Do you like Super?

[Grimlock]

and/or can easily be turned against DBZ.

What you fail to realize, though, is that by doing that, it shows you're desperate and desperately trying to find something, anything to make a point. You forget that there's a gap of twenty years between Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball Super. I won't be here saying how crap Dragon Ball is for having three tournaments, it's an 80s series, it is decades over. There's absolutely no point for me to judge it nowadays. There would be a point if Dragon Ball was being released today, and trust me, I'd be shitting all over it if it were doing the exact same things it did back in the 80s (especially with the whole Muten Roshi bullshit).

I don't think you read all the times I said that just because something was okay, or just because something (used to) happen before, it doesn't mean it's still okay for those things to continue happening today. Look at the calendar, it's 21st century, year 2023. Not 20th century, years 1980s and 1990s. For today's standards, Dragon Ball Super is subpar, it is mediocre at best (I highly doubt Dragon Ball would survive if it was being released today or at least garner popularity the way it did). Dragon Ball Super did manage to be successful but only because of nostalgia and name alone. Not because of merits.
And you can't hide behind "it's a child's series, so of course it is simple" because there are a lot of series proving that just because it's "for kids" doesn't mean you shouldn't put something resembling "effort" into it. You talk about animation but I continue to see cartoons far more beautiful to look at than Dragon Ball Super. The art may (?) have improved in later sagas, but it is still ugly when compared to its contemporaneous (just take a look at Dragon Quest, One Piece and etc). If you really care about animation, you shouldn't settle for the quality you saw in Universe Survival saga, you should be demanding for better production value.

Yes, a lot of criticism applied to Dragon Ball Super can be applied to past Dragon Ball, but the real question is: why would you do that? Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are not modern series, they have their flaws but bringing them up today will not absolve Dragon Ball Super of anything. Will not help anything. Also, looking at past mistakes is not an excuse to continue making those mistakes. So what's the point?

[ZombieVito]

Yes, very much so. I even prefer it to Z.

I'm talking about the anime of course. The Super manga is irredeemable trash that ranks even lower than GT to me.

[SupremeKai25]

and/or can easily be turned against DBZ.

What you fail to realize, though, is that by doing that, it shows you're desperate and desperately trying to find something, anything to make a point. You forget that there's a gap of twenty years between Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball Super. I won't be here saying how crap Dragon Ball is for having three tournaments, it's an 80s series, it is decades over. There's absolutely no point for me to judge it nowadays. There would be a point if Dragon Ball was being released today, and trust me, I'd be shitting all over it if it were doing the exact same things it did back in the 80s (especially with the whole Muten Roshi bullshit).

DBS only has two tournament arcs, one of which is one of the most unique ideas in all of anime by having battle royale between 80 fighters.

All other storylines from DBS are not tournaments.

On top of this, DBS uses tournaments to expand its world-building. These tournaments are not made just for fun and games, they are made to introduce the top fighters from the other universes and flesh them out. So actually tournaments are extremely important in Super because they are a means for the writers to involve the fighters from other universes.

You talk about animation but I continue to see cartoons far more beautiful to look at than Dragon Ball Super.

And how many of those cartoons were streamed for huge crowds in city squares like ep. 130/131? How many of those cartoons broke streaming sites like the Ultra Instinct special did?

The art may (?) have improved in later sagas, but it is still ugly when compared to its contemporaneous (just take a look at Dragon Quest, One Piece and etc). If you really care about animation, you shouldn't settle for the quality you saw in Universe Survival saga, you should be demanding for better production value.

You mention One Piece even though it's easily the most controversial anime when it comes to art. I have read plenty of people being turned off due to the art and I have read many people laughing at (not with) the new Luffy form and comparing it to looney tunes (not a compliment). So this wasn't the best example to bring up at all. When I look at OP characters, I can't help but laugh at how silly and ugly they look. A reaction that I would obvious never have when looking at Zamasu, Jiren, Moro, Kefla, and the other main fighters of Super.

[Grimlock]

DBS only has two tournament arcs, one of which is one of the most unique ideas in all of anime by having battle royale between 80 fighters.

Two tournament sagas out of three sagas in total. As for "unique ideas", read again VegettoEX's and my posts in this thread.

On top of this, DBS uses tournaments to expand its world-building. These tournaments are not made just for fun and games, they are made to introduce the top fighters from the other universes and flesh them out.

You can do that without being stuck in a tournament. Can you pinpoint exactly what has been expanded? Surely it can't be the new characters and techniques, because all of them could've come from Universe 7. The Multiverse in Dragon Ball hasn't been used to introduce anything that couldn't have come from the Universe we're already used to. What characters were "fleshed out"? What do we know about them? How much do we know about them? Did the time spend with the new characters warrant any investment by the viewers?

So actually tournaments are extremely important in Super because they are a means for the writers to involve the fighters from other universes.

Dragon Ball Heroes did that without a tournament.

And how many of those cartoons were streamed for huge crowds in city squares like ep. 130/131? How many of those cartoons broke streaming sites like the Ultra Instinct special did?

What does this have to do with anything?

I have read plenty of people being turned off due to the art and I have read many people laughing at (not with) the new Luffy form and comparing it to looney tunes (not a compliment). So this wasn't the best example to bring up at all. When I look at OP characters, I can't help but laugh at how silly and ugly they look.

You can say that Eiichiro Oda's artstyle is ugly and still find the recent episodes being very well done and good to look at. Dragon Ball Minus is one of the ugliest pieces of work by Toriyama, yet it was beautifully drawn in Dragon Ball Super Broly.

Toyotaro has a bad artstyle but I think if Dragon Ball Super ever comes back and adapt his sagas, it will look far better than the manga (that is, if Dragon Ball Super is given a proper pre-production time, of course...). So yes, One Piece is a good example, because you're confusing two different aspects. Yes, it's the animators' job to try to emulate the creator's artstyle, but given enough production value, even what you think is bad can become good. And if anyone says that these recent One Piece episodes look ugly, then they clearly don't know shit about what they're talking about.

[super michael]

I really doubt DB/DBZ would get cancelled if it got released today, they are great anime and manga.
DBS Anime didn't get cancelled by Master Roshi action. Heck Goku supporting Master Roshi bad action, didn't get it cancelled. To make it worse he didn't even face any consequence or anyone attacking him.

Saying it is for children as a way to defend bad writing is not a good reason at all.

DBS anime just for the sake of humour, they didn't care if that ruins the character. They didn't care about the fans at all. They didn't care about good writing and good comedy.


Upa and Puar Vs the Vampire is combat and comedy done right in DB. Unlike DBS which they think forbidding characters over and over is funny, which it isn't.

Power scaling and training method for anyone outside Goku, and Vegeta was awful in DBS.


Edit other anime has blood, violence, gore, etc, while DBS anime lacks those things. Even anime on the same day as DBS.

[SupremeKai25]

DBS only has two tournament arcs, one of which is one of the most unique ideas in all of anime by having battle royale between 80 fighters.

Two tournament sagas out of three sagas in total. As for "unique ideas", read again VegettoEX's and my posts in this thread.

Conveniently you ignored the manga arcs.

You can do that without being stuck in a tournament. Can you pinpoint exactly what has been expanded? Surely it can't be the new characters and techniques, because all of them could've come from Universe 7. The Multiverse in Dragon Ball hasn't been used to introduce anything that couldn't have come from the Universe we're already used to. What characters were "fleshed out"? What do we know about them? How much do we know about them? Did the time spend with the new characters warrant any investment by the viewers?

No, those characters couldn't have been from U7, otherwise Frieza would not have been able to rule as Emperor of the Universe for decades with Hit or the Pride Troopers around. Clearly these new characters could not come from U7.

Dragon Ball Heroes did that without a tournament.

The writers of Super chose to do that through a tournament, so this is a "mistake" because?

What does this have to do with anything?

Clearly Super did not need to be like these "beautiful cartoons" to be a huge cultural phenomenon that was live-streamed in front of many crowds in city squares.

So I should find it impressive that there are cartoons that are more beautiful than Super? That's great, but now let's see if they have the popularity that Super had.

You can say that Eiichiro Oda's artstyle is ugly and still find the recent episodes being very well done and good to look at. Dragon Ball Minus is one of the ugliest pieces of work by Toriyama, yet it was beautifully drawn in Dragon Ball Super Broly.

Toyotaro has a bad artstyle but I think if Dragon Ball Super ever comes back and adapt his sagas, it will look far better than the manga (that is, if Dragon Ball Super is given a proper pre-production time, of course...). So yes, One Piece is a good example, because you're confusing two different aspects. Yes, it's the animators' job to try to emulate the creator's artstyle, but given enough production value, even what you think is bad can become good. And if anyone says that these recent One Piece episodes look ugly, then they clearly don't know shit about what they're talking about.

Imagine, Toei was not even given enough production value to make Super, and yet they still made beautiful and beloved episodes like Goku vs. Hit, Vegito vs. Zamasu, Goku vs. Jiren, and Goku vs. Kefla, which are pretty much universally praised for their visuals.

So imagine if Toei had been given proper production value for Super, imagine indeed.

[Civic]

Yes, very much so. I even prefer it to Z.

I'm talking about the anime of course. The Super manga is irredeemable trash that ranks even lower than GT to me.

It's nice to see a comment that isn't incredibly angry about DBS existing. What makes you like it more than Z?

[Skar]

What you fail to realize, though, is that by doing that, it shows you're desperate and desperately trying to find something, anything to make a point. You forget that there's a gap of twenty years between Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball Super. I won't be here saying how crap Dragon Ball is for having three tournaments, it's an 80s series, it is decades over. There's absolutely no point for me to judge it nowadays. There would be a point if Dragon Ball was being released today, and trust me, I'd be shitting all over it if it were doing the exact same things it did back in the 80s (especially with the whole Muten Roshi bullshit).

I think every average revival or sequel has someone shitting on its predecessor or other series to excuse its flaws. It's better to just say what you like about because that other approach never works to convince anyone that it's good or less bad in this case. Most fans move on from the flaws and only remember what they liked so the only thing achieved by constantly bringing up them up to make excuses is reminding people of them. If you look at any acclaimed series, film, video game, etc it's based on its own merits with no need to bring down another series to feel better about it.

There are plenty of series in the 80s and 90s that have been forgotten but DB and DBZ stood out enough and still remembered decades later. I don't think the same could be said about Super in comparison to modern anime. The production value of a few fight scenes is probably the only thing that's comparable. As an overall series, I've seen it more often compared to Boruto which makes sense because it's a similar kind of sequel.

[super michael]

What you fail to realize, though, is that by doing that, it shows you're desperate and desperately trying to find something, anything to make a point. You forget that there's a gap of twenty years between Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball Super. I won't be here saying how crap Dragon Ball is for having three tournaments, it's an 80s series, it is decades over. There's absolutely no point for me to judge it nowadays. There would be a point if Dragon Ball was being released today, and trust me, I'd be shitting all over it if it were doing the exact same things it did back in the 80s (especially with the whole Muten Roshi bullshit).

I think every average revival or sequel has someone shitting on its predecessor or other series to excuse its flaws. It's better to just say what you like about because that other approach never works to convince anyone that it's good or less bad in this case. Most fans move on from the flaws and only remember what they liked so the only thing achieved by constantly bringing up them up to make excuses is reminding people of them. If you look at any acclaimed series, film, video game, etc it's based on its own merits with no need to bring down another series to feel better about it.

There are plenty of series in the 80s and 90s that have been forgotten but DB and DBZ stood out enough and still remembered decades later. I don't think the same could be said about Super in comparison to modern anime. The production value of a few fight scenes is probably the only thing that's comparable. As an overall series, I've seen it more often compared to Boruto which makes sense because it's a similar kind of sequel.

I can accept DB/DBZ and DBS Manga flaws, because the amount of flaws are so little. While DBS Anime it can't be ignored since there are so many flaws.

There were many episode in DBS Anime that I found it annoying and a insult to the Dragon Ball IP. Many episode I used to think "again this happen", "again he does stupid thing", "this contradict Toriyama writing", "These characters not allowed to do anything again or kept secret", "Buu sleeping over and over and given more chance", etc.

Beerus in a costume, that was terrible what they did to Goku. The entire time he was dumb, he wasn't smart at all in that episode.

Fans like to see their favourite character fight, however Toei kept tricking the fans, they did it over and over.



Toei in DBZ era they used to do filler scenes and episode, so that characters who don't do anything in the manga they get to train and fight. This however Toei didn't do that in DBS Anime.

In DBS it lacks blood, which there was no excuse. Other anime has blood and even losing limbs and there is no problem.

[Zephyr]

I won't be here saying how crap Dragon Ball is for having three tournaments, it's an 80s series, it is decades over. There's absolutely no point for me to judge it nowadays. There would be a point if Dragon Ball was being released today, and trust me, I'd be shitting all over it if it were doing the exact same things it did back in the 80s (especially with the whole Muten Roshi bullshit).

You won't hate on Dragon Ball for having three tournaments.....because it's from the 80's? If you were there in the 80's as it was coming out, would you then be hating on it for having three tournaments? Your hatred for martial arts tournaments in a martial arts story always baffles me, but right now I'm more confused by your point that there's no reason to critique a story from the 80's. Is there no point in discussing an older part of this franchise simply because it's older? By that same line of thought, the Super anime is from last decade. It's over. What reason is there to keep talking about it? What difference does it make that something ended 30 years ago vs. 5 years ago? Where's the line to be drawn? Seems arbitrary.

It's true that merely saying "but the story did this before" isn't in itself a defense of something being done today, but that doesn't render it a wholly irrelevant point either. At a certain point, people are complaining about a work doing what it has always done, complaining about something simply being itself. This raises certain questions, like what expectations do you even have for the series, why do you have those expectations for the series in the first place, and is there sufficiently good reason for actually having those expectations?

[super michael]

I don't see anything wrong with Dragon Ball having a tournament. For starter Goku dream was to win the tournament, which he accomplished it on his 3rd tournament.

Goku lost his 1st tournament and then he lost his 2nd tournament. In his 3rd tournament he won the tournament.

In DBZ there was 4 tournament such as these:

Cell Game
Otherworld Tournament (filler)
Buu Saga Tournament
EOZ Tournament

In DBS there was 2 tournament. Both tournament Goku lost, but his teammate won for his universe.



DBS fails to be better than DB/DBZ in many ways.

[ZombieVito]

It's nice to see a comment that isn't incredibly angry about DBS existing. What makes you like it more than Z?

I just really liked the Zamasu and ToP arcs. Both are easily on my top 5 on favorite arcs.

Broly and Super Hero are also my favorite movies.

[super michael]

It's nice to see a comment that isn't incredibly angry about DBS existing. What makes you like it more than Z?

I just really liked the Zamasu and ToP arcs. Both are easily on my top 5 on favorite arcs.

Broly and Super Hero are also my favorite movies.

The Zamasu Saga was good, but why did they have to make Goku into a clown. He was dumb and forgetful.

The same applies to TOP, getting upset at C17 for using his brain. Goku letting his guard down so many time, one time his guard was so down he couldn't react at all.

DBS Super Heroes the short scenes Goku has, they make him look like a amateur and a clown. Doesn't know anything about meditation and its benefits.

DBS Broly Goku forgets the senzu bean. Doesn't bother using IT to go and get it and use IT to teleport back.

[Grimlock]

Conveniently you ignored the manga arcs.

Obviously. As you said, they're manga sagas.

The writers of Super chose to do that through a tournament, so this is a "mistake" because?

It shows lack of creativity and effort.

So I should find it impressive that there are cartoons that are more beautiful than Super? That's great, but now let's see if they have the popularity that Super had.

I see that you're trying hard to make a point with this but I can't figure out what it is. The subject was about animation but now you are moving the goalpost (heh, déjà vu, pretty sure we have been here before) to talk about popularity... I'll ask again, what does this have to do with anything?

There are plenty of series in the 80s and 90s that have been forgotten but DB and DBZ stood out enough and still remembered decades later. I don't think the same could be said about Super in comparison to modern anime.

I think Dragon Ball Super will be remembered decades from now, but like I said, not because of its own merits. Dragon Ball Super did nothing innovating to the industry like its predecessors did or added something to the table. Quite the contrary, actually. For example, prior to Dragon Ball, how many franchises do you know that used to age up their characters? I'm willing to bet most series have their characters stay the same from the beginning to the end. After Dragon Ball, many other franchises started to use timeskips and change the characters. Then enters Dragon Ball Super and retains the visual for the characters for as long as it could(n't). One of the most important aspects of Dragon Ball was neglected due to nostalgia. Like, if it wasn't Dragon Ball that started this trend, then at least it is certainly one of the main contributors for popularizing this concept.

It will be remembered because it was the first series after nearly twenty years of dormant, on top of carrying the already popular name "Dragon Ball" and for bathing in its success. But if we go by merits, what did it do? It didn't do anything to stand out among many other and better franchises out there.

You won't hate on Dragon Ball for having three tournaments.....because it's from the 80's?

I specifically and explicitly said "I won't be here saying", not "I won't be here hating"... Do I need to explain the difference?

If you were there in the 80's as it was coming out, would you then be hating on it for having three tournaments?

If I were there in the 80s, things would be different. Standards were different. Expectations were different. Times were different. Competition were different. I don't know if I would be liking or disliking the tournaments. I don't know if I would have better things to watch or if Dragon Ball would be the greatest thing to watch at that time. Well, there was Transformers (G1) coming out at the same time, but very much like Dragon Ball, it aged badly.

Your hatred for martial arts tournaments in a martial arts story always baffles me,

Why? Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT, both about martial arts stories, concluded without a single tournament (proving that Dragon Ball has more to offer than tournaments). Shouldn't you instead be baffled by the fact that two series about martial arts story doesn't have tournaments?

Is there no point in discussing an older part of this franchise simply because it's older? By that same line of thought, the Super anime is from last decade. It's over. What reason is there to keep talking about it? What difference does it make that something ended 30 years ago vs. 5 years ago? Where's the line to be drawn? Seems arbitrary.

Because Dragon Ball Super may have ended five years ago, but it still is very much a modern product. And in case I didn't make myself clear: it's bringing up older part of this franchise to justify them nowdays that is the problem.

[MasenkoHA]

Why? Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT, both about martial arts stories, concluded without a single tournament (proving that Dragon Ball has more to offer than tournaments). Shouldn't you instead be baffled by the fact that two series about martial arts story doesn't have tournaments?

Both Z and GT literally ended on a tournament. Z also had the Cell Games, which Cell even said were inspired by the Tenkaichi Budokai

And the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai is what properly kicks off the Boo saga. And if we throw in the movies, Z movie 9 is also built around a tournament.

And the one tournament episode in GT


But sure no tournaments

. And in case I didn't make myself clear: it's bringing up older part of this franchise to justify them nowdays that is the problem.

Who needs to justify anything? It's a martial arts series that has always done martial arts tournaments and characters using martial arts to save the world/universe against evil. For some bizarre nonsensical reason you seem to think only the latter is valid.

And it's not like Super did nothing but tournament arcs. Of the 5 story arcs only two of them were tournament arcs. The other 3 were the standard "save the universe from evil with martial arts" stories Toriyama locked himself into since the Saiyan arc

[super michael]

There is the Other World Tournament in DBZ, when Goku used Super Saiyan Kaioken.

[MasenkoHA]

There is the Other World Tournament in DBZ, when Goku used Super Saiyan Kaioken.

I forgot all about that one but yes that too

[ZombieVito]

The tournament critique never made sense to me. There are 4 in Dragon Ball if you count Baba's.

It's a fighting series, of course it will have tournaments.

[SupremeKai25]

The tournament critique never made sense to me. There are 4 in Dragon Ball if you count Baba's.

It's a fighting series, of course it will have tournaments.

And the entire series literally ends with a tournament. Tournaments have always been central to Dragon Ball, because it is a story about martial arts.

It is only logical, once you introduce a whole Multiverse, to have a grand tournament involving the other universes.

I still can't believe how the Tournament of Power was able to truly flesh-out all the other universes and give each of them a defining aesthetic, identity, and personality. Sure, some universes might have had fodder fighters (like U9 or U4), but they all stood out and had unique traits (including being weak and having to rely on tricks, like U4). It is truly incredible how much world-building the ToP arc had.

[super michael]

The tournament critique never made sense to me. There are 4 in Dragon Ball if you count Baba's.

It's a fighting series, of course it will have tournaments.

I forgot about the Baba Tournament. That tournament was to find the Dragon Ball, since Pilaf had it in a special containment box, which the Radar couldn't find.
Their main goal was to revive Upa dad.

In the other Tournament Goku goal was to win. It took 3 tournament, but he finally won the championship and the title.

Same here I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with tournaments.


DB/DBZ are older than DBS Anime, however DBS Anime is inferior in many ways than the older manga and anime. Toei does not understand why DB/DBZ came popular as it it.

I still find it funny that someone said DB/DBZ would get cancelled if it got released today, when DBS didn't get cancelled at all.