Were the fixtation on Earth after Frieza and the dropping of the Humans behind in the dust the franchise's BIG MISTAKES?

[Geraldo]

After the Frieza Saga ended, we were left with a back then "just" a tyrannical alien - directly and indirectly related to much of their biography - whom Goku and his friends and son had took down.

Frieza could have been one of many many villains with factions who operate in the endless universe that the story took place in. And I'm talking back in 1991/1992 terms, there weren't any parallel realities nor a multiverse to the franchise back yet. Nowadays, Frieza's empire is claimed to have spread across "70% of the universe" (according to Dragon Ball Super's retelling of Resurrection 'F').

So, imagine that instead of having us stuck on Earth for an endless loop (Androids -> Cell -> Majin Buu), we could have the larger crew of the Z-Fighters exploring the universe and trying to stop meances for whatever reasons; under the guidance of North/King Kai at first and later by the other quadrants' Kais. Goku could take them there with Instant Transmission rather than just relying on spaceships and wasting precious time.

I would have preferred that, over that bullshit formula where all greatest evil in the known universe must be either Earth made/grown, or Earth-based.

What made the Namek-Frieza Sagas so iconic was the exploration of space, and you'd expect the author and the staff who help creating and shaping the franchise to know it.

Edit: a typo and a request: READ BEFORE you reply.

[ABED]

That's a superhero story which DB is not. And once Freeza is gone, that should've been it for him and his empire.

I do think the human characters taking less active or interesting roles in the story was a mistake, though.

[Geraldo]

I never said "Frieza should stick around"; What I said is: There must be other dangerous aliens out there, who should have factions of their own, we could get a shot at exploring and fighting them.

I believe that Lord Slug, for example, would be better told if he was invading a different planet, where a fountain of youth is present, and then using his regained strength to create his own set of Dragon Balls and wish to be able to increase his and his minions' power to their absolute limits with black magic. Then, he can be placed above Mecha-Frieza's power level and to pose a threat to even Super Saiyan Goku.

[MasenkoHA]

It sounds like you want Dragon Ball to turn into a Galactic Guardians type series where the Z warriors go off planet hopping fighting new evil space tyrant

See Abed's point about Dragon Ball not being a super hero show. That includes not being galaxy voyaging super heroes

[Pride9000!!!]

This to me sounds like an excellent pitch for like a GT tipe series. I was thinking something like. The villain (from frieza's Empire) fights the main cast (or goku and uub) and then he tells them that there are fighters more powerful than he is. And the cast decide to bring the fight to them in space and various planets. Maybe something like that.

[TheBlackPaladin]

That's a superhero story which DB is not. And once Freeza is gone, that should've been it for him and his empire.

Honestly, that strikes me as great material for a spinoff. One of the things I wondered later as a kid was just what happened to Freeza's empire in light of his death. I have a hard time believing there wasn't any sort of chaos as a result. Especially if that empire truly covered 70% of the universe.

[ABED]

That's a superhero story which DB is not. And once Freeza is gone, that should've been it for him and his empire.

Honestly, that strikes me as great material for a spinoff. One of the things I wondered later as a kid was just what happened to Freeza's empire in light of his death. I have a hard time believing there wasn't any sort of chaos as a result. Especially if that empire truly covered 70% of the universe.

Sure, I've often thought about that over the years. I imagine there's a lot of internal strife and power grabs.

[Geraldo]

Are u kidding me? I literally said a few times that the universe must have many evil alien factions and that the Frieza Force isn't the only one out in the universe. It's not a Star Wars with only one evil faction in the cosmos. That's was explained by me in the original post and in my later reply.

I also don't want such a show to only give Goku do stuff like what GT suffered from. The gaps between his base form and the Human Z-Fighters should not be that big as DBZ and "Super" did, to keep them relevant.

[WittyUsername]

That's a superhero story which DB is not. And once Freeza is gone, that should've been it for him and his empire.

Honestly, that strikes me as great material for a spinoff. One of the things I wondered later as a kid was just what happened to Freeza's empire in light of his death. I have a hard time believing there wasn't any sort of chaos as a result. Especially if that empire truly covered 70% of the universe.

Well, according to Resurrection ‘F’, Freeza’s empire was still kicking after his death, but they were having a far more difficult time enforcing their rule without his power to back them up, which is why they decided to wish him back to life.

I suppose the manga currently has a chance to actually explore the effects that Freeza’s empire has on the universe, and the general politics surrounding the whole thing, but I’m not convinced they’d explore that in any remotely meaningful or interesting way.

I still think it’s funny how the Universe Survival arc establishes that Universe 7 is the second worst managed universe, and only has 28 planets with intelligent life remaining, and it ends with Freeza being brought back to life and rebuilding his empire.

[The Accountant]

I would have preferred a focus on expanding the universe out. But I don't hate what we got in the Android & Buu arcs.

[Majin Buu]

So, imagine that instead of having us stuck on Earth for an endless loop (Androids -> Cell -> Majin Buu), we could have the larger crew of the Z-Fighters exploring the universe and trying to stop meances for whatever reasons; under the guidance of North/King Kai at first and later by the other quadrants' Kais. Goku could take them there with Instant Transmission rather than just relying on spaceships and wasting precious time.

I would have preferred that, over that bullshit formula where all greatest evil in the known universe must be either Earth made/grown, or Earth-based.

What made the Namek-Frieza Sagas so iconic was the exploration of space.

This sounds to me like it would just be swapping one "endless loop" for a different one.

Could Toriyama have come up with a credible reason for having Goku and co go into space again? Would Toriyama be able to do anything interesting with these other worlds the characters would be theoretically exploring? Would he have been able to give us antagonists that aren't lesser rehashes of Freeza under this set up? Given what we know Toriyama is like as a writer and where the series was at post Freeza, I'm not sure he could have pulled that off because I don't think swapping Earth for more space stuff would have fixed the "Where do we go from here?" issue Toriyama was faced with after Freeza.

Following up the Freeza arc with more space stuff and more Freeza-esque enemies on repeat would have likely resulted in diminishing returns (or more diminishing returns depending on your viewpoint) since Toriyama would have likely just given us more of the same, and it would have been perceived as such. Repetition is something Dragon Ball is frequently criticized for, and for all the structural repetition that's in the Cell arc, I think Toriyama made the right call shifting the focus back to Earth. It's the characters' home and more space stuff would have felt exhausting after the long stretch of time we spent off-planet in the Freeza arc.

[MasenkoHA]

Are u kidding me? I literally said a few times that the universe must have many evil alien factions and that the Frieza Force isn't the only one out in the universe. It's not a Star Wars with only one evil faction in the cosmos. That's was explained by me in the original post and in my later reply.

I don't think anyone is challenging you on the idea there's other evil factions. But Dragon Ball isn't about keeping peace across the universe. They have no reason to care about other evil factions if they're not bothering them. They only ran into Freeza because they needed Namekiam dragon balls to bring their friends back.

Also, I don't know why you think the series is fixated or stuck on earth. Its just not a space exploration series beyond one single story arc (The Black Star arc in GT not withstanding) Do you complain about literally every single fictional series ever that never leaves earth?

[Geraldo]

Are u kidding me? I literally said a few times that the universe must have many evil alien factions and that the Frieza Force isn't the only one out in the universe. It's not a Star Wars with only one evil faction in the cosmos. That's was explained by me in the original post and in my later reply.

I don't think anyone is challenging you on the idea there's other evil factions. But Dragon Ball isn't about keeping peace across the universe. They have no reason to care about other evil factions if they're not bothering them. They only ran into Freeza because they needed Namekiam dragon balls to bring their friends back.

Each Kai monitor their quadrant of the galaxy to see what's going on and in theory to use their capable warriors to prevent havoc as the Kais themselves are very weak. If there's a needless genocide going on somewhere which can evolve into an intergalactic mayhem, I don't see why any of the Kais won't summon their best fighters there to put an end to this crisis. North Kai has the Z-Fighters to do that for him.

Also, I don't know why you think the series is fixated or stuck on earth. Its just not a space exploration series beyond one single story arc (The Black Star arc in GT not withstanding)

Let's see, if all the troubles in the universe are either coming to Earth or happening on Earth (Dr. Gero creating androids stronger than those the author placed as the strongest in the universe, despite he acts as if he has no knowledge of them; Majin Buu being sealed on Earth, Zamasu and Goku Black getting stuck to pull their "Zero Mortals Plan" on Earth for a year or so in the alternate future timeline, Broly being brought to Earth, Android 17 gets strong as heck out of nowhere and 9/10 of the Universe 7 Team are Earthlings by residence or by origin; moro and his sevents coming for their final showdown on Earth), while there's a whole universe out there, then it fits the definition of "fixtated on Earth".

Do you complain about literally every single fictional series ever that never leaves earth?

No, but thank you for trying to think for me about what do I think about any fictional series. Where have u seen me say anything like that?! The Dragon Ball fandom sometimes justifies it's stereotypes online.

Edit:

This sounds to me like it would just be swapping one "endless loop" for a different one.

Could Toriyama have come up with a credible reason for having Goku and co go into space again? Would Toriyama be able to do anything interesting with these other worlds the characters would be theoretically exploring? Would he have been able to give us antagonists that aren't lesser rehashes of Freeza under this set up? Given what we know Toriyama is like as a writer and where the series was at post Freeza, I'm not sure he could have pulled that off because I don't think swapping Earth for more space stuff would have fixed the "Where do we go from here?" issue Toriyama was faced with after Freeza.

Following up the Freeza arc with more space stuff and more Freeza-esque enemies on repeat would have likely resulted in diminishing returns (or more diminishing returns depending on your viewpoint) since Toriyama would have likely just given us more of the same, and it would have been perceived as such. Repetition is something Dragon Ball is frequently criticized for, and for all the structural repetition that's in the Cell arc, I think Toriyama made the right call shifting the focus back to Earth. It's the characters' home and more space stuff would have felt exhausting after the long stretch of time we spent off-planet in the Freeza arc.

Toriyama had an editor (IIRC more than one throughout the years) to help him with getting the best story he could draw. I don't see why the editor/s couldn't say to him: "Well, that's too much like Frieza, let's scrap that and write a different villain". After all his Android Saga and Buu Saga were changed constantly till we got the final products.

And I would much rather have an extended exploration of the universe than getting another "ooooh, a baddie appeared! Are you an android?? Let's fight on a wasteland or on some other remote scene of Earth cause everyone knows any villain must come to Earth or be a local scrap of metal."

[ABED]

I read what you wrote, I fail to see how that's the issue here. I understood your point about other threats than Freeza, and felt that whole "DB isn't a superhero story" where the heroes go around trying to stop threats summed up my issue pretty well. It doesn't matter if it's Freeza's men or not, it's just not that kind of story. Sorry it wasn't clear.

And not to be pedantic, but the Freeza arc didn't really explore anything. It was certainly a nice change of pace from the usual setting, but that's really all that was. I don't wish to armchair QB where to take the story after Freeza. The logic could've used some work but after facing a galactic despot, a creature made up of the strongest fighters in the universe was a really cool idea.

The one point I do wholeheartedly agree with is leaving the humans behind was a mistake, but it's because I like those characters and their dynamics. It's not a power level issue. Bulma, Muten Roshi, Kuririn, and Tenshinhan bring a lot to the story.

[MasenkoHA]

. North Kai has the Z-Fighters to do that for him.

When? That one time in the first Broly movie? After an entire quadrant of the universe was destroyed and only Goku

Like...that straight up is not a thing. He doesn't do that.

[Geraldo]

I read what you wrote, I fail to see how that's the issue here. I understood your point about other threats than Freeza, and felt that whole "DB isn't a superhero story" where the heroes go around trying to stop threats summed up my issue pretty well. It doesn't matter if it's Freeza's men or not, it's just not that kind of story. Sorry it wasn't clear.

And not to be pedantic, but the Freeza arc didn't really explore anything. It was certainly a nice change of pace from the usual setting, but that's really all that was. I don't wish to armchair QB where to take the story after Freeza. The logic could've used some work but after facing a galactic despot, a creature made up of the strongest fighters in the universe was a really cool idea.

The one point I do wholeheartedly agree with is leaving the humans behind was a mistake, but it's because I like those characters and their dynamics. It's not a power level issue. Bulma, Muten Roshi, Kuririn, and Tenshinhan bring a lot to the story.

Let's see, we got an insight into what the organisation that the remaining Saiyans worked in looked like, we got to see it's ranks from the weakest soldiers to the top combatants, and to the head of the pyramid (Frieza); and Vegeta's dynamics with them (**edited later: he went from being the spot on villain on the Saiyan Saga/conflict to an interim ranked baddie within his own "domain", and one with a bullied past haunting him through and through whenever he steps into the wall of a stronger Frieza subordinate, he was basically an egotistical bullied subject who was fighting for the Dragon Balls for his freedom out of Frieza's oppression and stealing Frieza's wish was the only way he could get freed, at least what he thought back then, prior to getting remorse from Goku on his "deathbed"**).

We got to see where Piccolo was originally from and what the lifestyle of his people is. We got to see the Grand Elder and to learn of his abilities.

These are all what made Dragon Ball Z anime and equivalent manga materials stretch as long as it did.

What did we got in the Android Saga that you praise so loudly? A mad scientist who created the ever changing big bad till Cell's debut, who are all stronger than Frieza and King Cold, yet Gero acts like he absolutely has no idea of any of them (who were killed by a Super Saiyan, a form he didn't knew yet was able to far outclass it in almost every one of his best androids) - despite cloning their DNA. All that big hurrah was "I'm stronger than you now, any enemy! I am a Super Saiyan [enter grade]! Screw you, humans! From now on you ain't worth jack! Move to the commentators' seats." Also, Krillin has the hots for a 12 grader who was converted into a cyborg.

What did the Buu Saga gave us? Vegeta reverting to his evil self, cause he was turning 40 and because Goku was out of his life for 7 years. Here are the Supreme Kais, who reside in the highest realm there is, but they don't have anything to add to the story but their fusion enabling earings and their old fellow who can draw anyone's ki to their fullest but let's never bring that again. Goku has learnt the Fusion Dance while in the afterlife, and can also cover his eyebrows with his skin to make his hair get almost as long as his height. And Goku has a younger son now who looks just like him but amounts to nothing but a fusion dance partner for modern Trunks AND BOTH can now turn into Super Saiyans for no real reason but to sell toys. Here's the Demon Realm King who looks badass AAAAAND he's gone.

. North Kai has the Z-Fighters to do that for him.

When? That one time in the first Broly movie? After an entire quadrant of the universe was destroyed and only Goku

Like...that straight up is not a thing. He doesn't do that.

Also in the Other World Saga, where he tells Goku to help Pikkon who's sent by West Kai to stop Cell and the Frieza Force elites. And also after the death of DBZ's Broly in Movie 10.

[MasenkoHA]

Also in the Other World Saga, where he tells Goku to help Pikkon who's sent by West Kai to stop Cell and the Frieza Force elites. And also after the death of DBZ's Broly in Movie 10.

So....the afterlife.

[ABED]

Fair enough. I like a number of the things you mentioned about Namek as well. I was being a little too literal when I read "explore". But regardless, I don't think hierarchies and world building are what draws people in. What makes that arc interesting are the character dynamics and the cat and mouse games and reversals.

I don't care much about the power level stuff. I'd also hardly call what I wrote about the Cell arc "loud praise". I have issues with it, but it's not the battle power stuff by and large. Okay, the cyborgs having power that dwarfs Super Saiyan and Freeza even though Dr. Gero made it clear he never saw either is contrived, but not the worst thing in the world. Last point about the Cell arc, it's clear from the beginning that all wasn't as it seemed. It's all meant to be mysterious so the big bad wasn't changing, it was all leading to Cell, whether that was Toriyama's original endgame, that's irrelevant.

I think you are fixated too much on the power level and world building stuff and missing the bigger picture.

Perhaps they could've had an equivalent of a Hell Mouth explanation for why Earth seems to be the fulcrum of the universe in DB, but I'm fine with that being one of the big buys of the series - that everything centers around where our main characters are from.

I think I've exhausted what I have to add to this conversation, unless you want an explanation or clarification of anything I've written.

[MasenkoHA]

Perhaps they could've had an equivalent of a Hell Mouth explanation for why Earth seems to be the fulcrum of the universe in DB, but I'm fine with that being one of the big buys of the series - that everything centers around where our main characters are from.

I think they did sufficient enough job showing earth isn't necessarily more important its just where the cast lives. Earth wasn't even on Freeza's rader. The dragon ball gang were just in a bad place at the wrong time. That Not Heracles type character from the Afterlife Tournament was a hero of his planet. Likewise Pikkon.

[goku the krump dancer]

How do you keep the human fighters relevant without emphasizing power levels though. The Tournament of Power tried to tell us that everyone besides the power houses ( Goku,Vegeta,Freeza) brought some sort of alternative strategy to the mix but it all ultimately lead to nothing since most of the contestants were eliminated with brute force anyway.