Akira Toriyama getting cancelled (not really: contextless, disingenuous social media videos)

[Shaddy]

Relative to this discussion, one can only hope you're the only one who feels that way, because it's a stupid-ass way to feel. I'm still waiting patiently (adamantly?) for the explanation as to how "when you insult the rape comic, you're insulting JAPAN!!!!" is a less-disrespectful take than "perhaps making the rape comic was a bad idea".

[Kunzait_83]

Sure. Call it "Americasplaining" if you want, that's catchy.

As I said, I'm not here to have a discussion about Americasplaining to you. I'm just saying you're engaging in it, it's in general not appreciated, and you should probably be a bit more aware of it. My suggestion has always been for you to seek out other communities where you're the only American and have your discussions about Americasplaining there, rather than acting like the one person telling you about it in an American-heavy community is the only person that feels this way.

Thanks for at least clarifying that point.

Two questions then:

1) Do you think that if someone happens to be from America, that they are under no circumstances able to voice ANY criticism of others if that other person they're criticizing happens to be from another country? Are all Americans just blanket "banned" in your eyes from ever voicing ANY criticism towards ANYONE who happens to be from another country?

What would an American have to say or do in your view to be able to "earn the right" (so to speak) to voice a criticism of someone who happens to be from another country?

2) What leads you to assume that people in this thread (particularly Zephyr in this case, since this was directed straight at him) have not already engaged with other people internationally about how America is viewed? What leads you to believe that people in this thread (including Zephyr) are in any way unaware of how the rest of the world views America? What has Zephyr or anyone else in here said (either in this thread, or elsewhere) to lead you to this conclusion?

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm an American that has the audacity to teach Germans. I must be at the top of the Americasplaining food chain.

[Adamant]

I edited the following into my previous post, but I guess I did it too late for you to see it:

Kunzait, I don't want to have this conversation because I DON'T want to present myself as an ambassador. That's why I said to seek out international communities so you can have it with hundreds of others and learn what they think about this subject, both individually and commonly as a group.

But in short, just to clarify:

1) Do you think that if someone happens to be from America, that they are under no circumstances able to voice ANY criticism of others if that other person they're criticizing happens to be from another country? Are all Americans just blanket "banned" in your eyes from ever voicing ANY criticism towards ANYONE who happens to be from another country?

What would an American have to say or do in your view to be able to "earn the right" (so to speak) to voice a criticism of someone who happens to be from another country?

It's less about "being banned" and more about being aware that the world at large is incredibly tired of Americasplaining and thus not super willing to care about criticism from Americans.

Also, I was primarily talking about criticizing of culture, not people.

2) What leads you to assume that people in this thread (particularly Zephyr in this case, since this was directed straight at him) have not already engaged with other people internationally about how America is viewed? What leads you to believe that people in this thread (including Zephyr) are in any way unaware of how the rest of the world views America? What has Zephyr or anyone else in here said (either in this thread, or elsewhere) to lead you to this conclusion?

It was originally particularly aimed at eledoremassis02, who made the original comment I replied to.

And it seems pretty clear people weren't super aware of the fact that this is a common opinion about Americans based on how much I had to clarify what I was talking about :/ If people had genuinely engaged international communities to learn what some common criticisms of American culture is, they'd know this.

[Zephyr]

2) What leads you to assume that people in this thread (particularly Zephyr in this case, since this was directed straight at him) have not already engaged with other people internationally about how America is viewed? What leads you to believe that people in this thread (including Zephyr) are in any way unaware of how the rest of the world views America? What has Zephyr or anyone else in here said (either in this thread, or elsewhere) to lead you to this conclusion?

As Adamant himself clarified, I wasn't being singled out. Fairly positive he was using the royal "you". After all, I haven't made any comments about Japanese culture in the thread.

---

Maybe you just mean "voicing critical opinions about other cultures"? "Americans are well known for criticizing other cultures". I guess that's similar to "men are well known for explaining things to women who already know well enough the thing being explained". Mainsplaining, but instead its with regards to national social dynamics rather than gender social dynamics? A "holy shit, we get it, just stay in your lane already"? In that sense, I could see your point as a "be mindful that even though you are an individual with a valid point of view, you don't need to voice it at every turn, give other people the chance to contribute their voice as well".

Sure. Call it "Americasplaining" if you want, that's catchy.

Cool, makes sense. All that being said though: it's not as if Americans posting their views on aspects of Japanese culture somehow prevents non-Americans from doing the same. We're not competing for the floor. Threads here don't have post-limits. Non-Americans are just as welcome to make contributions to this, and any, topic.

As you yourself point out, this is an American-based message board. Most of the posters are going to be American. If there's a genuine issue to be raised, and all of the Americans (read: the majority of the posters) simply sit back silently and waiting for non-Americans to raise the issue instead, then it's less likely that the issue will be raised. Because, again, most of the posters here are going to be American. You're practically asking for something like the bystander effect to occur. "I don't need to raise this concern, because surely others will!" Okay, sure. But what if not very many do? What if none do? While it's obviously unlikely that there'd be zero non-Americans discussing the issue, we'd still be (needlessly, I feel) reducing the amount of discussion that could otherwise be had on the topic. Seems stifling, honestly.

Do measures need to be taken to ensure that all of the non-American posters get to have their word first? Should every non-American member be notified whenever a thread discussing Japanese culture comes up, so they know it's their time to shine? I don't know where every poster in this thread is from. I don't know how many non-Americans spoke on Japanese culture in this thread. I don't know how many have "answered the call". I know a few have (at least: one from the UK, one from Canada, one from Turkey). It seems that more of the posts here have been from Americans, and that makes sense because it's an American message board.

Did the fact that American posters were posting about it discourage other non-American posters from contributing as much as they otherwise would have? If so, then I'm not sure what someone would expect, honestly. This is an American message board dedicated to a Japanese franchise. If you want American posters to abstain from discussing Japanese culture, you might as well be asking for a significantly less active message board. Should American message boards simply not have threads at all criticizing any aspect of any non-American culture?

If any non-American posters feel intimidated or discouraged from contributing because of all of those made by American posters, that's shitty, and it makes me feel bad. At the same time, though, again: American message board about Japanese franchise. Not sure what else a non-American signing up for an account here would be expecting.

And it seems pretty clear people weren't super aware of the fact that this is a common opinion about Americans based on how much I had to clarify what I was talking about :/ If people had genuinely engaged international communities to learn what some common criticisms of American culture is, they'd know this.

That you had to clarify that you were talking about 'Americasplaining' doesn't mean that people didn't know about 'Americasplaining'. It means that they didn't know 'Americasplaining' is what you were talking about.

[LoganForkHands73]

Is this the international-scale equivalent of Jordan Peterson telling people to clean their rooms?

As another European, complaining that this mostly American-made site is too dominated by American opinions is just silly and more than a bit prejudiced. It's been said many times already, but these INDIVIDUAL opinions don't reflect the entirety of a country or culture, just as Toriyama's problematic comments don't reflect the entirety of Japan.

I've interacted with more than enough of the "international community". French, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Polish, Finnish, Israeli, Bahaman, Japanese, etc. Most of them that I've been friends with have absolutely no strong opinion on "Americasplaining". So, as someone who has gathered their opinions on the matter, does that make me qualified to say Toriyama's comments are a bit weird?

[jjgp1112]

It was originally particularly aimed at eledoremassis02, who made the original comment I replied to.

And it seems pretty clear people weren't super aware of the fact that this is a common opinion about Americans based on how much I had to clarify what I was talking about :/ If people had genuinely engaged international communities to learn what some common criticisms of American culture is, they'd know this.

My brother in Christ, we are all aware of how much America is criticized for its jingoistic imprealistic manifest destinyistic bullshit and understand where that criticism comes from...what we're not understanding is how that disqualifies every single American individual from having a critical thought about other cultures, as if we're all a monolith that won't stop until every culture is eating cheeseburgers, playing gridiron football and having orgies with bald eagles.

[Kunzait_83]

I'm an American that has the audacity to teach Germans. I must be at the top of the Americasplaining food chain.

For context: Kamicolo9 (who is indeed American) actually does IRL teach college abroad in Germany.

Would LOVE to hear how Adamant views that particular dynamic.

That's why I said to seek out international communities so you can have it with hundreds of others and learn what they think about this subject, both individually and commonly as a group.

Except... yeah, I HAVE done that. And since I know them very well IRL, I also know for a fact that guys like Zephyr and Kamicolo9 have also done exactly that in the past. And I'd be willing to bet that there are a good amount of folks in this thread (and on the forum in general) who have also done that: this being the internet, a global communication tool, and whatnot. And this being a forum about a comic/cartoon of international origins with an international audience.

I get that Americans are very oftentimes in many cases a... particularly xenophobic and hermetic society. But FAR from all of us here in this country are like that. And this isn't just a typical "not all blank" argument: there is a MASSIVELY vocal segment of the broader American population who ARE internationally engaged with the broader international community and who ARE more than aware of our faults and failings and who fight and argue against those who perpetuate them here on a daily basis. Just because that segment of the populace has lost a ton of ground from the more bullheadedly ignorant portion of the country in recent years doesn't in any way mean they aren't still here and aren't still trying to turn shit around again.

You starting off on the assumption that anyone in this thread who is American, by virtue of their being American, must therefore be in the "ignorant and doesn't about how the world looks at us and what our faults are" camp is frankly more than a bit prejudicial and presumptuous on your end in a "you're guilty until proven innocent" kind of way.

It's less about "being banned" and more about being aware that the world at large is incredibly tired of Americasplaining and thus not super willing to care about criticism from Americans.

Except that myself, and at least a good few people who've been posting in this thread ARE aware of those things. Soooo... yeah. We're aware and we've BEEN aware of all this stuff for like... in some cases (such as mine) literally DECADES now. Sooooo... we still not allowed to say "hey this thing that some guy who happens to be from another country said back in the day was kinda fucked up?" Like, what's the standard and threshold here exactly?

Also, I was primarily talking about criticizing of culture, not people.

And here's the most important, key thing in all this: no one in this thread (except for you and apparently eledoremassis02) was talking about "cultures". They were talking about Toriyama: who's just one guy. One guy who in NO WAY stands in for another culture. No single human being does or should. People here were (rightly) criticizing Akira Toriyama, as an individual person (irrespective of what culture he comes form) for saying some things about sexual assault back in the day that were pretty damn stupid and awful (to put it kindly).

This is why, without having initially clarified that you were talking specifically to eledoremassis02, most folks in this thread (myself included) were beyond puzzled for a bit as to why exactly you were even bringing up cultural criticism or relativism in a discussion that up to that point has absolutely jack shit to do with those things.

And it seems pretty clear people weren't super aware of the fact that this is a common opinion about Americans based on how much I had to clarify what I was talking about :/ If people had genuinely engaged international communities to learn what some common criticisms of American culture is, they'd know this.

I think you're confusing things here. People aren't asking you to repeatedly clarify your statements because they're "unaware how the rest of the world and its international communities views America". Many folks here (including myself and at least a few folks in this thread who I know personally very well off the forums) are and have long been more than well aware of this.

They're asking you to clarify your statements here because they are genuinely and justly perplexed as to what the actual fuck this has to do AT ALL with the topic that was originally being discussed: which is "Stupid Shit That Toriyama as an Individual Has Said 30 Fucking Years Ago", and not "Japanese Cultural Norms".

Your points are confusing to people here because you didn't make it clear at first that your comments were mainly directed at the only other specific user here who brought "culture" up into the discussion (while everyone else was just keeping it focused around Toriyama as a single person). And they're asking you to clarify for THAT reason, and NOT because they're Ignoramous American Pigs who don't know or care how much the rest of the world thinks they're loudmouthed assholes.

[Koitsukai]

I could understand the argument if fucking Ted Cruz was here ranting about Japan, but for kami's sake, the north americans on this site must be the least aMeRiKa type that I've ever encountered online. Talk about barking at the wrong tree, here.
I mean, it's almost 2023, not 1969, we all know why the world is what it is, come on, now.

Not to mention the fallacy behind it, if something is wrong, bad, or in poor taste, it will be so no matter who points it out.

[Dr. Casey]

As far as I'm aware, the sketchy shit he's done has all come from one particular time period.

Yeah, that's why I don't want to attack him over either Lady Red or the daughter joke. 1987 was a long time ago. For all we know, he was already wincing whenever he randomly remembered the joke in 1988 and thinking to himself "that was a really fucking weird joke I made last year, why did I say that?" And I wouldn't be surprised if current Toriyama wouldn't want to read Lady Red and that if he was forced to read it would go "what the fuck, young me was weird." Criticizing and bashing and hating Lady Red is fine obviously, and if others want to extend their animosity to Toriyama himself that's their business; I just personally don't want to judge someone harshly for something this long in the past when I know nothing about whether it applies to their current self.

[Shaddy]

I mean, Toriyama's work has displayed awful gender and sexual politics plenty of times since then.

[Dr. Casey]

I mean, Toriyama's work has displayed awful gender and sexual politics plenty of times since then.

Maybe, yeah... I know that he was still taking LGBT pot shots in 1995 (I found the negative depiction of the gay character in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai annoying/offensive), but that's the most recent example I can think of. I don't know anything about what Toriyama's said and done during the 00s/10s/20s so there might be more modern examples than that.

[WittyUsername]

I’ve obviously never met Toriyama, but he doesn’t strike me as the kind of person who does much self-reflection. He mostly just seems like an absent-minded nerd. In fact, he probably doesn’t even remember all the off-color jokes he made back in the day.

[Majin Buu]

This is why, without having initially clarified that you were talking specifically to eledoremassis02, most folks in this thread (myself included) were beyond puzzled for a bit as to why exactly you were even bringing up cultural criticism or relativism in a discussion that up to that point has absolutely jack shit to do with those things.

This should be called "pulling a Sabat."

[DBZAOTA482]

I'm sure Toriyama ain't too proud of the self-depreciate jokes he made in the past, but he doesn't have to apologize for anything.

[JulieYBM]

I'm sure Toriyama ain't too proud of the self-depreciate jokes he made in the past, but he doesn't have to apologize for anything.

Is this really a point you think that you need to make? Is this really the case you want to take pro bono like this?

[DBZAOTA482]

I'm sure Toriyama ain't too proud of the self-depreciate jokes he made in the past, but he doesn't have to apologize for anything.

Is this really a point you think that you need to make? Is this really the case you want to take pro bono like this?

Everything that comes out of my mouth has a point, sis.

[Brodes]

I'm sure Toriyama ain't too proud of the self-depreciate jokes he made in the past, but he doesn't have to apologize for anything.

Is this really a point you think that you need to make? Is this really the case you want to take pro bono like this?

Everything that comes out of my mouth has a point, sis.

I've been watching you post for years, and I dont think this is correct.

[MasenkoHA]

I'm sure Toriyama ain't too proud of the self-depreciate jokes he made in the past, but he doesn't have to apologize for anything.

Self deprecation humor is fun though and doesn't involve punching down groups you're not part of.

[DBZAOTA482]

Is this really a point you think that you need to make? Is this really the case you want to take pro bono like this?

Everything that comes out of my mouth has a point, sis.

I've been watching you post for years, and I dont think this is correct.

That sounds kinda sus, my dude (tte).