Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Where do you think the GoDs and GoD tier guys like Jiren, Broly, Goku, Beast Gohan, etc would rank if we used the Freeza army as a scale? For example:

1st form Freeza: Beerus

Between Ginyu-1st form Freeza: Blue Gogeta, Vegetto, Broly, UI Goku?

Ginyu: Jiren, other GoDs

Ginyu Force:

Elite (Zarbon, Dodoria):

Raditz: SSJG (or maybe the next tier)

For the sake of using all tiers, the math won't add up (Raditz x 50 is almost Ginyu tier, but SSJB will be a lower tier). I think all GoDs were on the same tier, Beerus is way above the weakest GoD (Belmond?) but not many times stronger, otherwise he'd have solo'd the Battle Royale. The thing with Beerus is that using Hakai makes him stronger, that's the principle Vegeta adapts for Ultra Ego.

1st form Freeza: Beerus (Ultra Ego/Destruction)

Between Ginyu and 1st form Freeza: Freeza, Gohan Beast

Captain Ginyu: Cell MAX, Gas, TUI Goku, UE Vegeta, Granola

Ginyu Force: UI Goku, Moro, Jiren, Hakaishins (Including Beerus), Orange Piccolo

Elites: SSJB and rivals (Toppo, 17, Kefla, Saganbo, Zamasu...)

Raditz: SSJG

The fact that you can’t pinpoint exactly where the line is draw (I suppose between Cell Games Goku and Cell Games Vegeta is a shot in the dark) makes me think perhaps this is not supposed to be read way too much as some people usually do.

Isn't trying to pin down an exact level overthinking? This is basically seeing Goku shoot a Kamehameha and asking "Who's the weakest person that could survive this?" when it's not very relevant. We know Goku can handle it but Kaioshin can't. It's somewhere in between in a gap that could be very large or very small.

Saying the attack affected Goku as if he was in SSJB makes even less sense and actually requires reaching. Is this something in Goku's body, or in the technique itself?

I don’t read that as scrapping the bottom. Beerus only says “a God of Destruction in another universe”, he doesn’t say an universe with the weakest God of Destruction. Scrapping the bottom is probably something you could say about Super Saiyan God, as this is the form that Goku was using when Iwan said his fight against Toppo was at the level of a fight between Gods of Destruction.

"In another universe" means he can't be a candidate in his universe. This sounds like a jab at other gods, even before we find out Beerus might be the strongest of the gods.

The Moro Saga seems to make a distinction between God Ki and Divine Power (Goku complains lacking the later when Planet Moro pins him down, Dai Kaioshin says the same and goes get Uub). I'm not sure what this means exactly, but it might have something to do with how the GoDs react to Goku - It's both the size and quality of his Ki, "As if he's a god", as Helles says.

A possibility that comes to mind is that Supreme Kais’ body is not suited for traditional combat, while Goku and Toppo’s muscles are used to withstand heavy shocks, since they are seasoned warriors. The Angels are unaffected probably because ultra instinct makes their body extremely tough, unlike the Gods of Destruction that don’t have that ability.

This is certainly possible. I always liked to see Kaioshin as being very fragile and physically weak. I can't even imagine that guy throwing a punch, but those Eye Kiais he used when fighting Majin Boo were pretty powerful. He does survive two pretty big beatings from Majin Boo (One millions of years ago and one in the Boo Saga), but survival feats are very subjective.

We see some that are fighters like Zamasu or South Kaioshin (And according to Toei's website, U2's Kaioshin Pell is into physical fitness), but they could very well be the exception.

[ankokudaishogun]

We have no idea how strong Caulifla is, but I trust the anime saying she’s on pair with Goku.

The anime is pretty explicit in her being outclassed by Goku.
It DOES focus on her skill rather than power, though, which increases a lot during the fight itself

It stands to reason she's roughly on the same level as Goku as far as pure power goes, same as Cabba with Vegeta.

So yeah, they’re more or less the same. Caulifla might be weaker than Zamasu, but this explains why Merged Zamasu rivals Goku while Kefla only rivals Gohan.

It's worth to note that Manga Kale got SENSIBLY tired before fusing(hell, it was one of the reason behind the fusion), and the fusion didn't restore any stamina.

And Manga Caulifla, while a talented fighter, doesn't seem to be the super-duper fighting genius she's in the anime.
In fact: she's ONLY Super Saiyan ONE in the manga. She doesn't reach SS2 like in the anime.

So Manga Kefla is already at a disadvantage in components: Zamasu is about SS2 in both anime and manga

Plus I don't think we got any benchmark for Gohan's manga power in ToP? Also, Merged Zamasu was immortal an untiring. It was the main problem with him, rather than just his power-level

[Hugo Boss]

Isn't trying to pin down an exact level overthinking? This is basically seeing Goku shoot a Kamehameha and asking "Who's the weakest person that could survive this?" when it's not very relevant. We know Goku can handle it but Kaioshin can't. It's somewhere in between in a gap that could be very large or very small.

Saying the attack affected Goku as if he was in SSJB makes even less sense and actually requires reaching. Is this something in Goku's body, or in the technique itself?

I think this is more or less the same scenario of Base Gohan lifting the Z Sword, while Shin and Kibito couldn’t. They are physically weaker than Base Gohan, but in a actual fight Kibito is supposed to be a difficult opponent for Gohan, while Shin can beat him as long as he doesn’t use Super Saiyan. Probably they are specialized in spiritual energy or magic, making them tough foes for one unprepared.

The Moro Saga seems to make a distinction between God Ki and Divine Power (Goku complains lacking the later when Planet Moro pins him down, Dai Kaioshin says the same and goes get Uub). I'm not sure what this means exactly, but it might have something to do with how the GoDs react to Goku - It's both the size and quality of his Ki, "As if he's a god", as Helles says.

Helles’ observation is related to that, but I’m specifically referencing what Iwan said: “This fight is already on the level of gods”, while Goku was using Super Saiyan God.

[Mr Baggins]

Yeah, the level/realm of the gods is a term introduced in the BoG arc to essentially describe a long tier of power that starts with Super Saiyan God and goes up to Beerus and beyond. SSG-level strength is likely the bare minimum that one would need to qualify as a God of Destruction candidate.

Most characters tend to be either comfortably within that range or nowhere near it.

[ankokudaishogun]

I have a doubt: was "God Ki" ever used as a term in-story?

I recall "Level\Realm of the Gods" and "Divine Power", but no specific reference to some form of Ki specific of the Gods

[Thani]

I have a doubt: was "God Ki" ever used as a term in-story?

I recall "Level\Realm of the Gods" and "Divine Power", but no specific reference to some form of Ki specific of the Gods

Not sure with those words, but in BoG Whis said that mortals can't sense a god's ki, while Dende (aka God) could and was astonished by Beerus.

So there was at least a distinction made between regular ki and a god's ki.

[Skar]

For the sake of using all tiers, the math won't add up (Raditz x 50 is almost Ginyu tier, but SSJB will be a lower tier). I think all GoDs were on the same tier, Beerus is way above the weakest GoD (Belmond?) but not many times stronger, otherwise he'd have solo'd the Battle Royale. The thing with Beerus is that using Hakai makes him stronger, that's the principle Vegeta adapts for Ultra Ego.

Good list! I think it could be something like that. I was wondering since I've heard that Blue is 50x God but is there anything that implied it's that big? I know it's based on the old 50x multiplier but I mean if Toei and Toyotaro are writing the story with that big of a powerup in mind. I recall the Champa saga in the manga implied Blue might only be 10x God.

[Koitsukai]

Where do you think the GoDs and GoD tier guys like Jiren, Broly, Goku, Beast Gohan, etc would rank if we used the Freeza army as a scale? For example:

1st form Freeza: Beerus, Black Freeza*, Gohan.

Between Ginyu-1st form Freeza: Cell Max, Gas, Granola, Goku, Vegeta

Ginyu: Jiren, Broly, Moro, SSB Gogeta, ToP UI, Orange Piccolo

Ginyu Force: Toppo, Kefla, Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo, Merged Zamasu, MSSB, Hit.

Elite (Zarbon, Dodoria): SSR Black, Dyspo, 17, Incomplete SSB, LSS Kale.

Elite Saiyan: BoG Beerus.

Nappa: SSG.

Raditz: Super Vegito.

*I know I'm repeating myself here, but it was treated as such a big deal, the balance of the universe being shifted -and as a bad thing, too-, that if it isn't somebody (a bad dude, I don't see how Gohan doing it would be a problem) reaching that level, then I don't know what the hell it was supposed to mean.
But if this ain't it, then I'd have Beerus be alone on 2nd form Freeza level.

So, BoG is the saiyan arc, RoF and FT arc are the Namek arc, the ToP is the Ginyu Tokusentai arc, the end of the ToP, Broly movie and Moro arc represent the Ginyu arc, and Granola and SH are the Freeza arc.

[Hugo Boss]

For the sake of using all tiers, the math won't add up (Raditz x 50 is almost Ginyu tier, but SSJB will be a lower tier). I think all GoDs were on the same tier, Beerus is way above the weakest GoD (Belmond?) but not many times stronger, otherwise he'd have solo'd the Battle Royale. The thing with Beerus is that using Hakai makes him stronger, that's the principle Vegeta adapts for Ultra Ego.

Good list! I think it could be something like that. I was wondering since I've heard that Blue is 50x God but is there anything that implied it's that big? I know it's based on the old 50x multiplier but I mean if Toei and Toyotaro are writing the story with that big of a powerup in mind. I recall the Champa saga in the manga implied Blue might only be 10x God.

I would say originally Super Saiyan Blue could be 50x Base, based on the description that the form had when it debuted on RoF. Or maybe it merely added an extra percentage (like 10%~50%) considering that Goku and Vegeta were still weaker than Beerus and he was 66,6% above Super Saiyan God.

The manga makes a point about Vegeta not being able to exert even 1/10 of Super Saiyan Blue power if he uses it in succession. At least, not until he overcome that weakness. Then, Hit suggests Super Saiyan God is in a completely different level, so it was probably far beyond the 1/10 Blue mark (like 3/10 or 4/10). Hit’s battle power likely transits between 1/10 and 9/10 Blue.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Good list! I think it could be something like that. I was wondering since I've heard that Blue is 50x God but is there anything that implied it's that big? I know it's based on the old 50x multiplier but I mean if Toei and Toyotaro are writing the story with that big of a powerup in mind. I recall the Champa saga in the manga implied Blue might only be 10x God.

Imperfect Blue is indeed not even 10x God as Hugo said. Perfected Blue is a whole other talk, though. If it's the full power of SSJB locked inside the body, then I think it's the full 50x boost of SSJ.

The gap between Perfected Blue and God is fairly large from what we see. Granted fusion isn't that much when it's not Goku and Vegeta, but folks like Goku Black and Kale go from Imperfected to Perfected Blue level with fusion. Moro also absorbs a shit ton of energy for several chapters and is still below PSSJB after absorbing all of Namek.

I recall "Level\Realm of the Gods" and "Divine Power", but no specific reference to some form of Ki specific of the Gods

Good question. A quick Ctrl+F through Strength Checkers gives no results. Maybe God Ki is the Zenkai of Super, a fanmade word that creeped into canon... but I suspect M14 and 15 might have something.

I think this is more or less the same scenario of Base Gohan lifting the Z Sword, while Shin and Kibito couldn’t. They are physically weaker than Base Gohan, but in a actual fight Kibito is supposed to be a difficult opponent for Gohan, while Shin can beat him as long as he doesn’t use Super Saiyan. Probably they are specialized in spiritual energy or magic, making them tough foes for one unprepared.

This is actually fairly convincing. I wouldn't say Kaioshin can't hold the Z Sword since we never see him try that, but he's more or less like Dende who has a lot of Ki, but not for brawling. He has some techniques sure, but no meat in his arms. Reminds me of Goku and Kuririn pushing a boulder Roshi couldn't back in the beginning of the series, right before the 21st Budokai.

When it comes to durability, it's suggested Dai Kaioshin saved him in the first fight, and in the second Boo was toying with him and only got rid of Gohan and Dabra because they were annoying him. Kaioshin also takes a beating from Future Zamasu, but Black and Zamasu were so incompetent they couldn't even kill Mai...

[Koitsukai]

I've tried to scale the Moro arc. I’m uncertain if this belongs here or on that other thread.

For reference, the ToP:

Spoiler:

ToP SSB: 15B
Blue KK: 20-25B
SSBE Vegeta: 30B

Goku Sign: 50 B
--UI: 75 B

Jiren (supressed): 40 B
--Powered up vs Omen: 50 B
--FP: 60 B
---Final power up: 75 B (gradual growth)

Namek portion:

Spoiler:

Old Moro: 70,000M
(Between SS3 and SSG, I have him as strong as Z Ultimate Gohan or so)

SSG Vegeta: 1,6B

Moro Old + Magic: 1,7B
(Enough magic to overpower SSG)

SSB Vegeta: 16B
(Geets probably used a fraction of that, enough to get the upperhand)

Moro + Namek: 1,7B
(as strong as before without resorting to magic)

Moro + Namek + saiyans: 2B

Namekian Savior: 2M
(I know, but I just can’t pretend they had this trump card and didn’t use it back in Namek, this is still a lot, enough to kill 1st form Freeza, Dodoria and Zarbon in one single blow). If for some reason these nameks were born after Namek disappeared, then they can be like 500M.

Dai Buu: 2,5B

Dai 10M year ago: 4B
(With god ki, above SSB, Moro said present Dai wasn’t as good as 10M years ago))

Moro Magic Back: 6B

Saganbo pre-Moro: 90,000
(Vegeta said Trunks could take him out, so he’s fodder, I place him below Ginyu because the Heaters were said to be above that level)

Saganbo post-Moro: 90,000M
(IDK, enough to suckerpunch SS3?)

Moro -no beard, almost rejuvenated, post Namek: 12B
(It's unclear how strong Moro has gotten, but this power will be copied by 7-3 to fight on Earth, and he'll lose to 17, so still below SSB)

Earth portion:

Spoiler:

Maccareni Bros: Dodoria-Zarbon level.

Piccolo: 25,000M
(that’s Z Fat Buu tier)

7-3 Piccolo: 25,000M + infinite stamina

Gohan: 15B

7-3-Moro: 12B
(They were already on the “road”, so he must’ve copied an incomplete Moro)

Monster Yuzun: 100,000
(Saganbo said Yuzun transformed was unmatched, I assume he might be above Saganbo)

Piccolo: 60,000M
(More than doubling his previous power after training with Gohan for two months, around Z Ultimate Gohan)

7-3 Gohan: 17B

Android 17: 15,1B
(I assume 7-3 can use Moro’s previous power (12B), not his current power nobody could match, even though he has his FP stored)

Shimorekka: 200M
A-18: 900,000M
(IDK, her brother grew really strong, she has trained a few times and doesn’t seem to be completely left behind)

Saganbo: 30B
- powered up: 40B
- second PU: 45B

Final Bout, 1st round:

Spoiler:

SSB Goku: 50B

Sign Goku: 70B

Supressed Moro: 70B

Moro: 75B

FP Sign Goku (proto TUI): 74B

SSBE Vegeta: 72B
(I know there’s a line saying Vegeta is stronger, but the fight doesn’t show that, and the context was about their utility, not their power: Vegeta saved the day)

Final Bout, 2nd round:

Spoiler:

SS Broly: 48B

FPSS Broly: 75B
(For reference, I included Broly, and lumped him together with Moro and Jiren, it’s uncertain who’s on top of who, so the safest way is to have them as equals for now)

Moro 7-3: 90B

Suppressed Merus: 92B

Movie SSB Gogeta: 90B
Current SSB Gogeta: 100B
(Now here's a problem. I can see movie Gogeta not having such an easy time like against Broly, vs Moro7-3, thus unfusing when he gets hit, but... a Moro arc SSB Gogeta should be as strong as UI Goku, at least, so he should be more than capable of dodging Moro7-3 and not succumbing to Spirit Fission.... Initially I had movie Gogeta at 100B, but to accomodate this fusion-fission thing, I now go with 90B (so he is not that far away from Broly), and 100B, so Moro7-3 remains weaker but is close enough to defuse him)

UI Goku: 120B
(Strong enough to beat Moro7-3 easier than Gogeta beat Broly)

Angel Moro: 120B

Merus: 120B

SSB Goku + Zetto senshi's power: 75B
(Temporary boost and an unuseful one, but hey, why not include it?)

Planet Moro: 125B
(Beerus said Goku could dodge Planet Moro but Moro would keep on absorbing energy, so he should grow stronger)

Giant Goku: 130B
(Who knows what that was, but he overpowered Planet Moro after absorbing a lot of energy from Earth)

No multipliers were taken into account, because well, they are made up and they are mostly plot-dependant. Only SSG (10xSS3) and 10x for SSB I kept, and boy was there a lot of room for most of the arc to happen within a 10x gap.

Also, SSB Gogeta is a pain in the ass, his multiplier doesn’t make sense, things would be really easy if Moro7-3 wasn’t said to be the toughest, or if Broly wasn’t part of U7 during the Granola arc. But it is what it is, and we can’t accomodate the story to the arbitrary numbers we come up with, it’s the other way around, actually.

[shadd21]

Random question, How well would the U9 wolf trio fair against the movie villains of Z? Both as a group and in 1v1

[Skar]

Imperfect Blue is indeed not even 10x God as Hugo said. Perfected Blue is a whole other talk, though. If it's the full power of SSJB locked inside the body, then I think it's the full 50x boost of SSJ.

Ah ok I forgot about Completed Blue. I wonder how it works for the films and anime since a mastered Blue did exist there. The anime had Blue Evolution which I think was said to be equal to Goku's KKx20. It's hard to tell the difference between God and Blue in Broly since his power kept rising during the battle.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I've tried to scale the Moro arc. I’m uncertain if this belongs here or on that other thread.

The other thread probably makes more sense if it has numbers, but this is just a spin-off of that one so whatever.

I like the smaller numbers. SSJBE just being 2x and UI being just 5x. If Toyotaro has numbers in mind, it's definitely nothing big since he skipped Broly.

I don't think Moro's magic really counts as worth listing. It's a completely separate thing from power.

The manga actually explains the Namekians came up with the idea of mass fusing after the Freeza Invasion, that's why the Namekian Savior didn't exist in the Freeza Saga. It also seemed like the villages had little contact back then and didn't know about the invasion. Never really gave much thought about Namekian Savior, though... He could be literally anywhere between Nappa and SSJG. I'd say it's something worth messing with numbers and multipliers just to have a clue.

I think discussing the powers of the Galactic Patrol is very interesting, and something I'd like to see more comments on (Along with the Namekian Savior, although NS is more fitting for the power levels thread). The Heeters knew about them and still acted like Gas was the strongest person they knew (after Freeza ofc), so maybe most (if not all) of the Brigade is below 1st form Freeza?

I wouldn't place them on Ginyu level and below because I imagine the humans are somewhat above Ginyu (At least Kuririn is: He was so close at 75k on Namek), but they're on the same level as the Heeters at least. I think the Maccareni bro's are sub-1000 though, I can see them giving BoZ characters a good fight. Even Shimorekka himself isn't going past 10k if Jaco of all people could fight him.

A very interesting thing I've seen pointed out elsewhere: Seven-Three is only said to copy power, not speed or durability. Maybe that's why Gohan and 17 beat him up so easily? Jaco already hyped up 73 as strong even without copying, so maybe he's close to Piccolo normally... Or maybe 73 could just use Moro's magic (Moro has to explain he also had his power saved inside 73 later), but the speed/durability thing makes more sense for me.

Ah ok I forgot about Completed Blue. I wonder how it works for the films and anime since a mastered Blue did exist there. The anime had Blue Evolution which I think was said to be equal to Goku's KKx20. It's hard to tell the difference between God and Blue in Broly since his power kept rising during the battle.

Sounds like Blue's stamina issue was solved back when Goku and Vegeta were training with Whis in the anime/movie, around the time of Rof or U6. Or maybe it simply never existed.

If we want to keeps things simple in the movies...

Goku/Vegeta: 1
~ SSJ: 5
~ SSJG: 25
~ SSJB: 50

Broly: 5
~ Ikari: 50

I don't mind Broly getting a more than 10x boost since as you said, Broly's power was always rising, but this is as simple as it gets.

[Koitsukai]

I think discussing the powers of the Galactic Patrol is very interesting, and something I'd like to see more comments on (Along with the Namekian Savior, although NS is more fitting for the power levels thread). The Heeters knew about them and still acted like Gas was the strongest person they knew (after Freeza ofc), so maybe most (if not all) of the Brigade is below 1st form Freeza?

I wouldn't place them on Ginyu level and below because I imagine the humans are somewhat above Ginyu (At least Kuririn is: He was so close at 75k on Namek), but they're on the same level as the Heeters at least. I think the Maccareni bro's are sub-1000 though, I can see them giving BoZ characters a good fight. Even Shimorekka himself isn't going past 10k if Jaco of all people could fight him.

A very interesting thing I've seen pointed out elsewhere: Seven-Three is only said to copy power, not speed or durability. Maybe that's why Gohan and 17 beat him up so easily? Jaco already hyped up 73 as strong even without copying, so maybe he's close to Piccolo normally... Or maybe 73 could just use Moro's magic (Moro has to explain he also had his power saved inside 73 later), but the speed/durability thing makes more sense for me.

7-3 should definitely be unable to copy durability, specially because his own works better than most(he even survived Moro's death), and the same attacks that worked on him, weren't working on Moro.
But Jaco says he can copy even punches and kicks, because they are "techniques", so the speed of a punch or a kick should be the same as the guy's he just stole it from. Since flying is also a technique, he should be able to fly just as fast as the guy he copied it from.
Jaco sums it up as if you are fighting yourself, if he just copied you that is, no mention about speed not being part of the deal, and the fight supports it, he's dead even with Piccolo and when he fights with Gohan's power, he is taken down by teamwork.
17 beats him up fair and square, but I assume Moro let himself get copied before he reached his peak, while he was still below blue tier, it happened before that gang went on the road, at least two months before Moro got to Earth. So having a copy of a previous Moro, explains for me, why he wasn't a big deal.

His usage of Moro's data seems restricted, too, he knows he cannot eat the energy gathered, that's for Moro, so I think he got access only to his magic, it is said that it's a last resort thing.
7-3 being close to Piccolo seems about right, I've placed Piccolo around SS2-SS3 tier from Z, so he'd be a big deal around the universe. A tad too big of a deal now that I think about it, considering the Heaters were Supressed Namek Freeza level at best. Yauzogi, I think it was, said 7-3 was empty and they filled him up with data to make him stronger.
Bonus trivia: Old Moro, whom I had like twice Z SS3, ate him up like he was a piece of bread, so current SS level seems a fair spot for him.

Good call about Shimorekka, I completely missed his fight with Jaco. He must've been powered a bit for his second trip to Earth though, he survived 18, something I doubt Jaco could do. He ended up in better shape than 7-3.

Yunba seems to be a bit stronger than Krilin, who won by pure skill and wits. Who knows how strong the guys are by now? low millions? 10M? 20M? If K was 15, I'd say Y was 20M.
If Tenshinhan is 10M, then Metalman shouldn't be more than that... Tenshinhan was fast enough to dodge him. But it's an odd enough character to fit the typical scaling...
Kikaza, Waza, Miza: they lost to Roshi, so they might be saiyan arc tier, with his bootleg UI Roshi could be anywhere. Their fusion, though, should be 30M or so.
Zauyogi was beating Yamcha(8M?) and Tenshinhan(10M), so 20M would be good enough for a guy that seems to be right behind the main criminals of the gang.
I might be highballing the Zetto Senshi, but in any case the gap between their powers should be accurate.

[ZombieVito]

Random question, How well would the U9 wolf trio fair against the movie villains of Z? Both as a group and in 1v1

Bergamo solos all the old Z movie villains. Maybe he needs his brothers for the M13 villain but his ability could also give him the win there.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Random question, How well would the U9 wolf trio fair against the movie villains of Z? Both as a group and in 1v1

Basil is often compared to Majin Vegeta. I think he would have an interesting fight

Lavender is complicated. He’s very weak without poison and would probably lose to Organic Cooler. Metal Cooler, Super 13, Janemba and Hirudegarn are probably immune to his poison, but it should work on Broly and Bojack at least.

Bergamo likely clears the old movies. Only Janemba and Hirudegarn would make him use his energy absorption power.

Together, they might even beat M14 Beerus and M15 Golden Freeza if them forcing Goku and Vegeta to go Blue was genuine.

7-3 should definitely be unable to copy durability, specially because his own works better than most(he even survived Moro's death), and the same attacks that worked on him, weren't working on Moro.
But Jaco says he can copy even punches and kicks, because they are "techniques", so the speed of a punch or a kick should be the same as the guy's he just stole it from. Since flying is also a technique, he should be able to fly just as fast as the guy he copied it from.
Jaco sums it up as if you are fighting yourself, if he just copied you that is, no mention about speed not being part of the deal, and the fight supports it, he's dead even with Piccolo and when he fights with Gohan's power, he is taken down by teamwork.
17 beats him up fair and square, but I assume Moro let himself get copied before he reached his peak, while he was still below blue tier, it happened before that gang went on the road, at least two months before Moro got to Earth. So having a copy of a previous Moro, explains for me, why he wasn't a big deal.

His usage of Moro's data seems restricted, too, he knows he cannot eat the energy gathered, that's for Moro, so I think he got access only to his magic, it is said that it's a last resort thing.
7-3 being close to Piccolo seems about right, I've placed Piccolo around SS2-SS3 tier from Z, so he'd be a big deal around the universe. A tad too big of a deal now that I think about it, considering the Heaters were Supressed Namek Freeza level at best. Yauzogi, I think it was, said 7-3 was empty and they filled him up with data to make him stronger.
Bonus trivia: Old Moro, whom I had like twice Z SS3, ate him up like he was a piece of bread, so current SS level seems a fair spot for him.

Good call about Shimorekka, I completely missed his fight with Jaco. He must've been powered a bit for his second trip to Earth though, he survived 18, something I doubt Jaco could do. He ended up in better shape than 7-3.

Yunba seems to be a bit stronger than Krilin, who won by pure skill and wits. Who knows how strong the guys are by now? low millions? 10M? 20M? If K was 15, I'd say Y was 20M.
If Tenshinhan is 10M, then Metalman shouldn't be more than that... Tenshinhan was fast enough to dodge him. But it's an odd enough character to fit the typical scaling...
Kikaza, Waza, Miza: they lost to Roshi, so they might be saiyan arc tier, with his bootleg UI Roshi could be anywhere. Their fusion, though, should be 30M or so.
Zauyogi was beating Yamcha(8M?) and Tenshinhan(10M), so 20M would be good enough for a guy that seems to be right behind the main criminals of the gang.
I might be highballing the Zetto Senshi, but in any case the gap between their powers should be accurate.

Yeah, 73 probably does copy speed. I assume he just wasn’t allowed to use his power then. I think he does absorb a Kamehameha Gohan fired at him, though. Where else would it go? And how strong 73 get stronger from that?

As for the other Galactic Brigade members…

Saganbo: 600,000
Yuzun: 460,000 - 575,000
Zayiufofgi (How do you write this name): 500,000
Yunba: 400,000
Bikkura Quoitur: 400,000 (May be slow given his size, I think Magetta was since Vegeta dodged him)
Girls: 200,000 (600,000 merged)
Shimorekka: 5,000? (I think 18 was just lazy tbh)

Humans:

Kuririn: 400,000
Tenshinhan: 300,000
Yamcha: 150,000
Chaozu: 30,000
Master Roshi: 15,000 (300,000 Feeling like it)

[Hugo Boss]

Random question, How well would the U9 wolf trio fair against the movie villains of Z? Both as a group and in 1v1

1 vs 1, I think they all fair very well against Coola and the others below, but they struggle against the ones above, especially Lavender.

I would say Bergamo may be able to go toe-to-toe with Janemba in his first form, but he loses to Janemba’s second form. Basil is probably evenly matched with Bojack, while Lavender is on Meta Coola’s level.

As a team, it’s difficult to say, but I don’t think it’s required go that far into god level, considering they aren’t even SS3 level on their own, but maybe they could beat all villains until Hirudegarn. Freeza would be too much for them.

[Miracles]

When 73 had Piccolo's powers and Gohan showed up and started wrecking stuff. 73's partner said to take Gohan's abilities since he is "stronger." Then Gohan would of been fighting a copy of himself. Punches and kicks the same.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think this is my definitive movie-verse scale. It was going to be a tier list, but I think numbers are easier to read and to get the point across. Tier lists always have a bunch of names jumbled together, and numbers are fine if you cut the zeroes. Explanations and speculations also inside the spoiler.

It's a bit surprising how consistent the movies are, even on stuff as confusing as Base Goku's power. The animanga-only sagas are mere speculation based on Toriyama's notes and what's more remarkable and makes the most sense (Since being more memorable means it's more likely for AT to remember).

Spoiler:

Battle of Gods

Goku: 1
~ SSJ: 50
~ SSJ2: 100
~ SSJ3: 400

SSJ Gotenks: 40
Ultimate Gohan: 400
SSJ2 Vegeta (Enraged): 1,000

Vegeta thinks nobody can stop Beerus since he beat Goku, and Vegeta was the only one who could hold his own with Beerus even before rage.

SSJG Goku (80%): 80,000

Goku (Post SSJG): 4,000
~ SSJ: 20,000
~ SSJG: 100,000

Beerus ("70%", actually 2%): 125,000

Everything here is self explanatory. The original movie didn't say Goku absorbed all of SSJG's power, only some of it, but he still needed SSJG in order to nullify Beerus's attack.

Revival of Freeza

Goku/Vegeta: 4,000
~ SSJB: 200,000

Freeza: 3,500
~ Golden form: 250,000

This movie sort of suggests SSJG became base and SSJB because SSJ, but the intent was stronger in AT's interviews at the time and in hindsight it's clearly not the case.

Serialized sagas

Piccolo: 4,000
Frost (4th form): 12,000

Magetta: 20,000

Cabba: 4,000
~ SSJ: 20,000

Hit: 150,000

Other than maybe Piccolo (Whose power IMO is like 17's: AT just felt like making him strong after making him Zarbon-level in M15), everyone here is self explanatory. Hit is in the middle spot between SSJG and SSJB, but we know for a fact he's behind Blue since it's in both anime and manga.

SSJ2 Goku: 25,000
~ SSJ3: 50,000

SSJ2 Future Trunks: 25,000
~ SSJ Rage: 225,000(?)

Goku uses SSJ2 and 3 in both manga and anime so it must be in Toriyama's notes. But it's just to show them to Trunks, but they don't give the same boost anymore. Black being SSJ3 and Trunks being SSJ2 (He's only SSJ3 in the anime with the new boost) is also in both versions.
If Super Hero shows half bloods can get new forms via anger, then why not give Trunks one? However, as memorable as it is, this form wasn't Toriyama's idea, so I'll leave a question mark to show this is merely hypothetical.


Goku Black: 56,250
~ SSJR: 225,000

Future Zamasu: 20,000

I'm not sure how exactly Black is stronger than Goku. Maybe it's because he's from 1 year later? Zamasu is weaker than Trunks in both versions, so it must have been in Toriyama's script. Black getting Zenkais is also Toriyama's idea, but we don't have enough information to list that or Black's golden SSJ form (which seems to have just been a suggestion since the anime skips it).

Goku/Vegeta (Post training): 5,000
~ SSJB: 250,000

Vegeta going to the Rosat and beating Goku Black is in both versions. The manga gives a fancier explanation, but movie SSJB is not meant to have crippling stamina.

Merged Zamasu: 300,000

Vegetto: 300,000
~ SSJB: 15,000,000

In the original script Merged Zamasu is just strong enough that he can stop SSJBs individually, but not together. The anime kept a bit of this by having the Saiyans team up and wear him down. Vegetto wasn't Toriyama's idea but both Toei and Toyotaro talked him into allowing it, so it's canon.

Android 17: 200,000
Ultimate Gohan: 200,000
Golden Freeza: 250,000

Both are Blue level in anime and manga, but slightly behind the peak SSJBs. Freeza is said to have been training, meaning AT does acknowledge Goku and Vegeta surpassing RoF Golden Freeza. But for simplicity's sake, I'll assume he just focused on his stamina issues.

Caulifla: 5,000
~ SSJ: 25,000

Kale: 10,000
~ SSJ: 50,000
~ LSSJ: 200,000

Kefla: 40,000 ~ 50,000
~ SSJ: 200,000 ~ 250,000

The girls (and the ToP as a whole) are a bit confusing since the ToP was a full team effort between Toriyama, Toyotaro and Toei. But Kale does make Goku go Blue in both versions, and SSJ Kefla is Blue tier in both versions.

Dyspo: 100,000
Toppo: 250,000

Toppo is easy, but Dyspo is a complete speculation since his power wildly varies on both versions. His just-behind-Blue super speed is only explicitly brought up in the anime, but strongly suggested in the manga. Hakaishin Toppo is not canon since SSJBE Vegeta doesn't exist in the movies.

Jiren: 6,000,000

UI Goku (Sign): 2,500,000
~ Complete: 6,250,000

Sign was not Toriyama's creation, but was still incorporated into the story by the writers.

Broly

Goku/Vegeta: 5,000
~ SSJ: 25,000
~ SSJG: 125,000
~ SSJB: 250,000

Base --> SSJ --> SSJG --> SSJB is actually the natural evolution looking at BoGs. RoF may go with just Base --> SSJB, but in context it's clear Goku and Vegeta just meant business and skipped the middle forms.

Broly: 25,000
~ Ikari: 250,000
~ SSJ: 1,250,000
~ LSSJ: 6,250,000

The SSJ multipliers are all based around Broly: Fights SSJ in base, but overwhelms God and keeps with Blue by going Oozaru. Possibly stronger than Beerus as a LSSJ and made Gogeta skip God straight to Blue.

Gogeta: 250,000
~ SSJ: 1,250,000
~ SSJB: 12,500,000

Super Hero

Piccolo: 5,400
~ Ultimate form: 180,000
~ Orange form: 900,000

Not exactly on pair with Goku as much as far surpassing him, but still reached his league in the movie after years on base level.

Gohan: 4,000
~ SSJ: 20,000
~ Ultimate: 200,000
~ Beast: 5,000,000

Gamma 1&2: 200,000 each

Cell MAX (Incomplete): 2,000,000
~ Complete: 8,000,000?

Toriyama falls into contradiction with the movie and his notes: Hedo says Cell was complete, but Toriyama says he wasn't. I'll take Toriyama's word: Being complete could just mean his basic structure, not his full power. Like a premature birth.