Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

I think Goku was suppressed against Kale but Hugo Boss would be correct that there's nothing within the fight itself that suggests that Blue Goku would have easily defeated Kale. Just watching Kale ragdoll a suppressed Blue Kale would be all that we would have to go off at the time and that wouldn't be enough for Blue Goku to be definitively above Kale. Goku gauges his opponent with lower forms before entering full power. It would have been more appropriate for Goku to use Super Saiyan God if Blue was unnecessary.

For Goku to have been able to defeat Kale in Super Saiyan God would certainly suggest that Goku had gotten stronger during his battle with Kale and Caulifa.

[Miracles]

It wouldn't matter. If stamina correlated to power, there's no conceivable way Goku would have matched Kefla in power. Aside from that, the only thing that is emphasized is Goku lacking stamina, not power. His lack of stamina was the reason why he lost. Not because he couldn't put out his full power. At that point, he is using Kaioken x20 Blue. In that form, it should be expected that he would be at full power.

With this same logic, you could argue that Goku was not at full power against Jiren but it should be patently obvious that he was.

Before the fight between Caulifa and Goku, Champa said Goku would normally defeat her easily but he is weakened from facing Jiren.

Goku said he didn't have enough strength to go three.

Kaioshin said fending off two SSJ's is too much for Goku without all his power.

He didn't have enough energy to access his stronger transformations but that doesn't mean the highest level he could enter at that point was not at full power. Goku's strength gains are literally lumped with Caulifa's and Kefla's. What is often forgotten is that Caulifa was also worn down by the time she fought Goku but had enough stamina to maintain full power.

Even with Goku's reduced stamina, he was evidently at full power when he was using Kaioken x20 Blue. Why would this not extend to his other forms? I don't really understand why you are arguing for inconsistent writing when the answer is pretty obvious. There've already been multiple times in which Goku's stamina was depleted but he could access his full power. His limit-breaking Kamehameha against Merged Zamasu was not enough to deplete Goku's full power immediately. Goku's battle against Caulifa and Kefla was nowhere near as strenuous.

Caulifa said she recovered before fighting Goku. The narration repeatedly said Goku lacks stamina/power vs Caulifa, Caulifa/Kale all the way up to the point he gets knocked out by Kefla. Stamina and energy are the same. When Freeza gave Goku energy that help'd him move a bit too.

[Goku9001]

Before the fight between Caulifa and Goku, Champa said Goku would normally defeat her easily but he is weakened from facing Jiren.

Goku said he didn't have enough strength to go three.

Kaioshin said fending off two SSJ's is too much for Goku without all his power.

He didn't have enough energy to access his stronger transformations but that doesn't mean the highest level he could enter at that point was not at full power. Goku's strength gains are literally lumped with Caulifa's and Kefla's. What is often forgotten is that Caulifa was also worn down by the time she fought Goku but had enough stamina to maintain full power.

Even with Goku's reduced stamina, he was evidently at full power when he was using Kaioken x20 Blue. Why would this not extend to his other forms? I don't really understand why you are arguing for inconsistent writing when the answer is pretty obvious. There've already been multiple times in which Goku's stamina was depleted but he could access his full power. His limit-breaking Kamehameha against Merged Zamasu was not enough to deplete Goku's full power immediately. Goku's battle against Caulifa and Kefla was nowhere near as strenuous.

Caulifa said she recovered before fighting Goku. The narration repeatedly said Goku lacks stamina/power vs Caulifa, Caulifa/Kale all the way up to the point he gets knocked out by Kefla. Stamina and energy are the same. When Freeza gave Goku energy that help'd him move a bit too.

The narration repeatedly suggests that Goku's lack of stamina precluded him from using higher forms and that would be the reason why Goku was never operating at full power. That doesn't guarantee that Goku lacked power in his respective forms.

Stamina and energy aren't the same. Energy is a term used to describe both Goku and Kefla's power. Stamina was a term exclusively used to describe Goku's battle condition. Goku's stamina was emphasized to be a hindrance against Kefla because he wouldn't be able to last long but that wasn't suggested to have hindered his power even while using Kaioken Blue. When Goku and Kefla fight, Whis explicitly states that their energies were getting stronger. Champa also never expected Kefla's energy to be as high as it was. Those are all references to power, not stamina.

[Miracles]

He didn't have enough energy to access his stronger transformations but that doesn't mean the highest level he could enter at that point was not at full power. Goku's strength gains are literally lumped with Caulifa's and Kefla's. What is often forgotten is that Caulifa was also worn down by the time she fought Goku but had enough stamina to maintain full power.

Even with Goku's reduced stamina, he was evidently at full power when he was using Kaioken x20 Blue. Why would this not extend to his other forms? I don't really understand why you are arguing for inconsistent writing when the answer is pretty obvious. There've already been multiple times in which Goku's stamina was depleted but he could access his full power. His limit-breaking Kamehameha against Merged Zamasu was not enough to deplete Goku's full power immediately. Goku's battle against Caulifa and Kefla was nowhere near as strenuous.

Caulifa said she recovered before fighting Goku. The narration repeatedly said Goku lacks stamina/power vs Caulifa, Caulifa/Kale all the way up to the point he gets knocked out by Kefla. Stamina and energy are the same. When Freeza gave Goku energy that help'd him move a bit too.

The narration repeatedly suggests that Goku's lack of stamina precluded him from using higher forms and that would be the reason why Goku was never operating at full power. That doesn't guarantee that Goku lacked power in his respective forms.

Stamina and energy aren't the same. Energy is a term used to describe both Goku and Kefla's power. Stamina was a term exclusively used to describe Goku's battle condition. Goku's stamina was emphasized to be a hindrance against Kefla because he wouldn't be able to last long but that wasn't suggested to have hindered his power even while using Kaioken Blue. When Goku and Kefla fight, Whis explicitly states that their energies were getting stronger. Champa also never expected Kefla's energy to be as high as it was. Those are all references to power, not stamina.

For one not to have power to access said forms means they don't have the stamina to achieve them. Hence why Goku refrained from using Blue as not to waste energy/stamina since it drains an immense amount of vitality/strength.

[Goku9001]

Caulifa said she recovered before fighting Goku. The narration repeatedly said Goku lacks stamina/power vs Caulifa, Caulifa/Kale all the way up to the point he gets knocked out by Kefla. Stamina and energy are the same. When Freeza gave Goku energy that help'd him move a bit too.

The narration repeatedly suggests that Goku's lack of stamina precluded him from using higher forms and that would be the reason why Goku was never operating at full power. That doesn't guarantee that Goku lacked power in his respective forms.

Stamina and energy aren't the same. Energy is a term used to describe both Goku and Kefla's power. Stamina was a term exclusively used to describe Goku's battle condition. Goku's stamina was emphasized to be a hindrance against Kefla because he wouldn't be able to last long but that wasn't suggested to have hindered his power even while using Kaioken Blue. When Goku and Kefla fight, Whis explicitly states that their energies were getting stronger. Champa also never expected Kefla's energy to be as high as it was. Those are all references to power, not stamina.

For one not to have power to access said forms means they don't have the stamina to achieve them. Hence why Goku refrained from using Blue as not to waste energy/stamina since it drains an immense amount of vitality/strength.

It just means that maintaining full power at Super Saiyan 2 is less exhaustive than maintaining Super Saiyan God or Blue.

[Miracles]

The narration repeatedly suggests that Goku's lack of stamina precluded him from using higher forms and that would be the reason why Goku was never operating at full power. That doesn't guarantee that Goku lacked power in his respective forms.

Stamina and energy aren't the same. Energy is a term used to describe both Goku and Kefla's power. Stamina was a term exclusively used to describe Goku's battle condition. Goku's stamina was emphasized to be a hindrance against Kefla because he wouldn't be able to last long but that wasn't suggested to have hindered his power even while using Kaioken Blue. When Goku and Kefla fight, Whis explicitly states that their energies were getting stronger. Champa also never expected Kefla's energy to be as high as it was. Those are all references to power, not stamina.

For one not to have power to access said forms means they don't have the stamina to achieve them. Hence why Goku refrained from using Blue as not to waste energy/stamina since it drains an immense amount of vitality/strength.

It just means that maintaining full power at Super Saiyan 2 is less exhaustive than maintaining Super Saiyan God or Blue.

The point is energy and stamina are the same. Freeza gave Goku energy and it gave him the stamina/strength to move.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If Goku and Vegeta haven’t changed in the ToP, and in turn haven’t changed since the Future Trunks Saga, then how come Gogeta stomps someone comparable to Beerus while Vegetto gets his hands full with Zamasu?

[Goku9001]

For one not to have power to access said forms means they don't have the stamina to achieve them. Hence why Goku refrained from using Blue as not to waste energy/stamina since it drains an immense amount of vitality/strength.

It just means that maintaining full power at Super Saiyan 2 is less exhaustive than maintaining Super Saiyan God or Blue.

The point is energy and stamina are the same. Freeza gave Goku energy and it gave him the stamina/strength to move.

That would mean that any drop in stamina would lead to a drop in power. That's not how the series works.

This would be equivalent to saying that since a car needs gas to move, then a car cannot move at maximum speed without a full gas tank. Clearly not the case.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

If Goku and Vegeta haven’t changed in the ToP, and in turn haven’t changed since the Future Trunks Saga, then how come Gogeta stomps someone comparable to Beerus while Vegetto gets his hands full with Zamasu?

To be fair, Fused Zamasu's power wasn't the problem, and Vegetto Blue was handling him fine on that front. It's just that the damn guy couldn't stay down, unlike Broly who was feeling and sustaining every hit he took.

[Miracles]

If Goku and Vegeta haven’t changed in the ToP, and in turn haven’t changed since the Future Trunks Saga, then how come Gogeta stomps someone comparable to Beerus while Vegetto gets his hands full with Zamasu?

They train in between arcs. For example Goku was strong enough to handle Blue Kaioken X20 going into the TOP.
When last time it was noted that Blue Kaioken X10 was his max.

It just means that maintaining full power at Super Saiyan 2 is less exhaustive than maintaining Super Saiyan God or Blue.

The point is energy and stamina are the same. Freeza gave Goku energy and it gave him the stamina/strength to move.

That would mean that any drop in stamina would lead to a drop in power. That's not how the series works.

This would be equivalent to saying that since a car needs gas to move, then a car cannot move at maximum speed without a full gas tank. Clearly not the case.

When Vegeta's stamina was dropping against Android 18 he started getting pushed back. The fight was even when his energy was stable.

[ZombieVito]

If Goku and Vegeta haven’t changed in the ToP, and in turn haven’t changed since the Future Trunks Saga, then how come Gogeta stomps someone comparable to Beerus while Vegetto gets his hands full with Zamasu?

To be fair, Fused Zamasu's power wasn't the problem, and Vegetto Blue was handling him fine on that front. It's just that the damn guy couldn't stay down, unlike Broly who was feeling and sustaining every hit he took.

But they still clashed fists at the end of the day. The only reason Vegetto was "winning" is because of speed, as he says before firing the Final Kamehameha.

[SupremeKai25]

If Goku and Vegeta haven’t changed in the ToP, and in turn haven’t changed since the Future Trunks Saga, then how come Gogeta stomps someone comparable to Beerus while Vegetto gets his hands full with Zamasu?

Why would you still think that Broly is "comparable" to Beerus? That might have been the case in 2019, but after Moro and Granolah arcs, it is clear that Beerus is a moving goalpost and Goku simply overestimated Broly.

[Yuji]

If Goku and Vegeta haven’t changed in the ToP, and in turn haven’t changed since the Future Trunks Saga, then how come Gogeta stomps someone comparable to Beerus while Vegetto gets his hands full with Zamasu?

In the manga, Vegetto Blue is compared to Beerus and handles Zamasu without trouble. The duo don't get significantly stronger in the weaker forms until the Moro arc.

[Goku9001]

GreatSaiyaman123 is strictly talking about the anime. There's no denying that Gogeta Blue is significantly stronger than Vegetto Blue in the anime. Broly is already stronger than Jiren by a wide margin and Jiren supposedly surpassed Merged Zamasu significantly by Episode 109. Merged Zamasu was rather competitive with Vegetto Blue.

When Vegeta's stamina was dropping against Android 18 he started getting pushed back. The fight was even when his energy was stable.

Are there any statements provided that attribute Goku's increase in power as a result of an increase in stamina? I'm not talking about increasing his power by accessing a higher transformation. I'm strictly talking about his energy spiking within the same form.

[Miracles]

GreatSaiyaman123 is strictly talking about the anime. There's no denying that Gogeta Blue is significantly stronger than Vegetto Blue in the anime. Broly is already stronger than Jiren by a wide margin and Jiren supposedly surpassed Merged Zamasu significantly by Episode 109. Merged Zamasu was rather competitive with Vegetto Blue.

When Vegeta's stamina was dropping against Android 18 he started getting pushed back. The fight was even when his energy was stable.

Are there any statements provided that attribute Goku's increase in power as a result of an increase in stamina? I'm not talking about increasing his power by accessing a higher transformation. I'm strictly talking about his energy spiking within the same form.

You have it with the Freeza example, giving Goku energy in his tired base form.

[Goku9001]

GreatSaiyaman123 is strictly talking about the anime. There's no denying that Gogeta Blue is significantly stronger than Vegetto Blue in the anime. Broly is already stronger than Jiren by a wide margin and Jiren supposedly surpassed Merged Zamasu significantly by Episode 109. Merged Zamasu was rather competitive with Vegetto Blue.

When Vegeta's stamina was dropping against Android 18 he started getting pushed back. The fight was even when his energy was stable.

Are there any statements provided that attribute Goku's increase in power as a result of an increase in stamina? I'm not talking about increasing his power by accessing a higher transformation. I'm strictly talking about his energy spiking within the same form.

You have it with the Freeza example, giving Goku energy in his tired base form.

I'm asking for direct statements that are directly related to Goku's fight with Caulifa. The only moment where Goku's stamina recovery was explicitly mentioned was upon reaching a higher transformation.

[Hugo Boss]

Stamina and energy are related terms, but they have subtle differences in their meaning. Stamina refers to a person's physical and mental endurance to withstand prolonged effort or strenuous activities. On the other hand, energy is related to the strength and vitality that a person has. Although interconnected, stamina is more about endurance capacity, while energy is about the availability of resources to take action.

[Miracles]

GreatSaiyaman123 is strictly talking about the anime. There's no denying that Gogeta Blue is significantly stronger than Vegetto Blue in the anime. Broly is already stronger than Jiren by a wide margin and Jiren supposedly surpassed Merged Zamasu significantly by Episode 109. Merged Zamasu was rather competitive with Vegetto Blue.



Are there any statements provided that attribute Goku's increase in power as a result of an increase in stamina? I'm not talking about increasing his power by accessing a higher transformation. I'm strictly talking about his energy spiking within the same form.

You have it with the Freeza example, giving Goku energy in his tired base form.

I'm asking for direct statements that are directly related to Goku's fight with Caulifa. The only moment where Goku's stamina recovery was explicitly mentioned was upon reaching a higher transformation.

Episode 113

Caulifa asks Goku: "Aren't you gonna transform too?"
Base mode Goku says: "I just fought Jiren, so I'm a bit tapped out."
"Don't worry, though. I'll work up to it slowly."

[Goku9001]

You have it with the Freeza example, giving Goku energy in his tired base form.

I'm asking for direct statements that are directly related to Goku's fight with Caulifa. The only moment where Goku's stamina recovery was explicitly mentioned was upon reaching a higher transformation.

Episode 113

Caulifa asks Goku: "Aren't you gonna transform too?"
Base mode Goku says: "I just fought Jiren, so I'm a bit tapped out."
"Don't worry, though. I'll work up to it slowly."

This means that there is a certain level of stamina required to transform. That isn't indicative of Goku's power in his respective transformations. When we are told that Goku and Caulifa's energy was rising, we aren't told that it was a result of Goku regaining his stamina. That was noted to be a separate thing. In fact, Goku clashing with Caulifa wouldn't be the reason why his stamina would recover.

[Miracles]

I'm asking for direct statements that are directly related to Goku's fight with Caulifa. The only moment where Goku's stamina recovery was explicitly mentioned was upon reaching a higher transformation.

Episode 113

Caulifa asks Goku: "Aren't you gonna transform too?"
Base mode Goku says: "I just fought Jiren, so I'm a bit tapped out."
"Don't worry, though. I'll work up to it slowly."

This means that there is a certain level of stamina required to transform. That isn't indicative of Goku's power in his respective transformations. When we are told that Goku and Caulifa's energy was rising, we aren't told that it was a result of Goku regaining his stamina. That was noted to be a separate thing. In fact, Goku clashing with Caulifa wouldn't be the reason why his stamina would recover.

Exactly and while Goku is in his base mode he needed to recover his strength which attributes to his stamina to transform. In other words Goku built up strength/stamina in base so he could overcome that level to transform.