Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

Episode 113

Caulifa asks Goku: "Aren't you gonna transform too?"
Base mode Goku says: "I just fought Jiren, so I'm a bit tapped out."
"Don't worry, though. I'll work up to it slowly."

This means that there is a certain level of stamina required to transform. That isn't indicative of Goku's power in his respective transformations. When we are told that Goku and Caulifa's energy was rising, we aren't told that it was a result of Goku regaining his stamina. That was noted to be a separate thing. In fact, Goku clashing with Caulifa wouldn't be the reason why his stamina would recover.

Exactly and while Goku is in his base mode he needed to recover his strength which attributes to his stamina to transform. In other words Goku built up strength/stamina in base so he could overcome that level to transform.

So according to your reasoning, Base Goku cannot be at full power while simultaneously not having enough stamina to transform?

[Miracles]

This means that there is a certain level of stamina required to transform. That isn't indicative of Goku's power in his respective transformations. When we are told that Goku and Caulifa's energy was rising, we aren't told that it was a result of Goku regaining his stamina. That was noted to be a separate thing. In fact, Goku clashing with Caulifa wouldn't be the reason why his stamina would recover.

Exactly and while Goku is in his base mode he needed to recover his strength which attributes to his stamina to transform. In other words Goku built up strength/stamina in base so he could overcome that level to transform.

So according to your reasoning, Base Goku cannot be at full power while simultaneously not having enough stamina to transform?

That's according to the story. Especially when in episode 112 where Goku told Vegeta he was stringing opponents along until he got his "strength back" while panting.

[Goku9001]

Exactly and while Goku is in his base mode he needed to recover his strength which attributes to his stamina to transform. In other words Goku built up strength/stamina in base so he could overcome that level to transform.

So according to your reasoning, Base Goku cannot be at full power while simultaneously not having enough stamina to transform?

That's according to the story. Especially when in episode 112 where Goku told Vegeta he was stringing opponents along until he got his "strength back" while panting.

That would be your reasoning. You're implying that throughout the duration of the fight, Goku was not operating at full power because he needs the strength to transform. According to the story, Goku's battle with Caulifa was primarily the reason why his energy was growing stronger which is different than what stamina entails. Stamina related to Goku's battle condition and ability to outlast. Energy referred to the strength of both Caulifa/Kefla and Goku. The only thing your argument serves to prove was that there was a point where Goku could hardly move which affected his strength. That was immediately not the case when Goku had begun to fight Caulifa.

[Miracles]

So according to your reasoning, Base Goku cannot be at full power while simultaneously not having enough stamina to transform?

That's according to the story. Especially when in episode 112 where Goku told Vegeta he was stringing opponents along until he got his "strength back" while panting.

That would be your reasoning. You're implying that throughout the duration of the fight, Goku was not operating at full power because he needs the strength to transform. According to the story, Goku's battle with Caulifa was primarily the reason why his energy was growing stronger which is different than what stamina entails. Stamina related to Goku's battle condition and ability to outlast. Energy referred to the strength of both Caulifa/Kefla and Goku. The only thing your argument serves to prove was that there was a point where Goku could hardly move which affected his strength. That was immediately not the case when Goku had begun to fight Caulifa.

It's already been established in DB that energy is stamina...

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P12.4-6
Context: after Trunks says Vegeta seems to be doing OK fighting No.18
Piccolo: “Vegeta’s going to be killed…[ ] Watch…Bit by bit, the android is starting to push him back. It’s because his enemy’s power never falls at all, while Vegeta’s stamina falls the more he moves.”

[Goku9001]

That's according to the story. Especially when in episode 112 where Goku told Vegeta he was stringing opponents along until he got his "strength back" while panting.

That would be your reasoning. You're implying that throughout the duration of the fight, Goku was not operating at full power because he needs the strength to transform. According to the story, Goku's battle with Caulifa was primarily the reason why his energy was growing stronger which is different than what stamina entails. Stamina related to Goku's battle condition and ability to outlast. Energy referred to the strength of both Caulifa/Kefla and Goku. The only thing your argument serves to prove was that there was a point where Goku could hardly move which affected his strength. That was immediately not the case when Goku had begun to fight Caulifa.

It's already been established in DB that energy is stamina...

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P12.4-6
Context: after Trunks says Vegeta seems to be doing OK fighting No.18
Piccolo: “Vegeta’s going to be killed…[ ] Watch…Bit by bit, the android is starting to push him back. It’s because his enemy’s power never falls at all, while Vegeta’s stamina falls the more he moves.”

We are repeating the same thing. There's no denying that your power can fall when your stamina falls but that doesn't mean Goku was at a point where he could not maintain full power as a Super Saiyan 2. Super Saiyan Goku presumably maintained full power in his battle with Frieza. Hell, Frieza maintained full power until his stamina reached a point where that was no longer possible.

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Context: after Goku and full-power Freeza have fought for a while
Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

To put things into perspective, your power would naturally fall if your body was in a state where your ki was steadily falling. Goku was never presented to be in that state until he reached his Kaioken Blue form. It was at that point that Beerus was concerned that Goku could maintain his power.

Do you believe that Goku was not at full power even once he reached his Kaioken Blue form because stamina was still presented as an issue?

[Miracles]

That would be your reasoning. You're implying that throughout the duration of the fight, Goku was not operating at full power because he needs the strength to transform. According to the story, Goku's battle with Caulifa was primarily the reason why his energy was growing stronger which is different than what stamina entails. Stamina related to Goku's battle condition and ability to outlast. Energy referred to the strength of both Caulifa/Kefla and Goku. The only thing your argument serves to prove was that there was a point where Goku could hardly move which affected his strength. That was immediately not the case when Goku had begun to fight Caulifa.

It's already been established in DB that energy is stamina...

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P12.4-6
Context: after Trunks says Vegeta seems to be doing OK fighting No.18
Piccolo: “Vegeta’s going to be killed…[ ] Watch…Bit by bit, the android is starting to push him back. It’s because his enemy’s power never falls at all, while Vegeta’s stamina falls the more he moves.”

We are repeating the same thing. There's no denying that your power can fall when your stamina falls but that doesn't mean Goku was at a point where he could not maintain full power as a Super Saiyan 2. Super Saiyan Goku presumably maintained full power in his battle with Frieza. Hell, Frieza maintained full power until his stamina reached a point where that was no longer possible.

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Context: after Goku and full-power Freeza have fought for a while
Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

To put things into perspective, your power would naturally fall if your body was in a state where your ki was steadily falling. Goku was never presented to be in that state until he reached his Kaioken Blue form. It was at that point that Beerus was concerned that Goku could maintain his power.

Do you believe that Goku was not at full power even once he reached his Kaioken Blue form because stamina was still presented as an issue?

You answered your own question with the bold and the quote you provided.

[Goku9001]

It's already been established in DB that energy is stamina...

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P12.4-6
Context: after Trunks says Vegeta seems to be doing OK fighting No.18
Piccolo: “Vegeta’s going to be killed…[ ] Watch…Bit by bit, the android is starting to push him back. It’s because his enemy’s power never falls at all, while Vegeta’s stamina falls the more he moves.”

We are repeating the same thing. There's no denying that your power can fall when your stamina falls but that doesn't mean Goku was at a point where he could not maintain full power as a Super Saiyan 2. Super Saiyan Goku presumably maintained full power in his battle with Frieza. Hell, Frieza maintained full power until his stamina reached a point where that was no longer possible.

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Context: after Goku and full-power Freeza have fought for a while
Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

To put things into perspective, your power would naturally fall if your body was in a state where your ki was steadily falling. Goku was never presented to be in that state until he reached his Kaioken Blue form. It was at that point that Beerus was concerned that Goku could maintain his power.

Do you believe that Goku was not at full power even once he reached his Kaioken Blue form because stamina was still presented as an issue?

You answered your own question with the bold and the quote you provided.

Why are you avoiding the question?

[Miracles]

We are repeating the same thing. There's no denying that your power can fall when your stamina falls but that doesn't mean Goku was at a point where he could not maintain full power as a Super Saiyan 2. Super Saiyan Goku presumably maintained full power in his battle with Frieza. Hell, Frieza maintained full power until his stamina reached a point where that was no longer possible.

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Context: after Goku and full-power Freeza have fought for a while
Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

To put things into perspective, your power would naturally fall if your body was in a state where your ki was steadily falling. Goku was never presented to be in that state until he reached his Kaioken Blue form. It was at that point that Beerus was concerned that Goku could maintain his power.

Do you believe that Goku was not at full power even once he reached his Kaioken Blue form because stamina was still presented as an issue?

You answered your own question with the bold and the quote you provided.

Why are you avoiding the question?

The story said Goku wasn't even at full power when he reached Super Saiyan god. Then Champa believed Kefla in her lower SSJ form could handle Blue Goku because he wasn't at "full stamina." Compared to Kefla's energy, even tho "Goku has come a long way."

[Goku9001]

You answered your own question with the bold and the quote you provided.

Why are you avoiding the question?

The story said Goku wasn't even at full power when he reached Super Saiyan god. Then Champa believed Kefla in her lower SSJ form could handle Blue Goku because he wasn't at "full stamina." Compared to Kefla's energy, even tho "Goku has come a long way."

Goku's full power is his Blue Kaioken form. Regardless of how powerful Goku had become in his lower forms, he wouldn't be at his body's full power overall as a Super Saiyan God. In relation to Champa's claim, he would be correct. Both exhibited the same power so Kefla would have an inherent advantage against Goku who wasn't operating at full stamina.

As for the bold, it proves my point that energy and stamina are seen differently even though they are related. Energy in that context is referring to Kefla's power.

[Miracles]

Why are you avoiding the question?

The story said Goku wasn't even at full power when he reached Super Saiyan god. Then Champa believed Kefla in her lower SSJ form could handle Blue Goku because he wasn't at "full stamina." Compared to Kefla's energy, even tho "Goku has come a long way."

Goku's full power is his Blue Kaioken form. Regardless of how powerful Goku had become in his lower forms, he wouldn't be at his body's full power overall as a Super Saiyan God. In relation to Champa's claim, he would be correct. Both exhibited the same power so Kefla would have an inherent advantage against Goku who wasn't operating at full stamina.

As for the bold, it proves my point that energy and stamina are seen differently even though they are related. Energy in that context is referring to Kefla's power.

In the context that Champa thinks Kefla's power can beat Goku cause he isn't at full stamina. If Champa thought that energy and stamina were different he wouldn't have thought Kefla could win.

[Goku9001]

The story said Goku wasn't even at full power when he reached Super Saiyan god. Then Champa believed Kefla in her lower SSJ form could handle Blue Goku because he wasn't at "full stamina." Compared to Kefla's energy, even tho "Goku has come a long way."

Goku's full power is his Blue Kaioken form. Regardless of how powerful Goku had become in his lower forms, he wouldn't be at his body's full power overall as a Super Saiyan God. In relation to Champa's claim, he would be correct. Both exhibited the same power so Kefla would have an inherent advantage against Goku who wasn't operating at full stamina.

As for the bold, it proves my point that energy and stamina are seen differently even though they are related. Energy in that context is referring to Kefla's power.

In the context that Champa thinks Kefla's power can beat Goku cause he isn't at full stamina. If Champa thought that energy and stamina were different he wouldn't have thought Kefla could win.

Champa blatantly stated, "I didn't think Kefla's energy was so high". That's not a stamina-related remark. That is strictly a power assessment that he made upon Kefla transforming. Aside from that, why wouldn't Champa believe this? Both were equal fighters. The one who is operating at full stamina or close to it would naturally win. That doesn't say anything as to whether or not Goku was operating at full power.

[Miracles]

Goku's full power is his Blue Kaioken form. Regardless of how powerful Goku had become in his lower forms, he wouldn't be at his body's full power overall as a Super Saiyan God. In relation to Champa's claim, he would be correct. Both exhibited the same power so Kefla would have an inherent advantage against Goku who wasn't operating at full stamina.

As for the bold, it proves my point that energy and stamina are seen differently even though they are related. Energy in that context is referring to Kefla's power.

In the context that Champa thinks Kefla's power can beat Goku cause he isn't at full stamina. If Champa thought that energy and stamina were different he wouldn't have thought Kefla could win.

Champa blatantly stated, "I didn't think Kefla's energy was so high". That's not a stamina-related remark. That is strictly a power assessment that he made upon Kefla transforming. Aside from that, why wouldn't Champa believe this? Both were equal fighters. The one who is operating at full stamina or close to it would naturally win. That doesn't say anything as to whether or not Goku was operating at full power.

Because Goku wasn't at full stamina Champa based Kefla's victory on that and her energy being higher than expected.

[Goku9001]

In the context that Champa thinks Kefla's power can beat Goku cause he isn't at full stamina. If Champa thought that energy and stamina were different he wouldn't have thought Kefla could win.

Champa blatantly stated, "I didn't think Kefla's energy was so high". That's not a stamina-related remark. That is strictly a power assessment that he made upon Kefla transforming. Aside from that, why wouldn't Champa believe this? Both were equal fighters. The one who is operating at full stamina or close to it would naturally win. That doesn't say anything as to whether or not Goku was operating at full power.

Because Goku wasn't at full stamina Champa based Kefla's victory on that and her energy being higher than expected.

Was Kaioken Blue Goku at full power against Kefla?

[Miracles]

Champa blatantly stated, "I didn't think Kefla's energy was so high". That's not a stamina-related remark. That is strictly a power assessment that he made upon Kefla transforming. Aside from that, why wouldn't Champa believe this? Both were equal fighters. The one who is operating at full stamina or close to it would naturally win. That doesn't say anything as to whether or not Goku was operating at full power.

Because Goku wasn't at full stamina Champa based Kefla's victory on that and her energy being higher than expected.

Was Kaioken Blue Goku at full power against Kefla?

No since it was stated that Goku was still "run-down" when he used Blue Kaioken too.

[Goku9001]

Because Goku wasn't at full stamina Champa based Kefla's victory on that and her energy being higher than expected.

Was Kaioken Blue Goku at full power against Kefla?

No since it was stated that Goku was still "run-down" when he used Blue Kaioken too.

But this form of Goku matched Super Saiyan Kefla?

[Miracles]

Was Kaioken Blue Goku at full power against Kefla?

No since it was stated that Goku was still "run-down" when he used Blue Kaioken too.

But this form of Goku matched Super Saiyan Kefla?

Yep. Not even at full strength, it was enough for Goku to put up a good fight.

[Goku9001]

No since it was stated that Goku was still "run-down" when he used Blue Kaioken too.

But this form of Goku matched Super Saiyan Kefla?

Yep. Not even at full strength, it was enough for Goku to put up a good fight.

That would mean that Kaioken Blue Goku reached power on par with the U7 Genkidama that collided with Jiren's energy.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think this makes sense. Goku gets one big boost from absorbing the Genki-Dama, but doesn't use all of it vs the girls because he was so tired.

But if Kefla's power was said to be constantly rising, isn't it possible she only reached Genki-Dama level when she landed that finishing blow on Goku?

[Thani]

I think this makes sense. Goku gets one big boost from absorbing the Genki-Dama, but doesn't use all of it vs the girls because he was so tired.

But if Kefla's power was said to be constantly rising, isn't it possible she only reached Genki-Dama level when she landed that finishing blow on Goku?

Considering that Whis only compared her to the Genki Dama after she defeated Goku, and even Beerus commented on her energy being massive, I think this is a safe bet, IMO.

If Goku had already reached that level, it wouldn't make sense that Kefla forced him to break his limits if she's only at a level he already was in.

[Miracles]

But this form of Goku matched Super Saiyan Kefla?

Yep. Not even at full strength, it was enough for Goku to put up a good fight.

That would mean that Kaioken Blue Goku reached power on par with the U7 Genkidama that collided with Jiren's energy.

When he got one shotted? I think that is a stretch. However, logically I can see why you say that because he was going back and forth with Kefla. Again this is why I say it comes down to TOEI's bad writing.