Do you like Super?

[super michael]

Other anime has tournaments and completion, I don't have any problem with those anime. The same applies for Dragon Ball.

A tournament is to see who is the strongest and who gets the title. That is every fighter dream. Goku had to fight in the tournament 3 times to achieve his goal.

Each of Goku failures meant that Goku learned a thing or two and focused on getting stronger. Goku training kept getting more and more intense, so in each tournament it was fun to see Goku skill and power growth.

In DBZ Goku looks like a master at martial arts, with plenty of wisdom, even if he is naive and let his pride get in the way.

In DBS Goku looks like a total amateur at time, who lacks experience and is downright dumb. The episode of Beerus in a costume was Goku being a total idiot, no intelligence at all. This contradicts DB/DBZ Goku growth.

Don't get me started in Goku Black Saga, he kept saying stupid things. Kept forgetting everything.
Forgot senzu bean, Urn and Talisman. Thinking eating senzu bean = immortality.


DB/DBZ Goku = gained experience, common sense, wisdom, expert in training and martial arts.

DBS Goku = lost many things that he gained in DB/DBZ. Sometime more dumb than his kid self.

DB/DBZ is like Ben 10 to Ben 10 Alien Force. Improvement in character.
DBS is like Ben 10 Omniverse or Ben 10 Reboot, ruining the character.

[Skar]

I've always liked tournaments so I didn't mind seeing more in DBS. I think it's a good way to have characters meet that otherwise would probably never run into each other and an antagonist that doesn't need to be a villain. The Z fighters never went to explore other planets in their own universe so it's unlikely they would be interested in the multiverse. Vegeta said he would like to visit Planet Sadala but that seemed more like a nice gesture since it's been a few years in-universe. If he was interested he could've asked Whis by now!

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I can’t ever bring myself to dislike Dragon Ball (Unless it’s Evolution), and most of the faults people point out also apply to the original series, but the series has seen better days.

[anubisj]

I abso-fuggin'-lutely despise Super.

Not only is it a lousy (pair of) product(s) on its own — copping cliché fanfic concepts for its story arcs, trying to pass off a parade of lazy recolors as new transformations, repeatedly attempting to alter past lore for no good reason, and generally devoid of any real creativity or soul — but the negative effect it's had on the fandom is the most depressing thing I've ever seen in the 20-ish years I've been a DB fan.

Enduring the toxic, extreme, and utterly misplaced obsession over "cAnOn" that's bubbled up in the wake of Super's existence and infests every other facet of the franchise is like being forced to wade through waist-high sewer sludge. If someone had tried to tell me a decade ago that someday Toriyama would do his own original take on Bardock that was worse in every conceivable way than the TV special, but then people would eagerly throw the latter away just because they didn't consider it part of the "mAiN sErIeS cOnTiNuItY" and pretended it never was... I'd have wondered what hard drugs they were currently on. And yet this whole modern-day farce of so-called "cAnOn," and the "that thing from before that you love is now meaningless" attitude that pervades it... is somehow based around a 20-years-removed spinoff that has two separate versions of itself.

Thankfully, that particular downside of Super's existence isn't very prominent here. But in some other DB communities, one can hardly initiate a conversation or ask a question about anything from half of the pre-2015 franchise without some knuckle-dragging chud popping in to say "tHaT's NoT cAnOn" as if that even friggin' means anything anymore.

I agree, many people disregard content from the franchise as not being canon, and want to swallow more character rehashes because they are finally "canonized", as if that meant something important. But to me the worst offenders areToriyama and company, who keep making "canon" stuff to further the confusion, many times "retconning" and remaking amazing stuff from the original anime trilogy, which is so wrong for so many reasons (we have already seen it, the original was really good already, it makes you have to choose between the two, etc). That was one of the main points people made when complaining about GT ("but it's not canon!" "It's not made by God-Toriyama!"), which I never really understood before, and now with Toriyama-lead Super, I give even less credit.

For me the important thing is the quality of the product, and, more recently with Dragon Ball, I'm practically begging at this point for some originality, too.

[MasenkoHA]

Snip

Agreed. A story is often more than just its plot.

The 21st Tenkaichi Budokai arc can be summed up as "Goku and Krillin train with Kame Sennin and then compete in their first tournament and then Kame Sennin enters disguised as Jackie Chun to keep them from winning"

But that ignores all the character stuff like Goku and Krillin becoming friends, Krillin going from a loud mouth weakling to a more confident martial artist who gets to defeat his former bullies and respectably place as a semi finalist in his first tournament, and Roshi confiding in Nam he doesn't want Goku and Krillin to win their first tournament at their young age because they'll have no incentive to improve (a big reason you can't just do one tournament arc in pre-Saiyan Dragon Ball)

[Zephyr]

Oh, a tedious line-by-line type response instead of just collecting your thoughts and making a more cohesive reply. Alright, I'll give you one.

But if you want me to say something, then here it is: Dragon Ball is a badly aged series. It did have three sagas with a plot (Pliaf saga, Red Ribbon saga and Piccolo Daimaoh saga), but it also had three tournaments. Not a good balance. In this scenario, it should've been just one tournament max. Also, the fact that Dragon Ball had three tournaments doesn't justify Dragon Ball Super having two in a row, in a total of three sagas. It's the epitome of unbalanced.

Satisfied?

Not really. Tournaments have plots. Dragon Ball Super did not have two tournaments in a row (there was that whole Zamasu/Goku Black thing you might remember). Saying things that are simply untrue isn't terribly satisfying or convincing, I'm sorry. You need to do more to explain what you mean by "a plot" and "story" and why a tournament is mutually exclusive with those. As it stands you're not communicating your thoughts very clearly.

That aside, no, "one tournament max" would not work. Goku has to lose one tournament in order for his eventual victory in a different tournament to land in a sufficiently satisfying way. You need two tournaments at minimum, because there has to be a struggle. Before victory comes failure.

I didn't. You really thought I would say Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT don't have tournaments without thinking that they feature glimpses of them? All of the "examples" they mentioned I had them in mind as I was typing it. Why do you think I still stand by what I said that these two series don't have tournaments? The level of naivety astounds me, but next time I'll leave a hint or something.

Well, you never made clear that you were making some distinction between "a tournament" and "a glimpse of a tournament". So, when you say "there were no tournaments" in a series where there were tournaments, it sure does sound like you think there were no tournaments despite there being tournaments. Which sure does make it sound like you have no idea what you're talking about because you'd never read or watched the thing you're talking about. Saying that you had no interest in discussing that lame old stuff sure didn't help the perception either. Maybe next time it would be cool if you would make more of an effort to clearly communicate your point instead of trying to cleverly dance around things and set up "gotcha" moments.

Five original sagas with a plot warrants a tournament. It would be a fine scenario. But that is not the case. Dragon Ball Super had two tournaments for just one saga with a plot. That's crap. It makes sense a martial arts story to have martial arts tournaments, it doesn't make sense for Dragon Ball to be all about tournaments. Dragon Ball is not about tournaments, it is but an aspect of it, not the crux of it. I hope you can tell the difference. Also, all those sagas feature martial arts, so do we really need tournaments? Are we really that desperate just to see fights?

Yes, of course Dragon Ball is not "about tournaments", and they are "but an aspect of it". That's why we don't see a tournament in every single story arc. But why is 5:1 the proper ratio? Why is 1:2 "crap" (ignoring that the actual ratio was 2:1 for the Champa arc, was 3:2 for the Tournament of Power, and is by this point 7:2)? I mean, I "know" "why", because "tournaments don't have plot/story", even though that's not true. Maybe you mean some really obscure and non-obvious thing by "plot" or "story" that you'll maybe reveal after another couple of back-and-forths. I can't say I'm waiting with bated breath.

it's just "a bunch of action figure fighting against each other", as someone else put it.

That critique can be lobbed at non-tournament arcs too, though. There can be interpersonal drama and world-ending stakes whether there's a tournament or not. There can be a lack of interpersonal drama and world-ending stakes whether there's a tournament or not. Trying to argue that tournaments are by their very nature devoid of this kind of stuff only further reinforces the (apparently false?) image of "I didn't actually read/watch Dragon Ball". Because these very sweeping generalizations about tournaments are shown to be false by simply reading/watching all of these tournaments and paying attention.

Some very off the cuff examples:
The 21st Tenkaichi Budokai helped us learn more about the Muten Roshi as a martial arts master (who doesn't want his students getting complacent); the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai showed real character development from Tenshinhan who went from wanting to get revenge for the death of Tao Pai Pai and breaking a defeated man's leg, to renouncing his master and demanding that he get a fair bout against Goku. The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai shows multiple shades of Goku, from the man who will stay true to a promise even though he didn't understand what it entailed (getting married) to the man who will let the demon spawn bent on world-domination get a free hit in because he wants a fair and true victory in the game.

And in the case of Dragon Ball Super, I disagree that there was "character progression".

You must have missed all of those moments with Freeza. Like that time Freeza donated energy to the Genki Dama. Or that time Freeza gave Goku some ki to restore his strength in a cleverly juxtaposed call-back to the opposite situation on Namek. Or that time Freeza teamed up with Goku to ring Geran out, leaving #17 as the one to get the wish with the Super Dragon Balls. The Freeza we met on Namek, the Freeza Trunks sliced in half, and the Freeza who turned gold and blew Earth up would not have done these things.

---

But yeah, I'm sorry. I can't handle this combination of having to repeat myself several times amidst exhausting line-by-line quoting, in an ostensible conversation with someone whose posts drip with an overly defensive snarky and combative tone, displays very poor communication skills, employs deliberately obtuse argumentation, and makes frequent use of blatantly false premises. When I was in my early/mid 20's and was inebriated all the time I used to thrill in meticulously poking every hole I could find in these kinds of posts, but I'm not and I don't anymore. Just a complete waste of time and patience. I still don't understand your poorly-reasoned and poorly-explained hatred of martial arts tournaments in a martial arts story, but at this point I'm past caring to.

Cheers!

Do you do what I do? You ask for a source of this "canon"? Either people get mad or they don't reply at all. A lot of idiotic claims are made in the fandom of Dragon Ball so I realized that "asking for a source" to be a great weapon against all that. If they don't provide, it means you're on the right side of the fence.

No, but I'll have to remember that.

It is true. Don't let anyone tell you that Dragon Ball SD and Dragon Ball Evolution are non-canon. They will be unable to provide you with a source corroborating the claim.

[Jack Bz]

Really enjoyed the manga until Toyo started coming up with the story concepts himself, and then it had a decline in quality with some great moments here and there. I loved how the U6 arc up until the tournament of power had a very natural progression and exploration of the wider god system. Now everything seems unrelated and contradictory to what came before without any awareness. It's hilarious that Toriyama came up with ultra instinct and then pretended it didn't exist in the new movies.

Anime was both a complete slog and hype as hell in equal measure. Would never ever watch it in full again but I've read the manga start to finish a few times. Nature of the medium is less time consuming though.

Both are better than GT and worse than DB and Z (except GT has my favourite soundtrack of any DB cartoon.)

I have found that I rarely, rarely enjoy Dragon Ball without Toriyama's involvement. Even though Toriyama has sadly made some stupid decisions with super. But without him I feel in absence in the comedy, unpredictable progression, and action choreography.

[Grimlock]

No, but I'll have to remember that.

I have presented my own twist on that before though. When people get uppity about Super being the "one true cAnOn sequel" I've often asked them, "when did Goku first use the Blue Kaio-Ken in the one, true, singular, nothing-else-is-real 'canon' storyline? Was it against Hit during the Champa arc, or against Geran during the Tournament of Power?"

The obvious point to the question being that two wildly different versions and placements of the same key event can't both be "canon" at the same time. It's like if the original DBZ anime rewrote the Saiyan arc to completely exclude the Spirit Bomb, and then later (re)introduced it by having Goku use it against Cell. So like you said, it usually just results in the other person stubbornly doubling down and insisting "both" anyway, ignoring how self-contradictory the notion is.

That's a very good point as well.

• Tarble gets repeatedly mentioned in the movies continuity, but no such thing has happened in either anime and manga. Is he cannon or not?

• Where did Bulma's birthday take place, at her house or on a boat? Maybe it happened at the same time, in different locations, right?

• Which form did Gotenks use against Beerus, base, Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 3?

The list goes on and on. Maybe for these people contradictory elements somehow make sense?

I don't know why you think "there is a tournament so there is no plot" they all have plots. Really simple plots but all of Dragon Ball is pretty simple plots.

Well, it's good that you, somehow, can find "plot" in the tournaments. And even better that you can enjoy yourself with them. I can't. I'm pretty sure at this point there's nothing else I can say that will make you understand why I can't, I already said a lot here and in the other thread. So if that's not enough, there's nothing else I can do.

The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc is ultimately just the "Evil villain wants to conquer the earth" story that you seem to think is the only valid kind of plot

If the anime was like this:

Future Trunks saga > Broly saga > Moro saga > Granolah saga > Super Hero saga.

I would have much less complaints if they throw in one tournament somewhere in there.

Universe 6 saga- Universe 6 and 7 have a tournament to see who gets to use the Super Dragon Balls

Damn, who's gonna get to use the Super Dragon Balls, I wonder!? Please Dende, let it be Universe 7, I don't want my Earth and my heroes to go to Universe 6, that would be the worst thing that can happen. May my Universe win this tournament!

ToP saga- The universes compete in a battle royale to be the last universe standing

Oh, so scary! I don't want Universe 7 and the heroes to get erased! Who's going to win!? Please, please! Universe 7 has to win this tournament, for the sake of all that is good. I'm so scared to lose these characters!

It's not that we need tournaments, its that your whole stance that their existence represents some sort of failure in the material is complete nonsense. Also let's break it down, for simplicity sake I'm ignoring GT and the retellings and the filler arcs and just focusing on the original Dragon Ball manga and the original Super plots

So out of 15 arcs only 5 of them use a tournament as a backdrop. At least 7 of them are "stop the most powerful evil foe" and that's being extremely courteous in not counting the Piccolo Jr arc, assuming Granaloh isn't one of them, and not counting the Beerus or Golden Freeza arcs.

Goddamn you shall be rewarded for all this attempt at defending Dragon Ball Super! I'll see to that that you earn something for this effort. Hell, you're putting more effort at justifying Dragon Ball Super than the creators put at making it! This is will not be forgotten, MasenkoHa.

Dragon Ball Super did not have two tournaments in a row (there was that whole Zamasu/Goku Black thing you might remember).

I remember, but Future Trunks saga didn't last long enough for the tournament fatigue to go away. That on top of Universe Survival saga lasting over a year. We have to use a magnifying glass to see Future Trunks saga sandwiched between two tournaments. So yeah, basically it was two tournaments in a row. Being overly specific about this won't change a thing.

You need to do more to explain what you mean by "a plot" and "story" and why a tournament is mutually exclusive with those. As it stands you're not communicating your thoughts very clearly.

I already did. Here and in the other thread. Like I said above, if nothing of what I said so far make you understand why I feel the way I feel, then I'm afraid there's nothing else for me to add.

It is true. Don't let anyone tell you that Dragon Ball SD and Dragon Ball Evolution are non-canon. They will be unable to provide you with a source corroborating the claim.

And you? Are you able to provide a source telling otherwise? Please do it, I would love to see what has been stated about the supposed canon of Dragon Ball.

[MasenkoHA]

Well, it's good that you, somehow, can find "plot" in the tournaments. And even better that you can enjoy yourself with them. I can't. I'm pretty sure at this point there's nothing else I can say that will make you understand why I can't, I already said a lot here and in the other thread. So if that's not enough, there's nothing else I can do.

Knowing what a plot is always helps.

Damn, who's gonna get to use the Super Dragon Balls, I wonder!? Please Dende, let it be Universe 7, I don't want my Earth and my heroes to go to Universe 6, that would be the worst thing that can happen. May my Universe win this tournament!


Oh, so scary! I don't want Universe 7 and the heroes to get erased! Who's going to win!? Please, please! Universe 7 has to win this tournament, for the sake of all that is good. I'm so scared to lose these characters!

Wait, so first you're arguing they have no plot and now you're arguing they're bad becaude we know the outcome? You know that literally applies to nearly every plot in Dragon Ball right? Did you really think Freeza was going to kill Goku and everyone else? Were you on the edge of your seat thinking Cell might kill Gohan and the others and blow up the earth? It's almost like stories are more than just the ending

Goddamn you shall be rewarded for all this attempt at defending Dragon Ball Super! I'll see to that that you earn something for this effort. Hell, you're putting more effort at justifying Dragon Ball Super than the creators put at making it! This is will not be forgotten, MasenkoHa.

.
I was talking about Dragon Ball as a whole but your reading comprehension is pretty suspect so...



.

[Grimlock]

I had go to check and the Zamasu arc is 21 episodes, significantly shorter than the Universal Survival Saga but by no means brief and when you put in all the filler and one and done plots between the Universe 6 arc and Universal Survival arc it was over 40. Zephyr isn't being overly specifc, you're just obtuse.

What "filler"? Isn't everything in Dragon Ball Super cannon!? I'm pretty sure that is what a lot of you say. Why is "filler" suddenly being used as an argument here and now? No, everything in Dragon Ball Super counts! It has Toriyama's involvement, therefore, everything is valid!11!1!!

And no, it wasn't over forty episodes if you consider everything. Unless you are right, I'm obtuse and Kanzenshuu is wrong?



Yes, Future Trunks is a brief saga. It's somewhere in the middle of a bunch of retellings and tournaments. It's very unfortunate that this saga stands out for default reasons, not for its merits (it has its flaws, sure, but still better than the other things they put out, definitely).


Edit: Ha! Too late, bro!

[Yuji]

I'm just glad Super isn't a complete borefest like GT was. It's an enjoyable sequel with some meat to its bones despite its faults.

[Koitsukai]

I'm here -in front of the TV watching a TV show- basically for the fights. That's the main thing I seek, entertainment and violence.
So, yes, I like it because DBS has outstanding fights, second only to DBZ and not that far from Z either, specially the last 20 episodes.
I couldn't compare it to DB because the nature of the fights are so different that it's just a matter of taste. But the fighting style of DBS, Z and GT, and SDBH is the same, and DBS excels in that much more so than GT and SDBH.
Fights in GT are boring enough to put me to sleep, if not piece me off (hi SS4 vs Super 17), SDBH fights make no sense whatosever from any standpoint, so DBS having interesting fights already checks my main box for liking a show.

After the initial hype of the fighting wears off and we move on to the other aspects of the show, things don't look that good. But is still entertaining for the most part, or at least when it gets good, it gets really good. And it has a lot of slice of life episodes one can just enjoy without yearning for blood and explosions. In this aspect, for me it also sits second to DBZ and might even give DB a run for its money.

However, I think it's way too lenghty, some arcs or pre-arcs seem to have no end. The ToP had at least 10 episodes that we could've lived without, the ToP recruitment as well. And the retellings had nice intentions, and funnily enough, the fights are the worse part of it. But one of those movies they were retelling was already horrible, so it was doomed from the start, the RoF arc. Not to mention the quality that took 30 episodes to improve.

I do not see as a valid argument the whole "it's a midquel, we know everybody survives because EoZ bla bla" whine. We know whose side is coming up on top every single time, we don't know who, though, or how. That's the fun part, to see HOW Goku beats Vegeta. How Michael Corleone takes over NY, how Superman beats Zod, how Thanos is defeated...
That argument is also pointless when the Zamasu arc exists.

[super michael]

I'm just glad Super isn't a complete borefest like GT was. It's an enjoyable sequel with some meat to its bones despite its faults.

For me DBS I found it's writing boring and annoying, Toei didn't understand what got fans interested in Dragon Ball in the first place. Some episode I was like "again this happen", "how many times are Toei going to do X things", "stop getting our hopes us for nothing to happen", etc.
They didn't know how to combine comedy and gag. Comedy in DBS was plain awful and went overboard.

Sure GT wasn't perfect, but it wasn't annoying. They didn't go overboard with gag and comedy. They understood fans like to see their favourite character fight and mature, something DBS Toei doesn't understand.

[Yuji]

I'm just glad Super isn't a complete borefest like GT was. It's an enjoyable sequel with some meat to its bones despite its faults.

For me DBS I found it's writing boring and annoying, Toei didn't understand what got fans interested in Dragon Ball in the first place. Some episode I was like "again this happen", "how many times are Toei going to do X things", "stop getting our hopes us for nothing to happen", etc.
They didn't know how to combine comedy and gag. Comedy in DBS was plain awful and went overboard.

Sure GT wasn't perfect, but it wasn't annoying. They didn't go overboard with gag and comedy. They understood fans like to see their favourite character fight and mature, something DBS Toei doesn't understand.

I think of Super as the manga but even the anime's pretty exceptional highs exceed the best GT had to offer.

[super michael]

I'm just glad Super isn't a complete borefest like GT was. It's an enjoyable sequel with some meat to its bones despite its faults.

For me DBS I found it's writing boring and annoying, Toei didn't understand what got fans interested in Dragon Ball in the first place. Some episode I was like "again this happen", "how many times are Toei going to do X things", "stop getting our hopes us for nothing to happen", etc.
They didn't know how to combine comedy and gag. Comedy in DBS was plain awful and went overboard.

Sure GT wasn't perfect, but it wasn't annoying. They didn't go overboard with gag and comedy. They understood fans like to see their favourite character fight and mature, something DBS Toei doesn't understand.

I think of Super as the manga but even the anime's pretty exceptional highs exceed the best GT had to offer.

I can agree to that. DBS Anime at its best exceeds GT at its best. DBS at it best I rank it 9/10.
However in consistency that is were GT shined. When it came to their lowest point, DBS was really bad.

DBS manga I don't have any problem, I enjoy it a lot. I rank it high in consistency and high and low points.

[Yuji]

For me DBS I found it's writing boring and annoying, Toei didn't understand what got fans interested in Dragon Ball in the first place. Some episode I was like "again this happen", "how many times are Toei going to do X things", "stop getting our hopes us for nothing to happen", etc.
They didn't know how to combine comedy and gag. Comedy in DBS was plain awful and went overboard.

Sure GT wasn't perfect, but it wasn't annoying. They didn't go overboard with gag and comedy. They understood fans like to see their favourite character fight and mature, something DBS Toei doesn't understand.

I think of Super as the manga but even the anime's pretty exceptional highs exceed the best GT had to offer.

I can agree to that. DBS Anime at its best exceeds GT at its best. DBS at it best I rank it 9/10.
However in consistency that is were GT shined. When it came to their lowest point, DBS was really bad.

DBS manga I don't have any problem, I enjoy it a lot. I rank it high in consistency and high and low points.

I can agree GT was perhaps more consistent, but that would be consistently mediocre. Still, I believe GT's lows, namely the Super 17 and Black Star DB arcs, are much more offensive than even the worst anime Super episodes.

[super michael]

I think of Super as the manga but even the anime's pretty exceptional highs exceed the best GT had to offer.

I can agree to that. DBS Anime at its best exceeds GT at its best. DBS at it best I rank it 9/10.
However in consistency that is were GT shined. When it came to their lowest point, DBS was really bad.

DBS manga I don't have any problem, I enjoy it a lot. I rank it high in consistency and high and low points.

I can agree GT was perhaps more consistent, but that would be consistently mediocre. Still, I believe GT's lows, namely the Super 17 and Black Star DB arcs, are much more offensive than even the worst anime Super episodes.

In GT they didn't have dedicated episode to Goku acting like a clown like in DBS. Chi Chi wasn't annoying in GT, while in DBS she was annoying and got in the way of the fights.

Goten and Trunks were not forbidden from joining any fight in GT, while in DBS Toei couldn't get enough of forbidding them and tricking its fans. The worst was when Goten wanted to train with Whis, only for that to not be allowed.


Some episode in DBS was annoying, due to how they were written.


In DBZ Toei did filler to include fighters that didn't do anything in the manga, they even extended some great battle to make them better.
In DBS Toei was a joke, they didn't care if it was annoying or ruined the characters in anyway.

[Shinsa]

I think GT and Super anime are equally bad but I think for me I'd rather watch GT.....because its shorter... lol

jokes aside, GT can be a sloge to watch since it has bad pacing but I much prefer the lore and concepts introduced in that show as well as moving the narrative and characters forward in time. Oh and the GT intro is simply the best, DAN DAN Kokoro Hikareteku makes it worth it for me haha.

Super doesn't do much for me, none of the characters go through anything meaningful or justifiable as well as I don't like any of the new transformations. Ultra Instinct is neat but under baked, I don't read the manga so I stand to be corrected but I've seen images of Ultra Ego and I can't say I'm impressed.

With all that said tho....I would watch the Super movies over GT....again because its a shorter experience lol.
I'd have to suffer through Battle of gods and Resurrection F but I find Broly and Super Hero very fun to watch with some laughs here for there. If I turn off my brain to the lore and treat them as self contained pieces of media, I'd watch those over GT any day.

Honestly my memory can be hazy on which is better. The last time I watched GT was probably 10+ years ago and for Super when they were released on bluray a few years back. It would be interesting to watch them back to back to compare....but I don't think my mind or body can handle that lol. With all my complaining I still hold the original DB/DBZ anime and manga on a pedestal. I usually watch or read it with a few of the DBZ movies sprinkled in once a year!

[Jord]

I can agree to that. DBS Anime at its best exceeds GT at its best. DBS at it best I rank it 9/10.
However in consistency that is were GT shined. When it came to their lowest point, DBS was really bad.

DBS manga I don't have any problem, I enjoy it a lot. I rank it high in consistency and high and low points.

I can agree GT was perhaps more consistent, but that would be consistently mediocre. Still, I believe GT's lows, namely the Super 17 and Black Star DB arcs, are much more offensive than even the worst anime Super episodes.

In GT they didn't have dedicated episode to Goku acting like a clown like in DBS. Chi Chi wasn't annoying in GT, while in DBS she was annoying and got in the way of the fights.

Goten and Trunks were not forbidden from joining any fight in GT, while in DBS Toei couldn't get enough of forbidding them and tricking its fans. The worst was when Goten wanted to train with Whis, only for that to not be allowed.

Same goes for Buu, who was one of the strongest good guys by then. Plus, he has al those creative, unusual powers. Would be interesting see him join the majority of fights. That was actually one of the things I looked forward too. He got recruited for the fight against the wolf brothers and looked awesome in it. Then, he got written out for the TOP and we get nostalgia jobbers like Tenshinhan and Roshi instead of him. If you want the strongest fighters and trade Buu for Roshi, you're doing something wrong.

Terrible how they've written both him and Goten/Trunks out for nostalgia.