Racism and the Dragon Ball fandom

[BlueChi]

You can't be too disappointed with how this thread turned out.
While these issues can be pretty interesting to talk about, it needs to be with people who can argue in good faith and not just turn everything into a smear match.

Not saying there aren't people here who wouldn't be able to handle these topics, but our track record isn't exactly stellar, so avoiding these topics unless you have a specific instant to point out is probably the best idea.

[Majin Buu]

I know I made what is probably the worst opening post ever, but I genuinely thought people would at least engage with the subject of the thread. I know sexism and LGBTphobia are EXTREMELY HUGE problems in the fandom but they have various threads on these subjects and I had hoped people would make much better commentary than I could ever do. Still, racism needs to be called out and I started this thread to call it out.

Racism should be called out when it happens, this is correct. That being said....

For me, knowing your posting habits makes this topic come off like yet another instance of you grasping at anything you can create a discussion thread around- with no regard for if that something is thread-worthy, has already been thoroughly discussed, etc.

I'd be more likely to take this thread seriously if it was coming from someone who doesn't have a history of frivolously creating topic threads. Not to mention that you started the thread by referencing a banned forum member (whom some here don't even recognize- I myself had to think for a bit to even remember who that guy was), which comes off like a flimsy justification for creating the thread.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I know I made what is probably the worst opening post ever, but I genuinely thought people would at least engage with the subject of the thread. I know sexism and LGBTphobia are EXTREMELY HUGE problems in the fandom but they have various threads on these subjects and I had hoped people would make much better commentary than I could ever do. Still, racism needs to be called out and I started this thread to call it out.

Racism should be called out when it happens, this is correct. That being said....

For me, knowing your posting habits makes this topic come off like yet another instance of you grasping at anything you can create a discussion thread around- with no regard for if that something is thread-worthy, has already been thoroughly discussed, etc.

I'd be more likely to take this thread seriously if it was coming from someone who doesn't have a history of frivolously creating topic threads. Not to mention that you started the thread by referencing a banned forum member (whom some here don't even recognize- I myself had to think for a bit to even remember who that guy was), which comes off like a flimsy justification for creating the thread.

It's not a justification. I just didnt want people to say "Oh yeah, where is this racism? Nothing? Thought so." and I did not want to throw shade at anyone not already banned and put them in the spotlight. And yes, I create frivolous threads, I admit it.

And this is thread worthy, I am just the worst person to make this sort of serious thread. But it was NOT "Yet another instance of you grasping at anything you can create a discussion thread around- with no regard for if that something is thread-worthy, has already been thoroughly discussed, etc." Ironically enough I made this thread to at least show you (Yes you in particular) I care about serious issues and want to adress them. But you've proven you've made your mind about me already and see its pointless to try and improve.

[Cure Dragon 255]

If you want this thread to be about "calling out racism", you can't really lead the discussion without naming any specific instances, other than some broad "racism = bad" statements which nobody here would disagree with. The wider issue of racism obviously goes far beyond the scope of the Dragon Ball fandom and is in no way unique to it, unless you believe that Dragon Ball actively instigates racism, rather than a case of there simply many fans who happen to have racist views unrelated to their liking for Dragon Ball. Considering how globally massive the franchise is, it's only natural that a proportionately high number of dickheads enjoy it.

Toriyama has said time and again that Dragon Ball isn't an intellectually deep story, it doesn't extol any moral framework (with protagonists who don't care about questions of good and evil), and it rarely takes a solid stance on real world issues. It was made to appeal to the lowest common denominator. You could possibly make an argument that because the series has so little going on beneath the surface and unwittingly promotes harmful messages at times (I'd say racism is fairly low down on the list compared to the weirder sexual attitudes the series exhibits), it may be more likely to attract people with toxic views since they can safely disconnect their views from the media they're consuming.

But my counter to that is, there are so many other big media franchises that do present solid moral frameworks and still manage to attract more wankers than Dragon Ball ever could. Star Wars is practically synonymous with toxic fandom culture, yet the story itself is a morality play created by someone with left-leaning, pro-democratic, anti-establishment views. The villains are coded as Nazis, yet many actual Nazis root for the Rebellion. People will always find an excuse to draw an arbitrary disconnect between their own views and the media they choose to consume.

Regarding Aim, he's no longer here to defend himself so it's not really fair to go in on him, but IIRC he was the kind of person who simply didn't have very nuanced/mature understanding of difficult topics, not just surrounding race but class as well. It's a classic example of left-wing ideology spiralling back to agree with the right that the poor are somehow to blame for everything. You see a similar mentality with hardcore tankies who loudly don't give a shit about intersectionality or helping other downtrodden groups because that faff just gets in the way of "the greater good".

I thank you for your EXTREMELY well put, well thought out response. I really didnt want to put anyone in the spotlight who wasnt banned already. I know its a bit unfair but if I didnt, I would be asked to provide "Proof" the racism exists and when I didnt provide any I would be ignored. But racism is present in Dragon Ball fandom, racism exists and its bad. I am NOT saying this is the worst fandom ever I love it. And I am NOT making excuses for other fandoms

[Scientist Fu]

For my personal case, I'm scared to share my thoughts on sensitive subjects like this one because my way of thinking is way too different from the crowd and I don't have enough vocabulary to explain in details why I think this way and not another way. I'm obviously against any kind of discrimination, harm, cruelty, injustice etc etc.. and I think that the main problem is "the today cruel system" but the best way to solve all these problems relies on something that I don't want to share with others. It's not about something bad, it's just not something that will convince people anyway so I just stay away. In all honesty, this world won't change unless a better system comes to life... it's really hard to educate people with all the injustice and oppression people live with.. but anyway, what I wanted to say is that I just prefer to avoid stressful and/or dangerous situations because I might hurt someone unintentionally which scares the hell out of me.

I did say things out of ignorance and misunderstanding when I was younger (when I felt very sad and useless in my life and I needed some attention) and some people bullied me for it and made fun of me... most of them didn't help me to get better and they didn't hesitate to bully me more, none showed some kind of compassion or reach out a tender hand (except one person which is still my friend to this day and I can't thank him enough for that). And that's the reason why I don't like humanity (even though I know there are good people out there) it's like I'm disgusted of myself and of others too.

But, what I usually say is that we all should (if we can) be more compassionate, we all should try to understand others, have empathy, educate ourselves, learn from others, from our mistakes, from our experiences, we all should be against evil, in short "we all should do our best to become a better person". We don't have to love everyone, but we all should respect each other and be kind to each other (in general) I know that in some cases this is not how it works. Anyone who defends good should at least share it with the others to spread this positivity all around the world, I guess that's the easiest thing people can offer with internet. We can't obtain anything by force sooo patience is the key to spread positivity (imho).

[Majin Buu]

Ironically enough I made this thread to at least show you (Yes you in particular) I care about serious issues and want to adress them. But you've proven you've made your mind about me already and see its pointless to try and improve.

....

So your response to getting called out for frivolously creating threads is to admit that you ultimately created this thread for a frivolous reason?

[Cure Dragon 255]

Ironically enough I made this thread to at least show you (Yes you in particular) I care about serious issues and want to adress them. But you've proven you've made your mind about me already and see its pointless to try and improve.

....

So your response to getting called out for frivolously creating threads is to admit that you ultimately created this thread for a frivolous reason?

Yeah. I admit it. And also apologize for it. I am dumb. I want to improve and you were right I make lots of dumb threads. What I mean with this is that I do want to improve and be better but its going to be slow since I am dumb. What I wanted to show is that I did take the criticism to heart and genuinely desire to improve.

[Scientist Fu]

Ironically enough I made this thread to at least show you (Yes you in particular) I care about serious issues and want to adress them. But you've proven you've made your mind about me already and see its pointless to try and improve.

....

So your response to getting called out for frivolously creating threads is to admit that you ultimately created this thread for a frivolous reason?

Yeah. I admit it. And also apologize for it. I am dumb. I want to improve and you were right I make lots of dumb threads. What I mean with this is that I do want to improve and be better but its going to be slow since I am dumb. What I wanted to show is that I did take the criticism to heart and genuinely desire to improve.

You don't need to be so harsh on you... your attempt to do the right thing is a big step imo. I do see you making a lot of "nonessential" threads which you could easily avoid if you try to stop yourself. I don't know if you have the need to create these threads or if it's just for the sake of doing it because you want to or for other reasons, but in all cases, you could restrain yourself a bit, at least try to restrain yourself. You could also use the "Non-thread-worthy discussions" which is the best solution here. I myself do create useless threads because I forget about the existence of the "Non-thread-worthy discussions" thread ..

But tbh this thread is interesting and important so I'm glad you created it.

[ZeroIsOurHero]

I agree with most of the posters here, there's not much of a reason for this thread to exist. The Dragon Ball community has next to no visible racism that I'm aware of. In fact, I'd honestly say the community is incredibly racially diverse: DBZ is possibly the quintessential "black anime".

As for Aim (the reason this thread was started in the first place), though, him being racist wasn't a huge shock to me. When I was on this forum in late 2021 and early 2022, I remember him being one of the most toxic members on the site. He was one of those "if you like anything other than DB and DBZ in Japanese you aren't a TRUE FAN" type people, so it wasn't shocking that he would try to gatekeep black people from the fandom too. Banning him was definitely the right call.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I agree with most of the posters here, there's not much of a reason for this thread to exist. The Dragon Ball community has next to no visible racism that I'm aware of. In fact, I'd honestly say the community is incredibly racially diverse: DBZ is possibly the quintessential "black anime".

As for Aim (the reason this thread was started in the first place), though, him being racist wasn't a huge shock to me. When I was on this forum in late 2021 and early 2022, I remember him being one of the most toxic members on the site. He was one of those "if you like anything other than DB and DBZ in Japanese you aren't a TRUE FAN" type people, so it wasn't shocking that he would try to gatekeep black people from the fandom too. Banning him was definitely the right call.

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh I get that I didnt do a very good job fostering good discussion but this is a bit too sugar coating real issues present in the fandom. Like when people called people who liked who liked the original Score "Butthurt Latinos" or some other insults like that. Yes, that's just "Dub vs Sub music wars" but it is racially charged and thus racist.

And again He is NOT the reason I started the thread. Just the one example of tangible racism in the fandom I felt comfortable bringing up.

And last I want to bring up that I DO NOT think the DB fandom is some KKK meeting but racism NOT ONLY is more than just going I hate black/Latino/Asian people, there is plenty of subtle nuances and micro agressions that seem small but REALLY add up over time.

[ZeroIsOurHero]

I agree with most of the posters here, there's not much of a reason for this thread to exist. The Dragon Ball community has next to no visible racism that I'm aware of. In fact, I'd honestly say the community is incredibly racially diverse: DBZ is possibly the quintessential "black anime".

As for Aim (the reason this thread was started in the first place), though, him being racist wasn't a huge shock to me. When I was on this forum in late 2021 and early 2022, I remember him being one of the most toxic members on the site. He was one of those "if you like anything other than DB and DBZ in Japanese you aren't a TRUE FAN" type people, so it wasn't shocking that he would try to gatekeep black people from the fandom too. Banning him was definitely the right call.

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh I get that I didnt do a very good job fostering good discussion but this is a bit too sugar coating real issues present in the fandom. Like when people called people who liked who liked the original Score "Butthurt Latinos" or some other insults like that. Yes, that's just "Dub vs Sub music wars" but it is racially charged and thus racist.

I said, "no visible racism that I'm aware of", keywords "that I'm aware of." I have never heard anyone call Kikuchi fans "butthurt Latinos", but I guess you have. I can only speak to my own personal experience.

But still, that doesn't change the fact that the Dragon Ball fandom has very little racism, especially compared to other high-profile fandoms (glances at Star Wars). Dragon Ball's fan problem is more with misogyny than anything.

[8000 Saiyan]

I feel like this thread is pretty unnecessary.

I haven't seen one person on this forum displaying racist attitudes.

[WittyUsername]

I’m sure there are some racist Dragon Ball fans on other parts of the Internet, but Kanzenshuu doesn’t really seem to have that problem.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I feel like this thread is pretty unnecessary.

I haven't seen one person on this forum displaying racist attitudes.

And this forum is the entirety of the Dragon Ball Fandom. To be fair, Kanzenshuu is awesome. So very little bullshit (Not just racism but also most otherr forms of bigotry) are almost non existant in this forum.

But I meant outside of it. Kanzenshuu is not the entirety of the fandom.

[goku the krump dancer]

Cure Dragon, I’m genuinely asking this.. Do you have friends in real life?

It’s appreciated that you’re accepting of people of all ethnicities and sexual preferences but you don’t have to go out of your way to prove it when no one’s asking you to do so. Especially here where you don’t really know any of us from a can of paint, it makes you seem hella needy and desperate.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I didnt want to prove anyone how super duper nice and accepting I am or whatever. I just saw thread after thread getting made about Homophobia and sexism and thought this would be genuine new ground to cover.

EDIT: And I thought you of all people would appreciate it, not because you are black, but because people kept calling you a sexist sexual harrasser.

[ChibiGoku]

I'm trying to catch up with the thread but I wanna talk about something regarding Cure Dragon, since he's a friend of mine.

Cure Dragon, like me, is exceptionally socially awkward and has a hard time expressing and explaining himself in the threads well enough. This is something I struggle about and I'll be blunt, I had actually, multiple and numerous times, considered making a thread about both this specific community and the overall community regarding anti-Queer issues. I had a friend who, I'd argue, was not treated seriously enough regarding their gender identity and I'd argue they, along with myself, don't feel comfortable posting here. But because I didn't know how to express or explain myself, muchless defend myself in situations like this, I opted to not post it (and because of ADHD and other neurological conditions, I also forgot about it until I saw this thread).

Honestly, Dragon Ball community I felt has gotten more and more toxic as time went on, but it's hardly the only community that has. But it definitely feels significantly less welcoming as a Queer Disabled person than it did when I was first starting out. There's a reason why I don't post here or really any community forums that don't take these issues more seriously. And yes, I don't care, I don't think the moderation team is doing enough to tackle these issues. If you can't handle this criticism, than that's not my problem. Do better. You literally banned a Trans Woman over some bullcrap that I feel was unfair and I'm not cool with that.

Getting back to the topic on hand, Cure Dragon is trying to argue in good faith. He's been subjected to a lot of bullcrap over the years, ranging from his ethnicity, his sexuality, and being on the spectrum. He's not someone who would randomly come in here and start up a thread on a whim without any reason to. Like I said, we're both exceptionally socially awkward and I saw the initial set of posts are focusing on how he presented his argument and one post came off in particular sounding like he wasn't coming in here in good faith.

I guess there is something to also be said to also understand we have different members here in the spectrum and the fact that people can't recognize this, is also an issue in itself, and none of us should assume bad faith if the presented post is awkward or is hard to read. Adding Cure Dragon's language is secondary English, this is another factor you all should keep in mind.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Getting back to the topic on hand, Cure Dragon is trying to argue in good faith. He's been subjected to a lot of bullcrap over the years, ranging from his ethnicity, his sexuality, and being on the spectrum. He's not someone who would randomly come in here and start up a thread on a whim without any reason to. Like I said, we're both exceptionally socially awkward and I saw the initial set of posts are focusing on how he presented his argument and one post came off in particular sounding like he wasn't coming in here in good faith.

I guess there is something to also be said to also understand we have different members here in the spectrum and the fact that people can't recognize this, is also an issue in itself, and none of us should assume bad faith if the presented post is awkward or is hard to read. Adding Cure Dragon's language is secondary English, this is another factor you all should keep in mind.

I'm on the spectrum too (Asperger Syndrome, also just known as Autism today) and I wholeheartedly agree. We do have struggles expressing ourselves at times, although we do always try, and have good intentions when doing so.

[ATA]

I'm trying to catch up with the thread but I wanna talk about something regarding Cure Dragon, since he's a friend of mine.

Cure Dragon, like me, is exceptionally socially awkward and has a hard time expressing and explaining himself in the threads well enough. This is something I struggle about and I'll be blunt, I had actually, multiple and numerous times, considered making a thread about both this specific community and the overall community regarding anti-Queer issues. I had a friend who, I'd argue, was not treated seriously enough regarding their gender identity and I'd argue they, along with myself, don't feel comfortable posting here. But because I didn't know how to express or explain myself, muchless defend myself in situations like this, I opted to not post it (and because of ADHD and other neurological conditions, I also forgot about it until I saw this thread).

He's been subjected to a lot of bullcrap over the years, ranging from his ethnicity, his sexuality, and being on the spectrum. He's not someone who would randomly come in here and start up a thread on a whim without any reason to. Like I said, we're both exceptionally socially awkward and I saw the initial set of posts are focusing on how he presented his argument and one post came off in particular sounding like he wasn't coming in here in good faith.

I guess there is something to also be said to also understand we have different members here in the spectrum and the fact that people can't recognize this, is also an issue in itself, and none of us should assume bad faith if the presented post is awkward or is hard to read. Adding Cure Dragon's language is secondary English, this is another factor you all should keep in mind.

As someone who Black, type and speak in Ebonics(specifically Baltimore Ebonics) instead of standard English, Autistic (High-Functioning), and have ADHD I felt every sentence of this. This post made me smile because I'm happy to see people embrace who they are and defend others for it. This is beyond the topic of DB but I've struggle with this when I was younger. People don't really understand unless they in similar or same position. Could Cure Dragon use the "Non Thread Worthy" thread more? Sure and I understand that. I'm sure he's working on not creating too many topics. But is his topics really hurting or offending anyone? Whatever you choose to particpiate in them or not is a personal choice. He loves talking about Dragon Ball just like us.

I know the topic is about Racism but I will like to expand the topic to how DB fans treat people who doesn't fit they "Standards". Whatever that's racially, sexually, gender, mentally, and personal identity. This can be Kanzenshuu or the DB fandom as a whole. Treat people how you want to be treated. As mentioned before the fanbase ECHOS want they see from the franchise's content creators. We love DB but Toriyama is very much sexist and ignorant. Funimation was very racist and homophobic in the 2000s-early 2010s. The fanbase see stuff like that and begins to follow behaviors that is deemed acceptable.

[goku the krump dancer]

I didnt want to prove anyone how super duper nice and accepting I am or whatever. I just saw thread after thread getting made about Homophobia and sexism and thought this would be genuine new ground to cover.

EDIT: And I thought you of all people would appreciate it, not because you are black, but because people kept calling you a sexist sexual harrasser.

Unless I missed something, Those “bate threads” that were running rampant 2-3 years ago have largely died down since then because we as a community had addressed the fact that some folks were just finding ways to ask the same questions with different wording to ultimately try to instigate shouting matches between us. So I don’t understand the need to dedicate a whole thread to situations that were already handled or potential situations that are usually taken care of as they come. But I won’t blame you too much for that.

As far as people suggesting that I was this or that because of my opinion on something never really mattered. We’re acquainted through our appreciation of Dragon Ball and being members on this forum but we really don’t know each other personally so folks can think what they want.. Ironically the finger pointers have been banned.. Besides, the people who were at least open to understanding where I was coming from have told me as such in private..