Do you like Super?

[PurestEvil]

It is very hit or miss, but not in an extraordinary way.

The films are by far the best part of this era, with the anime and manga feeling a bit middling to me

[super michael]

If anyone mentions Goten and Trunks battling Beerus was childish, newsflash everyone attacked Beerus. Heck even Bulma attacked Beerus.
Lets not forget Boo caused the problem in BOG.

Gotenks gave a good explanation why Beerus reason for wanting to attack everyone and destroy the earth for pudding was a bad one.


Vegeta let Cell get his perfect form by letting him go and protect him by attacking anyone that wanted him dead be it allies/family.
Vegeta was the reason why Boo got resurrected, by getting possessed and forcing Goku to fight by killing innocent people. Vegeta was willing to kill more.

Kid Buu was able to destroy the earth, thanks to Vegeta destroying the Potara and refusing to do the Fusion Dance.



Then in DBS Vegeta continues to destroy the ROSAT, just so no one can train but nothing happens.




See there is no valid reason to forbid Goten and Trunks from training and battling, when others are more childish and does worse decisions. DBS is just bad writing.



Edit in DBZ Bulma goes to a battle field with a baby, which she needed saving.

In ROF Bulma was acting childish to Freeza, which luckily didn't anger him.



So there is no defence in how Goten and Trunks was treated in DBS.

[MCDaveG]

I'd say that Kid Buu pretty much surprised both Goku and Vegeta at that moment, as he wasn't your classic snarky villain that you can argue with and basically went right to the bussiness and destroyed Earth right away. I must hand it over to him.

But outside of that, Vegeta being complete idiot in Cell arc because the ego got the best of him and again in Buu arc, being the reason why Buu got out in the first place.
In contrast to Gotenks here, we might argue that bringing Vegeta into mortal combat is probably a bigger gamble than leaving it on the kids.

As stated by many reasons we gave here, leaving Goten and Trunks out of the story in Super is definitely bad or lazy writing.
While TOP is quite enjoyable on it's own, the overall design is bleak and makes the locale feel empty again and most of the cannon fodder from different universes is just there. It might be more enjoyable, to check what is going on elsewhere with the rest of the cast, as watching the whole arc in one go makes it kinda boring outside of the important parts and heavily rushed at the end.
I am happy we've got the movie expansions and besides the Gods Of Destruction, I am thinking sometimes of what's the point of the series inbetween, but I will definitely give it a fresh rewatch after I'll finish Z, as I have only saw it once during the original run and read through the manga, which I found more enjoyable visual and idea wise.

[super michael]

I'd say that Kid Buu pretty much surprised both Goku and Vegeta at that moment, as he wasn't your classic snarky villain that you can argue with and basically went right to the bussiness and destroyed Earth right away. I must hand it over to him.

But outside of that, Vegeta being complete idiot in Cell arc because the ego got the best of him and again in Buu arc, being the reason why Buu got out in the first place.
In contrast to Gotenks here, we might argue that bringing Vegeta into mortal combat is probably a bigger gamble than leaving it on the kids.

As stated by many reasons we gave here, leaving Goten and Trunks out of the story in Super is definitely bad or lazy writing.
While TOP is quite enjoyable on it's own, the overall design is bleak and makes the locale feel empty again and most of the cannon fodder from different universes is just there. It might be more enjoyable, to check what is going on elsewhere with the rest of the cast, as watching the whole arc in one go makes it kinda boring outside of the important parts and heavily rushed at the end.
I am happy we've got the movie expansions and besides the Gods Of Destruction, I am thinking sometimes of what's the point of the series inbetween, but I will definitely give it a fresh rewatch after I'll finish Z, as I have only saw it once during the original run and read through the manga, which I found more enjoyable visual and idea wise.

Yes exactly Vegeta was a huge risk and they don't see any problem in him training with the best and fighting enemies, even when he was willing attack his own allies and even kill them. Even destroying the ROSAT multiple times nothing happens.
Bulma even went to a battle field with a baby in DBZ, talk about huge risk there. Then in ROF again trying to make Freeza get angry.

Boo the same falling asleep, failing test and making Beerus angry. He messed around in the Exhibition, until Mr Satan got angry, but he was given chances.

It is like Toei had something against Goten and Trunks. The worst part is when fans tries to make excuse for why they can't train, fight or fight villains, just to defend DBS Anime.

[ChronoTwigger]

What was DBS?

-Hello, Sensei. You know, we have a limited budget and a free timeslot. Can you work on something?-
-Busy with DragonQuest.-
-BoG did good enough, so why not a new Dragon Ball serie?-
-Oh, maybe, why not. I still have some idea about Goku and Uub.-
-Weeeellll, Sensei, we tried for and it got mixed reactions. Why not a prequel, something just after Buu?-
-Yeeeeah, maybe it can be done. Think of Goku fighting a pantheon of chinese kung fu Gods. 150 episodes should work for it.-
-Ehr, Sensei, the timeslot. It's kid show. Our new policies are all against real conflicts. Goku should be even a bit more likeable to smaller kids. Also, how to spell it... we don't actually know how much the thing will actually run, so why not smaller, self contained arcs?-
-... Wait a moment. This is that horrible s**t of OnePiece! You want for me to come with Dragon Ball Piece? For real?-
-Practically so. Now, some other rule. Kids loved for Goku to transform. So we think a new transform should be added each arc. Ah, they also love Vegeta. Make it more relevant.-
-I've thought make Gohan relevant again.-
-Our market research shown that kids doesn't love to play the role of sons and daughters of other friends. So Gohan, Trunks, Goten... let's assume tey do their own thing and goodbye, ok?-
-Sorry, but I dunno if I can write something along those lines.-
-Ahahaha, no worry. You'll write just the subjects, we'll expand on our own. Stay safe and healthy. Anyway, just sign or no Dragon Ball. We can just call for a new Macross or Gundam.-
-Mmmmh. Ok, I'll sign. I'll send you the manga pages thru my...-
-Ahahaha, no no, we found an artist to draw things for you.-
-And we discuss about it when?-
-Oh oh oh, how fun you are Sensei. We created the Dragon Ball Room, where we decide how to move onward with the franchise. You don't have to mind a thing. Just tweet your subjects.-
-Sigh. Ok, if that's the only way to proceed.-
(Toriyama, watching the blank page:)
-Ok. A evil God appear. Oh, no, he can't be evil. It's just a tsundere God. He'll destroy the Earth... no, too heavy on kids. He'll switch Earth with another polluted Earth. Take this, Greta! Obviously in the end both Earths will be verdant.-
(Toriyama, watching the page:)
-WTF! This is not Dragon Ball. Where tension is? Where humor is? Where adventure is? I'm practically forced to write Sailormoon!-

And that summarize what DBS is to me. A product indirectly made by the CEOs of a zaibatsu, that decided sticking the DB logo on top of a *Tokyo Myu Myu* arc was good enough to sell s**t.
Tragicly, it was.

Ideally, it was a waste. Practically, it pushed back the franchise writing quality to the level of the worst GT episode. Keeping the profluence from Z, it could have been the better anime ever. By rewinding, it's an average show with a lot of low moments.

I was about a 6 on 10. After Granolah, definitely a 4 on 10 (but GT to me was a 3 on 10).

[Toxin45]

What was DBS?

-Hello, Sensei. You know, we have a limited budget and a free timeslot. Can you work on something?-
-Busy with DragonQuest.-
-BoG did good enough, so why not a new Dragon Ball serie?-
-Oh, maybe, why not. I still have some idea about Goku and Uub.-
-Weeeellll, Sensei, we tried for and it got mixed reactions. Why not a prequel, something just after Buu?-
-Yeeeeah, maybe it can be done. Think of Goku fighting a pantheon of chinese kung fu Gods. 150 episodes should work for it.-
-Ehr, Sensei, the timeslot. It's kid show. Our new policies are all against real conflicts. Goku should be even a bit more likeable to smaller kids. Also, how to spell it... we don't actually know how much the thing will actually run, so why not smaller, self contained arcs?-
-... Wait a moment. This is that horrible s**t of OnePiece! You want for me to come with Dragon Ball Piece? For real?-
-Practically so. Now, some other rule. Kids loved for Goku to transform. So we think a new transform should be added each arc. Ah, they also love Vegeta. Make it more relevant.-
-I've thought make Gohan relevant again.-
-Our market research shown that kids doesn't love to play the role of sons and daughters of other friends. So Gohan, Trunks, Goten... let's assume tey do their own thing and goodbye, ok?-
-Sorry, but I dunno if I can write something along those lines.-
-Ahahaha, no worry. You'll write just the subjects, we'll expand on our own. Stay safe and healthy. Anyway, just sign or no Dragon Ball. We can just call for a new Macross or Gundam.-
-Mmmmh. Ok, I'll sign. I'll send you the manga pages thru my...-
-Ahahaha, no no, we found an artist to draw things for you.-
-And we discuss about it when?-
-Oh oh oh, how fun you are Sensei. We created the Dragon Ball Room, where we decide how to move onward with the franchise. You don't have to mind a thing. Just tweet your subjects.-
-Sigh. Ok, if that's the only way to proceed.-
(Toriyama, watching the blank page:)
-Ok. A evil God appear. Oh, no, he can't be evil. It's just a tsundere God. He'll destroy the Earth... no, too heavy on kids. He'll switch Earth with another polluted Earth. Take this, Greta! Obviously in the end both Earths will be verdant.-
(Toriyama, watching the page:)
-WTF! This is not Dragon Ball. Where tension is? Where humor is? Where adventure is? I'm practically forced to write Sailormoon!-

And that summarize what DBS is to me. A product indirectly made by the CEOs of a zaibatsu, that decided sticking the DB logo on top of a *Tokyo Myu Myu* arc was good enough to sell s**t.
Tragicly, it was.

Ideally, it was a waste. Practically, it pushed back the franchise writing quality to the level of the worst GT episode. Keeping the profluence from Z, it could have been the better anime ever. By rewinding, it's an average show with a lot of low moments.

I was about a 6 on 10. After Granolah, definitely a 4 on 10 (but GT to me was a 3 on 10).

wow your take is lame it is alright i mean the manga is on superhero arc that will be over soon and we will make it past the end of z

[Lord Beerus]

I really like quite a few bits and pieces of each medium of it, but as a whole, I feel Super leaves a lot to be desired, narratively and aesthetically.

I can't shake the feeling that if you were to take the best of the anime, the best of the manga, and the best of movies, and combine them together into a cohesive and coherent product, you would get one hell of a story.

As it is, I think the best way to get the most consistent enjoyment out of Super is to watch certain episodes of the anime, certain chapters of the manga, and specific sections of both movies. And having to navigate through different mediums at different intervals of what is meant to be one cohesive product is really not the best way to engage in any narrative.

[Skar]

It is like Toei had something against Goten and Trunks. The worst part is when fans tries to make excuse for why they can't train, fight or fight villains, just to defend DBS Anime.

I don't think Toei could be blamed if it was mostly Toriyama's decision. Toei had them go SSJ3 in the anime once. They only used SSJ against Beerus in BoG and I remember fans assuming it was because they started slacking off after the Buu saga. In Super Hero, they failed the fusion so even rustier than they were in BoG. It's at least consistent with their characterization in EoZ instead of a temporary arc that wouldn't really matter once the story reaches the end.

[ChronoTwigger]

wow your take is lame it is alright i mean the manga is on superhero arc that will be over soon and we will make it past the end of z

Yeah! That exactly what will happen!
... not a Black Frieza arc. Just no no. And they shown you the will and intent to go after EoZ since the start.

Your dreams are not arguments.

[MCDaveG]

As much as I look forward to the manga getting more and more close to the EOZ, I wonder where it will go with Black Freeza and if that even happens. Having him just show up to one shot everyone and make him the neverending looming threat will be in line with some of TOEI's never fullfiled promises and hints in their original anime story outings, but will feel weird. But if that means Goku and Vegeta getting another rudiculous manga forms just to go toe to toe with Black Freeza and another arc that will be just mindless action figure fighting without anything much exciting like Granola arc was, I'd rather have that left as a cliffhanger of sorts.

[Skar]

wow your take is lame it is alright i mean the manga is on superhero arc that will be over soon and we will make it past the end of z

Yeah! That exactly what will happen!
... not a Black Frieza arc. Just no no. And they shown you the will and intent to go after EoZ since the start.

Your dreams are not arguments.

It's been almost ten years of fans saying "maybe next arc will be after EoZ". It's not a surprise for anyone believing what Toriyama said at the beginning. He could always change his mind but it's better to wait for confirmation rather than assuming he will after every arc.

[MCDaveG]

Personally, I'd still take Super with Toriyama's involvement being stuck in the already overcrowded ten year gap than TOEI trying anything original again or going out of their way with some weird spin off, involving original cast.
There is a GT for that

But I do understand fans wishing for something completely fresh and moving away from the milked up and beaten to death Z era and going beyond with something like GT but curated by Toriyama.

All these forms and power ups in anime and especially manga, kinda do not align more and more with the EOZ narrative and feeling of 10 peaceful years after... It's like the Star Wars canon limited itself with that there was 1000 years of peace without conflicts but enter the Nihil.

[Toxin45]

wow your take is lame it is alright i mean the manga is on superhero arc that will be over soon and we will make it past the end of z

Yeah! That exactly what will happen!
... not a Black Frieza arc. Just no no. And they shown you the will and intent to go after EoZ since the start.

Your dreams are not arguments.

who said dreams?
It was just a theroy

[Jord]

wow your take is lame it is alright i mean the manga is on superhero arc that will be over soon and we will make it past the end of z

Yeah! That exactly what will happen!
... not a Black Frieza arc. Just no no. And they shown you the will and intent to go after EoZ since the start.

Your dreams are not arguments.

who said dreams?
It was just a theroy

How did they show the will and intent to go past EoZ during the start?

[super michael]

wow your take is lame it is alright i mean the manga is on superhero arc that will be over soon and we will make it past the end of z

Yeah! That exactly what will happen!
... not a Black Frieza arc. Just no no. And they shown you the will and intent to go after EoZ since the start.

Your dreams are not arguments.

It's been almost ten years of fans saying "maybe next arc will be after EoZ". It's not a surprise for anyone believing what Toriyama said at the beginning. He could always change his mind but it's better to wait for confirmation rather than assuming he will after every arc.

In DBZ Toriyama didn't care about the humans, but that didn't stop Toei from adding filler so they did things. The humans were always allowed to fight and train, even if it was filler.

Ginyu forces Vs Humans = filler
Yamcha training in gravity chamber = filler
Kuririn Vs Cell = filler
Humans in otherworld with Kaio and Yamcha Vs Olibu = filler

In DBS Toei only had Goten and Trunks appear, just so everyone said no or to go away. That was their only purpose to not be allowed to do anything, that was the only reason they appeared. The other purpose was to keep secrets and giving them 0 chance.
Toei did make Goten and Trunks appear and even mention them, but in a bad way which fans wouldn't like at all.

They only got lazy in EOZ, before that it was unknown.
Gohan got lazy in the Buu Saga, but he trains and battles in DBS. Same with the humans after the Cell Game who they retire.

[Dbzfan94]

I like some things from it, and I met some really close friends thanks to it, but overall not really. Narratively,, visually, just in general.

[anubisj]

Dragon Ball Super is, was and will always be a forgettable, horrid dumpster, in my opinion. It is the first time in my life that some new content from a franchise I love and care about a lot, makes me lose a lot of interest in said franchise. For those who don't know me (aka everyone here), I'm a very passionate person, I can spend hours just analyzing minor details of a single anime filler scene (for me filler is the same as canon content, I make no distinction); usually when something new gets released in a movie/book/series/anime/game franchise I love, I either love it, which enhances my love for the franchise, like it despite not considering it on par with previous content, which enhances my love for the franchise, or if I hate it I just disregard it, as most people should do...but Super actually managed to leave such a bitter taste in my mouth, it forced me to take a time off the whole franchise, and annihilated my will to write huge walls of texts about the one anime I love above all (but I'll try doing that now).

Things I liked about the movies and anime:

Hit, Jiren, premise of tournament of power, addition of other universes and Gods, concept of ssj god, zamasu, ultra instinct, animation and battles of certain stuff (broly movie for example).

Things I despised (not didn't like, but actually despise): The creativity of the series, sometimes, is akin to a barren wasteland, like I can't believe they couldn't think of something better at times; Akira Toriyama has made many wrong and uninspired creative decisions, and nobody has or could say anything to stop him.

They rehash everything they possibly can out of the original run, and I'm not talking about "androids attacking earth again" or "yet again an alien that comes to conquer the planet, another fusion" no, I'm talking about same exact scenes being used again (Piccolo sacrificing for Gohan in exact same pose xD), Vegetto again wearing the same costume again, Freeza again being a villain, Broly but he is not Broly, he is Toriyama's Broly now, ssjs are now recolors, same as new villain forms (golden frieza, blue ssj, whats next, orange Piccolo?? Red Cell?? Oh wait...), it's just so absurd and done so poorly you can almost smell the unoriginality, you can almost taste the salt being poured onto the dead, cold slopes of the writers' creativeness landscape, the whole settlement of ideas just nuked. And by writers I mean mostly Toriyama and some of Toei's finest; I refused to believe they can't hire more competent, fresh minds.

The above is what hurts me the most, but I still haven't mentioned Yamcha suddenly not being able to fight some frieza soldiers, Master Roshi getting selected as a multiuniverse contestant because now for some reason he's on par with Super Goku base form, Mai becoming Future Trunks lover (completely disregarding her previous, established character and personality; apparently, all it takes is to be hot and have "sellable-toys-design" to secure a relationship with one of Earth's mightiest hero), I mean come on guys, Mai was never like that, it's like they reused the design for a new character...which is not common in Super, since everybody acts the same albeit with more random, illogical decisions (and no, making Gohan retire again to make him like combat again to make him retire again to make him fight again is NOT character development, just like making Vegeta Beerus' midget is not good, organical character development);

Not to mention the retcons just for the kicks (Beerus had King Vegeta be his sex slave, I mean, at this point Saiyans were lower in the Maslow pyramid than the damned babarians, they were supposed to be strong and fierce, having King Vegeta buy a "pillow" for Beerus is just off the mark in so many ways; potara fusion being metamorian fusion with earrings now, 'cause why not); speaking of missing the mark, Bulma wishing for bigger boobs is just vomit-inducing; these are the same guys who then add new, female-power characters who reek of political correctness and forced-inclusivity from a mile, instead of being added because of the story or the script. I'm sorry guys, but the teletubbie/skinny saiyan/shy girl who turns into powerful shebroly just screams "girls can be powerful too! lets make characters that school girls will like and buy toys off!" so much, and I'm the first that enjoys a powerful female character (android 18 is the best thing ever), but this is just the wrong way to go about it, especially the abominable teletubbie who was also a popstar or something, that was so anti-dragon ball I couldn't even believe it, not just the concept but the design, the way she was portrayed....and then they also proceeded to add some overdone, awful jokes about Roshi wanting to touch Yuri's ass.

They don't care about inclusion or making interesting, compelling characters and stories, they just care about profit, and yes, I'm aware that "every company" aims for that, but there's limits; my father is a writer, and I know a bit about the creative world, and when someone writes something, they gota add at least a bit of their souls in there, this was just soulless for the most part.

I was so excited for the Zamasu story, but then it turned out it was again Future Trunks (poor guy can't catch a break) and some weird shenanigans ( people just going to and from the future like they're going shopping, fighting the bad guy and then resting and coming back, felt really weird and badly handled), and was so excited for the tournament of power, but then saw what they qualified as the best fighters of an entire universe, and 90% of them were disposable trash, i mean really? I understand that they can't and don't have the time/resources to make a proper roster of, say, 75% of them being interesting and really powerful, but then why go forward with the idea? (Only redeeming thing, which I repeat to myself, is that the universes only had like some hours to find a team, so they went hastily and didn't actually select the best available).

And the movies, even though they are nicely animated etc (I don't care about CGI or whatever), were based on either the same characters we know already (or "canonized" versions of them, a concept which I despise), or had dull designs (I mean, the Gammas aren't the worst of Super, but jeez, for being new villains of a new movie in like years, they didn't leave a good impression on me, I actually prefer the designs of most of the "lackeys" of the big villains in the dbz movies)

In conclusion, it was a disaster, and nothing animated they release that has the Super logo has yet to make me change my mind (I always get excited and subsequently depressed when I actually watch it). It doesn't help that it is made exclusively for kids and pre-teens (I still remember the gore and blood of the original anime trilogy )

The manga, on the other hand, has some interesting and new ideas, but hasn't yet reached the potential I would like (I would need to see it animated), but I'll say the idea of adding Yamcha to the Z fighters roster is nice, Moro is a bit interesting (certainly a unique design, but I don't think it can compare to DBZ level of designs, still), and yeah, he did some stuff like King Piccolo did in his day, so it was a rehash in a way, but, as I said before, not an "IN YOUR FACE" rehash, like, the character was completely new, he just had an evil plan that was similar to a previous villain, I'll take that any day before "yellow" king piccolo or "canon" white janemba; the granolah saga had some interesting ideas as well, more than the Moro saga, and Muezli's design (Granolah's mother) is one of the best designs for a Dragon Ball character I've seen ever, I just wished she was more kick-ass and had more stuff to do. Black Frieza was uninspired (Toyo didn't have the balls/wasn't allowed to design a new form) and certain things didn't make sense, so it was far from a great continuation of the story (he needs to improve the script), but at least Toyo tried new things (a few) and I think the manga in general has some potential. I just want to know what the next arc is (but I want to make it clear, I'm still wary of the manga, it wouldn't surprise me if the next arc is a joke).

[SupremeKai25]

Yes. I think that many of the ideas in Super are very original and unique (like Zamasu being a Supreme Kai gone rogue, Moro being a sorcerer, Jiren and Broly being antagonists rather than full-blown villains, Frieza being protagonist in the ToP arc, Tournament of Power being battle royale of 80 fighters instead of traditional tournament, with 1v1 matches, and so on). I also think that much of the criticism of Super is vastly overrated and overblown, especially the bad art and retcons criticism. DBZ also has ugly and atrocious art in certain frames, even during main fights (while all the main fights of Super from U6 arc onward all have serviceable art at worst), and DBZ also has plenty of egregious retcons, like Cell surviving his head/core's destruction or the Vegito retcon where he defused inside of Majin Buu's body despite Old Kai stating that he was permanent. Super didn't just expand the setting with 12 new universes and new God hierarchy, it also fixed past retcons; like in this case, where Gowasu reveals that Old Kai was wrong and Potara fusion has time limit on mortals, which finally fixed that Buu saga Vegito retcon.

So not only I love Super's concepts and ideas (and if GT gets pass for "good ideas, bad execution", why shouldn't Super do too?), I also think that much of the criticism against Super is either overblown and/or can easily be turned against DBZ.

[kemuri07]

It actually makes Super worse if an anime from 2018 suffers from the same issues from an anime from 1992. It's not an excuse. Super premiered during a post FMA: Brotherhood/Hunter X Hunter (2011) world where the expectations of consistency is normalized. So Super's animation gaffs looks even worse in comparison. To be like But DBZ had its problem's too ignores the context that DBZ was an anime that started in 1989 and that the context for anime back then is entirely different than how anime is made in the 2010s.

Since I've been on this site, if there's been a huge trigger for me, it's this tendency for supposed "fans" to shit on the legacy of DB/DBZ in order to prop up a mediocre title like Super: DBZ needs to be bad in order to make Dragon Ball Super's own issues not seem that terrible by comparison. But it is. Because despite the problems that DBZ certainly has, especially those that cause a lot of the issues that I have with Super, warts and all DBZ is still a masterpiece of an anime. There's a reason why DBZ was highly influential, and that we keep seeing homages in a variety of other anime. It's Akira Toriyama operating at the heights of his powers as both an artist and a storyteller. Dragon Ball Super? Not even close. While Super might contain some of the same issues that do in fact come up in DBZ, it's far worse for it because it doesn't have the same level of quality that Z does.

[nineko]

I *want* to like Super, but they're neglecting it too much

The anime might not even resume at all at this point, and the manga went from a boring arc (Granolah) to a retelling (Super Hero), it's hard to be optimistic with these premises.