Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

[SupremeKai25]

SupremeKai25, did you even like Dragon Ball before the Zamasu arc aired?

It's funny that you would mention Zamasu in this thread. A few people always complain that Zamasu monologued too much; but maybe, if the Shadow Dragons were written a bit more like Zamasu, we wouldn't have spent the last pages arguing wtf the Shadow Dragons/Old Kai meant about the "negative consequences" of overusing the wishes. The talk in this thread about reviving people is headcanon as it is never brought up by anyone in the story. Reviving people is unnatural, but the story never brings up any negative consequences of this act. People in this thread argued that it's a problem if some earthlings get revived, but the story never explains why this is an issue. Meanwhile, the Super story clearly explained the negative consequences of time travel with even flashbacks to the original series to elaborate on its point.

On top of this, the idea of the GT Shadow Dragons is terrible because they are all pure evil monsters of destruction, they don't make any sense. This talk about "preserving natural order" is completely thrown out of the window once you realize that the Shadow Dragons relish in destruction and want to kill everyone and everything. They don't care about order, they don't care about anything.

Meanwhile, with all his talks about preserving the beauty of the Cosmos, Zamasu at least tried to preserve the forests of the Earth and even commented at several points of how saddened he was by the physical ruination of the planet, and mentioned that he wanted to create a new paradise. To make more sense, the Shadow Dragons should have been written more like Zamasu. If they want to punish mortals for their destructive acts with the Dragon Balls, they shouldn't relish destruction themselves.

So the idea of the GT Shadow Dragons, these pure evil beings of destruction, doesn't make sense. Omega Shenron even calls himself a "god of destruction" and this doesn't make sense. If the Shadow Dragons are supposed to preserve some kind of natural order, then it doesn't make sense that they want to destroy the universe.

[Grimlock]

It's not a low blow. I'm sure I've read him say he got into Dragon Ball because of the Zamasu arc.

And you'd be correct.

[Koitsukai]

The dragons never said they were after preserving anything, they are evil entities, they are the consequences of messing with the natural order way too much.
They aren't the keepers of anything, they are the offspring of, like Abed said, "too-much-of-a-good-thing".

[SupremeKai25]

The dragons never said they were after preserving anything, they are evil entities, they are the consequences of messing with the natural order way too much.
They aren't the keepers of anything, they are the offspring of, like Abed said, "too-much-of-a-good-thing".

You said the overuse of DBs messed with the natural order because they revived too many people, this is not the "natural order" GT had in mind and thus you are attributing to GT an argument it never brought up.

All GT states is that the "balance" of the Dragon Balls was disrupted because the negative energy wasn't allowed to be expelled over 100 years.

So the argument you made earlier about the overuse of revival wishes is never made by GT and thus it is not an idea attributable to GT. The problem was never that they revived too many people and caused some kind of issues for the otherworld, the problem was simply that they didn't let the negative energy disappear (even though they literally had no way to know about this concept since no one ever warned them about it in any way).

Furthermore, the GT writers failed to connect this idea of the negative energy with the previous lore, because at no point does Old Kai or anyone from DBZ ever hint at the negative energy of the DBs.

So this idea of the "negative energy" of the DBs is not original and comes off as more of an asspull instead of something that was established in previous lore. One throw-away line from Old Kai in DBZ that doesn't even allude to the negative energy specifically is not enough foreshadowing for the Shadow Dragons.

Besides that, you acknowledge that the Shadow Dragons are just "evil entities", there's nothing original about this idea for a main villain.

[ABED]

The dragons never said they were after preserving anything, they are evil entities, they are the consequences of messing with the natural order way too much.
They aren't the keepers of anything, they are the offspring of, like Abed said, "too-much-of-a-good-thing".

You said the overuse of DBs messed with the natural order because they revived too many people, this is not the "natural order" GT had in mind and thus you are attributing to GT an argument it never brought up.

All GT states is that the "balance" of the Dragon Balls was disrupted because the negative energy wasn't allowed to be expelled over 100 years.

So the argument you made earlier about the overuse of revival wishes is never made by GT and thus it is not an idea attributable to GT. The problem was never that they revived too many people and caused some kind of issues for the otherworld, the problem was simply that they didn't let the negative energy disappear (even though they literally had no way to know about this concept since no one ever warned them about it in any way).

Furthermore, the GT writers failed to connect this idea of the negative energy with the previous lore, because at no point does Old Kai or anyone from DBZ ever hint at the negative energy of the DBs.

So this idea of the "negative energy" of the DBs is not original and comes off as more of an asspull instead of something that was established in previous lore. One throw-away line from Old Kai in DBZ that doesn't even allude to the negative energy specifically is not enough foreshadowing for the Shadow Dragons.

Besides that, you acknowledge that the Shadow Dragons are just "evil entities", there's nothing original about this idea for a main villain.

Overuse caused the balance of the Dragon Balls to be disrupted. And they were warned about overusing them and upsetting the natural order. They didn't know what the consequences but the simple idea that there's always a cost is not something that needs to be driven in the audience's head. We get it.

In the case of the Shadow Dragon arc, the parent decided to straight-up dump the child in the middle of a war-zone as some kind of "lesson". The mortals just barely avoided getting exterminated at a universal scale by Omega Shenron, clearly none of them stood a chance against Omega and they're just lucky that Base Kid Goku had Plot armour and power levels are BS.

How do you figure?

And plot armor? I don't consider discussion of "plot armor" as legitimate criticism. Omega isn't real. He stood as much chance of winning as the writers wanted.

[SupremeKai25]

Overuse caused the balance of the Dragon Balls to be disrupted. And they were warned about overusing them and upsetting the natural order.[/

Except that not one of the Gods ever had the brilliant idea of warning the heroes about negative energy, Shadow Dragons, or really, anything that went in detail and didn't remain generic cryptic nonsense.

Believe it or not, when you warn someone about not doing something, you should also give the specifics. No one will take your warnings seriously if you don't elaborate at all.

Never mind that Old Kai agreed to use the DBs 10 seconds later anyway because Goku blackmailed him with pictures of Bulma, so the story clearly didn't care about this plot point. As such, the idea of the Shadow Dragons doesn't fit the tone of Toriyama's story. Toriyama thought that Old Kai's warning was irrelevant and should be followed up by a gag scene with Bulma and then forgotten, even by Old Kai himself (who agreed to use the DBs anyway for a stupid gag reason).

They didn't know what the consequences

Yet the Gods knew them very well, and they never told the heroes. Not even a quick "hey, btw, if you misuse them, you'll create a monster who'll destroy the universe":

This isn't the usual case of the Gods being incompetent, because it takes nothing to say one line about those consequences. In Super, the Gods constantly warn Goku and the others not to mess certain things up. It's just a case of the GT writers failing to insert their idea in a way that feels organic and logical with what came before.

but the simple idea that there's always a cost

Was already made clear in the Saiyan arc, when Vegeta and his goons were lured to Earth by the Dragon Balls. This already made it clear to the audience that there's a cost of having Dragon Balls; their power attracts alien invaders.

So GT idea still isn't original, it was already done in the previous series.

And the GT spin on this idea is terrible. Reducing the Dragon Balls to some stupid positive and negative charge nonsense as if they were a battery is terrible and completely removes their magic and doesn't fit Dragon Ball.

In addition to this, GT also wasn't unique when it wrote an arc where the protagonist had to fix their problems without DBs, because DBZ already did that with the Future Trunks storyline, where Future Trunks had to fix his Android problem without DBs.

[goku the krump dancer]

The warning for the consequences of time travel is treated no differently than the warning for the over use of the Dragon Balls. They're both mentioned rather off handedly, while the remarks about the dragon balls was brought back for a major story line, the "abuse" of time travel has not and I dont think ever will since we've had almost half a dozen story arcs happen since the Zamasu arc and the games have turned it into a legit job with the Time Patrollers.

Even if you don't want to count GT's use of the plot point of over use of the DBs because its no-longer part of the main continuity then we've yet to see the repercussions of either of those things since the Dragons Balls have only been further abused since the Boo arc. If Time travelling was that big of a deal, I think Zeno would've blown a gasket from seeing a future version of himself but thats not what happened. Zamasu was only taunting Trunks about his "sin" of time traveling, it held no real weight and doesnt within the context of the story because time traveling doesn't affect all timelines just the one where things are being changed so it all remains pretty self contained.

[SupremeKai25]

The warning for the consequences of time travel is treated no differently than the warning for the over use of the Dragon Balls. They're both mentioned rather off handedly, while the remarks about the dragon balls was brought back for a major story line, the "abuse" of time travel has not and I dont think ever will since we've had almost half a dozen story arcs happen since the Zamasu arc and the games have turned it into a legit job with the Time Patrollers.

Even if you don't want to count GT's use of the plot point of over use of the DBs because its no-longer part of the main continuity then we've yet to see the repercussions of either of those things since the Dragons Balls have only been further abused since the Boo arc. If Time travelling was that big of a deal, I think Zeno would've blown a gasket from seeing a future version of himself but thats not what happened. Zamasu was only taunting Trunks about his "sin" of time traveling, it held no real weight and doesnt within the context of the story because time traveling doesn't affect all timelines just the one where things are being changed so it all remains pretty self contained.

The only one who warned about the overuse of DBs was Old Kai in one throw-away line in DBZ, which was followed by a gag scene in which Old Kai changed his mind. This set-up is insufficient.

Meanwhile, multiple characters in Super echo Zamasu's words about time travel, it wasn't just Zamasu coping with his beliefs. Gowasu himself told Zamasu that whoever tampered with time (Cell and Trunks) was foolish, Beerus threatened to destroy the Earth once he learned Trunks was a time-traveller, Beerus even warns Goku not to mention anything about time travel to Zeno or he could make him angry. Zeno didn't erase the Cosmos when he saw his Future counterpart simply because he was too happy that he finally got a friend to play with.

And Yes, altering the past created entirely new timelines, this is explained clearly and concisely by both Gowasu and Whis. Cell, Trunks, and Beerus all caused new multiverses to be spawned by the altering of history and this is all explained in the actual story.

The Future Trunks saga was the saga about the consequences of abusing time travel... as Zamasu clearly explains supported by flashbacks from DBZ, if Trunks never altered the past, Goku Black wouldn't exist, because Goku would be dead and wouldn't be able to challenge Zamasu. As Zamasu puts it, it was Trunks' abuse of time travel which allowed the existence of an alliance of 2 Zamasu, as a result of the time split.

The abuse of time travel is treated as a serious plot point by Toriyama in Super, with several characters, including the main villain, commenting on it and highlighting its gravity.

Meanwhile, The abuse of DBs is treated indifferently by Toriyama, it is one throw-away line hand-waved away by a gag scene.

GT writers tried to follow-up on that line of Old Kai with the "negative energy" reveal, but it is a bad idea. The Dragon Balls having negative and positive charges like they were batteries is not an intriguing idea, 6/7 of the Shadow Dragons being generic pure evil monsters with no depth is a terrible idea. Lastly, GT writers then had the cast blame Bulma for all the chaos due to her making the DB radar, which is just very poor in taste and doesn't really make sense, considering how the Gods and Popo could have warned her at any point of the negative energy stuff and yet they never did.

Even if you don't want to count GT's use of the plot point of over use of the DBs because its no-longer part of the main continuity then we've yet to see the repercussions of either of those things since the Dragons Balls have only been further abused since the Boo arc

Super reveals that the Old Kai was completely wrong about Potara fusion, so there's no evidence to back his baseless claim about the Dragon Balls. Super shows us that the Old Kai was not omniscient.

So, ignoring GT, there's no reason to believe Old Kai's words at all.

Toriyama doesn't seem interested in making his own story involving the Shadow Dragons.

[Zephyr]

The Future Trunks saga was the saga about the consequences of abusing time travel... as Zamasu clearly explains supported by flashbacks from DBZ, if Trunks never altered the past, Goku Black wouldn't exist, because Goku would be dead and wouldn't be able to challenge Zamasu. As Zamasu puts it, it was Trunks' abuse of time travel which allowed the existence of an alliance of 2 Zamasu, as a result of the time split.

The Cell arc, which introduced time travel, also cashes in on the Negative Consequences™ of it. By time traveling, Trunks found a way to destroy #17 and #18, and gave the future version of Cell a free ticket back to the past where they were still alive. Which all happens before the arc even begins. Trunks' "abuse" of time travel allowed Cell to become Perfect.

So if we want to keep disingenuously talking about Super and "originality" in a thread about GT's ideas, Super was "less original" in trying to cash in on something that Toriyama already did in the original run, where GT was "more original" in trying to cash in on something that wasn't. This doesn't actually matter outside of a weird arbitrary score tally, in part because you can spin any of this stuff in either direction if you're committed enough to the bit. But it's food for thought either way, I guess.

[SupremeKai25]

The Future Trunks saga was the saga about the consequences of abusing time travel... as Zamasu clearly explains supported by flashbacks from DBZ, if Trunks never altered the past, Goku Black wouldn't exist, because Goku would be dead and wouldn't be able to challenge Zamasu. As Zamasu puts it, it was Trunks' abuse of time travel which allowed the existence of an alliance of 2 Zamasu, as a result of the time split.

The Cell arc, which introduced time travel, also cashes in on the Negative Consequences™ of it. By time traveling, Trunks found a way to destroy #17 and #18, and gave the future version of Cell a free ticket back to the past where they were still alive. Which all happens before the arc even begins. Trunks' "abuse" of time travel allowed Cell to become Perfect.

So if we want to keep disingenuously talking about Super and "originality" in a thread about GT's ideas, Super was "less original" in trying to cash in on something that Toriyama already did in the original run, where GT was "more original" in trying to cash in on something that wasn't. This doesn't actually matter outside of a weird arbitrary score tally, in part because you can spin any of this stuff in either direction if you're committed enough to the bit. But it's food for thought either way, I guess.

The negative consequences of the Dragon Balls was a plot point that was already explored in the original series... the Saiyans came to Earth because they wanted the Dragon Balls. The Dragon Balls were always dangerous because they attracted alien invaders. Their mere presence was a danger for the earthlings. If the Dragon Balls didn't exist, Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz would not have attacked the Earth because they would not seek the DBs. The same argument can easily be made for the Namek saga, which happened because the DBs attracted Frieza and his alien army to Namek.

So actually we have already seen Toriyama toy with this idea that the DBs can have negative consequences, just by existing.

[goku the krump dancer]

The warning for the consequences of time travel is treated no differently than the warning for the over use of the Dragon Balls. They're both mentioned rather off handedly, while the remarks about the dragon balls was brought back for a major story line, the "abuse" of time travel has not and I dont think ever will since we've had almost half a dozen story arcs happen since the Zamasu arc and the games have turned it into a legit job with the Time Patrollers.

Even if you don't want to count GT's use of the plot point of over use of the DBs because its no-longer part of the main continuity then we've yet to see the repercussions of either of those things since the Dragons Balls have only been further abused since the Boo arc. If Time travelling was that big of a deal, I think Zeno would've blown a gasket from seeing a future version of himself but thats not what happened. Zamasu was only taunting Trunks about his "sin" of time traveling, it held no real weight and doesnt within the context of the story because time traveling doesn't affect all timelines just the one where things are being changed so it all remains pretty self contained.

The only one who warned about the overuse of DBs was Old Kai in one throw-away line in DBZ, which was followed by a gag scene in which Old Kai changed his mind. This set-up is insufficient.

Meanwhile, multiple characters in Super echo Zamasu's words about time travel, it wasn't just Zamasu coping with his beliefs. Gowasu himself told Zamasu that whoever tampered with time (Cell and Trunks) was foolish, Beerus threatened to destroy the Earth once he learned Trunks was a time-traveller, Beerus even warns Goku not to mention anything about time travel to Zeno or he could make him angry. Zeno didn't erase the Cosmos when he saw his Future counterpart simply because he was too happy that he finally got a friend to play with.

1. Beerus has been proven to be full of hot air whenever he threatens to destroy the Earth or anyone who has a positive relationship with Goku. Heck him erasing Zamasu, was the only time he kept his word about anything thus far. So how is he any more credible than Old Kai?

2. If time traveling was really that big of a deal dont you think the actual ruler of the Multiverse would treat seeing a time displaced version of himself like a bigger deal? He has two eternal body guards that could serve as playmates.

3. Zamasu's existence as Goku Black is a paradox all on its own because Goku would have no idea that Zamasu even existed had he not traded blows with Black to begin with, which led to his trip to universe 10's Kaioshin world, which led to their sparring match sparking Zamasu's jealousy, which eventually led to him stealing Goku's body becoming "Goku Black". Nothing Trunks or Cell did in the Android arc caused this. If anything Zamasu himself is a bigger perpetrator of time travel abuse than Trunks could ever hope to be and yet despite that there has been no grand multiversal collapse just like the overuse of not only Earth's DB's but the Super Dragon Balls and even the Ceralian Dragon Balls have led to any major disaster excluding GT of course.

5. The creation of other timelines has not been shown to make the jobs of the Gods harder because each timeline has their own version of said Gods to continue to do what they're supposed to. So again I ask, how does one out way the other?

[ABED]

Overuse caused the balance of the Dragon Balls to be disrupted. And they were warned about overusing them and upsetting the natural order.[/

Except that not one of the Gods ever had the brilliant idea of warning the heroes about negative energy, Shadow Dragons, or really, anything that went in detail and didn't remain generic cryptic nonsense.

Believe it or not, when you warn someone about not doing something, you should also give the specifics. No one will take your warnings seriously if you don't elaborate at all.

Never mind that Old Kai agreed to use the DBs 10 seconds later anyway because Goku blackmailed him with pictures of Bulma, so the story clearly didn't care about this plot point. As such, the idea of the Shadow Dragons doesn't fit the tone of Toriyama's story. Toriyama thought that Old Kai's warning was irrelevant and should be followed up by a gag scene with Bulma and then forgotten, even by Old Kai himself (who agreed to use the DBs anyway for a stupid gag reason).

They didn't know what the consequences

Yet the Gods knew them very well, and they never told the heroes. Not even a quick "hey, btw, if you misuse them, you'll create a monster who'll destroy the universe":

This isn't the usual case of the Gods being incompetent, because it takes nothing to say one line about those consequences. In Super, the Gods constantly warn Goku and the others not to mess certain things up. It's just a case of the GT writers failing to insert their idea in a way that feels organic and logical with what came before.

but the simple idea that there's always a cost

Was already made clear in the Saiyan arc, when Vegeta and his goons were lured to Earth by the Dragon Balls. This already made it clear to the audience that there's a cost of having Dragon Balls; their power attracts alien invaders.

So GT idea still isn't original, it was already done in the previous series.

And the GT spin on this idea is terrible. Reducing the Dragon Balls to some stupid positive and negative charge nonsense as if they were a battery is terrible and completely removes their magic and doesn't fit Dragon Ball.

In addition to this, GT also wasn't unique when it wrote an arc where the protagonist had to fix their problems without DBs, because DBZ already did that with the Future Trunks storyline, where Future Trunks had to fix his Android problem without DBs.

Wow, it's almost like the writers came up with the idea later on. Welcome to the world of long running serialized storytelling. Not everything will line up super neatly and there are often contradictions.

The positive and negative energy build up doesn't take away their mystical qualities. It simply puts a limit on them. That's good storytelling.

That's all I have to say to you on this subject because I'm tired of your whole Zamasu shtick.

[SupremeKai25]

1. Beerus has been proven to be full of hot air whenever he threatens to destroy the Earth or anyone who has a positive relationship with Goku. Heck him erasing Zamasu, was the only time he kept his word about anything thus far. So how is he any more credible than Old Kai?

Beerus will never destroy the Earth because he wants to have a true fight with the Super Saiyan God of prophecy, who is Goku. The main progression of Super follows Goku's quest to finally be a worthy rival for Beerus... ofc Beerus will never destroy Goku or the Earth. Furthermore, Beerus knows that he can't destroy Goku and the Earth, because they are the strongest mortals in his universe. This doesn't mean that his warnings about time travel were unfounded especially when several other Gods echo them.

2. If time traveling was really that big of a deal dont you think the actual ruler of the Multiverse would treat seeing a time displaced version of himself like a bigger deal? He has two eternal body guards that could serve as playmates.

Zeno is a child who never had friends, so he cared more about having a friend. The bodyguards can't be his play mates because Zeno doesn't like them, he once threatened to destroy them for getting in Goku's way. They are too scared of Zeno to play with him and Zeno would rather send them to vacation than play with them (as shown in Moro arc ending).

Regardless of this, Beerus noted how mentioning time travel to Zeno could make him furious enough to want to destroy the multiverse. As such, the writers of Super reiterate how time travel is a truly serious act.

Nothing Trunks or Cell did in the Android arc caused this.

In the original timeline, Goku went to U10 for some other reason, but he still went there.

As the writers through Zamasu tell us, had Trunks let Goku die like history dictated, Goku would not have been able to challenge Zamasu in the original timeline unaltered by Beerus (which is Goku Black's timeline).

there has been no grand multiversal collapse

An entire multiverse was literally wiped out as a result of the Two Zamasu's actions, and now the Present timeline has two "Kings of All".

just like the overuse of not only Earth's DB's but the Super Dragon Balls and even the Ceralian Dragon Balls have led to any major disaster excluding GT of course.

The misuse of the Super DBs led to Fused Zamasu becoming a twisted and malformed being due to having wished both mortality (Goku's body) and immortality, resulting in an unnatural mix that ruined the fusion.

The misuse of the Cerelian DBs led to Granolah and Gas sacrificing their lifespan for power, with Gas even rotting and turning into a skeleton when he was very young before making the wish.

DBS also deals with the misuse of DBs, but the consequences of the misuse affects the villains instead of the heroes. Since it's the villains who are misusing the DBs for selfish and cruel reasons (like immortality/stealing someone's body and ultimate strength to kill people).

DBZ also deals with the misuse of the DBs, this time the consequences are felt by the heroes. In DBZ, Vegeta and Frieza wanted to use the DBs for immortality, as a result they invaded two planets and their inhabitants suffered and were killed. The DBs have always attracted dangerous alien invaders, their presence makes Earth an intriguing target for alien threats and the protagonists had to live with this danger posed by the DBs.

Shadow Dragons arc is not original conceptually, this idea of the consequences of the misuse was already played with in DBZ. There are more original storylines that could have been created by the GT writers instead.

5. The creation of other timelines has not been shown to make the jobs of the Gods harder because each timeline has their own version of said Gods to continue to do what they're supposed to. So again I ask, how does one out way the other?

If that's the case, then the misuse of DBs has also not shown to make the jobs of the Gods harder... in fact, "misusing" the DBs at the end of Buu arc literally saved the entire universe from Kid Buu, which naturally made the U7 Gods' job much easier.

]Wow, it's almost like the writers came up with the idea later on. Welcome to the world of long running serialized storytelling. Not everything will line up super neatly and there are often contradictions.

If an idea creates contradictions and doesn't line up well with what came before, why is that idea good or praise-worthy?

The positive and negative energy build up doesn't take away their mystical qualities. It simply puts a limit on them. That's good storytelling.

That's redundant and unneeded storytelling. The DBs already had limits placed on them, such as the fact that they are scattered across the world once they are used (and Bulma's radar doesn't remove this limit) and that the wishes made cannot exceed Shenron's power.

[novashibe]

- The black star DB arc was a horrible idea, forcing an early DB convention while completely disregarding the power and abilities that the protagonists wielded at that time, which could only have ended up a mess impossible to suspend disbelief for

I think it's important to remember that people saying 'GT has good ideas' aren't necessarily saying 'GT had the best ideas'. Here I think it's just the idea of turning Goku back into a kid physically isn't a bad idea, really - it makes him fit more with the rest of this show's cast and does go some way to raising the stakes again or at the very least, giving that feeling.

- The Baby arc was probably the sole good premise of the series, I'll give it that - flaws in execution notwithstanding

Yeah, I mean, we agree here. Having an enemy of the Saiyans come back to take revenge upon the two remaining ones and their families - and kind of ultimately becoming one after a fashion - is ripe for drama.

- Piccolo's death was a bad idea, as the writers forgot DBs can be destroyed without requiring their creator to die. They tried salvaging that later with Piccolo's hell scenes, but even that was abysmal

I don't really feel strongly about this either way. It never struck me as a thing people were talking about when saying GT had good ideas.

- The Super 17 arc was not only the literal humanly apogee of derivative (more androids), it also took poorly understood, filler physics of the afterlife and made them the very foundation of the story. Even perfection in execution couldn't have salvaged this.

Again, I can completely agree with you here. When I praise GT for the things it did and things it wanted to do, this is nowhere near either list. Just abysmal writing.

- The Shadow Dragons arc - words

Truncated the quote to keep this post becoming too long. I think you're focusing too much on battle powers and the level these dragons would be at. The more recent attempts at decoupling the series with it's fans fixation on these numbers is not for no reason and it's interpretations like this in my opinion that Toriyama et al are trying to sidestep in doing so. I would argue that they are impeding on your potential enjoyment of the story as you're looking for justification as to why these new creatures are able to pose a threat to the heroes when really, the only answer is... Because if they didn't there would be no story. You just have to accept in your mind that "the Dragon Balls are magic and this is totally possible" and of course, everyone's mileage will vary on their ability to do that comfortably but do remember it's a silly series about a silly monkey boy and his silly desire to keep growing.

- The ending - again, like with Piccolo's death. It works on an emotional level, but accomplishes it by completely disregarding the hitherto established rules of the universe, of how the DBs work, and of who Shenron is. No foreshadowing, no hints or comments from Dende (the creator of the dragon, who has absolute power over it). Shenron is a wish-granting dragon whose job is to shut up and grant wishes, not some transcendent, metaphysical being with the agency to moralize users about overusing the DBs and take action to prevent it of his own accord.

I don't think it 'disregards' any rules, much less 'established' ones. Shenron is clearly a sentient creature and despite his willingness to 'just do his job' 99% of the time, who's to say he hasn't developed some sort of sense of responsibility and/or duty over the years? Why does absolutely every possibility need to be explored and explicitly addressed ahead of time? You would have a story of very few surprises were that the case.

None of this is to disparage you or your views on the series, by the way and I apologize in advance if any of it comes across that way. Just my own personal takes in response to them, no offense or judgements on who's right or wrong either way. What I mean when I say GT had good ideas and not necessarily great execution is that I do think as a show with dramatic tension, interesting arcs and new concepts, GT works often far better than Super does. Outside of the Black/Future arc, Super really doesn't have a lot going for it to me.

[goku the krump dancer]

SNIP

You keep trying to make things overlap to prove your point but its not making any sense.

Zamasu's actions arent a result of Time Travel, his actions were preempted by his own beliefs and desires. Zeno erased the future Timeline because of Zamasu, he didnt even know that Goku and co traveled up from the past he just saw the after math of Zamasu's rampage. Sure he used time travel for selfish reasons but that wasnt what got him ultimately killed for good.

Vegeta and Freeza invading Earth and Namek respectively were not a by product of misusing the Dragon Balls because neither of them got the wishes they wanted, it was the desire for the Dragon Balls not the use of them.

Plus the issue isnt that the Dragon Balls are used for positive or negative wishes, the problem at least with how its presented in GT is that they need at least a full century to deplete the negative energy that's created within them regardless of what kind of wish is made.

[Dr. Casey]

I like the Shadow Dragon arc well enough, but I fully agree with SupremeKai that appeal to nature is an absolute dogshit argument. "Going against nature is wrong! I can't actually cite any objective problems that it causes, and going against nature doesn't do much of anything besides alleviate unnecessary suffering, but it's wrong because... it just IS okay?!" I guess we never should have tried to create medicines or surgeries or any other therapeutic technique because going by nature your immune system is the only form of defense you're supposed to have.

[ABED]

I like the Shadow Dragon arc well enough, but I fully agree with SupremeKai that appeal to nature is an absolute dogshit argument. "Going against nature is wrong! I can't actually cite any objective problems that it causes, and going against nature doesn't do much of anything besides alleviate unnecessary suffering, but it's wrong because... it just IS okay?!" I guess we never should have tried to create medicines or surgeries or any other therapeutic technique because going by nature your immune system is the only form of defense you're supposed to have.

Except medicine is science, and thus part of the natural order. Magic is not. By its nature it is non-causal. Putting a cost to it and limits is a good thing. The limits were either vague and arbitrary (e.g. couldn't kill the Saiyans but could bring someone back from the dead) or the limits had been removed over time. The time it takes to retrieve the DBs also greatly declined.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

[ABED]

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Which operates off of cause and effect. There's always limits and a cost.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Ok that was a bad idea sorry.