Deep Thoughts: The Androids Saga

[ABED]

These 14 episodes are the beginning of what is one of the longest and most boring arcs in the series. It doesn't start out that way. The hook of a time traveler who comes back to warn our heroes of an impending danger is a great hook. But much of that promise is ultimately squandered about 1/3 of the way through, the payoffs in act three aren't set up in act one, and the fights with one, possibly two exceptions aren't all that good. The story tries to keep this ominous air about it the entire time and it gets tiring after a while. 70 episodes is a long time even with some levity.

I'll have more to say when we get deeper into the Cell arc, but I have to ask again, for those claiming they could tell Toriyama was making it up as he went, did you really think 19 and 20 were the big bads? I ask because I genuinely don't believe people who claim they saw telltale signs of Toriyama making it up as he went. We know he does but the change of the big bads until the ultimate reveal of the final boss, Cell, felt natural. It felt like it flowed naturally from it being a time travel story. It's pretty much inevitable that if you have a character that goes back into the past, something is going to change. How did you see it going if No. 19 and 20 were the big bads?

I know I've gone on about how most stories operate on "just because" logic, but my point isn't that you have to always accept it, but more that it's often an arbitrary line. This arc is perfect example. Why are the cyborgs that much stronger than the strongest in the universe? They just are, and it bugs me. Why are cyborgs made by a lone scientist stronger than the emperor of the universe and the legendary Super Saiyan? I think Toriyama was trying to have the heroes one up and surprise the villains by showing them something they hadn't factored into their calculations when Goku shows them he can turn Super Saiyan. However, since the last time Dr. Gero studied Goku was four years previous and he was considerably weaker, why are his creations so much damn stronger? It's an easier buy if Dr. Gero had been studying Goku the whole time.

Trunks not telling Goku what the cyborgs looked like is a good example of fridge logic. Why not tell him what they look like. He just assumes they know, which on the surface makes some sense, but as a guy who has a tendency to over explain things in detail, the idea that he wouldn't mention they are teenage boy and girl is baffling.

Did Toriyama know Dr. Gero was No. 20? Does Dr. Gero so desperately want to be a cyborg that he considers his former self dead? I found his denial of Piccolo's comment that he sounds like he is Dr. Gero really interesting.

The fight between Vegeta and No. 18 is enjoyable but I don't like seeing 17 take out everyone else so easily. A dumb teenager having that kind of power bugs me. Vegeta put up a fight at least for a while. And man the kick that breaks his arm is painful to watch. It's the one battle of note in these 14 episodes. Goku vs. no. 19 is fine but it's not meant to be a great fight. It's meant to move the plot forward.

Planning vs. Pantsing:
My preference for which side of the debate I come down on has changed over the years. For the longest time I would've said that planning things out even in meticulous detail and knowing EXACTLY where your story is going is the best way to tell a story, but now I don't think that's true. There have been so many times I've seen stories where the writer had a better idea than originally intended. Some planning is good, like having SOME idea of what you're driving towards, but don't be so inflexible that you go with something that isn't working just because it was the plan. That's what I think happened with Game of Thrones. They did have a plan. They had a checklist and checked off the plot points they covered and considered it a success when they reached the finish line. What they forgot was it doesn't matter what the plan is if the audience doesn't respond emotionally.
I wonder what Toriyama's ideas for No. 16 were when he created him. Even if he didn't know exactly how he would figure into the final battle, did he at least know he'd play a pivotal part?

Random Thoughts:
Dr. Gero pops the civilian's head off in the manga. It's ridiculously graphic to the point of feeling gratuitous. Nothing in the rest of the story comes this close. It sticks out and not in a good way. Then he goes and impales Yamcha. How the hell did Yamcha survive that?
I like that the fighters have gotten so used to sensing ki that they feel awkward looking for things the old fashioned way.
Does it bother anyone else that when Gohan is flying with Yajirobe and Bulma towards his house that his home is IN SIGHT and she tells him to change course and go to her house? It's not even urgent.

The Dub:
For whatever crap we can rightfully throw at FUNi, even early on they invested their profits back into the company. The recordings sound better, the home videos look slightly more professional, and they broadened their talent pool.
One of their best bits of casting is Kent Williams. His performance as Dr. Gero is where I first took note. He doesn't sound like an old man, but it's a plus. The voice still works and he doesn't try to force an "old man voice" that would've weakened his performance.
Phillip Wilburn as No. 19 is not a bright spot. Why? Just why is his voice that high pitched and silly? The filter wasn't a good idea but it somewhat covered it up. I wonder why the Dragon Box version lost the filter.
No. 17 – The original Japanese actor gives a nonchalant vibe to 17, Chuck Huber gives him this odd detachment. I think both work and it's one of Huber's better performances.
Meredith McCoy as No. 18 is one of my favorites. She's okay here, and gets better as it goes along, but she more or less uses her normal voice which is deep and sexy. It reminds me of this girl I went to high school with. We had a lot of classes together and were seated next to each other when seats were assigned alphabetically. She also had blond hair, was incredibly beautiful, and had a deep but feminine voice.
Jeremy Inman is awful here as No. 16. Is he trying to sound like Arnold without the accent? It isn't working, but thankfully is WAY better by Kai.
In episode 132, Sabat has one of my favorite line deliveries, "You told us a pack of lies. Curse you, boy!" It's so goofy and over the top, especially the second sentence.

Filler:
Explaining the Red Ribbon Army to Maron was a great use of filler. The rest of the cutaways to her are not so good.

Random Thoughts:
Vegeta's armor in this arc is my favorite look of his.
Back in the late 90s-early 00s, I rented a few VHS's from a store in my local mall. I don't know if the episodes contained were clearly labeled, but it appears I picked some of the most random episodes because for whatever reason, one of the volumes I got was the episodes where Dr. Gero is fleeing from the Z Team and awakens 17 and 18. The thing I most remember is thinking the part where he knees Kuririn so hard that Kuririn spits up blood was awesome. God I was such an easy to please edgelord.

Home Video:
Starting with the Android Saga, FUNi added a picture of the villains to the back of the box art. In this case it's Cyborgs 16 through 20. On the Cell Sagas DVDs, it's Cell from his larva state through his 3 mature stages. I really like that. It's simple and looks good. I wish the DVD menus for the singles had the 3D art like the Freeza DVDs, perhaps of Dr. Gero's lab.

[WittyUsername]

The obvious telltale sign that #19 and #20 were meant to be the big bads is the fact that, in the manga, Trunks specifically claims that the artificial humans who destroyed his world went by the names #19 and #20.

[ABED]

The obvious telltale sign that #19 and #20 were meant to be the big bads is the fact that, in the manga, Trunks specifically claims that the artificial humans who destroyed his world went by the names #19 and #20.

It's a time travel story which naturally subvert expectations such as this. Those were the cyborgs that destroyed his world, but his going back in time inherently alters that course. Time travel stories where someone goes back to the past usually follow one of two paths:
1) Time can't be changed no matter how hard you fight against it. Even if the course is changed it will find ways to steer back into the direction it was heading. And then the story either has the hero change their fate at the very end or it plays out as fated.
2) Going back into the past causes the future to change often in disastrous ways.

[WittyUsername]

The obvious telltale sign that #19 and #20 were meant to be the big bads is the fact that, in the manga, Trunks specifically claims that the artificial humans who destroyed his world went by the names #19 and #20.

It's a time travel story which naturally subvert expectations such as this. Those were the cyborgs that destroyed his world, but his going back in time inherently alters that course.

That’s a bit of a reach. The simple fact is that when Trunks warned Goku about the artificial humans, he claimed they were called #19 and #20, but then he later says that he doesn’t recognize #19 and #20, and that the artificial humans from his timeline are actually called #17 and #18. That’s a definite plot hole that was clearly the result of Toriyama changing his plans at the behest of his former editor. Even Toei agreed, because the anime actually removed that discrepancy.

[8000 Saiyan]

Funnily enough, Meredith McCoy does look a lot like Android 18 in real life, now that you mention having a friend that looked like her, ABED.

[ABED]

That's a retcon, not so much a plothole.

And I fail to see how it's a stretch. I don't see why a typical path of a time travel story is a reach. Why go through all the trouble to create a time travel plot and then tell a more straightforward story? Why not have the cyborgs appear and then the Z Team deals with them? What purpose does Trunks serve?

If his editors hadn't said anything, how do you see it playing out? It feels like a very short arc if they encounter the big bads right off the bat and there's no subversion.

[MasenkoHA]

I will always believed that 19 and 20 being dumped for 17 and 18 and then Cell taking over was the best possible decision for the story.

It's like how Buffy season 2 was planned for the Annointed One to become the big bad after building him in the first season. Then the actor started going through puberty and wasn't going to be believable as an immortal undead child so he was tossed away for Spike and Druisilla and then Angelus ended up as the season's big bad for the emotional connection to Buffy. Sometimes things work out better than what was planned.

As far as knowing if Toriyama was making stuff up as he went along no it felt like a pretty natural trajectory for me. It helped that I didn't know that in the manga Trunks identified the Artificial Humans as 19 and 20. In the anime he doesn't specify numbers.

18 in particular was a great addition to what was otherwise a sausagefest. Up to this point we only had two female
fighters. One of whom's entire schtick was using her body and chivalrous sexism to try to win martial art tourmaments and the other was Chi Chi who retired to get married and become a tiger mom. Sure 18 didn't do much after the Cell saga but at least she got to shine a bit in the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai and the Tournament of Power. And anyone who gets to kick Vegeta's ass and knock down him a peg or two for a second is a-okay in my book.


As for the dub, I agree most of the new additions were the best part. Kent Williams was a solid Gero and Mercenary...um General Tao. Chuck Huber and Meredith McCoy did a good job voicing 17 and 18 even if the robotic performance was a bit misguided in direction. 16 and 19's dub voices were meh. 19's voice filter missing in the remastered dub had the side effect of making the actor sound like he was doing a racist China Man impression tbh.

The dub will bite itself in the ass by constantly getting things wrong about details of the Red Ribbon Army that would be proven wrong once Funimation dubbed the Red Ribbon storyline 2 years later.

Also they'll make several references to 17 and 18 being purely mechanical. Like 17 talking about 16 not being programmed with a personality like him and 18 or 18 making a comment that someone (Chi Chi) needs to get her "optical sensors" checked when going through Chi Chi's clothes. It ends up having the side effect of looking like a massive retcon when Krillin explains to Goku that 18 was a human before Gero modified her with mechanical parts, even though they were pretty accurately translating the dialog in that particular scene

[WittyUsername]

That's a retcon, not so much a plothole.

And I fail to see how it's a stretch. I don't see why a typical path of a time travel story is a reach. Why go through all the trouble to create a time travel plot and then tell a more straightforward story? Why not have the cyborgs appear and then the Z Team deals with them? What purpose does Trunks serve?

If his editors hadn't said anything, how do you see it playing out? It feels like a very short arc if they encounter the big bads right off the bat and there's no subversion.

Trunks’ initial purpose was to warn Goku and friends about the artificial humans, because simply having them appear out of nowhere would’ve been weird. Also, his existence is meant to give an idea of how powerful the artificial humans are. After all, if Trunks is a Super Saiyan who was able to easily kill Freeza, and yet is no match for the artificial humans, then that gives them an extra level of menace.

Anyway, I’m not really sure what your point is. We have no way of knowing how the story would’ve gone if #19 and #20 remained the villains, or what Trunks’ role would’ve been moving forward. The only real assumption we can make is that #19 probably wouldn’t have been killed off so early.

To be clear, I don’t really have a problem with retconning #17 and #18 as the true bad guys from Trunks’ future. It actually does serve as a nice subversion, even if it was unintentional, but the fact that it’s a retcon is certainly apparent in the original manga, but not so much in the anime, since Toei had the benefit of foresight.

[ABED]

Would their appearance be any more out of nowhere than the Saiyans or Piccolo Daimao?

Anyway, I’m not really sure what your point is.

That just because a writer plants a seed and has a character say "X will happen" doesn't mean that will in fact happen. That's especially true in time travel stories. You don't need Trunks foreboding to get "wow, those guys we know nothing about are stronger than a Super Saiyan." History being different after a character changes the past is a trope of time travel stories so I don't see why anyone thinks it's so obvious that Toriyama changed his intended big bads because he had the character from the future said they would be 2 characters and it's ultimately someone completely different. The butterfly effect is a trope for a reason.

While your assumption of what might happen and Trunks' narrative purpose are interesting, I'd hope you could at least see that it's not a stretch to think in absence of behind the scenes stories, one would assume that Toriyama wasn't intending 19 and 20 to be the villains.

[WittyUsername]

Would their appearance be any more out of nowhere than the Saiyans or Piccolo Daimao?

I’m not Akira Toriyama, but I would have to imagine he probably thought it would be boring if his new arc began with Goku returning to Earth, and then, all of a sudden, some robots appear and start trashing the place. The fact that the arc begins with Freeza returning to Earth, only to get killed by some mysterious new Super Saiyan, was likely meant to surprise and intrigue readers. That was Trunks’ initial reason for existing. Again, we have no way of knowing what role Trunks would have played if #19 and #20 had remained the villains, but in terms of why the character was initially conceived, that was the reason.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, but Trunks is also there to inform Goku that he will die of a heart virus in the future.

That just because a writer plants a seed and has a character say "X will happen" doesn't mean that will in fact happen. That's especially true in time travel stories. You don't need Trunks foreboding to get "wow, those guys we know nothing about are stronger than a Super Saiyan." History being different after a character changes the past is a trope of time travel stories so I don't see why anyone thinks it's so obvious that Toriyama changed his intended big bads because he had the character from the future said they would be 2 characters and it's ultimately someone completely different. The butterfly effect is a trope for a reason.

The thing is that the manga never addresses the discrepancy regarding Trunks referring to #19 and #20 by name. The characters don’t question why Trunks has suddenly flip-flopped on what the artificial human’s numbers are. Toriyama simply acts like it never happened. Again, the anime doesn’t have this problem, because Trunks in the anime doesn’t name the artificial humans to Goku.

[ABED]

Oh, and I forgot to mention, but Trunks is also there to inform Goku that he will die of a heart virus in the future.

That right there is an example of time travel having downstream effects. Goku got the heart virus much later. Just because Trunks said things happened one way, we're seeing that they aren't occurring as things unfolded in his timeline. Goku was supposed to die during the 3 year time period and now he didn't even come down with the virus until later than Trunks said he would. So why is it a stretch for the audience to assume Toriyama had intended a different big bad all along?

Toriyama simply acts like it never happened.

Because it's a retcon. A retcon is when old information is overwritten and the story acts as though that's always been the case. Why were 17 and 18 the ones that Trunks was talking about when he said 19 and 20? Because Toriyama changed his mind and retroactively Trunks always said 17 and 18. I'm not sure why you are placing so much importance on the retcon. Toriyama is telling the audience "pretend I never had Trunks say 19 and 20."

Do you believe that the change is an in universe change? As in, do you believe that by going into the past, Trunks inadvertently caused the numbers of the cyborgs he knew to switch?

Maybe I might ask for clarification of any further replies but beyond that, I think I've said all I can on this subject.

[WittyUsername]

Oh, and I forgot to mention, but Trunks is also there to inform Goku that he will die of a heart virus in the future.

That right there is an example of time travel having downstream effects. Goku got the heart virus much later. Just because Trunks said things happened one way, we're seeing that they aren't occurring as things unfolded in his timeline. Goku was supposed to die during the 3 year time period and now he didn't even come down with the virus until later than Trunks said he would. So why is it a stretch for the audience to assume Toriyama had intended a different big bad all along?

Toriyama simply acts like it never happened.

Because it's a retcon. A retcon is when old information is overwritten and the story acts as though that's always been the case. Why were 17 and 18 the ones that Trunks was talking about when he said 19 and 20? Because Toriyama changed his mind and retroactively Trunks always said 17 and 18. I'm not sure why you are placing so much importance on the retcon. Toriyama is telling the audience "pretend I never had Trunks say 19 and 20."

Do you believe that the change is an in universe change? As in, do you believe that by going into the past, Trunks inadvertently caused the numbers of the cyborgs he knew to switch?

Maybe I might ask for clarification of any further replies but beyond that, I think I've said all I can on this subject.

I think you’re confused here. You said you didn’t understand why some people felt it was obvious that Toriyama changed his mind on who the villains would be. I simply provided you a reason for it.

You said it yourself. A retcon took place. Trunks initially said that the artificial humans from his timeline were #19 and #20, only to later say that they’re actually #17 and #18, and no one in-universe acknowledges the discrepancy. It’s an inconsistency, just like when Freeza is initially shown to be aware of Goku and Gohan’s existence when he speaks to Zarbon, only to later be surprised that there are more Saiyans left.

I don’t understand why I have to keep repeating myself, but as I already stated, I don’t have a problem with Toriyama changing his mind on who the villains were. All I was saying was that if you read the manga, the retcon is apparent in a key instance.

[ABED]

Are you saying you think the change is obvious because he changed their names?

[WittyUsername]

Are you saying you think the change is obvious because he changed their names?

I’m saying that the change is apparent because of the inconsistency that never gets addressed. It’s not apparent in the anime, because the anime deliberately chose to leave out the part where Trunks tells Goku what their names are. I’m not even saying it’s a big deal. Just that it’s a clear indication that Toriyama changed his plans.

[ABED]

Are you saying you think the change is obvious because he changed their names?

I’m saying that the change is apparent because of the inconsistency that never gets addressed. It’s not apparent in the anime, because the anime deliberately chose to leave out the part where Trunks tells Goku what their names are. I’m not even saying it’s a big deal. Just that it’s a clear indication that Toriyama changed his plans.

i think I'm getting it. Yes, the cyborgs that Trunks was describing changed, but that's not proof that the intended big bads changed because we don't know from that name change that Toriyama had originally intended for them to be the main villains. We know who destroyed Trunks' timeline, but not who it was all ultimately leading to.

Fingers crossed that I got it right this time. If not, talk to me like I'm five.

[MasenkoHA]

I'm not Witty (or Kanz member WittyUsername) but I would think the information Trunks knows to be true shouldn't have changed in his head or in his timeline even if it does in the main timeline.

If he came back and said "Wait a minute that's not the 19 and 20 from my time! In my time they were a feminine looking man and a pretty girl!" and the twist is in the main timeline those cyborgs are now designated as 17 and 18 that would be one thing.

But no, Trunks matter of factly states that 19 and 20 are the Artificial Humans then he comes back and acts like he was always talking about 17 and 18.

Of course, it can't be stressed the vast majority of people in the West were exposed to the anime before the manga. I don't think most people outside of Japan would have caught on to the obvious retcon when first seeing the anime. It's only after reading the manga that would make you go "a ha"

[Koitsukai]

I liked that two scrawny teenagers were effortlessly stomping the strongest people in the universe, and sparing their lives for laughs, too.
But after the fight is over, the arc takes a nosedive for me. Vegeta doing that Phil Collins videoclip, the namekian stare off, Goku shouting in his sleep, the androids driving around, the gang feeling sorry for themselves, Bulma and the second time machine, all of that bored the fuck outta me. Perhaps it was the anime stretching things out because in the manga I don't get that feeling.

About seeing signs of Toriyama's U turns, I don't buy people that claim to have seen that.
Mostly because we've all been exposed to some degree of spoilers before the actual arcs landed. I was just glimpsing over some old album of figurines, and the Namek arc album has characters from the next arc on its last few pages. Goku was still travelling to Namek but there you had pictures of Trunks, the teen androids, Cell, Mecha Freeza...
Not to mention DBZ school folders, waffer cards, stickers, magazines, promotional material, things that spoiled the fuck out of the story because the guys cashing out on that couldn't give two fucks about revealing yet unseen information.
And there was always that one guy that had read the manga or some of it, and had knowledge beyond the latest episode. And the neverending race of being right and your friend being wrong, therefore trying to get more future intel (spoilers) to disprove whatever a classmate was saying at the time.
So, I entered this particular arc knowing exactly who was going to be the big bad, so I knew from the get-go Fatso and Oldie weren't going to last for long.

I guess, only a japanese manga reader from back then could actually say if they've noticed things being written/changed on the fly. Except for the Buu arc, but that's too obvious.

[WittyUsername]

Are you saying you think the change is obvious because he changed their names?

I’m saying that the change is apparent because of the inconsistency that never gets addressed. It’s not apparent in the anime, because the anime deliberately chose to leave out the part where Trunks tells Goku what their names are. I’m not even saying it’s a big deal. Just that it’s a clear indication that Toriyama changed his plans.

i think I'm getting it. Yes, the cyborgs that Trunks was describing changed, but that's not proof that the intended big bads changed because we don't know from that name change that Toriyama had originally intended for them to be the main villains. We know who destroyed Trunks' timeline, but not who it was all ultimately leading to.

Fingers crossed that I got it right this time. If not, talk to me like I'm five.

It seems you got the point I was making, but I’m gonna have to disagree on it not being proof that the intended villains changed. Trunks said the villains were #19 and #20, and the fat guy and old man that we see shortly afterwards refer to themselves as #19 and #20.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I must agree that I never thought Toriyama was making it up as he went along in this arc. If there was a villain after Cell (and of course before the Other World tournament) it would have felt tacked on, but Cell was the clear culmination of where this story of artificial humans and time travel was headed.

It's the Boo arc when Toriyama flying by the seat of his pants really showed, and I say that as someone who loves that arc.