keep fighting till he can't keep up as he did against Vegeta after finding out he killed his Grandpa. Just that in the latter occasion, he doesn't have a form/mindset that requires close to 0 degree of emotional imbalance.

Gas maybe ‘the strongest being in the universe’, but the fact is he isn’t more dangerous than Moro. The worst thing Gas has done is be a jerk. That and Broly works because Goku and Broly are remarkably similar so Goku saying ‘call me Kakarot’ reads like an acknowledgement that they share a similar bond. Not so much he’s going ‘Saiyan pride, ftw’. Plus Broly didn’t beat you over the head with this.

If Granolah can knocked anyone out with pressure points, it should work on everyone. Not just UI. Especially after Vegeta got tired in UE or noob new power Gas. Also, UI isn’t just dodging. Moro broke his arm hitting UI.

I don't like Gas either, but I don't see any use in trying to downplay his power as "the strongest in the universe" as presented in the manga or when he's kept up with or demolished both Goku & Vegeta (even in their Ultra forms) along with Granolah (around the same level) in fights, more than Moro 73/Angel Moro ever did to PUI Goku. And I don't really buy the "Goku/Broly very similar kindred spirits" thing myself, with M20 "not beating one over the head with it" in practice equates to such a bond barely even existing in the movie beyond interpretive subtext till the ending, and as you said (which others have echoed) that in theory, Goku already declared himself a Saiyan on Namek.

In theory, possibly the insta-KO pressure points could work on everyone. In practice (as said before), Granolah seems to stop going for these pressure points after he knocks Vegeta out of SSBE, and then just uses powerful physical blows and blasts like a regular fighter. Again, as said before, I could make up any reason for why he just doesn't do so anymore (perhaps he realised they wouldn't work as well now vs stronger foes, he hasn't found good opportunities to nail vital points, etc), but they'd just be conjecture. As for the Moro moment regarding "when UI is honed to this extent, the body will automatically grow sturdier as necessary", PUI Goku was looking right at (perceiving) Moro the entire time he decided to go lunge & thrust his arm at his chest. In that case, it's not hard for one/one's body to tense to tank a clearly telegraphed incoming hit (keeping in mind that UI in the manga is generally defined as a subconscious attack-dodging technique lol).

It really doesn’t work, imo, because Goku simply doesn’t have a history of losing focus after an emotional shock. The closest he came was going Super Saiyan and Krillin’s first death. Heck, Goku kept his head together after both of his sons and Earth got blown up by Buu. That and UI isn’t about having no emotions, just controlling them.

I’m not downplaying his power. It’s just a fact that he isn’t more dangerous than Moro. Like Frieza in Broly wasn’t the strongest by any means, but he was the most dangerous since he was the reason Broly went crazy. Kid Buu wasn’t the strongest Buu, but he was the most dangerous.

Except Goku only showed ‘Saiyan pride’ in allowing Broly to used his Saiyan name. It isn’t like he told everyone to call him Kakarot. Especially when Goku tried to reason with Broly. Keep in mind, outside of the U6 Saiyans, Broly is the first Saiyan he met that wasn’t a mass-murdering nut job.

The issue is that the pressure point seemed to only exist to KO UI Goku. Then it got nerf by Vegeta withstanding it in Blue and then Granolah randomly stopped using it. And Toyo has done stuff like this before.

UI is automatic to the point that his body should have harden without Goku seeing Granolah. That’s what UI is for.

[Shorty GZ2]

It really doesn’t work, imo, because Goku simply doesn’t have a history of losing focus after an emotional shock. The closest he came was going Super Saiyan and Krillin’s first death. Heck, Goku kept his head together after both of his sons and Earth got blown up by Buu. That and UI isn’t about having no emotions, just controlling them.

I’m not downplaying his power. It’s just a fact that he isn’t more dangerous than Moro. Like Frieza in Broly wasn’t the strongest by any means, but he was the most dangerous since he was the reason Broly went crazy. Kid Buu wasn’t the strongest Buu, but he was the most dangerous.

Except Goku only showed ‘Saiyan pride’ in allowing Broly to used his Saiyan name. It isn’t like he told everyone to call him Kakarot. Especially when Goku tried to reason with Broly. Keep in mind, outside of the U6 Saiyans, Broly is the first Saiyan he met that wasn’t a mass-murdering nut job.

The issue is that the pressure point seemed to only exist to KO UI Goku. Then it got nerf by Vegeta withstanding it in Blue and then Granolah randomly stopped using it. And Toyo has done stuff like this before.

UI is automatic to the point that his body should have harden without Goku seeing Granolah. That’s what UI is for.

You're right that he doesn't have a history of losing focus after an emotional shock, and right now isn't really an exception considering he'd just turned into/been in the silver Perfected UI which does normally require calmness of mind/emotional control even when he later says in Sign that "his mind isn't at peace atm". It's moreso that even in his history of keeping focus post-shocks, Goku has (as he says in Moro) normally had his emotions all over the place whenever he's fighting, with in particular the emotions from what he's learned about himself/his race/"Saiyan pride" today now buoying him to use a (in theory) weaker form to better utilise those feelings to the max than the (in theory) stronger silver form.

Obviously not since Gas (& the Heeters) aren't omnicidal planet eaters like Moro but they just want to get rid of them (the Saiyans + Granolah), then Freeza, then rule the universe. Though I'm not sure why this is supposed to be a mark against Gas being something worth Goku (& Vegeta) having the pure "Saiyan" drive to win above all else against since nonetheless, he's a strong threatening foe who's refused to leave at any chance Goku's given him (& the Heeters).

This is what I mean in that I don't really buy the supposed Goku-Broly "fellow pure Saiyan" bond that gets exposited to exist in the M20 ending to the point of Goku allowing him to use his Saiyan name, as it barely exists if it did at all in the past 1hr-ish of fighting (no, I don't think the God Bind scene is proof of a bond, esp when Wrathful Broly rejects the overture and continues smashing Goku). Seemed more like a cooked-up reason to have Broly call Goku by "Kakarot" as a neat-ish reference to the old Broly films wherein he does so.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you on the Granolah pressure pointing thing, I'd like to know where it's gone too lmao (he even takes up the same stance in his Gas fight yet he doesn't use it there lol)
Chances are Toyo prob phased it out as it was an easy win button for early fights & it may or may not pop back for the finale (like he did to an extent with Moro's absorption).

The difference between UI's body blocking Moro and it not blocking Granolah is that right at the time of the latter, PUI Goku was visibly frazzled from confusion over Granolah's body dissipating and the revelation he was a clone (to which Granolah was able to travel and thrust in front of him faster than his body/UI could react), unlike wherein he (and I suppose his UI/body) was fully consciously aware of Moro going in to attack him after the Senzu (and the possibility that he would do so).

[OLKv3]

Goku is trapped in the Ultra Instinct loop until Toriyama finally has him fully master it in animation. So manga Goku will continue to master UI, only to suck at it, then master it again, only to suck at it, and repeat