Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Seeing how Toriyama said that no one can stop him when he's angry, Where does Beast Gohan scale against Beerus?

I don't think Gohan is stronger than Beerus yet. The day someone surpasses Beerus, and like really surpass, not just maybe surpass like Broly, it's gonna be a huge deal.

If we do place Broly and Beerus in the same level, then Toriyama suggests Gohan is still inferior since he compares a Complete Cell Max to Broly instead of Gohan.

In the film, Goku said Broly probably was stronger than Beerus, at least according to what he knew from Whis. So, although Gohan may be implied to be weaker than Broly, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that Gohan has reached or surpassed Beerus. The manga in another hand could totally differ on this matter, as Beerus is nearly untouchable there.

[Skar]

I can't say. However, Toyotaro didn't finish RoF manga and told the audience to see the movie. Just as DBS: Super Hero was written purely as a sequel to DBS: Broly movies only. Go figure.

The anime and manga adaptations of BoG both removed the 70% line and I recall anime removed Whis saying Goku and Vegeta working together could defeat Beerus in RoF. I think the only changes to the manga RoF would also be removing that line and no "Saiyan Beyond God" since Goku used SSJG before going Blue in later sagas and in Broly.

[Miracles]

I can't say. However, Toyotaro didn't finish RoF manga and told the audience to see the movie. Just as DBS: Super Hero was written purely as a sequel to DBS: Broly movies only. Go figure.

The anime and manga adaptations of BoG both removed the 70% line and I recall anime removed Whis saying Goku and Vegeta working together could defeat Beerus in RoF. I think the only changes to the manga RoF would also be removing that line and no "Saiyan Beyond God" since Goku used SSJG before going Blue in later sagas and in Broly.

The anime and manga adaptations do not need the "nearly 70%" line. Goku was no where near a Beerus using "nearly 70%" of power in the BoG movie anyway. So it does not contradict the story nor show a "retcon" to Toriyama's view, which is the canonical movies.

[Skar]

The anime and manga adaptations do not need the "nearly 70%" line. Goku was no where near a Beerus using "nearly 70%" of power in the BoG movie anyway. So it does not contradict the story nor show a "retcon" to Toriyama's view, which is the canonical movies.

I'm not sure how you're getting this conclusion since again Whis was the one who said it. In the old scale for BoG, SSJG was a 6 and Beerus was a 10. 70% of Beerus' power would be a 7 which works with what Whis said since it's still higher than SSJG. The retcon is only that Beerus used an unknown smaller percentage of his power in DBS. That would explain why the lines were removed and makes more sense than arguing Toriyama intentionally wrote Whis to be wrong in BoG.

[Miracles]

The anime and manga adaptations do not need the "nearly 70%" line. Goku was no where near a Beerus using "nearly 70%" of power in the BoG movie anyway. So it does not contradict the story nor show a "retcon" to Toriyama's view, which is the canonical movies.

I'm not sure how you're getting this conclusion since again Whis was the one who said it. In the old scale for BoG, SSJG was a 6 and Beerus was a 10. 70% of Beerus' power would be a 7 which works with what Whis said since it's still higher than SSJG. The retcon is only that Beerus used an unknown smaller percentage of his power in DBS. That would explain why the lines were removed and makes more sense than arguing Toriyama intentionally wrote Whis to be wrong in BoG.

I'm saying [and have been] Whis is right that Beerus "nearly used 70%" of his power against Goku Red. However, BoG also has Goku say while Beerus is using 70% of his power: First matter at hand now "is still how huge the difference in our power is."

[Skar]

I'm saying [and have been] Whis is right that Beerus "nearly used 70%" of his power against Goku Red. However, BoG also has Goku say while Beerus is using 70% of his power: First matter at hand now "is still how huge the difference in our power is."

I don't know how strong Goku was in that version of SSJ but I assume it was weaker if he had to go SSJG again to deflect the attack. There would still be a gap between them but the difference is we're told how much in BoG and not the manga or anime.

[Miracles]

I'm saying [and have been] Whis is right that Beerus "nearly used 70%" of his power against Goku Red. However, BoG also has Goku say while Beerus is using 70% of his power: First matter at hand now "is still how huge the difference in our power is."

I don't know how strong Goku was in that version of SSJ but I assume it was weaker if he had to go SSJG again to deflect the attack. There would still be a gap between them but the difference is we're told how much in BoG and not the manga or anime.

Yes we are told how much in BoG. In RoF is a different matter since Whis said Beerus hasn't "quite mastered Ultra Instinct yet." Meaning Beerus has mastered Ultra Instinct to some degree but is still working on it. Hence why Whis doesn't even know if two Blue's can stand against Beerus, let alone beat him. Then we go on to DBS: Broly where the narration doesn't even know if an opponent who needed a current Blue fusion in Gogeta to beat is stronger than Beerus himself. Then finally, in DBS: Super Hero Beerus is once again stated to be the strongest in the universe, despite Broly being in that universe.

Beerus power narrative:

1. Battle of gods: Stated to be the "strongest in the universe" which is the "terror of Beerus the destroyer."
Only Whis is said to be "stronger" in the universe. Beerus "have to use nearly 70% of his power."

2. Resurrection of F: Beerus hasn't "quite mastered Ultra Instinct yet."
Whis only "thinks" that it "seems" like two Blue's at once can challenge Beerus.

3. Dragonball Super: Broly: "A foe who needed a Blue fusion in Gogeta is only "probably [some doubt]" stronger than Beerus.
4. Dragonball Super: Super Hero: Beerus is said to be "the most feared in the universe!" Same title of strength from Battle of gods.

Beerus > any mortal to this day. Only Whis is stated to be stronger in universe 7. Seems consistent to me with no retcons.

[Skar]

Beerus > any mortal to this day. Only Whis is stated to be stronger in universe 7. Seems consistent to me with no retcons.

I think it could be considered consistent in DBS since it was unclear how strong Beerus was from the beginning. You're still using two statements from the movies to support your argument when you said earlier you weren't sure why they were removed. There has to be some reason why almost every other line from BoG and RoF were kept the same but they specifically removed two statements from Whis about Beerus' power. Beerus still hasn't mastered UI yet even in the latest saga of the manga so we don't know if he's been training at all since BoG.

[Mr Baggins]

However, the possible training that Beerus is pursuing Ultra Instinct [RoF] is not being considered.

I'm just talking about Battle of Gods. Whether you want to think Beerus got stronger by Resurrection 'F' is up to you, though there's no evidence to support that.

In any case, Super's ongoing serialization nips this in the bud entirely by displaying a more casual Beerus and remaining non-committal about percentages. If the word "retcon" makes you uncomfortable, you can just say it's a different continuity; either way, that part of the narrative definitely changed when Shueisha decided to make a whole sequel series. No 70% lines to be found.

This is also far from being the only difference between the modern Z movies and Super's version of them. It shouldn't even be an argument that alterations were made, and inevitably so.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

When Goku uses SSJG again, he nullifies 70% Beerus' Supernova. SSJ Goku was only so weak because he reverted and lost some power in the movie, but when Goku goes SSJG again Beerus is clearly impressed and maybe even threatened. I think he even says something like that to Goku.

Miracles, I don't think this is adding up. If Beerus had to use 70% of his power, then SSJG Goku clearly pressed him into that level. If he used say, 60 or 50%, he wouldn't have such a comfortable lead. I think the 6/10/15 (Or at least 6/10) scale is definitely implied by the movie.

Whis' saying Goku and Vegeta could keep up in RoF is fine by me, because even SSJG Goku gave him a good fight. But if SSJB is meant to be SSJG + SSJ, then Goku is already a 300 (6x50). Beerus needing 70% doesn't work, as now SSJG wasn't even 2% of his power.

SSJ Broly is almost 50x stronger than SSJB Goku, who in turn is at least 50x stronger than SSJG Goku. And then LSSJ Broly makes Gogeta go SSJB. Now SSJG isn't even 0.001% of Beerus.

After BoGs, if Beerus ever used 70% of his true power, then he would have flicked SSJG Goku away like he did with SSJ3. Hell even 1% would've been enough.

[Miracles]

Beerus > any mortal to this day. Only Whis is stated to be stronger in universe 7. Seems consistent to me with no retcons.

I think it could be considered consistent in DBS since it was unclear how strong Beerus was from the beginning. You're still using two statements from the movies to support your argument when you said earlier you weren't sure why they were removed. There has to be some reason why almost every other line from BoG and RoF were kept the same but they specifically removed two statements from Whis about Beerus' power. Beerus still hasn't mastered UI yet even in the latest saga of the manga so we don't know if he's been training at all since BoG.

No what I said was those lines not being in the series [anime/manga] don't contradict the movie having those sayings. The lines being in DBS TV series and manga series or not does not matter. Since the point of all the mediums is to have Beerus as a future powerhouse Goku and company are chasing. The movies are a separate universe anyway. Toriyama ignored KK Blue and Evolution Vegeta from TOEI. Toriyama has Jiren's power not so different from Goku and Vegeta in Super Hero. We know in the anime/manga Jiren was in another dimension from Goku and Vegeta. It's consistent that Beerus is the man from jump street.

[QuakingStar]

If people are going to take Toriyamas statements of Broly and Cell Max as fact then they have to do the same for Gohan. The word BUT exists in both, and then conditions were given in both statements for the BUT, the condition for Cell Max beating Broly was if CM didn't go berserk. The condition for Gohan being the strongest period was for him to get some of the "limelight" which he does in SH and gets Super Awakening: Beast whereas he zero difs CM. Gohan is quite clearly the strongest character not including Beerus and Whis and Frieza is right near him considering Broly has to be kept on Beerus planet to keep him safe from Frieza.

Toriyama clearly sees it as Gohan >~ Frieza > Broly ~ Cell Max > Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo > the Gammas.

[Miracles]

However, the possible training that Beerus is pursuing Ultra Instinct [RoF] is not being considered.

I'm just talking about Battle of Gods. Whether you want to think Beerus got stronger by Resurrection 'F' is up to you, though there's no evidence to support that.

In any case, Super's ongoing serialization nips this in the bud entirely by displaying a more casual Beerus and remaining non-committal about percentages. If the word "retcon" makes you uncomfortable, you can just say it's a different continuity; either way, that part of the narrative definitely changed when Shueisha decided to make a whole sequel series. No 70% lines to be found.

This is also far from being the only difference between the modern Z movies and Super's version of them. It shouldn't even be an argument that alterations were made, and inevitably so.

First I was not addressing you. It was a general statement to the convo. There is no thinking that Beerus got stronger in RoF, that is simply the fact. Because Whis himself states that in BoG Beerus used 70% power against Red. In RoF, Whis"thinks" that it only "seems" like two Blues can handle Beerus after saying the guy hasn't perfected UI "yet." There is no if's about it, Beerus got stronger due to Whis escalating his strength himself. Then look, DBS: Broly & DBS: Super Hero. All the movies connect, you can not try to isolate one and ignore the rest. Context is king. All those show Beerus is still the man and always has been.

Now the fanfiction is the "retcon" tag being applied to Beerus. The only supposed escape is the TV series and the manga, which don't have the 70% line. So what, the movies, as I said above are different and that still does not mean Beerus was retconed in either of the mediums. Since the anime's and manga don't contradict even without the 70% line. The point, there is no retcon in either of the mediums.

When Goku uses SSJG again, he nullifies 70% Beerus' Supernova. SSJ Goku was only so weak because he reverted and lost some power in the movie, but when Goku goes SSJG again Beerus is clearly impressed and maybe even threatened. I think he even says something like that to Goku.

Miracles, I don't think this is adding up. If Beerus had to use 70% of his power, then SSJG Goku clearly pressed him into that level. If he used say, 60 or 50%, he wouldn't have such a comfortable lead. I think the 6/10/15 (Or at least 6/10) scale is definitely implied by the movie.

Whis' saying Goku and Vegeta could keep up in RoF is fine by me, because even SSJG Goku gave him a good fight. But if SSJB is meant to be SSJG + SSJ, then Goku is already a 300 (6x50). Beerus needing 70% doesn't work, as now SSJG wasn't even 2% of his power.

SSJ Broly is almost 50x stronger than SSJB Goku, who in turn is at least 50x stronger than SSJG Goku. And then LSSJ Broly makes Gogeta go SSJB. Now SSJG isn't even 0.001% of Beerus.

After BoGs, if Beerus ever used 70% of his true power, then he would have flicked SSJG Goku away like he did with SSJ3. Hell even 1% would've been enough.

That's cause people are ignoring the fact that Whis stated Beerus hasn't "quite" perfected UI "yet." Meaning in pursuit; on it's way. Then Whis says Beerus may be handled by two Blue's which obviously means Beerus got stronger. Since a Red back in BoG pushed him to 70%.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That's cause people are ignoring the fact that Whis stated Beerus hasn't "quite" perfected UI "yet." Meaning in pursuit; on it's way. Then Whis says Beerus may be handled by two Blue's which obviously means Beerus got stronger. Since a Red back in BoG pushed him to 70%.

He's definitely been training, but only in the big scheme of things. He may have been training to get UI for like, 10 million years, but in the couple years Super happens all he does is sleep and eat every time we see him. He hasn't retaken his training since he woke up, it's like his day off.

We may see Beerus training again one day, but I think the only explanation for his ever-growing power is in the manga's portrayal of Hakai as the basis for Ultra Ego.

First I was not addressing you.

I'm sorry, I hate to get into other people's business but your reply was right after his, and he was the only person talking about Beerus. It definitely looked like you were.

[Miracles]

That's cause people are ignoring the fact that Whis stated Beerus hasn't "quite" perfected UI "yet." Meaning in pursuit; on it's way. Then Whis says Beerus may be handled by two Blue's which obviously means Beerus got stronger. Since a Red back in BoG pushed him to 70%.

He's definitely been training, but only in the big scheme of things. He may have been training to get UI for like, 10 million years, but in the couple years Super happens all he does is sleep and eat every time we see him. He hasn't retaken his training since he woke up, it's like his day off.

We may see Beerus training again one day, but I think the only explanation for his ever-growing power is in the manga's portrayal of Hakai as the basis for Ultra Ego.

The bottom line is retcon doesn't cut it when the totality of Super movies are factored in.

First I was not addressing you.
I'm sorry, I hate to get into other people's business but your reply was right after his, and he was the only person talking about Beerus. It definitely looked like you were.

Not to be snarky I didn't quote Mr. Baggins. My post [About Beerus training] was just a general statement to the overall convo. Hence why I said it's not being factored in. That's all.

[Hugo Boss]

As Mr. Baggins and GreatSaiyaman said, there is no evidence that Beerus is actively working on Ultra Instinct since his awakening in Battle of Gods. And I don’t see why someone would think that Beerus is secretly training just for the sake of the remote idea that Toriyama is crafting a extreme concise powerscalling justification of always keeping Beerus the top dog. It makes me wonder if this isn’t some kind of self-induced blind devotion.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I see it, it's just a matter of Beerus not necessarily being stronger through simple raw power, but gaining advantages over other strong fighters through other means.

For example, even though Whis said Goku might've been slightly stronger than Vegeta back in the RoF movie, it ultimately didn't amount to a huge difference and the 2 were essentially equals; same with how Goku thought Vegeta may have been slightly stronger than him in the anime when he finally arrived on Beerus's world.

The differences between these fighters in terms of their raw power, in my view, hasn't been big enough to warrant said differences mattering more than the skills and techniques these fighters use at this level of power. For example, Broly is a mad berserker who can't control his huge power, so he ended up getting beaten badly by Gogeta who was just as strong but was an expert martial artist.

Could be a similar case with Beerus where his raw power, even if not explicitly as much, is close enough that his martial arts experience and special techniques unique to him make him a formidable threat still.

[Skar]

No what I said was those lines not being in the series [anime/manga] don't contradict the movie having those sayings. The lines being in DBS TV series and manga series or not does not matter. Since the point of all the mediums is to have Beerus as a future powerhouse Goku and company are chasing. The movies are a separate universe anyway. Toriyama ignored KK Blue and Evolution Vegeta from TOEI. Toriyama has Jiren's power not so different from Goku and Vegeta in Super Hero. We know in the anime/manga Jiren was in another dimension from Goku and Vegeta. It's consistent that Beerus is the man from jump street.

But your argument now is that Beerus has been secretly training offscreen because he hadn't quite mastered UI in RoF. Whis never comments on his power growing throughout DBS in either continuity when he sees Beerus fighting. Broly is part of the DBS continuity that ignored those statements from BoG and RoF since he used SSJ and SSJG against Broly instead of Saiyan Beyond God from RoF.

The other problem is trying to make the scale in BoG fit with DBS or Broly is that Whis is a 15 so 1.5x stronger than Beerus. There's not much room for Beerus to train offscreen and become several times stronger than the initial SSJG without surpassing Whis. Nothing implied the difference between Beerus and Whis changed in DBS and only that SSJG starts out at a much smaller percentage of Beerus' power so that Goku could get several times stronger but still remain weaker than Beerus.

[Hugo Boss]

Could be a similar case with Beerus where his raw power, even if not explicitly as much, is close enough that his martial arts experience and special techniques unique to him make him a formidable threat still.

I think you can use that argument when you compare Beerus and Broly, but honestly I don’t see Beerus far outstripping Goku or Vegeta using purely martial art skills or unique techniques. Whenever Goku compares himself to Beerus, he is always highlighting the difference in power between them. And when Vegeta used Jiren’s skill to beat Goku he barely managed to win. Of course, Vegeta wasn’t as skilled as Jiren, but I don’t think Beerus is better than Jiren in that aspect either.

[Mr Baggins]

All those show Beerus is still the man and always has been.

Cool. Nobody's disputing this.

This, however:

There is no if's about it, Beerus got stronger due to Whis escalating his strength himself.

...is where you fall headfirst into blatant "making shit up" territory. Seriously, what? Whis mentions nothing about Beerus growing a lot stronger between the Z movies. Dude could have started learning UI's principles a gazillion years ago, not to mention that if anything, Res 'F' is consistent with BoG in having the Saiyans approach his general level.

Super, on the other hand, is consistent about neither Goku nor Vegeta ever being anywhere close to Beerus regardless of how many forms they've got up their sleeves. All those numerical comparisons were clearly omitted for a reason, not to mention all the countless other examples that show the details between BoG/RF and Super being markedly different.

The only fanfiction here is the assumption that a lazy bum like Beerus is getting a bunch of great mysterious unseen boosts in power while taking naps between story arcs. Not even close, my dude.