Is Dragon Ball the biggest manga/anime series globally?

[Kunzait_83]

Whatever the case,

Ah, well nevertheless...

if Toriyama was actively trying to make the next Hokuto no Ken, we'd be seeing a lot more hyper masculine muscular men as shonen protagonists.

My dude... you've SEEN Dragon Ball before haven't you?

Spoiler:

I swear, too many of you folks on this site in general keep confusing "blend of whimsical, kooky humor with face-bashing, bone-snapping kung fu" with "literally just the Japanese Carebears".

I should also add that because I have actual, living memory of following Dragon Ball during much of its original Japanese run in the early 90s, I remember well a time where there were a more than a few disgruntled Toriyama fans who got into him primarily through Dr. Slump in the 80s and while they were initially just as onboard with Dragon Ball in its beginnings, they had for some time by the time I had gotten into the series (circa the Cell arc) grown massively disenchanted with Dragon Ball the further it went on, specifically because of how much more violent and more purely martial arts focused it had become.

The overwhelmingly most common comparison that was cited with which DB was DIRECTLY compared against CONSTANTLY in this regard was... Fist of the North Star.

Instead Goku was a boy who grew into a man both physically and mentally as the story went along, which was fresh and original for the time.

Except... it wasn't? Protagonists aging across decades in a story is a narrative device that's literally as old as storytelling itself. Calling this "original" in the 1980s, much less citing freaking Dragon Ball as being one of the first (or even most popular) to do it is just... I don't have a nicer word for this other than ignorant.

Everything from Jane Eyre to David Copperfield have used the "follow the main character as they age from kid to adult across the story". Its not even new to freaking Wuxia, which have some of the oldest stories in the genre following characters across literal generations.

Guys... I know I'm a broken record with this stuff, but please, I'm begging you... read and watch things other than Shonen manga and anime (or children's media in general). If even just from time to time.

[JulieYBM]

Most of my favorite works are art are outside of shounen so I definitely suggest partaking in other types of art, too. Your understanding of Dragon Ball will never be fully rounded out if you only consume Dragon Ball and works from JUMP.

[jjgp1112]

Torishima told Toriyama to go the battle manga route because the readership for Dragon Ball was declining. He never pointed to Hokuto no Ken specifically.

In fact, Toriyama went out of his way to subvert what HnK was doing.

Its literally been stated flat out directly by Torishima himself.

M: Even so, how did you come up with the ideas behind organizing the story?

Torishima: I studied Fist of the North Star.

Matsuyama: Oh! Fist of the North Star?! That’s surprising.

Torishima: It was because the popularity of Dragon Ball had declined, so I had no choice but to study it. The most overwhelmingly popular series at the time was Fist of the North Star.

Matsuyama: That’s true, isn’t it?

Torishima: So I researched it and read up to 3 volumes of Fist of the North Star.

Matsuyama: What? To volume 3? Only up to that point?!

Torishima: You only need to read that much of Fist of the North Star to understand it. I didn’t care for it that much.

Matsuyama: Oh?! How can you say that?!

Torishima: Nah, it’s alright because it’s just my personal preference. I don’t like it. But Fist of the North Star was so popular at the time, so I read it carefully and studied it, and that’s how the future of Dragon Ball evolved. I decided the policies.

Whatever the case, if Toriyama was actively trying to make the next Hokuto no Ken, we'd be seeing a lot more hyper masculine muscular men as shonen protagonists.

Instead Goku was a boy who grew into a man both physically and mentally as the story went along, which was fresh and original for the time.

Shonen protagonists going from brolic manly men to skinny whimps was less Dragon Ball and more a bastardization of Yu Yu Hakusho's appeal to female readers.

[JulieYBM]

The bishounen shounen leads are so cute. I really like the shift to various types of bodies beyond just copying the large-muscled look of Dragon Ball. I think it also adds a nice level of femininity to the male characters' looks—I just wish we could get that a big more in their writing, too. Character design has become more fervently coded these days so I can see how a creator wouldn't want to code their lead character as overtly masculine while saving that look for a character who is supposed to look tough.

Speaking as a fujoshi, I really like a variety of things, so either/or choice of design works for me so long as it's attractive.

[DBZAOTA482]

Its literally been stated flat out directly by Torishima himself.

Whatever the case, if Toriyama was actively trying to make the next Hokuto no Ken, we'd be seeing a lot more hyper masculine muscular men as shonen protagonists.

Instead Goku was a boy who grew into a man both physically and mentally as the story went along, which was fresh and original for the time.

Shonen protagonists going from brolic manly men to skinny whimps was less Dragon Ball and more a bastardization of Yu Yu Hakusho's appeal to female readers.

Reach for the stars, my boy!

Goku's attitude is boyish well into adulthood. He becomes wiser and more perspective as the series goes along but his core personality never changes.

Saying Goku isn't the basic template for the shonen protagonist (crazy hair, boyish, heart of gold) is like saying the sky ain't blue.

[jjgp1112]

Whatever the case, if Toriyama was actively trying to make the next Hokuto no Ken, we'd be seeing a lot more hyper masculine muscular men as shonen protagonists.

Instead Goku was a boy who grew into a man both physically and mentally as the story went along, which was fresh and original for the time.

Shonen protagonists going from brolic manly men to skinny whimps was less Dragon Ball and more a bastardization of Yu Yu Hakusho's appeal to female readers.

Reach for the stars, my boy!

Goku's attitude is boyish well into adulthood. He becomes wiser and more perspective as the series goes along but his core personality never changes.

Saying Goku isn't the basic template for the shonen protagonist (crazy hair, boyish, heart of gold) is like saying the sky ain't blue.

The Attitude yes, but the string bean look and general crybabiness of modern shonen protagonists is a concerted effort to drive female readership...and should be pretty obvious too. Don't quote me on it, but I'm pretty sure Jump folks are on record of saying that and specifically pointing to YYH

[JulieYBM]

The Attitude yes, but the string bean look and general crybabiness of modern shonen protagonists is a concerted effort to drive female readership...and should be pretty obvious too. Don't quote me on it, but I'm pretty sure Jump folks are on record of saying that and specifically pointing to YYH

Sorry, I'm a bit confused. Is describing characters that female fans like as 'crybabies' a term used by JUMP editorial? Where was this exact sentiment expressed by a JUMP editor (or I suppose it would be the translated text), if you don't mind me asking? Or did I misunderstand and you yourself are using the term 'crybabiness' to describe the kinds of characters female fans like? I apologize if my eyes glossed over some context I'm missing from the thread, I did a second cursory glance and I don't seem to be following where this is coming from.

[jjgp1112]

The Attitude yes, but the string bean look and general crybabiness of modern shonen protagonists is a concerted effort to drive female readership...and should be pretty obvious too. Don't quote me on it, but I'm pretty sure Jump folks are on record of saying that and specifically pointing to YYH

Sorry, I'm a bit confused. Is describing characters that female fans like as 'crybabies' a term used by JUMP editorial? Where was this exact sentiment expressed by a JUMP editor (or I suppose it would be the translated text), if you don't mind me asking? Or did I misunderstand and you yourself are using the term 'crybabiness' to describe the kinds of characters female fans like? I apologize if my eyes glossed over some context I'm missing from the thread, I did a second cursory glance and I don't seem to be following where this is coming from.

That's my own derision because in practice, the authors' ideas of what is vulnerable and "appealing to women" just end up being guys with the emotional stability of an 8 year old that I can't see being likeable to any demographic

[JulieYBM]

That's my own derision because in practice, the authors' ideas of what is vulnerable and "appealing to women" just end up being guys with the emotional stability of an 8 year old that I can't see being likeable to any demographic

But the appeals are working, aren't they? Or are you saying that the way the men are written is being done despite not helping to increase popularity? I'm a little confused by your argument considering how so many of these characters appear to be popular and fans take ownership of them through derivative fan works.

Edit: every time I read my post back it sounds so antagonistic and I swear I don't mean it that way.

[DBZAOTA482]

Shonen protagonists going from brolic manly men to skinny whimps was less Dragon Ball and more a bastardization of Yu Yu Hakusho's appeal to female readers.

Reach for the stars, my boy!

Goku's attitude is boyish well into adulthood. He becomes wiser and more perspective as the series goes along but his core personality never changes.

Saying Goku isn't the basic template for the shonen protagonist (crazy hair, boyish, heart of gold) is like saying the sky ain't blue.

The Attitude yes, but the string bean look and general crybabiness of modern shonen protagonists is a concerted effort to drive female readership...and should be pretty obvious too. Don't quote me on it, but I'm pretty sure Jump folks are on record of saying that and specifically pointing to YYH

Team Urameshi weren't crybabies at all. They may not have been buff but they weren't scrawny either. They were lean and in shape.

Yusuke is a delinquent who was mad at the world for his shitty home life, but is a good person at heart. His love for a good fight is also parallel to Goku's (dunno if DB influenced YYH in any way but I know it did HxH).

Kuwabara is very macho (obviously parodying the likiness of Kinnikuman and Hokuto no Ken as he's the weakest) and is a wannabe tough guy who's really a lover boy.

Kurama is mild-mannered but very cunning and calculating.

Hiei is stand-offish and arrogant.

You can argue it made bishonen characters more commonplace but you can't say the crybaby thing is on it.

[jjgp1112]

Reach for the stars, my boy!

Goku's attitude is boyish well into adulthood. He becomes wiser and more perspective as the series goes along but his core personality never changes.

Saying Goku isn't the basic template for the shonen protagonist (crazy hair, boyish, heart of gold) is like saying the sky ain't blue.

The Attitude yes, but the string bean look and general crybabiness of modern shonen protagonists is a concerted effort to drive female readership...and should be pretty obvious too. Don't quote me on it, but I'm pretty sure Jump folks are on record of saying that and specifically pointing to YYH

Team Urameshi weren't crybabies at all. They may not have been buff but they weren't scrawny either. They were lean and in shape.

Yusuke is a delinquent who was mad at the world for his shitty home life, but is a good person at heart. His love for a good fight is also parallel to Goku's (dunno if DB influenced YYH in any way but I know it did HxH).

Kuwabara is very macho (obviously parodying the likiness of Kinnikuman and Hokuto no Ken as he's the weakest) and is a wannabe tough guy who's really a lover boy.

Kurama is mild-mannered but very cunning and calculating.

Hiei is stand-offish and arrogant.

I should be more clear - they misinterpreted what worked about YYH, hence why I said bastardization. They saw that Yusuke and especially Kuramas more unconventional looks and the general pretty boy aesthetic and took it farther while missing the part where Yuskuke is a crass street thug.

[Soppa Saia People]

straight women and gay men also go crazy over hiei, probably even more so then kurama.

[jjgp1112]

That's my own derision because in practice, the authors' ideas of what is vulnerable and "appealing to women" just end up being guys with the emotional stability of an 8 year old that I can't see being likeable to any demographic

But the appeals are working, aren't they? Or are you saying that the way the men are written is being done despite not helping to increase popularity? I'm a little confused by your argument considering how so many of these characters appear to be popular and fans take ownership of them through derivative fan works.

Edit: every time I read my post back it sounds so antagonistic and I swear I don't mean it that way.

They work, but I personally find the stories a lot worse and I think the more infantile characters boxes these stories into a younger demographic in a way that I don't think can be said about 80s/early 90s works.

[JulieYBM]

The Attitude yes, but the string bean look and general crybabiness of modern shonen protagonists is a concerted effort to drive female readership...and should be pretty obvious too. Don't quote me on it, but I'm pretty sure Jump folks are on record of saying that and specifically pointing to YYH

Team Urameshi weren't crybabies at all. They may not have been buff but they weren't scrawny either. They were lean and in shape.

Yusuke is a delinquent who was mad at the world for his shitty home life, but is a good person at heart. His love for a good fight is also parallel to Goku's (dunno if DB influenced YYH in any way but I know it did HxH).

Kuwabara is very macho (obviously parodying the likiness of Kinnikuman and Hokuto no Ken as he's the weakest) and is a wannabe tough guy who's really a lover boy.

Kurama is mild-mannered but very cunning and calculating.

Hiei is stand-offish and arrogant.

I should be more clear - they misinterpreted what worked about YYH, hence why I said bastardization. They saw that Yusuke and especially Kuramas more unconventional looks and the general pretty boy aesthetic and took it farther while missing the part where Yuskuke is a crass street thug.

I love Yuu Yuu Hakusho but I fail to understand how other series are to properly 'copy' it as well as what other series we're even supposed to be criticizing. Like, yeah I can point to a series like YYH and talk about all the things I love and want to see more of I'm other series but I don't how that is ultimately supposed to be a central argument when we're not even defining the thing we're saying is bad.

Yeah, Yuu Yuu Hakusho is great! There's also other modern shounen series I like and can talk about liking which have bishounen characters!

[FinalPilaf]

The Pokémon anime is definitely the anime that have seen the largest exposure to the worlds population over the years. Pokémon as a franchise is a worldwide super phenomenon, in fact it can be described as THE worldwide super phenomenon based on revenue, and as such I can guarantee you that if you were to go to places like the poorest parts of Africa or the parts of the Middle East that is the most culturaly shut off from the rest of the world, if ANY anime is being shown on TV at all it's Pokémon.

But Dragon Ball Z is definitely right behind it in terms of this kind of exposure.

So yeah,

1. Pokémon

2. Dragon Ball Z (and to a lesser extent the other DB anime shows).

3. Who the hell knows... No other anime series have the same global reach. Naruto was huge in the west 15 years ago, but was it similarly huge in the rest of the world? Probably in parts, but I suspect not in all of it. One Piece is basically obscure outside of nerds like you and me to most of the worlds population. Doraemon is huge in India (and I think parts of South America?) but obscure in many other places such as here in Europe. Here in Europe meanwhile The Moomins are iconic, including it's 1990's anime adaption, and it is equally iconic in several other parts of the world (Russia, Israel) but obscure in others (North America). As far as sheer recognizability goes, I honestly suspect that the anime that comes after Pokémon and DBZ is Sailor Moon. Sailor Moon wasn't a huge thing in all of the world (notably it only did "meh" in North America in terms of ratings) but the character herself seem to have become an icon of anime as whole, and as such is highly recognizable. Like, you know that whenever a TV show wants to make a parody of anime but where you can tell that the people who wrote the show doesn't actually watch or know anything about anime, Pokémon, DBZ and Sailor Moon are the go-to refrence points. The Simpsons have mentioned or referenced Sailor Moon probably about four times if I remember correctly, while only referencing DBZ once. Futurama referenced Sailor Moon twice and DBZ never (again, if I remmeber correctly). But then again, name-dropping a series and making parodys of its main character is not exactly the same as the actual series being popular (after all, everybody in the world knows Casper the Friendly Ghost is but who the hell actually watches Casper cartoons anymore?).

So in conclusion... I don't think any other anime can truly stand with Pokémon and DBZ. They are in a league of their own. Oh but FUN FACT; here in Sweden Sailor Moon is in fact more famous than Dragon Ball. This is due to the simple fact that neither DBZ o nor any other DB series has EVER been shown on television. I feel like we're like the only country in the world that missed out on it, and it kinda pisses me of. Instead, by far the most famous anime shows in my country are Pokémon, The Moomins (those two are in a league of their on here) followed by Sailor Moon and Digimon. I think those are the only four anime shows shown on swedish television that were ever truly big back in their respective days (no, we never got Naruto either). Maybe also Yu-Gi-Oh and, among at least a very specific generation, Beyblade. Yeah.

[sangofe]

Yes, it is the most mainstream. When someone thinks of "anime", they think of "Dragon Ball", the anime where people punch each other, scream a lot, and have yellow hair. No other anime is as iconic and recognizable as Dragon Ball.

By the way, One Piece is not more popular and iconic than Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball Super, a sequel/midquel of the original that, we can all agree, is less iconic than DBZ (since it's been around for only 7 years), overtook One Piece in terms of ratings:

https://www.crunchyroll.com/en-gb/anime ... se-ratings

Here in Norway it's Pokémon that people think of. And they think all anime is like that. Or at least it used up be.

Well, let's look at it this way:

When you become 80 and you try to school your grandkids on some Dragon Ball and Pokemon lore.

You talk about Goku vs. Frieza and the first Pokemon movie.

Which would do you think will impress them more?

Not....really...the point.


Nobody is trying to tell you Pokemon is as good or better than Dragon Ball. Just that it is by definition not a fad, when it has stayed financially successful and engrained in the pop culture subconscious.

Pokemon's popularity hasn't just made anime in general popular globally it's also made the anime industry stronger by giving animators room to grow.

It also made a lot of people shy away from anime because they were thinking all anime was like Pokémon.

[Skar]

Except... it wasn't? Protagonists aging across decades in a story is a narrative device that's literally as old as storytelling itself. Calling this "original" in the 1980s, much less citing freaking Dragon Ball as being one of the first (or even most popular) to do it is just... I don't have a nicer word for this other than ignorant.

Everything from Jane Eyre to David Copperfield have used the "follow the main character as they age from kid to adult across the story". Its not even new to freaking Wuxia, which have some of the oldest stories in the genre following characters across literal generations.

Guys... I know I'm a broken record with this stuff, but please, I'm begging you... read and watch things other than Shonen manga and anime (or children's media in general). If even just from time to time.

I could remembering wrong but wasn't there an interview with Toriyama about his editor being against Goku growing up? It's not a rare concept in fiction but I guess uncommon for shonen at the time since the protagonist usually keeps the same appearance throughout their series and doesn't age. It's like when Toriyama was told he'd fail if he went to space in a shonen manga. Or course going to space has been common in Sci-fi, comic books, etc for decades but I guess not that common in shonen up to that point.

[DBZAOTA482]

It also made a lot of people shy away from anime because they were thinking all anime was like Pokémon.

Like I said, the Pokemon anime gets basically no respect nowadays (and rightfully so because it's garbage). Dragon Ball has its critics for sure (especially the debatably canon stuff) but since it influenced many of people's current favorites, it holds up well in recent memory.

It was probably more popular during the whole 'Pokemon craze' that infested 1999-2001 (?) but Dragon Ball has longevity on its side.

As for popularizing anime, DBZ definitely did more in that regard. The Pokemon anime was very in-line with how western cartoons were at the time while there was nothing like DBZ when it first got big in the west.

DBZ was even the first anime to make on the Wall Street Journal and it was talking about how it was from western animation (since westerners weren't that familiar with anime at the time):

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB944175764782972840

The bulk of Pokemon's audience are also small children so I doubt they are aware of what anime is. To them, it's just more cartoons.

[JulieYBM]

Yes, it is the most mainstream. When someone thinks of "anime", they think of "Dragon Ball", the anime where people punch each other, scream a lot, and have yellow hair. No other anime is as iconic and recognizable as Dragon Ball.

By the way, One Piece is not more popular and iconic than Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball Super, a sequel/midquel of the original that, we can all agree, is less iconic than DBZ (since it's been around for only 7 years), overtook One Piece in terms of ratings:

https://www.crunchyroll.com/en-gb/anime ... se-ratings

Here in Norway it's Pokémon that people think of. And they think all anime is like that. Or at least it used up be.

Not....really...the point.


Nobody is trying to tell you Pokemon is as good or better than Dragon Ball. Just that it is by definition not a fad, when it has stayed financially successful and engrained in the pop culture subconscious.

Pokemon's popularity hasn't just made anime in general popular globally it's also made the anime industry stronger by giving animators room to grow.

It also made a lot of people shy away from anime because they were thinking all anime was like Pokémon.

That sounds like a them problem, not a Pokemon problem.

[MasenkoHA]

Ll

As for popularizing anime, DBZ definitely did more in that regard.

I know you've been told this before. Anime was popular in the States long before DBZ crossed over.

DBZ was even the first anime to make on the Wall Street Journal and it was talking about how it was from western animation (since westerners weren't that familiar with anime at the time):

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB944175764782972840

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB937953097105580923

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB879452218989597500

Oh look no it wasn't