Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

The TOP didn’t cheapened Blue Kaioken no more that Goku nearly dying to Kaioken x4 in the Saiyan Saga to doing x10 with no issues in the next arc. Goku got better using Blue Kaioken since a year past between the end of the Champa Saga and USS since the Super Dragon Balls were active again. The reason he got sick after fighting Hit with it was because it wasn’t completed with a 90% failure rate.

That headcanon, there's no evidence Goku has been using SSB Kaioken off-screen between U6 and ToP arc. It's your headcanon that he was becoming better at using it between those arcs. In fact, in Anime-only episode, Goku had issues with his body due to the immense strain of SSB Kaioken. His use of SSB Kaioken against Fused Zamasu was stated to be "life-threatening move". Goku used it because he was out of options and was willing to sacrifice himself with life-threatening move to destroy Zamasu.

Then, in the ToP arc, he starts spamming SSB Kaioken x20, which is an even higher version of the life-threatening move he used against Fused Zamasu, which already pressured him so much that he couldn't move his legs afterward.

Yeah, Beerus power has been very consistent in the anime now that I think about it.

It's only in the manga that he's a moving post thanks to Moro and Granolah.

Toyo is just really weird with his scaling and doesn’t think things through. Like Granolah, he became the strongest in the universe but he couldn’t become stronger than the gods via the Dragon Balls. Which was obviously meant to make sure Granolah couldn’t be stronger than Beerus (Whis isn’t a god, he’s an angel). The problem is, the Supreme Kai is also a god, so logically Granaloh shouldn’t have gotten stronger than Shin or even Old Kai. Or even the Grand Kai depending on where Granolah’s power was when he made the wish.

Toyotaro already showed that he has no problem giving Supreme Kais more powers.

Grand Supreme Kai solo'd Moro when he sealed away his magic. His enormous power then comprised the majority of the energy that went into Spirit Bomb that destroyed Moro and it shocked even Vegeta himself.

Granolah is not stronger than the Gods and this is factual. The Supreme Kais are Gods and this is also factual. Ergo, Granolah is not stronger than the Supreme Kais.

Reminder that Uub, the one with the highest potential of all, the one who will be Goku's ultimate opponent, derives 99.999999% of his power and potential from a Supreme Kai.

[Hugo Boss]

Just a quick reminder that angels are considered gods in Dragon Ball. It’s just a different type from the gods of destruction. So, Toronbo was talking about Beerus and Whis in his explanation. He wouldn’t be talking about Kaioshin since Tournament of Power established that he was too far apart to be considered a god level being. And Broly wasn’t factored in the wish because his full power was an one-time event and he can’t access that power willingly as well.

That makes no sense since Shin is still a god and a natural born one to boot. Unlike Beerus who was most likely a mortal at one point like Goku and Vegeta, so he isn’t that different from Denda and Kami. If this was really about Beerus, the dragon could have easily said, “I can’t make stronger than the God of Destruction”.

Also, the Broly explanation reads like headcanon.

You are largely missing the point here. Dende and Kais are gods in the literal sense as well, but we are talking about power hierarchy here, gods with difficult to challenge strength, not only titles or birth conditions. God level in this context (Universe #7 gods who are stronger than Goku and Vegeta) means Beerus and Whis.

I’m not sure you can describe what I said about Broly as headcanon, since there is no evidence that Broly can willingly access his full power in his current status. In the movie he only made it because Goku, Vegeta and Freeza provided the right circumstances to allow him to be stronger and a Super Saiyan. If anything, headcanon is categorically claiming that he can do that on his own.

[ZombieVito]

Just a quick reminder that angels are considered gods in Dragon Ball. It’s just a different type from the gods of destruction. So, Toronbo was talking about Beerus and Whis in his explanation. He wouldn’t be talking about Kaioshin since Tournament of Power established that he was too far apart to be considered a god level being. And Broly wasn’t factored in the wish because his full power was an one-time event and he can’t access that power willingly as well.

That makes no sense since Shin is still a god and a natural born one to boot. Unlike Beerus who was most likely a mortal at one point like Goku and Vegeta, so he isn’t that different from Denda and Kami. If this was really about Beerus, the dragon could have easily said, “I can’t make stronger than the God of Destruction”.

Also, the Broly explanation reads like headcanon.

You are largely missing the point here. Dende and Kais are gods in the literal sense as well, but we are talking about power hierarchy here, gods with difficult to challenge strength, not only titles or birth conditions. God level in this context (Universe #7 gods who are stronger than Goku and Vegeta) means Beerus and Whis.

I’m not sure you can describe what I said about Broly as headcanon, since there is no evidence that Broly can willingly access his full power in his current status. In the movie he only made it because Goku, Vegeta and Freeza provided the right circumstances to allow him to be stronger and a Super Saiyan. If anything, headcanon is categorically claiming that he can do that on his own.

Goku wouldn't stop the fight in Super Hero if Broly couldn't access his full power. He already can beat Ikari Broly with just SSB without issue.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku wouldn't stop the fight in Super Hero if Broly couldn't access his full power.

Perhaps because it wouldn’t be a good idea to try it, huh? (Broly’s full power can challenge Beerus’) and they would be risking their training routine there for good if they don’t manage to calm him down. Anyway, this is not conclusive evidence to favor the idea that Broly can really do that on his own though, just that it was best to avoid unnecessary conflict. By the way, Goku is helping Broly with the basics. He isn’t a full-fledged warrior yet.

[HeroR]

The TOP didn’t cheapened Blue Kaioken no more that Goku nearly dying to Kaioken x4 in the Saiyan Saga to doing x10 with no issues in the next arc. Goku got better using Blue Kaioken since a year past between the end of the Champa Saga and USS since the Super Dragon Balls were active again. The reason he got sick after fighting Hit with it was because it wasn’t completed with a 90% failure rate.

That headcanon, there's no evidence Goku has been using SSB Kaioken off-screen between U6 and ToP arc. It's your headcanon that he was becoming better at using it between those arcs. In fact, in Anime-only episode, Goku had issues with his body due to the immense strain of SSB Kaioken. His use of SSB Kaioken against Fused Zamasu was stated to be "life-threatening move". Goku used it because he was out of options and was willing to sacrifice himself with life-threatening move to destroy Zamasu.

Then, in the ToP arc, he starts spamming SSB Kaioken x20, which is an even higher version of the life-threatening move he used against Fused Zamasu, which already pressured him so much that he couldn't move his legs afterward.

Yeah, Beerus power has been very consistent in the anime now that I think about it.

It's only in the manga that he's a moving post thanks to Moro and Granolah.

Toyo is just really weird with his scaling and doesn’t think things through. Like Granolah, he became the strongest in the universe but he couldn’t become stronger than the gods via the Dragon Balls. Which was obviously meant to make sure Granolah couldn’t be stronger than Beerus (Whis isn’t a god, he’s an angel). The problem is, the Supreme Kai is also a god, so logically Granaloh shouldn’t have gotten stronger than Shin or even Old Kai. Or even the Grand Kai depending on where Granolah’s power was when he made the wish.

Toyotaro already showed that he has no problem giving Supreme Kais more powers.

Grand Supreme Kai solo'd Moro when he sealed away his magic. His enormous power then comprised the majority of the energy that went into Spirit Bomb that destroyed Moro and it shocked even Vegeta himself.

Granolah is not stronger than the Gods and this is factual. The Supreme Kais are Gods and this is also factual. Ergo, Granolah is not stronger than the Supreme Kais.

Reminder that Uub, the one with the highest potential of all, the one who will be Goku's ultimate opponent, derives 99.999999% of his power and potential from a Supreme Kai.

How is it headcanon that Goku got better at Blue Kaioken? It was stated in the Champa Saga that it was incomplete, had a 90% failure rate, and it can kill or ruined Goku’s body. He then got sick in the aftermath because of how stressful the technique was. We also know the Future Trunks Saga happened not long after the Champa Saga because the Super Dragon Balls were still inactive and Gowasu treated the Tournament of Destroyers as a recent event when he watched it on Godtube. So why wouldn’t Goku get better using Blue Kaioken within a year when he did it in the past? The anime episode where he got sick happened a couple days later after the tournament and the Future Trunks Saga wasn’t that long afterwards.

Also, the ‘no evidence’ isn’t an argument. Because before he did it, we had no clue or evidence that Goku could combined Blue with Kaioken. That includes Vegeta who trained with Goku for three years, and Whis knew nothing of it meaning he never used ir when training with him for a year. Which means while Goku was developing the form, he never used it in practice, otherwise Vegeta would have known about it.

It should be noted, Blue-Kaioken was only stated to be a “life-threat move” in one TV summary for the upcoming episodes. It was never stated to be such in the actual episode or even the preview for Episode 66. And those summaries aren’t always accurate, with them being outright wrong several times during the USS. In the episode, Goku used Blue Kaioken with no ill effect despite breaking both of his arms and having a broken leg. We also have no clue what the multiplier was. Was it Kaioken x5, x10, x20, x150, we don’t know. It literally can be anything.

Goku didn’t spam Blue Kaioken until he fought Jiren and Kelfa. Also, how do you know it was higher when Goku nor guides gave a multiplier when he fought Fusion Zamasu. You can’t call me out for headcanon, when you’re using headcanon yourself.

The Supreme Kai soloing Moro only happened because of a technique. That is like saying Roshi’s master soloed King Piccolo.

Granaloh is way stronger than any god in U7 outside of Beerus. Using the Grand Supreme Kai is a non-factor since he lost almost all his power, couldn’t even seal Moro again, and even at his peak Granaloh would still be stronger since Granolah fought and beat UI, while a weaker UI stomped 73 Moro who vastly outmatched anything he was when he fought the Grand Supreme Kai.

“Reminder that Uub, the one with the highest potential of all, the one who will be Goku's ultimate opponent, derives 99.999999% of his power and potential from a Supreme Kai”

Now this is headcanon since the one with the highest potential is Gohan per Toriyama.

You are largely missing the point here. Dende and Kais are gods in the literal sense as well, but we are talking about power hierarchy here, gods with difficult to challenge strength, not only titles or birth conditions. God level in this context (Universe #7 gods who are stronger than Goku and Vegeta) means Beerus and Whis.

I’m not sure you can describe what I said about Broly as headcanon, since there is no evidence that Broly can willingly access his full power in his current status. In the movie he only made it because Goku, Vegeta and Freeza provided the right circumstances to allow him to be stronger and a Super Saiyan. If anything, headcanon is categorically claiming that he can do that on his own.

Power hierarchy is moot. The condition was “can’t make stronger than a god”. Power and god are not the same thing. Theirs is no such thing as ‘God level’, that’s a fan-term. For reference, when when Goku went Super Saiyan 2 against Zamasu in the anime, Gowasu called that power like a God of Destruction despite Beerus being able to one-shot that version of Goku.

Even using the manga, Beerus claimed SSB Vegeta at the beginning of USS could be a God of Destruction in another universe. While I never took this line literally since it’s more often than not used to downplay the others Gods of Destruction, it would imply that SSB is in the range of a God of Destruction. Broly is way stronger than that Vegeta even in Rage, so how did Granaloh pass him if this is about some vague ‘God-level’ and not a person being an actual god.

And yes, it’s headcanon because you also have no evidence that he can’t. Using the movie when they wouldn’t let Broly go all out makes little sense if he couldn’t at least go Super Saiyan since Goku was never afraid of Rage Broly.

[Goku9001]

Just a quick reminder that angels are considered gods in Dragon Ball. It’s just a different type from the gods of destruction. So, Toronbo was talking about Beerus and Whis in his explanation. He wouldn’t be talking about Kaioshin since Tournament of Power established that he was too far apart to be considered a god level being. And Broly wasn’t factored in the wish because his full power was an one-time event and he can’t access that power willingly as well.

That makes no sense since Shin is still a god and a natural born one to boot. Unlike Beerus who was most likely a mortal at one point like Goku and Vegeta, so he isn’t that different from Denda and Kami. If this was really about Beerus, the dragon could have easily said, “I can’t make stronger than the God of Destruction”.

Also, the Broly explanation reads like headcanon.

How does it make no sense? Granolah's wish likely works in the context of gods that are stronger than the strongest mortals. As such, Granolah would only surpass gods that are weaker than the strongest mortals.

[HeroR]

Just a quick reminder that angels are considered gods in Dragon Ball. It’s just a different type from the gods of destruction. So, Toronbo was talking about Beerus and Whis in his explanation. He wouldn’t be talking about Kaioshin since Tournament of Power established that he was too far apart to be considered a god level being. And Broly wasn’t factored in the wish because his full power was an one-time event and he can’t access that power willingly as well.

That makes no sense since Shin is still a god and a natural born one to boot. Unlike Beerus who was most likely a mortal at one point like Goku and Vegeta, so he isn’t that different from Denda and Kami. If this was really about Beerus, the dragon could have easily said, “I can’t make stronger than the God of Destruction”.

Also, the Broly explanation reads like headcanon.

How does it make no sense? Granolah's wish likely works in the context of gods that are stronger than the strongest mortals. As such, Granolah would only surpass gods that are weaker than the strongest mortals.

But why? A god is a god regardless of power. He shouldn’t have surpassed Shin just because other mortals did otherwise why even say, “I can’t make you stronger than the gods”.

[Goku9001]

That makes no sense since Shin is still a god and a natural born one to boot. Unlike Beerus who was most likely a mortal at one point like Goku and Vegeta, so he isn’t that different from Denda and Kami. If this was really about Beerus, the dragon could have easily said, “I can’t make stronger than the God of Destruction”.

Also, the Broly explanation reads like headcanon.

How does it make no sense? Granolah's wish likely works in the context of gods that are stronger than the strongest mortals. As such, Granolah would only surpass gods that are weaker than the strongest mortals.

But why? A god is a god regardless of power. He shouldn’t have surpassed Shin just because other mortals did otherwise why even say, “I can’t make you stronger than the gods”.

Because that would destroy the whole point behind the wish. The dragon explicitly asks Granolah if he wanted to become the most powerful lifeform apart from the gods. He would not be the most powerful lifeform if he was leagues below Goku and Vegeta.

I don't really see the issue here. There wasn't an issue when Moro claimed he finally obtained power surpassing the gods.

[Cipher]

How else do you explain his absence in the Moro arc along with Old Kai.

Luckily I don't have to, because Shin is in the Moro arc.

Re: Granolah and Toronbo: I think either you just have to roll with it for what it is--a brief gloss to explain why Granolah can't/won't shoot up past Beerus, or justify it by saying that Beerus' power was actually out of the scope of the power Toronbo could provide by condensing Granolah's lifespan. There was always that cap as well, and we see Gas hit it when Black Freeza shows up, with the rolling nature of his "#1" wish. Goku and Vegeta happened to be within range, but perhaps Beerus wasn't.

[Hugo Boss]

Power hierarchy is moot. The condition was “can’t make stronger than a god”. Power and god are not the same thing. Theirs is no such thing as ‘God level’, that’s a fan-term. For reference, when when Goku went Super Saiyan 2 against Zamasu in the anime, Gowasu called that power like a God of Destruction despite Beerus being able to one-shot that version of Goku.

Even using the manga, Beerus claimed SSB Vegeta at the beginning of USS could be a God of Destruction in another universe. While I never took this line literally since it’s more often than not used to downplay the others Gods of Destruction, it would imply that SSB is in the range of a God of Destruction. Broly is way stronger than that Vegeta even in Rage, so how did Granaloh pass him if this is about some vague ‘God-level’ and not a person being an actual god.

And yes, it’s headcanon because you also have no evidence that he can’t. Using the movie when they wouldn’t let Broly go all out makes little sense if he couldn’t at least go Super Saiyan since Goku was never afraid of Rage Broly.

Make at least a quick research before suggesting someone else is using “fan-terms/headcanon”…

Spoiler:

Q: What roles will characters such as Goku, Vegeta, and Freeza play?
Tatsuya Nagamine: Goku, Vegeta, and Freeza all have many highlight moments! Goku is already coming close to the level of the gods. Vegeta is furiously trying to catch up to him. And Freeza especially shows a lot of growth this time. He’s always been haughty and held himself in high regard, but since Beerus, Whis, and the Omni-King exist, he’s trying to work out how he can reach the top. Perhaps he’s plotting to increase his strength steadily, while harboring the ambition to take down the Omni-King someday. Or maybe he won’t be able to defy him, I’m not sure. Goku is the same as always, saying, “I wanna get stronger,” simple as that.

Of course, Nagamine is not saying that Goku is coming close to the level of Kaio or Kaioshin, because that wouldn’t make sense. Guess which gods he is talking about. But there is more…

Spoiler:

Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

Spoiler:

Iwan: Th… this fight is already on the level of the gods…
Beerus: He’s finally able to compete with Toppo’s strength after becoming god form.

These are just a few examples. Taking a line out of context and being overly pedantic about it will only complicate things. Otherwise you might ask why it was there in the first place. Beerus and Whis are just beyond the scope of the wish, and Toyotaro wanted to make that clear. It’s absolutely clear for me, at least.


About Broly, I don’t think I need to provide any evidence that he can’t. This request constitutes devil’s proof. This is not how burden of proof works. Broly hasn’t demonstrated that he can become a Super Saiyan on his own. The Rage form is his current limit until showed otherwise. It doesn’t matter if Goku is afraid of him or not. He is just being cautious, since he doesn’t know what could happen.

For instance, Goku also was capable of using Ultra Instinct when he got the right conditions, but wasn’t able to do it afterwards without replicating those same conditions. He needed to continue his training to freely access it again. Goku couldn’t freely access Super Saiyan after fighting Freeza as well.

[Koitsukai]

I don't find the comparison between Goku and Broly fair. SS needs anger and rage, Goku was never a guy with those emotions at hand, that's probably why he struggled with mastering SS. Sustaining that emotion as a SS seemed to be his main problem.
However, we never hear Vegeta struggling with that, so it would be a fair assumption to think a guy like Broly, that lets his emotions take over wouldn't have that problem either.
He's a sweet guy, like Goku, but stops being that guy and turns into a monster at the drop of a hat.
I mean, if the LSS loses his mind after already unlocking SS, and still cannot turn SS... then something must be off. He's built for power, so once the cork holding that power is out, there shouldn't be any more obstacles... I see it as a dam being broken, water will now go through easier.

I wouldn't downplay Goku and Vegeta being against Broly losing his mind. Even if his ikari form is now greater than before, the guys that fought Zombie Gas should be more than capable of defusing that threat before the planet they are standing on is in jeopardy.

Now, this is what the show has been implying so far, with the characterizations(victim of his emotions), with how SS works(not completely clear but also not the same for everybody), and with the interactions between the characters(afraid of a guy's power).
However, I totally see T&T coming up with Broly not being able to access that power, just to keep the status quo as is. But so far, it's completely logical to assume if Broly goes nuts, the SS form will eventually appear. At least, Goku and Vegeta are afraid of that.
He's a prodigy after all, I wouldn't expect him to be subject to the same rules as a regular saiyan.

[Hugo Boss]

The comparison with Goku is just to note that Goku, one of the greatest masters of ki, had trouble accessing Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct after first time experiences. Broly being far less experienced with ki control would naturally find more difficulty in replicating that feat. Besides, he doesn’t have the same emotional trigger (his father being killed in front of him). Rage could lead him as far as his wrathful form (the one with yellow eyes and green aura), like he showed in Super Hero. So far, nothing beyond.

I think Super Saiyan could still come up. Possible (given his prodigious nature) but not consistent scenario. Broly is basically a wild card at this point. Goku and Vegeta in Granolah arc are superior to him when you consider overall capabilities, Whis implies that much. But if Toyotaro and Uchida consider Broly stronger, there must be some individual condition to exempt him from the wish, like how happened with Freeza. Most likely is his inability to control himself when using more power.

[HeroR]

Because that would destroy the whole point behind the wish. The dragon explicitly asks Granolah if he wanted to become the most powerful lifeform apart from the gods. He would not be the most powerful lifeform if he was leagues below Goku and Vegeta.

I don't really see the issue here. There wasn't an issue when Moro claimed he finally obtained power surpassing the gods.

Not my problem. Toyo was the one who had the dragon said, "can't be stronger than the gods". If he just said, "I can't make you stronger than the God of Destruction", then people on here wouldn't have to headcanon how it was okay for him to surpass Shin, a naturally born god, while Beerus is a mortal appointed god like Kami and Dende. And why would the wish even have that conditions when you have beings like Broly, a pure mortal with no God Ki, able to rival if not surpass Beerus.

As for Moro: he's an egoistical SOB just like every other villain in Dragon Ball, he certainly didn't surpassed the gods since according to Toyo Beerus was stomped him, and finally surpassing the gods is vague term regardless when you have anime Gowasu saying that Super Saiyan 2 Goku in the Future Trunks Saga was like a God of Destruction and Beerus in the manga claiming SSB Vegeta at the beginning of USS could be a God of Destruction in another universe.

Luckily I don't have to, because Shin is in the Moro arc.

Re: Granolah and Toronbo: I think either you just have to roll with it for what it is--a brief gloss to explain why Granolah can't/won't shoot up past Beerus, or justify it by saying that Beerus' power was actually out of the scope of the power Toronbo could provide by condensing Granolah's lifespan. There was always that cap as well, and we see Gas hit it when Black Freeza shows up, with the rolling nature of his "#1" wish. Goku and Vegeta happened to be within range, but perhaps Beerus wasn't.

Unless it was in a bonus chapter, when I read Moro there was nothing from Shin nor Old Kai as Moro ate through his universe like a bag of chips and his mentor coming back. Even odder, there was no mentioned of Beerus once again sucking at his job when the Super manga claimed he should have killed Majin Buu. But it has been awhile since I read Moro, so maybe I missed Shin.

The issue with the Dragon Ball wish and how it's an example of Toyo's sloppy writing. If he just wrote "can't be stronger than the God of Destruction" or Granaloh worded his wish like Piccolo in Super Hero, people wouldn't have to find loopholes as to why the wish didn't include Shin.

Make at least a quick research before suggesting someone else is using “fan-terms/headcanon”…

Spoiler:

Q: What roles will characters such as Goku, Vegeta, and Freeza play?
Tatsuya Nagamine: Goku, Vegeta, and Freeza all have many highlight moments! Goku is already coming close to the level of the gods. Vegeta is furiously trying to catch up to him. And Freeza especially shows a lot of growth this time. He’s always been haughty and held himself in high regard, but since Beerus, Whis, and the Omni-King exist, he’s trying to work out how he can reach the top. Perhaps he’s plotting to increase his strength steadily, while harboring the ambition to take down the Omni-King someday. Or maybe he won’t be able to defy him, I’m not sure. Goku is the same as always, saying, “I wanna get stronger,” simple as that.

Of course, Nagamine is not saying that Goku is coming close to the level of Kaio or Kaioshin, because that wouldn’t make sense. Guess which gods he is talking about. But there is more…

Spoiler:

Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

Spoiler:

Iwan: Th… this fight is already on the level of the gods…
Beerus: He’s finally able to compete with Toppo’s strength after becoming god form.

These are just a few examples. Taking a line out of context and being overly pedantic about it will only complicate things. Otherwise you might ask why it was there in the first place. Beerus and Whis are just beyond the scope of the wish, and Toyotaro wanted to make that clear. It’s absolutely clear for me, at least.


About Broly, I don’t think I need to provide any evidence that he can’t. This request constitutes devil’s proof. This is not how burden of proof works. Broly hasn’t demonstrated that he can become a Super Saiyan on his own. The Rage form is his current limit until showed otherwise. It doesn’t matter if Goku is afraid of him or not. He is just being cautious, since he doesn’t know what could happen.

For instance, Goku also was capable of using Ultra Instinct when he got the right conditions, but wasn’t able to do it afterwards without replicating those same conditions. He needed to continue his training to freely access it again. Goku couldn’t freely access Super Saiyan after fighting Freeza as well.

"Make at least a quick research before suggesting someone else is using “fan-terms/headcanon”…"

Nice try, but I am aware of that interview. And for the record, I have literally read all the interviews regarding Super. So there is nothing you can post that I haven't seen.

And even funnier, going by the conditions of that wish, Granolah shouldn't have gotten stronger than Broly movie Goku, so how did Granalah did if the conditions was "I can't make you stronger than a god". Even better question, if Goku and Vegeta were stronger than Beerus when the wish was made, would that have still made him weaker than Beerus because he can't surpassed the gods. Which brings the question why? If a normal mortal like Broly can surpassed Beerus, why is this even a condition to begin with.

And since you decided to used Toppo, Toppo is called a God of Destruction, and SSBE Vegeta Final Explosion him out of the ring and punched out his Hakai. If the dragon can't make Granalah surpassed the gods, how did he become stronger than TOP Vegeta if that Vegeta could beat a God of Destruction. Hence why I said 'god-level' is a fan-term. What fans and even Toyo really means is "Beerus' level", because we have seen characters be compared to the Gods of Destruction and still weaker than Beerus.

As for Broly, it isn't obvious at all since if Broly couldn't go at least Super Saiyan, no one would be afraid of him since SSB Goku can handled Rage. Using UI isn't the best example because we're outright told Goku can't access it willing, while you're making an assumption on Broly.

[Thani]

To be fair, in relation to the wish, Toronbo only stated that it was beyond his power to make Granolah the strongest in the universe, even if not counting the gods themselves.... BUT what he COULD do was try to grant that wish by burning through 99% of his lifespan, taking all the possibilities he could have had and turning into power and wisdom to as much as his own wish-granting power would allow him. Then, there was no mention of the gods at all, since it was Granolah's own potential that was proppeling him up in the power hierarchy.

That said, it was a dumb wording altogether, I agree. It feels like sometimes Toyo and Tori remember that people like Dende, King Kai, King Yenma and the Kaioshin are all supposed to be gods and sometimes it seems they think only the Gods of Destruction and above are considered gods.

About Granolah and Moro, I at least "like" that Vegeta put all of those enemies in the same "our current general level", as they should have been. Jiren is the technical fighter who can punch way beyond his supposed "power level" by being that damn good, Broly being the war machine, Moro matching them but pulling ahead because he can always absorb their life energy and Gas/Granolah having all of their tricks because of the wish. It then leaves Freeza, who is also supposed to be on that level, but was shown to one-shot Gas with his Black form and then one-shot both Goku and Vegeta. It could have been a case of Rule of Cool or of Worf had the Flu, since Toyo went out of his way to say he wasn't actually stronger in raw power. Oh well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[HeroR]

To be fair, in relation to the wish, Toronbo only stated that it was beyond his power to make Granolah the strongest in the universe, even if not counting the gods themselves.... BUT what he COULD do was try to grant that wish by burning through 99% of his lifespan, taking all the possibilities he could have had and turning into power and wisdom to as much as his own wish-granting power would allow him. Then, there was no mention of the gods at all, since it was Granolah's own potential that was proppeling him up in the power hierarchy.

That said, it was a dumb wording altogether, I agree. It feels like sometimes Toyo and Tori remember that people like Dende, King Kai, King Yenma and the Kaioshin are all supposed to be gods and sometimes it seems they think only the Gods of Destruction and above are considered gods.

About Granolah and Moro, I at least "like" that Vegeta put all of those enemies in the same "our current general level", as they should have been. Jiren is the technical fighter who can punch way beyond his supposed "power level" by being that damn good, Broly being the war machine, Moro matching them but pulling ahead because he can always absorb their life energy and Gas/Granolah having all of their tricks because of the wish. It then leaves Freeza, who is also supposed to be on that level, but was shown to one-shot Gas with his Black form and then one-shot both Goku and Vegeta. It could have been a case of Rule of Cool or of Worf had the Flu, since Toyo went out of his way to say he wasn't actually stronger in raw power. Oh well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I took the time to read the manga. This is what it says in the Viz translation:

"Greatest Warrior in the universe? So you wish to become the most powerful life-form apart from the Gods themselves?"

So even before the conditions were laid, the dragon outright said Granolah can only be the strongest life-form outside of the gods, which would include Shin and even the lower Kais. Goku and Vegeta being able to benchpresses Shin is moot. They got their power through their own hard work and if given time, they can surpassed Beerus. Even ignoring them, we have Broly who is said to rival Beerus with barely any real training. So why is Beerus the hard-cap?

Now, Toyo tries to give himself an out with this:

"It is possible for you to become stronger than you already are, but I cannot increase your power beyond your latent potential."

Which sounds fine, burn out almost your entire lifespan and get all the power you have gotten now. It's pretty similar to Piccolo's wish in Super Hero, even if it's more extreme. Which means.....what was the point of even having the dragon say, "the most powerful life-form apart from the Gods themselves?". Toyo could have left that out and the readers would assumed that Granolah had it within him to become stronger than current Goku and Vegeta, but still weaker than Beerus. By putting 'the gods themselves", it really doesn't matter what Granolah's potential was, he shouldn't have gotten past Shin to say the least. Because if Granolah had the potential by burning most of his life to surpassed Beerus like Broly or Jiren, the dragon should have been able to make him that strong. Super Hero make this even worse since it's possible to easy-baked oven someone to Beerus' level looking at Cell Max.

This entire line solely exist so Toyo can say, "Granolah isn't stronger than Beerus", but then it ran into a bunch of other issues because Toyo doesn't think things through when he writes.

[Cipher]

This is off-topic from strength discussion, but Kaioshin appears in the final chapter of the Moro arc, having appealed on Merus’ behalf to the Grand Priest.

[Hugo Boss]

"Make at least a quick research before suggesting someone else is using “fan-terms/headcanon”…"

Nice try, but I am aware of that interview. And for the record, I have literally read all the interviews regarding Super. So there is nothing you can post that I haven't seen.

And even funnier, going by the conditions of that wish, Granolah shouldn't have gotten stronger than Broly movie Goku, so how did Granalah did if the conditions was "I can't make you stronger than a god". Even better question, if Goku and Vegeta were stronger than Beerus when the wish was made, would that have still made him weaker than Beerus because he can't surpassed the gods. Which brings the question why? If a normal mortal like Broly can surpassed Beerus, why is this even a condition to begin with.

And since you decided to used Toppo, Toppo is called a God of Destruction, and SSBE Vegeta Final Explosion him out of the ring and punched out his Hakai. If the dragon can't make Granalah surpassed the gods, how did he become stronger than TOP Vegeta if that Vegeta could beat a God of Destruction. Hence why I said 'god-level' is a fan-term. What fans and even Toyo really means is "Beerus' level", because we have seen characters be compared to the Gods of Destruction and still weaker than Beerus.

As for Broly, it isn't obvious at all since if Broly couldn't go at least Super Saiyan, no one would be afraid of him since SSB Goku can handled Rage. Using UI isn't the best example because we're outright told Goku can't access it willing, while you're making an assumption on Broly.

Good that you have read everything. But you sounded like you never saw the god level we are talking about being used before in Super official content. You may not agree with the power range that is being conveyed on the explanation and I agree it’s debatable, but labeling it as fan-term is incorrect.

Most likely Nagamine is talking about ultra instinct (the technique of the gods) when he says Goku is approaching the gods. He mentions ultra instinct in the interview and how Freeza is planning to overthrow the Omni-king. Also, when Goku manages to use ultra instinct properly against Moro, Beerus says he is fighting like a god. The thing is, if Goku had surpassed Beerus’ threshold and Granolah could become stronger than him, naturally the bottomline would switch to the next god above, Whis. If Whis were surpassed then Great Priest and so on, whoever has overwhelming presence between them. I don’t see any issues with it. But for now, it’s safe to assume Toronbo is talking about Beerus and Whis because they are the pair of strongest gods in charge of Universe #7, he has nothing to say about other universes’ gods.

Anyway, this Broly debate is senseless because he is being put in high regard despite of those implications about being not as strong as Goku and Vegeta in Moro arc. Something must be up.

[Miracles]

Why would Granolah not be stronger than Shin, King Kai, Karin etc after the strongest wish when Goku and Vegeta surpassed all of them especially Shin in the Buu saga? In context Toronbo it's clear that he'd be weaker apart from the gods who were not surpassed [Beerus/Whis].

Why wouldn't the wish count Broly when he is indeed in universe 7? Freeza was only exempted from being subject to Toronbo's wish because he was out of the universe. Now people saying Broly doesn't count is making up rules for the titan Saiyan.

[HeroR]

Good that you have read everything. But you sounded like you never saw the god level we are talking about being used before in Super official content. You may not agree with the power range that is being conveyed on the explanation and I agree it’s debatable, but labeling it as fan-term is incorrect.

Most likely Nagamine is talking about ultra instinct (the technique of the gods) when he says Goku is approaching the gods. He mentions ultra instinct in the interview and how Freeza is planning to overthrow the Omni-king. Also, when Goku manages to use ultra instinct properly against Moro, Beerus says he is fighting like a god. The thing is, if Goku had surpassed Beerus’ threshold and Granolah could become stronger than him, naturally the bottomline would switch to the next god above, Whis. If Whis were surpassed then Great Priest and so on, whoever has overwhelming presence between them. I don’t see any issues with it. But for now, it’s safe to assume Toronbo is talking about Beerus and Whis because they are the pair of strongest gods in charge of Universe #7, he has nothing to say about other universes’ gods.

Anyway, this Broly debate is senseless because he is being put in high regard despite of those implications about being not as strong as Goku and Vegeta in Moro arc. Something must be up.

In 'Super official content', god-level is a vague term. It has been used to described Battle of Gods' Super Saiyan God Goku, Super Saiyan 2 Goku from the Future Trunks Saga, SSB Vegeta before the TOP in the manga, SSBE Vegeta when he fought Toppo, and Dragon Ball Super Broly to describe Post-USS Goku. The way the fandom used 'God-level' just means 'Beerus' level'. Which is why I called it a fan-term, because that is what you guys really mean while Super will changed what 'god-level' is depending on what they're hyping. Unless you really believed Gowasu when he called Super Saiyan 2 Goku's power on the level of a God of Destruction.

"Most likely Nagamine is talking about ultra instinct (the technique of the gods)"

Honestly, you really shouldn't assume anything because UI wasn't even mentioned in the movie not even in a throwaway or a clip like Jiren was and the movie was being scripted even before the TOP. To assume he meant UI is like debating if Toriyama was thinking of UI Goku or Blue Goku when he said Piccolo was on Goku's level. Or when he said Gohan was stronger than anyone was he considering the Super manga.

Also, if he was talking about UI, all material for UI has it beyond the gods, not just on the level of them or approaching the gods. In all media, UI was on par with Jiren who is continuously stated even now to be just as strong if not stronger than the Gods of Destruction. And before someone say it, him only being stronger than Belmond was only in the manga. I checked every material related to Jiren and not one of them outside of the manga relates Jiren's power to just Belmond.

"Also, when Goku manages to use ultra instinct properly against Moro,"

While true, that wouldn't have anything to do with Nagamine. Or even Super Hero since we don't even know if the movie used any manga lore. Chances are, it doesn't since the Super manga is doing its own version of Super Hero.

"The thing is, if Goku had surpassed Beerus’ threshold and Granolah could become stronger than him"

But you haven't answered is why. Using quotes from the manga this is what the dragon said:

"It is possible for you to become stronger than you already are, but I cannot increase your power beyond your latent potential."

So if Granolah had the potential to surpassed Beerus by releasing all his latent potential in exchanged for most of his life, why is the wish limited to the "most powerful life-form apart from the Gods themselves"? Especially since he had the potential to leapfrog over beings confirmed to be stronger than Gods of Destruction like Jiren since Goku should have surpassed that version of Jiren since manga Jiren was only about even with TOP UI Goku who's at least stronger than Belmond. So it's okay to surpassed that level of God of Destruction, but Beerus is off-limits.

"naturally the bottomline would switch to the next god above, Whis."

But why? Why is the Gods supposedly off-limits, but you can still be stronger than a god if some random mortal happened to be stronger than a god. What is even the point of limiting to the gods if it really doesn't matter as long as some random dude can smoke Beerus.

"If Whis were surpassed then Great Priest and so on"

I have to call BS because Toyo gave himself an out in the next panel after he introduced the god condition. Namely, Granalah could only get as strong as his maximal lifetime wish his full latent potential. Basically, Gohan's Ultimate form +100 years of training. So Granaloh could never be as strong as Whis unless he had the latent potential to reached that level in his lifetime according to the dragon. So the whole idea that Granalah would have been closed to Whis if Goku happened to be stronger than Beerus isn't what Toyo wrote.

This is off-topic from strength discussion, but Kaioshin appears in the final chapter of the Moro arc, having appealed on Merus’ behalf to the Grand Priest.

So he didn't do anything about Moro, even contact Goku and the others, or appear when he saw his old mentor again who was absorbed by Buu, but he appeared in the last chapter for Meerus? Yeah, going to keep my comments to myself on this one.

[Hugo Boss]

Why wouldn't the wish count Broly when he is indeed in universe 7? Freeza was only exempted from being subject to Toronbo's wish because he was out of the universe. Now people saying Broly doesn't count is making up rules for the titan Saiyan.

Of course Broly counts, but only as much as he is capable of by the time the wish was made, which was even below Goku and Vegeta. The thing is Broly can’t be weaker and stronger than Granolah at the same time. Goku wouldn’t ask if there was someone stronger than him out there if he knew Broly was superior back then. Now in Super Hero, Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Granolah and for some reason Broly is implied to be stronger than them.

In 'Super official content', god-level is a vague term. It has been used to described Battle of Gods' Super Saiyan God Goku, Super Saiyan 2 Goku from the Future Trunks Saga, SSB Vegeta before the TOP in the manga, SSBE Vegeta when he fought Toppo, and Dragon Ball Super Broly to describe Post-USS Goku.

SS2 was never implied to be on the level of the gods. The first Super Saiyan stage to enter that realm is SSG, unless you are talking about the infamous Saiyan Beyond God state that appeared in Ressurrection of Freeza. Not sure what you mean by USS.

The way the fandom used 'God-level' just means 'Beerus' level'. Which is why I called it a fan-term, because that is what you guys really mean while Super will changed what 'god-level' is depending on what they're hyping. Unless you really believed Gowasu when he called Super Saiyan 2 Goku's power on the level of a God of Destruction.

I don’t know with whom you are talking about, but so far god-level in Super is not restricted to Beerus’ level. It’s a wide range starting with SSG and ending with the Omni-king. This is the realm of power that was firstly introduced in Battle of Gods (hence the word “god” being used in the film title and in the transformation). Gowasu obviously had no clue about what happened between Beerus and Goku. There is nothing to infer from his claim.

"Most likely Nagamine is talking about ultra instinct (the technique of the gods)"

Honestly, you really shouldn't assume anything because UI wasn't even mentioned in the movie not even in a throwaway or a clip like Jiren was and the movie was being scripted even before the TOP. To assume he meant UI is like debating if Toriyama was thinking of UI Goku or Blue Goku when he said Piccolo was on Goku's level. Or when he said Gohan was stronger than anyone was he considering the Super manga.

“Goku broke past his limits and evolved to Ultra Instinct, so we should follow suit and have the look evolve as well.” Besides, the way Nagamine compares Goku, Vegeta and Freeza suggests he thinks Goku is stronger than Vegeta, and Freeza is aiming to surpass the gods. So, it’s very easy to figure out what evolution he is talking about when he says Goku is approaching the gods. It’s all coming together. There is no reason to think he is talking about Blue since Vegeta already caught up that form.

Also, if he was talking about UI, all material for UI has it beyond the gods, not just on the level of them or approaching the gods. In all media, UI was on par with Jiren who is continuously stated even now to be just as strong if not stronger than the Gods of Destruction. And before someone say it, him only being stronger than Belmond was only in the manga. I checked every material related to Jiren and not one of them outside of the manga relates Jiren's power to just Belmond.

This is not a consensus in all of them. I had seen it called “state of the gods”, “technique of the gods”. So, technically it would be beyond gods of destruction in the anime, but not beyond angels.

"Also, when Goku manages to use ultra instinct properly against Moro,"

While true, that wouldn't have anything to do with Nagamine. Or even Super Hero since we don't even know if the movie used any manga lore. Chances are, it doesn't since the Super manga is doing its own version of Super Hero.

Nagamine seems to be well aware of Freeza’s ambitions and he described Freeza’s steady increase in strength well in advance, something that wasn’t included in the Broly movie. Dragon Room is there exactly for that, to make further developments work with each other. Most likely he had access to the story drafts beforehand. Super Hero manga adaptation is following suit with the film with minor differences as well.

"The thing is, if Goku had surpassed Beerus’ threshold and Granolah could become stronger than him"

But you haven't answered is why. Using quotes from the manga this is what the dragon said:

"It is possible for you to become stronger than you already are, but I cannot increase your power beyond your latent potential."

So if Granolah had the potential to surpassed Beerus by releasing all his latent potential in exchanged for most of his life, why is the wish limited to the "most powerful life-form apart from the Gods themselves"? Especially since he had the potential to leapfrog over beings confirmed to be stronger than Gods of Destruction like Jiren since Goku should have surpassed that version of Jiren since manga Jiren was only about even with TOP UI Goku who's at least stronger than Belmond. So it's okay to surpassed that level of God of Destruction, but Beerus is off-limits.

I don’t see why this question matters, because the dragon has no say about gods other than Beerus and Whis. There is no problem with assuming that Granolah has surpassed other gods of destruction either. If anything this only reinforces that Beerus and Quitela are far stronger than Vermoud.

"naturally the bottomline would switch to the next god above, Whis."

But why? Why is the Gods supposedly off-limits, but you can still be stronger than a god if some random mortal happened to be stronger than a god. What is even the point of limiting to the gods if it really doesn't matter as long as some random dude can smoke Beerus.

The power hierarchy of the gods is pretty vast. If god-level is the roof, then you must only figure out by subtext which type of god is being referred. There is always a god or a bunch of them stronger than Goku, even if he someday he manages to surpass Beerus.

"If Whis were surpassed then Great Priest and so on"

I have to call BS because Toyo gave himself an out in the next panel after he introduced the god condition. Namely, Granalah could only get as strong as his maximal lifetime wish his full latent potential. Basically, Gohan's Ultimate form +100 years of training. So Granaloh could never be as strong as Whis unless he had the latent potential to reached that level in his lifetime according to the dragon. So the whole idea that Granalah would have been closed to Whis if Goku happened to be stronger than Beerus isn't what Toyo wrote.

I’m absolutely fine with how Toyotaro wrote that scene. I frankly don’t need him to be more specific because subtext is a thing, my friend. The moment Granolah made the wish Goku was #1 in the universe, but Toyotaro and Uchida themselves gave a non-exhaustive list of people that are stronger than Goku, including non-gods like Broly, who curiously should count but somehow didn’t (or he did? Who knows) Of course, this tidbit won’t add up for everyone but for me is very basic writing level.