Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

But wasn't Goku just recovering his strength against Caulifa and Kale instead of growing stronger?

Goku was lumped with Caulifa when Caulifa was stated to be growing stronger. The same should logically apply to Goku. Otherwise, you kind of dug yourself a hole if you're trying to reconcile Goku's first performance against Kale with his rematch against her.

That was under the context of Caulifa already being back to full strength at the start of the fight against Goku. Goku on the other hand was still tapped out and said he'd work up to it slowly. This is shown and repeatedly said during the fight until it's finally stated by Whis that Goku broke his limits after achieving UI Sign again.

[Goku9001]

But wasn't Goku just recovering his strength against Caulifa and Kale instead of growing stronger?

Goku was lumped with Caulifa when Caulifa was stated to be growing stronger. The same should logically apply to Goku. Otherwise, you kind of dug yourself a hole if you're trying to reconcile Goku's first performance against Kale with his rematch against her.

That was under the context of Caulifa already being back to full strength at the start of the fight against Goku. Goku on the other hand was still tapped out and said he'd work up to it slowly. This is shown and repeatedly said during the fight until it's finally stated by Whis that Goku broke his limits after achieving UI Sign again.

Those statements were made under the context of Goku and Caulifa's constant growth due to their own Saiyan physiology. Goku regaining his strength has nothing to do with his power clashing with Caulifa.

[Miracles]

Goku was lumped with Caulifa when Caulifa was stated to be growing stronger. The same should logically apply to Goku. Otherwise, you kind of dug yourself a hole if you're trying to reconcile Goku's first performance against Kale with his rematch against her.

That was under the context of Caulifa already being back to full strength at the start of the fight against Goku. Goku on the other hand was still tapped out and said he'd work up to it slowly. This is shown and repeatedly said during the fight until it's finally stated by Whis that Goku broke his limits after achieving UI Sign again.

Those statements were made under the context of Goku and Caulifa's constant growth due to their own Saiyan physiology. Goku regaining his strength has nothing to do with his power clashing with Caulifa.

For Caulifa only. She was the one who said her power was growing the harder the fight.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Even if somehow Kale’s final form was stronger than Berserker and was losing to SSG

I just noticed this. What do you mean by that? Tenshinhan straight up says Kale got stronger by controlling her Berserker form.

[Thani]

Ok, so, I could be way off base here, but... Isn't it the same deal with Gohan during his fight against "Super" Perfect Cell? His body was tired and hurt, he could not easily access his full power. But Goku made a point to him that such limitation was merely superficial - if push comes to shove, he could bring out that overwhelming power back in order to finish Cell. And he did exactly that in the end.

Goku was tired after being trounced by Jiren, and was barely scraping by with whatever stamina he had left. That does not translate, however, to his ki being "weaker". Instead, the ki always drops naturally whenever the body becomes unable to handle it properly, usually by damage. However, whenever the fighters get revigorated, his ki returns, because his body can generate it properly and the fighters can focus it normally again.

Goku vs Caulifla always felt like, at first Goku was only able to fight in base thanks to his exhaustion, so he had to compensate with trickery and plain old fighting skills. After recovering more energy, he could go SS2, and now finally matched Caulifla in raw power.

Than Kale joined in and he was forced to go SS3 for a brief moment, which he could not maintain thanks to not being fit to handle the strain of the form. Afterwards, Kale managed to control her Berserker power, gaining more power than ever, which prompted Goku to unleash SSG. Then Kefla happened, and he went Blue.

I think it's easy to see him as always underperforming because of his lack of stamina, but looking back, being tired or hurt always only made it difficult to keep the full power state for longer, because of the strain. If Goku's body was unable to handle the power, he wouldn't be powering up, but rather powering down, which didn't happen. When he fought Kale, Caulifla and then Kefla, he was using 100% of the power he had access at that moment. It seemed he was getting stronger because, in actuality, the situation was reversed - it was Caulifla and Kale who were getting stronger, prompting Goku to use more and more of his power to match them.

This culminated with Kefla who, at first, was "only" capable of matching Goku's SSB for a time. Eventually, Goku was forced to use Kaioken - he wasn't ready for that yet, hence Beerus' warning iirc, but he had no choice, Kefla's ki was growing rapidly. Then Kefla surpassed even that, landed a hit that knocked Goku out that he couldn't react to, and then was compared by Whis to the Spirit Bomb that Goku tried to use on Jiren. Then, in that desperate moment, Goku broke his limits and reached UI Sign again.

So I basically said all that in order to give my humble opinion that Goku wasn't growing stronger per se during the fight, he was regaining his strength that he lost due to the trashing he took from Jiren. Caulifla, Kale and Kefla, on the other hand, were getting stronger during the fight, which indeed would prompt some growth on Goku's part, but shouldn't be something wild like a 20x increase to match his previous 20xKK. Goku matching a stronger Kale in God was strange, but then again, it's fair to say that God's full power was greater than whatever he used against her in Blue - after all, Goku did perform better against Jiren than Kale did.

[Hugo Boss]

With all the talk about saving stamina, I don’t see why Goku would go from SSJ2 (which is below 1% of his total power) to 100% of SSJB’s power. He’s saving his power for Jiren, and he does fight Jiren better than Kale does.

Technically Jiren and Kale didn’t fight, so that comparison is very difficult to justify. Jiren aimed at a moment Kale was distracted and there wasn’t much anyone can do after being caught up by Jiren’s ki blast. Not even Goku or Vegeta could react to it in Blue, unless they try their very best, Goku needed Blue Kaioken to do it and Vegeta barely managed to keep himself on the fighting stage. This also reinforces that Vegeta in Blue can do something Goku needed Blue Kaioken to accomplish before.

Besides, using Blue for a short amount of time without combining it with Kaioken makes Goku able to save stamina, so it won’t tire him out that quickly. In that context, Goku probably doesn’t think Blue is his full power anyway, and considering Kale ignored him after losing control he didn’t felt like stepping up his game on that fight. Against Jiren, he was casually switching between Blue and Blue Kaioken on several occasions.

I just noticed this. What do you mean by that? Tenshinhan straight up says Kale got stronger by controlling her Berserker form.

Usually this instance is used as counter evidence to Blue being weaker than Berserker, because Red is stronger than Berserker (by subtext) and weaker than Blue, which might confuse a lot (that’s why I said “somehow” to clear it up).There needs to be an accommodation of his Super Saiyan levels to reconcile his two conflicting performances against Kale.

[Goku9001]

That was under the context of Caulifa already being back to full strength at the start of the fight against Goku. Goku on the other hand was still tapped out and said he'd work up to it slowly. This is shown and repeatedly said during the fight until it's finally stated by Whis that Goku broke his limits after achieving UI Sign again.

Those statements were made under the context of Goku and Caulifa's constant growth due to their own Saiyan physiology. Goku regaining his strength has nothing to do with his power clashing with Caulifa.

For Caulifa only. She was the one who said her power was growing the harder the fight.

Thani is right. I believe the guidebooks establish that stamina and power are two different things. There isn't a 1:1 relationship between the two. Just because Goku was low on stamina doesn't mean he was low on power. In Super Hero, Gamma 1 explicitly states that he can maintain his full power even with a significant drop in stamina. That implies that for everyone, there's a breakpoint where full power can no longer be maintained.

I'll have to return to the anime at some point. There are multiple statements that suggest that Goku's ki was growing alongside Caulifa's/Kefla's.

[Miracles]

The narration in that episode definitely has energy, stamina and strength the same.

[Goku9001]

The narration in that episode definitely has energy, stamina and strength the same.

Not necessarily. Even when Goku fights on par with Kefla, the narrative acknowledges that Goku's stamina was far lower than Kefla's. Stamina and strength are treated as two separate things.

[Miracles]

The narration in that episode definitely has energy, stamina and strength the same.

Not necessarily. Even when Goku fights on par with Kefla, the narrative acknowledges that Goku's stamina was far lower than Kefla's. Stamina and strength are treated as two separate things.

Yes because Goku still wasn't at full power. It still was enough to put up a fight.

[Goku9001]

The narration in that episode definitely has energy, stamina and strength the same.

Not necessarily. Even when Goku fights on par with Kefla, the narrative acknowledges that Goku's stamina was far lower than Kefla's. Stamina and strength are treated as two separate things.

Yes because Goku still wasn't at full power.

It wouldn't matter. If stamina correlated to power, there's no conceivable way Goku would have matched Kefla in power. Aside from that, the only thing that is emphasized is Goku lacking stamina, not power. His lack of stamina was the reason why he lost. Not because he couldn't put out his full power. At that point, he is using Kaioken x20 Blue. In that form, it should be expected that he would be at full power.

With this same logic, you could argue that Goku was not at full power against Jiren but it should be patently obvious that he was.

[Miracles]

Not necessarily. Even when Goku fights on par with Kefla, the narrative acknowledges that Goku's stamina was far lower than Kefla's. Stamina and strength are treated as two separate things.

Yes because Goku still wasn't at full power.

It wouldn't matter. If stamina correlated to power, there's no conceivable way Goku would have matched Kefla in power. Aside from that, the only thing that is emphasized is Goku lacking stamina, not power. His lack of stamina was the reason why he lost. Not because he couldn't put out his full power. At that point, he is using Kaioken x20 Blue. In that form, it should be expected that he would be at full power.

With this same logic, you could argue that Goku was not at full power against Jiren but it should be patently obvious that he was.

Before the fight between Caulifa and Goku, Champa said Goku would normally defeat her easily but he is weakened from facing Jiren.

Goku said he didn't have enough strength to go three.

Kaioshin said fending off two SSJ's is too much for Goku without all his power.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The post-UI Sign fights in the anime with Goku always came across as him acclimating to fighting after having his reserves depleted and slowly accessing his normal levels of power again.

[ankokudaishogun]

Low stamina mean SHORTER ACCESS to one's full power.

And Goku's stamina after Jiren was really low, but he was recovering very fast.

So fast, he could actually keep recovering stamina even while fighting at lower transformations. But not using SS3 because it's a faulty form.

[QuakingStar]

SS3 burns through ones energy and stamina so of course he couldn't use it that time longer than a few seconds. He had already mastered SS so that he could use it without stamina and energy drain, and I am assuming he's had plenty of time to master SS2 as well so though it would still drain stamina and ki it wouldn't affect him nearly as much as it would have otherwise.

[ZombieVito]

So I rewatched the SSG Goku vs Kale fight and it seems very even? Goku only hits her once and she gets no damage at all. She is definitely in the SSG tier along with him.

The Kale from EP 100 can also be SSG tier and Goku opting to use SSB would make sense since he wants to save stamina for his fight with Jiren and fighting her with SSG would require more stamina.

[Goku9001]

Yes because Goku still wasn't at full power.

It wouldn't matter. If stamina correlated to power, there's no conceivable way Goku would have matched Kefla in power. Aside from that, the only thing that is emphasized is Goku lacking stamina, not power. His lack of stamina was the reason why he lost. Not because he couldn't put out his full power. At that point, he is using Kaioken x20 Blue. In that form, it should be expected that he would be at full power.

With this same logic, you could argue that Goku was not at full power against Jiren but it should be patently obvious that he was.

Before the fight between Caulifa and Goku, Champa said Goku would normally defeat her easily but he is weakened from facing Jiren.

Goku said he didn't have enough strength to go three.

Kaioshin said fending off two SSJ's is too much for Goku without all his power.

He didn't have enough energy to access his stronger transformations but that doesn't mean the highest level he could enter at that point was not at full power. Goku's strength gains are literally lumped with Caulifa's and Kefla's. What is often forgotten is that Caulifa was also worn down by the time she fought Goku but had enough stamina to maintain full power.

Even with Goku's reduced stamina, he was evidently at full power when he was using Kaioken x20 Blue. Why would this not extend to his other forms? I don't really understand why you are arguing for inconsistent writing when the answer is pretty obvious. There've already been multiple times in which Goku's stamina was depleted but he could access his full power. His limit-breaking Kamehameha against Merged Zamasu was not enough to deplete Goku's full power immediately. Goku's battle against Caulifa and Kefla was nowhere near as strenuous.

[Goku9001]

Here's a few statements that lend itself to Goku growing stronger overall.

Episode: 113
Time: 13:40-13:43
Context: Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Caulifa power-up.
Kuririn: "Just how far are they going to go?"

Episode: 113
Time: 16:52-17:10
Context: Kale joins the fight and battles Goku.
Kaioshin: "Goku san is getting pushed back! I knew taking on two Super Saiyans was an absurd idea!"
Kuririn: "But that's how Goku does things. He always pushes himself to the edge to further himself. That's who Goku is."

Goku's Saiyan instincts were awakened during his battle with Caulifa. He was enjoying the thrill of the fight and wanted to take it further by having Kale join in. Kuririn comments on this by saying this is something always Goku does. He pushes himself to grow stronger as he always does. This is shown across the entire series.

Episode: 113
Time: 19:06-19:40
Context: Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 3.
Goku: "This is thanks to you. Fightin' you, I feel unbelievable power boilin' up from inside."
Caulifa: "Wh-What amazing power! This is... Super Saiyan 3?!"
*Reverts back to Super Saiyan 2, startling Kale and Caulifa*
Goku: "I got carried away and went to 3, but I haven't recovered the stamina to keep this form."

Power and Stamina are referred to as two different things in this context. Goku can't be referring to his available energy reserves because it hasn't been completely recovered. When he claims he feels unbelievable power, it's based off of what Kuririn says. Goku wanted to push himself further to the edge and in the end, Goku got what he wanted.

Episode: 114
Time: 6:39-6:44
Context: Goku is trembling in response to Kale controlling her power.
Goku: "I can't stop shakin'. That must be her Saiyan instinct."

Likely a minor mistranslation. He was likely referring to his own Saiyan instincts. Goku has a tendency to push himself so he gets excited when there's someone even stronger than him. Fighting Caulifa and the stronger Kale sparked those instincts so-to-speak.

Episode: 115
Time: 10:38-10:44
Context: Goku finally goes Blue against Kefla.
Muten Roshi: "Super Saiyan Blue?!"
Tenshinhan: "Has Goku's stamina completely recovered?"

Doesn't sound as though Blue Goku's power was lacking if the Z Senshi believed he had recovered his stamina. There is also the following statement from Kefla.

Episode: 115
Time: 10:46-11:00
Context: Kefla prepares to go Super Saiyan.
Goku: "I get the feelin' that things'll be bad if I hold back anymore."
Kefla: "Looks like you got the right idea. In that case, I'm going all-out too!"

Episode: 115
Time: 13:23-13:33
Context: Blue Goku is clashing with Super Saiyan Kefla.
Whis: "Their energy is getting even stronger."
Beerus: "Just how far are they going to go?!"

Kuririn said the exact same thing in response to SSJ2 Goku powering up.

I definitely took a look at how "energy" and "stamina" is being used during the fight and the usage is different. Stamina is only used in reference to how much energy Goku has or how long he can last. Energy was generally used to indicate how strong a fighter was. For instance, Chappa did claim that he never expected Kefla's energy as a Super Saiyan to be as high as it was. That differs from stamina which is a word used to describe Goku's battle condition.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Low stamina mean SHORTER ACCESS to one's full power.

And Goku's stamina after Jiren was really low, but he was recovering very fast.

So fast, he could actually keep recovering stamina even while fighting at lower transformations. But not using SS3 because it's a faulty form.

This. It makes no sense to say Goku was getting weaker when his feats were only getting better. By the time he fights Jiren again he seems to be very well rested. I don't remember any complaints about stamina in those final episodes, and between Kefla and this he got to rest a bit.

Even Vegeta could still manage some of his power after being stated to use all his stamina vs Toppo.

So I rewatched the SSG Goku vs Kale fight and it seems very even? Goku only hits her once and she gets no damage at all. She is definitely in the SSG tier along with him.

The Kale from EP 100 can also be SSG tier and Goku opting to use SSB would make sense since he wants to save stamina for his fight with Jiren and fighting her with SSG would require more stamina.

But Goku beats Caulifla and Kale without much trouble in the end. I think Kale is up there, but definitely behind. I also suspect Goku may not have been using full power because of the stamina talk, but that could've been about avoiding SSJB instead of 100% of SSJG.

Agreed. All this talk about Goku saving stamina just justifies him using suppressed Blue vs Kale instead of going all out. Goku likes to increasae his power gradually.

[ZombieVito]

But Goku beats Caulifla and Kale without much trouble in the end. I think Kale is up there, but definitely behind. I also suspect Goku may not have been using full power because of the stamina talk, but that could've been about avoiding SSJB instead of 100% of SSJG.

Agreed. All this talk about Goku saving stamina just justifies him using suppressed Blue vs Kale instead of going all out. Goku likes to increasae his power gradually.

That's the thing though. Goku never beats Kale, he only beats Caulifla. In the end the girls fuse because Caulifla was not able to continue not Kale.