Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Yuji]

Outside of the angels, who would have the highest fight IQ in the series? Is it really Goku?

[The Monkey King]

Outside of the angels, who would have the highest fight IQ in the series? Is it really Goku?

According to DBS SH Jiren is such an instinctively proficient fighter that he goes from SSJ Blue level to G.O.D tier

[Koitsukai]

Jiren seems to be the epithome of the martial artist. He knows when, what and how to do everything. Wastes no energy, can adjust his power accordingly, like he is working a radio dial, and IIRC he hits where it hurts, not just anywhere like Broly or Trunks might do. He is not just strong.

And Goku, of course, he outgamed fucking Jiren and is mastering the angel's technique in no time.
Geets also. He's always been deemed as a genius and lately his UE development has proven that notion right.

But I'm going with Jiren, he doesn't rely on transformations, just on his skills and muscles and that got him to hakaishin level.


Honorable mention for Roshi. On his own he managed to make his body do the fighting for him.

[HeroR]

Didn't Vegeta say Goku has a bad habit of holding back in his first fight with Black?

But Zamasu revealed to Goku that he killed him and used his body to slaughter his family, he even gloated about it. Zamasu made Goku even more angry and salty than Frieza. Goku tried to spare a defeated Frieza, while Goku went for the kill against a seemingly defeated Black.

It is OOC for Goku to hold back against Zamasu, the villain who killed him, stole his body, and used it to mercilessly slaughter his family. After Goku learned what Zamasu did, he was no longer holding back.

As to why he never used Kaioken against Black, it is easy to see why. Goku has learned one thing about Black, he knows that he always grows stronger from a massive beatdown. On top of this, Black can simply use Immortal Zamasu to tank Kaioken attacks for him and Kaioken lasts very short time.

SSB Kaioken was originally a very rare, life-risking move. Toei Anime even included an episode where Goku had problem with ki strain after using SSB Kaioken against Hit. ToP arc ruined this narrative by having Goku use Kaioken ever 10 minutes, but it is irrelevant to the original intention of the writers. SSB Kaioken was supposed to be a very extreme move, and the fact that Goku used it against Fused Zamasu is an outlier. It simply means that Zamasu was so almighty, so invincible, that Goku had to use his absolute most extreme move (and indeed Goku shattered his legs while using Kaioken against Zamasu).

ToP arc cheapened SSB Kaioken, it was not a cheap move at all in previous arcs. It was an extreme move.

The TOP didn’t cheapened Blue Kaioken no more that Goku nearly dying to Kaioken x4 in the Saiyan Saga to doing x10 with no issues in the next arc. Goku got better using Blue Kaioken since a year past between the end of the Champa Saga and USS since the Super Dragon Balls were active again. The reason he got sick after fighting Hit with it was because it wasn’t completed with a 90% failure rate.

Moving forward, and seeing just how strong the team has gotten since the ToP, even though T&T are now having everybody relatively equal to each other, even those left behind a long time ago, I'd like to see the best ningen out there vs the GoDs.

That's the next step really, they've faced other ningen from the multiverse(bar those 1st world universes), they have reached GoD level, so what would be the point of having another brawl with El Preecho and Gamisalas? they have put the multiverse to the test and we know they sit at the top of it. I think it's time to escalate it.
Either make a ToP without the fodder, and only include people above SSB level (a level still kinda low when villains now are going toe to toe with the Ultra forms), or have GoDs and ningen with GoD-like power face each other.
It could be a race kinda thing, GoDs vs ningen, or a universe thing, (Beerus and his guys, vs Champa and his guys, etc).

The left-out universes probably can squeeze a couple of GoD like fighters, too. If they don't, there's no point.

That would seem a natural progression. The issue as I see it is AT's penchant for moving goalposts. He will do whatever is best for the current story, but more importantly what is best for potential future stories.

This is why Beerus and Goku have only gotten further away from each other as Goku's power level rises, because once we reach the point he is actually a rival, it eliminates one of the throughlines of the entire series, which is the endless chase toward an impossible goal.

Imagine this tournament where not only Goku and Vegeta, but a multitude of other fighters who are historically foils are now fighting on equal terms (and should be beating) the beings AT has established as the most intimidating beings of each universe. Yes it would be cool in the moment. But you lose them as credible antagonists that represent the dangling carrot driving the main characters' ambitions and loom as an ultimate check and balance point.

This is not me explaining why your idea shouldn't happen. I think it's a cool idea. This is me hypothesizing that it won't happen. AT has always put story potential over logic and rational progression, and I doubt this will be any different.

You could argue there is a potential next benchmark/target point with the angels, but at the point the fighters are trying to compete with them, they will be striving to reach a power level where actual combat is nearly meaningless. And at its heart, DB is about people trying to beat the crap out of each other and always will be.

As strong as the fighters have gotten now, keeping them below the arbitrary GoD mark (which logically they surpassed multiple arcs ago) helps the series retain some suspense I think it would lose otherwise. Which is why as annoyed as I am at AT constantly moving the Beerus goalpost, I understand it.

Toriyama hasn’t moved Beerus’ power since he removed the 70% line from Battle of Gods. Those who were stated to be on Beerus’ level had remained such like Jiren and Broly. Why do you think Jiren is still referenced as a bench mark in Super Hero and Beerus freaked out seeing Broly. The only placed where Beerus’ power moved is in the manga because Toyo make people who should stomp Beerus with ease, only to say ‘well no, Beerus’ stronger’. This also including nerfing UI since he admitted to making it too strong when he fought Moro and then added UI Goku was weaker than Broly.

[The Monkey King]

This also including nerfing UI since he admitted to making it too strong when he fought Moro and then added UI Goku was weaker than Broly.

What interview is this? I'm genuinely curious

[QuakingStar]

This also including nerfing UI since he admitted to making it too strong when he fought Moro and then added UI Goku was weaker than Broly.

What interview is this? I'm genuinely curious

Yeah this is news to me. I'm sure if it's real Herms already translated it. Can somebody link the source to this?

[Hugo Boss]

This also including nerfing UI since he admitted to making it too strong when he fought Moro and then added UI Goku was weaker than Broly.

What interview is this? I'm genuinely curious

Yeah this is news to me. I'm sure if it's real Herms already translated it. Can somebody link the source to this?

He must be talking about this.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah, Beerus power has been very consistent in the anime now that I think about it.

It's only in the manga that he's a moving post thanks to Moro and Granolah.

[The Monkey King]

Yeah, Beerus power has been very consistent in the anime now that I think about it.

It's only in the manga that he's a moving post thanks to Moro and Granolah.

Nah Beerus' power level was inflated to hell once Goku unveiled SSJB Kaio-Ken x10

Only in the movie continuity is Beerus' power level rather consistent.

[QuakingStar]

What interview is this? I'm genuinely curious

Yeah this is news to me. I'm sure if it's real Herms already translated it. Can somebody link the source to this?

He must be talking about this.

Yeah that was pre-Gas/Black Frieza/Cell Max/Beast Gohan and it seems Broly wasn't supposed to be mentioned maybe due to the words used for him in the upcoming SH movie.

[Hugo Boss]

Yeah this is news to me. I'm sure if it's real Herms already translated it. Can somebody link the source to this?

He must be talking about this.

Yeah that was pre-Gas/Black Frieza/Cell Max/Beast Gohan and it seems Broly wasn't supposed to be mentioned maybe due to the words used for him in the upcoming SH movie.

Anyway, this conversation is an indirect reference to Moro being Goku’s toughest opponent before Granolah. Toyotaro and Uchida are basically listing the characters that Goku and Moro hadn’t surpassed, even with the level of ultra instinct Goku acquired in his battle against Moro. If Goku has surpassed Broly with the level of ultra instinct he acquired after fighting Granolah and Gas, that is still not addressed by anyone.

[HeroR]

Yeah, Beerus power has been very consistent in the anime now that I think about it.

It's only in the manga that he's a moving post thanks to Moro and Granolah.

Toyo is just really weird with his scaling and doesn’t think things through. Like Granolah, he became the strongest in the universe but he couldn’t become stronger than the gods via the Dragon Balls. Which was obviously meant to make sure Granolah couldn’t be stronger than Beerus (Whis isn’t a god, he’s an angel). The problem is, the Supreme Kai is also a god, so logically Granaloh shouldn’t have gotten stronger than Shin or even Old Kai. Or even the Grand Kai depending on where Granolah’s power was when he made the wish.

A lot of this would have been solved if he made a wish similar to Piccolo in Super Hero. Released all his latent power that he would have gotten in his long lifetime. That way, him scaling below Beerus , but way above Shin would make some sense. Also him being the strongest mortal doesn’t really explain why he knows a bunch of techniques like Haki and teleporting.

The Moro arc was really Toyo screwing up the power scaling of the manga and he knows that he messed up. He made Moro so powerful that it required UI perfected to beat him and even gave Moro UI that Goku fought evenly with before Moro imploded. This entire thing could have been avoided if Toyo had kept Moro as a weak, but crafty foe with game-breaking magic and lost to Vegeta Spirit Fission or some other technique that bypassed his magic. Instead, Toyo had to up the scale to make Moro such a threat that UI Signs got stomped even before he ate 73 and became Cell. Hence why he had to nerf UI and got 'well, Goku didn't really mastered it' and now it has stamina/accurate issues that was nowhere in sight when he fought Moro and now Goku needs to find his own UI that is another form of Signs which was called an incomplete stamina-consumer in the Moro arc, more-or-less indirectly stating that Meerus is weaker than Beerus since Moro+Meerus' power was only about even with UI Goku and that version of Moro would have been stomped by Beerus, and Broly is stronger than UI Goku despite everything pointing to the fact that shouldn't be the case. Even odder that Toyo walked back the Broly line since in the very next arc, Goku and Vegeta were called the strongest mortals before they fought Granolah. So, he’s all over the place with Broly.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah, Beerus power has been very consistent in the anime now that I think about it.

It's only in the manga that he's a moving post thanks to Moro and Granolah.

Toyo is just really weird with his scaling and doesn’t think things through. Like Granolah, he became the strongest in the universe but he couldn’t become stronger than the gods via the Dragon Balls. Which was obviously meant to make sure Granolah couldn’t be stronger than Beerus (Whis isn’t a god, he’s an angel). The problem is, the Supreme Kai is also a god, so logically Granaloh shouldn’t have gotten stronger than Shin or even Old Kai. Or even the Grand Kai depending on where Granolah’s power was when he made the wish.

A lot of this would have been solved if he made a wish similar to Piccolo in Super Hero. Released all his latent power that he would have gotten in his long lifetime. That way, him scaling below Beerus , but way above Shin would make some sense. Also him being the strongest mortal doesn’t really explain why he knows a bunch of techniques like Haki and teleporting.

The Moro arc was really Toyo screwing up the power scaling of the manga and he knows that he messed up. He made Moro so powerful that it required UI perfected to beat him and even gave Moro UI that Goku fought evenly with before Moro imploded. This entire thing could have been avoided if Toyo had kept Moro as a weak, but crafty foe with game-breaking magic and lost to Vegeta Spirit Fission or some other technique that bypassed his magic. Instead, Toyo had to up the scale to make Moro such a threat that UI Signs got stomped even before he ate 73 and became Cell. Hence why he had to nerf UI and got 'well, Goku didn't really mastered it' and now it has stamina/accurate issues that was nowhere in sight when he fought Moro and now Goku needs to find his own UI that is another form of Signs which was called an incomplete stamina-consumer in the Moro arc, more-or-less indirectly stating that Meerus is weaker than Beerus since Moro+Meerus' power was only about even with UI Goku and that version of Moro would have been stomped by Beerus, and Broly is stronger than UI Goku despite everything pointing to the fact that shouldn't be the case. Even odder that Toyo walked back the Broly line since in the very next arc, Goku and Vegeta were called the strongest mortals before they fought Granolah. So, he’s all over the place with Broly.

That wish condition of not being able to become stronger than the gods is really weird indeed. What if the one making the wish has potential to be stronger than Beerus? Too bad, I can't make that wish? Nonsense.

You are spot on with Ultra Instinct. It's the same shit in the Universe 6 and Zamasu arcs with Super Saiyan Blue. Toyotaro made the form too taxing on stamina but it completely conflicts with RoF since the form is suppose to outlast an already taxing transformation but it can't even fight at full power for more than a few seconds. How exactly did it outlast Golden Freeza?

It really is a blessing in disguise that the Super Anime hasn't come back. Toriyama should really do one more movie to end the Super era and then try something new after EoZ with hopefully a good writer by his side.

[HeroR]

That wish condition of not being able to become stronger than the gods is really weird indeed. What if the one making the wish has potential to be stronger than Beerus? Too bad, I can't make that wish? Nonsense.

You are spot on with Ultra Instinct. It's the same shit in the Universe 6 and Zamasu arcs with Super Saiyan Blue. Toyotaro made the form too taxing on stamina but it completely conflicts with RoF since the form is suppose to outlast an already taxing transformation but it can't even fight at full power for more than a few seconds. How exactly did it outlast Golden Freeza?

It really is a blessing in disguise that the Super Anime hasn't come back. Toriyama should really do one more movie to end the Super era and then try something new after EoZ with hopefully a good writer by his side.

Granolah shouldn't have gotten past Shin because of the conditions of the wish even if he had the potential to surpass a God of Creation. But I have noticed that Toyo pretends that Shin doesn't exist. How else do you explain his absence in the Moro arc along with Old Kai.

What's funny about SSB's stamina drain is that he got rid of losing 90% of your power condition as fast as possible and it's never mentioned it again. Not even to explain why did Rose have this issue despite Zamasu sucking in Goku's body.

To be honest, I don't get the hype for EOZ. It isn't like Toriyama is suddenly going to kill the cast off if Super goes past the manga. Also, a lot of the writing issues is primely on Toyo along with Toriyama and Toyo's editors not doing their job since they let him get away with such funky writing. If you look at Broly or Super Hero, while the writing isn't a masterpiece, it's better put together than anything Toyo writes. In fact, I will go as far as to say that overall, Super Hero writing-wise is some of Toriyama's best work since Jaco.

[Hugo Boss]

Just a quick reminder that angels are considered gods in Dragon Ball. It’s just a different type from the gods of destruction. So, Toronbo was talking about Beerus and Whis in his explanation. He wouldn’t be talking about Kaioshin since Tournament of Power established that he was too far apart to be considered a god level being. And Broly wasn’t factored in the wish because his full power was an one-time event and he can’t access that power willingly as well.

[nineko]

The common interpretation is that Granolah didn't become stronger than Shin per se, he became stronger than Goku and Vegeta, who happened to already be stronger than Shin. After all, Granolah also became stronger than Dende (aka Kami, a god) and many other lesser deities.

[HeroR]

Just a quick reminder that angels are considered gods in Dragon Ball. It’s just a different type from the gods of destruction. So, Toronbo was talking about Beerus and Whis in his explanation. He wouldn’t be talking about Kaioshin since Tournament of Power established that he was too far apart to be considered a god level being. And Broly wasn’t factored in the wish because his full power was an one-time event and he can’t access that power willingly as well.

That makes no sense since Shin is still a god and a natural born one to boot. Unlike Beerus who was most likely a mortal at one point like Goku and Vegeta, so he isn’t that different from Denda and Kami. If this was really about Beerus, the dragon could have easily said, “I can’t make stronger than the God of Destruction”.

Also, the Broly explanation reads like headcanon.

The common interpretation is that Granolah didn't become stronger than Shin per se, he became stronger than Goku and Vegeta, who happened to already be stronger than Shin. After all, Granolah also became stronger than Dende (aka Kami, a god) and many other lesser deities.

It shouldn’t matter. If he can’t be stronger than the gods per the wish, then Shin and Old Kai should have been included. I didn’t mentioned the other lower gods because he honestly shouldn’t surpassed them, but Shin and Old Kai are more obvious since they’re Gods of Creation and Beerus’ equal in station.

As I mentioned above, this could have been avoided if they just said God of Destruction. Still nonsense since why can’t you wish to be stronger than Beerus since he’s just a mortal appointed to god like Kami, but pass every other god in U7, but I digress.

[Koitsukai]

We don't know if Broly can or cannot access that power at will.
He only needs to get angry, it's not a secret technique or an angel's technique like UI, or fusion, or borrowed power, it's just... letting himself loose. Which apparently, he still can do easily, according to Goku in the manga retelling of SH, that's why they don't want to fight his ass, he'll go green and wreck the place.
Gets mad, goes green, seems pretty accessible to me. Until told otherwise, I'll believe he most definitely can turn green if he just lets go, and that shouldn't exlcude him from the wish.

[ZombieVito]

Granolah shouldn't have gotten past Shin because of the conditions of the wish even if he had the potential to surpass a God of Creation. But I have noticed that Toyo pretends that Shin doesn't exist. How else do you explain his absence in the Moro arc along with Old Kai.

What's funny about SSB's stamina drain is that he got rid of losing 90% of your power condition as fast as possible and it's never mentioned it again. Not even to explain why did Rose have this issue despite Zamasu sucking in Goku's body.

To be honest, I don't get the hype for EOZ. It isn't like Toriyama is suddenly going to kill the cast off if Super goes past the manga. Also, a lot of the writing issues is primely on Toyo along with Toriyama and Toyo's editors not doing their job since they let him get away with such funky writing. If you look at Broly or Super Hero, while the writing isn't a masterpiece, it's better put together than anything Toyo writes. In fact, I will go as far as to say that overall, Super Hero writing-wise is some of Toriyama's best work since Jaco.

Yeah, Goku Black doesn't have the stamina issue and that's bullshit.

You never know. Going past EoZ can make Toriyama a bit ballsy and do something crazy.

We don't know if Broly can or cannot access that power at will.
He only needs to get angry, it's not a secret technique or an angel's technique like UI, or fusion, or borrowed power, it's just... letting himself loose. Which apparently, he still can do easily, according to Goku in the manga retelling of SH, that's why they don't want to fight his ass, he'll go green and wreck the place.
Gets mad, goes green, seems pretty accessible to me. Until told otherwise, I'll believe he most definitely can turn green if he just lets go, and that shouldn't exlcude him from the wish.

Goku wouldn't have stopped the fight if Broly couldn't access his full power. He already can beat Ikari Broly with just SSB so he shouldn't be afraid of that.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, I've read comparisons to Gohan's case. But Gohan always had a mental blockage, that's why he always struggled with getting that power out, while Broly does not. He just lets himself go and bam: FP. They are actual opposites in that regard.
Wouldn't make sense for that form to not have been taken into account for the wish.