Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

[ClutchBangstrip]

How many people actively praise Goku's dumber characterisation, though? Is this really something that fans around the world hanker for out of their Dragon Ball media, or is it just a peripheral element that people grin and bear through to get to the more appealing aspects of Goku's character (e.g. friendly personality, amazing powers, love of strong opponents), amongst all of the other things that make Dragon Ball an internationally beloved IP? While I think the latter is more likely based on interactions I've had with fans both online and in real life, it's impossible to say with any certainty because you're making an extremely broad, generalised assumption here based purely on box office figures.

I'm not here to deny that Goku's social cluelessness is a big part of his character, but it was a strange move to suddenly start arguing ad populum here. Of course users on a niche fan forum are going to overthink and take umbrage with trivial things that general audiences don't spare a single stray thought towards, but it doesn't make their opinions any less valid. On an entirely subjective level, I just don't find many of the "dumb Goku" jokes very funny, particularly when they're used to undermine his overall characterisation as we understand it.

Goku is still arguably Dragon Ball's most popular character, to this day. Likely the most popular character in all of anime and manga. The franchise has reached new heights whilst relying heavily on him. Also something people on this very minute section of the internet constantly complain about. Despite it being cash-money... Largely because of Goku...

These facts clearly outweigh whatever a section of the fandom thinks on the internet. People grin and bare his comical idiocy to continue to prop him up as arguably the greatest anime character of all time, even after several decades?

That sounds like a reach. Most people enjoy the fact that Goku is comically stupid. The creators wouldn't keep doing it if that wasn't the case. It's a joke. That's a far easier assumption.

Idk if people are leaving Dragon Ball and watching/reading other anime/manga and coming back, forgetting what Dragon Ball is/was or what.

It's not One Piece or Bleach. Dragon Ball's really silly. Goku and Arale are neck & neck.

Profit is nothing. Mafia is doing a lot of profits right now. So mafia is correct?

Is not about comedy. As you, I like more original than DBZ.
It's a matter of COHERENCY.

Vegeta = hot headed, rushing, blast-all proud prince of Sayan. He just learned to channel his destruction instinct.
Goku = naive but strongly scrupulous Earthling hero. Whatever Toriyama say, Goku save the Universe coming with ideas on the fly, driven by feels.

Now you'll see Vegeta the savvy student, Goku unaware of meditation training, and WTF how they didn't came with that some years ago? Not wasting energy? How Goku didn't noticed?!?!

Let's rewrite the scene.
Vegeta clash with Broly, just to lose.
-Why I cannot win?-
He notice Goku meditating and tell him that's not actual training and he's wasting time. Goku explain what he noticed while fighting Jiren (as it was Goku that *mostly* fought Jiren!): efficient KI management.
(Now for the comedy)
Vegeta: -So you're meditating to keep KI under control?-
Goku: -Meditating? No, right now I was just waiting for food. Soooo hungry!-
Vegeta shout, Goku eating babbling "You cannot meditate with an empty stomach". Just later again, Goku seems to meditate, while instead falling asleep for digestion. Vegeta angry again.
Finally, in DB style, Goku *really* meditating, and everyone notice a change in his KI signature. Wow!
Comedy served, DB mood delivered, and everyone still in role.

Do you understand now the issue? Is not the amount of comedy, is how they force comedy BADLY.
Practically, Toriyama and the staff have no more sense of humor and lost the grip on their characters.
Why so? You can age badly.

Unfortunately, I don't agree with any of this. While I would have agreed with the meditation issue being slightly annoying, it's fixed in the manga.

Goku is not unaware of meditation, he's just surprised to see someone like Vegeta doing it with his own eyes.

[Alkiser]

I for one feel that these conversations are already tiring, literally for years this topic has been rolled out and the same things are written. It's not even a discussion that contributes something it's literally writing the same things and repeating ourselves.

Maybe 7 years ago it was quite fresh and honest wondering why Goku in DBS is the way he is, but now it's just creating secondary discussions that contribute nothing.

[GurixDr34]

Yes i also miss Toei serious Goku from the original Dragon Ball Z but Goku was always funny i feel that one of the reasons why Goku acts like this in Super is because there has not yet been a serious Villain who is a threat to the existence of the Universe Super needs a Villain who is a serious threat to Beerus Whis the Gods and Zeno Sama so that the serious Goku and Z tone can return i respect Jiren and Zamasu but i never felt those characters were truly intimidating or that they were a serious threat also Dragon Ball Z was an Anime from the 90s the Anime of that time was very different from the Anime of now Dragon Ball Super is a representation of the current Anime the adult Goku SSJ4 from Dragon Ball GT acted like the serious Goku from Z more

[super michael]

Yes i also miss Toei serious Goku from the original Dragon Ball Z but Goku was always funny i feel that one of the reasons why Goku acts like this in Super is because there has not yet been a serious Villain who is a threat to the existence of the Universe Super needs a Villain who is a serious threat to Beerus Whis the Gods and Zeno Sama so that the serious Goku and Z tone can return i respect Jiren and Zamasu but i never felt those characters were truly intimidating or that they were a serious threat also Dragon Ball Z was an Anime from the 90s the Anime of that time was very different from the Anime of now Dragon Ball Super is a representation of the current Anime the adult Goku SSJ4 from Dragon Ball GT acted like the serious Goku from Z more

There are 2024 anime that the main character is serious, the year when DBZ came out is irrelevant. Plus in the manga and anime of DB/DBZ Goku knew when to be serious.

Goku sometimes made mistakes in DBZ, his plan might have been flawed. However in DBS they maxed out his flaws to maximum level, constantly saying and doing dumb things. They even make Goku forget the things in he knew in DBS, just to force many gags. Heck DBS even had dedicated episode to Goku being dumb.

DBS Super Hero movie Goku only had a small showing, yet they made him out to be amateur.

[Yuli Ban]

You can't make the determination that the work was 'lazy' based on you simply not liking it. The series is produced on a short schedule and has to factor in not only the creative wills of the people making it but also the desires of the production committee as well as the original creator's decrees about what can and cannot be done. This is to say nothing of being forced into a position of having to try to come up with something while also being unable to make big, status-quo changing decisions because their cartoon series has to be able to not contradict anything Toriyama might arbitrary decide he wants to have happen.

King Ryuu, Tomioka Atsuhiro and the other writers—to say nothing of the series directors and episode directors—are anything but 'lazy' considering all of the odds stacked against them and yet they still managed to turn out numerous good ideas and incorporate them into the series.

Just wanted to say this hits the nail on the head.

If nothing else, it would at least be a refreshing change of pace to discuss the larger meta-narrative of why "idiot male protagonists" are such a big thing. Goku was outright educated early on in Dragon Ball, as Roshi made it fairly clear that you could not train just your body but also your mind (and not just spiritually at that). And while Son-kun was certainly fairly simple in his desires and living an easy life in the country, there wasn't really any indication he was meant to be an outright moron, at least until Super came along. To that extent, I feel like a lot of American fans adopted the Dragon Ball Z Abridged idea of Goku and then Super seemed to reinforce that, so that retroactively recolored our older perception of the man to the point we'd go out of our way to find any evidence proving it in the original series (and ignoring any evidence to the contrary).
Yet it's still true that a lot of media (Japanese and otherwise) generally treats being stupid as funny and boys being idiots as almost the norm, with girls always being far more kept-together and outright neurotic (and thus "lame" but better), and more well-educated/clever boys being sinister or nerdy or effeminate. Perhaps I myself am ignoring a lot of other works where this isn't the case and perhaps in the modern isekai/shonenslop era it's nowhere near what it used to be, but then I am generally focusing on shonen and kodomomuke (since that best describes Dragon Ball's target demographic). But it does seem like a lot of shows from that era found a lot of comedy in an "Idiot Protagonist" and yet it strangely didn't even feel like punching down at them either.
If I'm wrong, please correct me

[super michael]

You can't make the determination that the work was 'lazy' based on you simply not liking it. The series is produced on a short schedule and has to factor in not only the creative wills of the people making it but also the desires of the production committee as well as the original creator's decrees about what can and cannot be done. This is to say nothing of being forced into a position of having to try to come up with something while also being unable to make big, status-quo changing decisions because their cartoon series has to be able to not contradict anything Toriyama might arbitrary decide he wants to have happen.

King Ryuu, Tomioka Atsuhiro and the other writers—to say nothing of the series directors and episode directors—are anything but 'lazy' considering all of the odds stacked against them and yet they still managed to turn out numerous good ideas and incorporate them into the series.

Just wanted to say this hits the nail on the head.

If nothing else, it would at least be a refreshing change of pace to discuss the larger meta-narrative of why "idiot male protagonists" are such a big thing. Goku was outright educated early on in Dragon Ball, as Roshi made it fairly clear that you could not train just your body but also your mind (and not just spiritually at that). And while Son-kun was certainly fairly simple in his desires and living an easy life in the country, there wasn't really any indication he was meant to be an outright moron, at least until Super came along. To that extent, I feel like a lot of American fans adopted the Dragon Ball Z Abridged idea of Goku and then Super seemed to reinforce that, so that retroactively recolored our older perception of the man to the point we'd go out of our way to find any evidence proving it in the original series (and ignoring any evidence to the contrary).
Yet it's still true that a lot of media (Japanese and otherwise) generally treats being stupid as funny and boys being idiots as almost the norm, with girls always being far more kept-together and outright neurotic (and thus "lame" but better), and more well-educated/clever boys being sinister or nerdy or effeminate. Perhaps I myself am ignoring a lot of other works where this isn't the case and perhaps in the modern isekai/shonenslop era it's nowhere near what it used to be, but then I am generally focusing on shonen and kodomomuke (since that best describes Dragon Ball's target demographic). But it does seem like a lot of shows from that era found a lot of comedy in an "Idiot Protagonist" and yet it strangely didn't even feel like punching down at them either.
If I'm wrong, please correct me

There are many anime that the main character who is male are actually smart, anime that are new made in 2024. The female partner are also smart.

Doing dumb things can be funny, but Toei problem was they didn't know when to stop. Even DBS Super Hero they had to make Goku look like a complete amateur, that wasn't necessary. They don't care if the characters looks bad or ruins their characters at all.


I still say DBS Goku isn't anything like Toriyama Goku at all.


In DBS Goku Black Saga everyone treated like a huge deal, when Goku guessed correctly, like he has never said any good ideas before. Goku said two correct until, then Goku said the dumb idea about Senzu Beans = immortality.