The people who grew up with Censored and or modified Dragon Ball

[Majin Buu]

Even as someone who largely agrees with that conversation going on, it's pretty true: it was the same two members going back and forth congratulating each other and patting each other on the back about how correct their viewpoints were. Not particularly exciting or engaging to read, and not how you convince or sway anyone to your side.

That's a fair point, it was getting a bit circle-jerky.

That being said, I've seen the "elitist" complaint thrown around for something as innocuous as simply acknowledging that the two versions are pretty different. That's where my statement was coming from.

[GhostEmperorX]

I think this discussion took an unnecessary turn towards elitism...

If you refer to me, I would like you to please take a look at my first posts from 2020 when I joined prior to throwing this term around... I have undergone a massive shift in opinions and learning since then.
Hard lines have to be drawn in this sort of conversation, only then can proper understanding be reached. I have made it clear that personal preference is 100% ok and that no one can take that away from anyone. But there are times, like this, when it simply has to be left at the door for clear view conversations to take place.

Clock my nationality, I was practically beaten into seeking out the OG out of necessity, and thank god for that, but people who grew up with the dub and still love it aren't any less of a DB fan than someone who only watches it in japanese.

I do not say this of my own accord. I am simply taking the statements that these very people make to their ultimately logical conclusions as to what would be the case had DB/Z gone the way of Saint Seiya or FOTNS instead of the direction it did in the US, and they had encountered it then. It would be by their own admission at that point. I can't tell you how many statements I've seen to that effect.

As long as neither side disrespects the other, everything is just fine.
That goes for japanese purists, too.

Believe me, I know this very well, there's no shortage of those who are belligerent on either side. Back when I expressed dissatisfaction with the original score by Kikuchi mostly just being in F minor and not being "on the same level" as contemporary 80's-90's anime series BGM (an opinion expressed on this very site in the past by others before me) in some YT comment section, I was assumed to be a Faulconer Productions score fan by the first person who replied until I shot that down and then was told that I was being tested for if I was one of them, which says a lot about the dire state of dialogue between two sides in this fandom. Even when I initially came here, I was looking to see if I could be proven wrong by fans of his score and hopefully see what it is they see in it (and sure enough, I was and came to understand things from their point of view).
It turns out that I was tainted by the existing chaos of releases on the internet when I had first seen the series in 2014 (a garbage cropped version, guess who we have to thank for that).

But later on, dialogue with some of those dub fans who I used to agree with really hasn't been pleasant or constructive at all, even when I concede some of their points that I agree with (and then they ironically do the exact same thing I described before of accusing me of being a "purist" or "elitist", and I've also heard worse too).

Even as someone who largely agrees with that conversation going on, it's pretty true: it was the same two members going back and forth congratulating each other and patting each other on the back about how correct their viewpoints were. Not particularly exciting or engaging to read, and not how you convince or sway anyone to your side.

I understand, sir. But if given time and an opportunity, I can be available to hold less polemic-laden discussions with others whom I may not agree with (at least I did so in this thread before that little back-and-forth you described).

[MetaMoss]

That being said, I've seen the "elitist" complaint thrown around for something as innocuous as simply acknowledging that the two versions are pretty different. That's where my statement was coming from.

There's acknowledging that we're dealing with two different beasts and that they should each have their own space, but then there's this...

You can't have a discussion about the series' writing, characters, themes, tonal shifts, genre origins, etc. when the version you're watching is the one that had the dubbing company heavily insert their own vision into it- a vision that often clashes with the original version.

That's a take absolutely worthy of being called elitist. Funimation handled all of those things differently in their dub, but there's still writing, characters, themes, etc. in the dub that have and should be discussed. They won't be discussions relevant to the original manga/anime or stuff that builds off of those like Super, and I can understand that it's frustrating when dub fans don't know the difference. But, to say it's not even possible to discuss or analyze the dub as a piece of fiction is such a warped view of things that I struggle to see how it can come from anything other than some sort of elitist viewpoint.

Speaking to the thread more in general: I can't help but feel a little disappointed whenever I see yet another discussion on here that comes down to "dub bad". Yes, the dub is bad, but I'm not on this website to read more about the dub, why the HFIL do you think I'm here!?

Despite the fact that the "face" of Dragon Ball Z in the English-speaking world is that misguided relic of 20th Century anime localization, and despite the fact that means the vast majority of English-language discussion of Dragon Ball is by people whose interest begins and ends with said relic, this website and community came about and still thrives. We've got a bunch of people here that want to discuss and engage with Dragon Ball from its true, original version and dig into it deeper that perhaps it even deserves, because we love it. Using this forum to instead have the Nth iteration of discussion about how an inferior version is inferior just feels like a waste.

[GhostEmperorX]

That's a take absolutely worthy of being called elitist. Funimation handled all of those things differently in their dub, but there's still writing, characters, themes, etc. in the dub that have and should be discussed. They won't be discussions relevant to the original manga/anime or stuff that builds off of those like Super, and I can understand that it's frustrating when dub fans don't know the difference. But, to say it's not even possible to discuss or analyze the dub as a piece of fiction is such a warped view of things that I struggle to see how it can come from anything other than some sort of elitist viewpoint.

Not quite sure if he meant analyzing the dub as a piece of fiction, but contradictions abound in it anyways, from start to finish as most here including yourself are more than well aware of for 2+ decades, which would be why it ultimately doesn't make much sense (and it's not even some of the more infamous lines from "Season 3"). If it's about what the people adapting it saw in the series (or how it came off to them, how they were trying to make it come off to their audiences, etc) or other such similar production elements, then yes, there's lots of topics for discussion. Maybe even what came to their minds when constructing the dialogue.

And if you ask me, a lot of perceptions around the fandom are warped, not only on this but on a lot of other subjects such as home video releases and such. Personally speaking, it's utterly chaotic, so I'm actually fine with throwing it all in the trash now, especially after how much I've seen elsewhere.

Speaking to the thread more in general: I can't help but feel a little disappointed whenever I see yet another discussion on here that comes down to "dub bad". Yes, the dub is bad, but I'm not on this website to read more about the dub, why the HFIL do you think I'm here!?

Despite the fact that the "face" of Dragon Ball Z in the English-speaking world is that misguided relic of 20th Century anime localization, and despite the fact that means the vast majority of English-language discussion of Dragon Ball is by people whose interest begins and ends with said relic, this website and community came about and still thrives. We've got a bunch of people here that want to discuss and engage with Dragon Ball from its true, original version and dig into it deeper that perhaps it even deserves, because we love it. Using this forum to instead have the Nth iteration of discussion about how an inferior version is inferior just feels like a waste.

I do have a few other topics I want to delve into, but it's not simply about that where I'm concerned. The discussions are likely going to continue incessantly elsewhere on the net (and not to mention here), but what I never see being brought into focus is a lot of the underlying premises and logic patterns that overshadow them.
Whether it's the presentation of the series, the home release aspect ratio (it defies all comprehension why this part is even an argument for a late 80's-early 90's series), the soundtrack conventions (these are still predictably raging on throughout the net), the principles of one thing or the other, etc. There's a profound lack of perspective and reflection in a lot of these exchanges.

Also, it feels like fans of the original version have an uphill battle (which is understating it really), being that this relic has been all but acknowledged by Toei themselves in all their official media, games, etc. It's to the point where people get flak for using original names, even today. How does anyone even stand against that?
For me, I'm massively late to all of this, but I certainly remember the confusion of finding more than one different version of the series. I wasn't able to put it in proper perspective before, but it basically means having to view everything all over again. There's not that many series out there where this would need to be done.
The topic seems to be one of those things that will just keep on resurfacing at some point or other. I recall it's done so a few times even before I came back on. And there always seems to be something that sets it off.

[kemuri07]

I think this discussion took an unnecessary turn towards elitism...
Clock my nationality, I was practically beaten into seeking out the OG out of necessity, and thank god for that, but people who grew up with the dub and still love it aren't any less of a DB fan than someone who only watches it in japanese.

As long as neither side disrespects the other, everything is just fine.
That goes for japanese purists, too.

Is it really elitism to point out they're different things?

I think that's perfectly fine and dandy. But there absolutely has been a strain of elitism and gatekeeping in this forum that goes beyond absolutely bemoans the funimation dub and talks down to anyone who happens to prefer the funimation dub.

Whether it's Kuririn or Krillin, it's all the same. Don't be jerks about it.

[nineko]

Whether it's Kuririn or Krillin, it's all the same. Don't be jerks about it.

Consider yourselves lucky, we got "Crili" here (in the anime; the manga was accurate, at least).

[Cure Dragon 255]

Whether it's Kuririn or Krillin, it's all the same. Don't be jerks about it.

Consider yourselves lucky, we got "Crili" here (in the anime; the manga was accurate, at least).

OMG LOL. Btw was the first dub more accurate?

[Majin Buu]

That's a take absolutely worthy of being called elitist. Funimation handled all of those things differently in their dub, but there's still writing, characters, themes, etc. in the dub that have and should be discussed. They won't be discussions relevant to the original manga/anime or stuff that builds off of those like Super, and I can understand that it's frustrating when dub fans don't know the difference. But, to say it's not even possible to discuss or analyze the dub as a piece of fiction is such a warped view of things that I struggle to see how it can come from anything other than some sort of elitist viewpoint.

That wasn't intended to be an elitist statement, but I can see how it came off that way.

My point wasn't that the dub can't be analyzed as a piece of fiction unto itself.

It was that the source material should be what's prioritized in these types of discussions because the dub took too many creative liberties with dialogue, characterization, etc.

[GhostEmperorX]

Whether it's Kuririn or Krillin, it's all the same. Don't be jerks about it.

This is another thing I just can't blame people for, with Toei approving approximations like the latter as the default across all present official media, then they're going to be the ones that lots of people around the world encounter, even if they haven't ever seen that old Funimation dub. Especially if they're dubtitles for subbed media.
And then it has the effect of making those who use the original names or otherwise more accurate approximations (particularly those rooted in series puns) look pedantic, eccentric, or otherwise weird to newcomers or other visitors who may not know. This is how far the Overton window has shifted for this series.

Personally I wonder if an accurate approximation guide exists somewhere.

It also applies to certain word pronunciations (Saiyan which is based on Yasai/やさい - Vegetable) where mistakes were made in that old dub which still persist to this day.
The time to fix a lot of these things was 30 years ago. The overall situation, as well as a not-insignificant number of people within the fanbase, is too far gone.

[Kunzait_83]

I never said that its the dub's fault that people obsess over kiddy bloody shonen, anime, I meant that Kunzait said that or at least implied it.

Not to speak for the guy, but from conversations I've had with him over the years (as well as simply re-reading his post from the other thread) I don't think that's what he's trying to say. To put this stuff in my own words:

There are two phenomena here:
1. people being mostly exposed to and interested in stuff that is created with the sensibilities of children in mind, even well into adulthood
2. Funimation & Saban's heavy revising of Dragon Ball Z

The heavily revised version of DBZ happened to cover the section of the story that treats "battle powers" like a super big deal, and that played on loop for a while on Toonami. So a lot of the English speaking fandom from that generation probably came out of it mistaken about how much importance battle powers were for the story itself. Not to mention, they didn't really have the chance to start at the beginning of the story, if they were watching Dragon Ball via what was airing on cable TV. This impacts the lenses that many people in the English speaking fandom use to engage with the material. See: the obsession with trying to convert "feats" into numerical scores and rankings, and the prevalence of people using these sorts of calculations as their primary vehicle for criticizing the writing of various works in the franchise.

The heavily revised version of DBZ aired on a children's block of a children's network. People who are mostly exposed to and interested in stuff made for kids probably saw the stuff they were exposed to and are interested in on children's networks. People who fixate on children's media would be fixating on children's media even if Dragon Ball never existed. But if DBZ was never heavily edited, it likely wouldn't have aired on said children's network, and thus people who were mostly exposed to stuff that aired on children's networks would have been way less likely to get into DBZ. Thus, the fandom would be proportionally less populated by people fixated on content made for children, and who examine media through the lenses of being fixated on content made for children. One result of this is that a lot of people in the fandom see Dragon Ball as a piece of media that is very influential to other stories made for children, like various Weekly Shonen Jump properties. And that's not incorrect, but it's only part of the picture, as Dragon Ball itself was heavily influenced by other stories not made for children, including a wealth of live action Chinese martial arts films. This obviously isn't to say that someone who isn't fixated on children's media would in turn automatically understand Dragon Ball's genre antecedents, just that they'd be in a much better position to know this.

One example where these two aspects kind of converge is when trying to discuss the differences, real or otherwise, between the story before Radtiz shows up, and the story after Raditz shows up. There's certainly a change in the production, as Toriyama has a new editor. But there are other changes that get emphasized only in the heavily revised version of DBZ. Z's musical score gets replaced, but DB's doesn't. Many may defend this, arguing that techno synth metal better fits a "sci-fi" series, while Kikuchi's score better fits the "fantasy martial arts" series. Embedded here is the suggestion that Dragon Ball Z is no longer a fantasy martial arts story, and is instead a "sci-fi action story". This assessment relies strongly on not being aware of the history of fantasy martial arts cinema, which includes things like flight, teleportation, and chi blasts. While not everyone who isn't fixated on media made for children will know this, someone who is fixated on media made for children is way more likely to not have seen fantasy martial arts movies from the 80's and earlier. This assessment also relies on not realizing how much science-fiction content was in Dragon Ball from the beginning, like hover cars and hoi poi capsules.

So, both phenomena do sort of intermingle here to make discussing Dragon Ball online in English speaking circles rather frustrating. But they are nonetheless different phenomena that are not necessarily causally linked. People would be fixating on children's media without DBZ being heavily revised by Funimation & Saban, but that heavily revised version was the way that a lot of people fixated on children's media got into it, and without that there'd be a lot less discussion of the work online that approaches the story from such a perspective.

Ordinarily I get very annoyed when people try and speak for me and put words in my mouth. Not the case here though, as this is both a completely accurate translation of my views and frankly its articulated here a lot better and more thoroughly than anything I would've attempted.

So thank you for saving me the trouble of clarifying this stuff. Basically yeah: what Zephyr said here.

As far as I know though, Kunzait has never squarely blamed Dragon Ball for the arrested development phenomena he frequently rants about. It’s a wider change in the culture that Dragon Ball is only a tiny prodrome of.

1000% correct.